I asked them a simple question?

Ruwr · February 2

Hi, i've been trying to get an answer out of digital extremes now for quite a long time, their support desk just doesnt respond to my ticket, very much on purpose because other tickets get a WAY faster response time.

I'm trying to figure out what their statement is on a clan hosting a fashionframe event and then handing out rewards.
The rules are very vague about it if you lay it next to what is actually happening.

What is the rule, because in black and white Nobody is allowed to ever give Anyone Anything, or risk being banned for RWT.
That is if you take it literal.

They also state that fashionframe contests will be hosted by them, and the rewards will be some goofy code for stuff you probably dont want.

In reality: I see tons of people hosting them, reddit, forums, etc etc.
They all traded their rewards

So can someone, for the love of whatever you find holy.
just make a RULE

that isnt a vague suggestion that could lead to you having fun and waking up to a banned account the next morning.

Can you?

Because quite frankly, i dont trust a company that will cancel/remove/suspend/silence you for your opinions.
The chance that you get banned because mr mod inpection had a bad day is way too high, and quite frankly... Not worth the headache in advance.

trst · February 2

If you're concerned and want to be as safe as possible then don't make the reward direct platinum and make it a market gift. Something like rewarding anything off the market up to X total platinum. Or something like farming/buying some prime sets to give away as rewards.

As for the issue itself you probably won't get a clear answer as DE doesn't like to give out specifics to things like that. If they did then those who do engage in RMT would use that information to skirt around the rules.

Edited February 2 by trst

(PSN)slightconfuzzled · February 2

So generally, if a rule seems vague, or more complicated and grey than one might think it needs to be, it can be because of a few reasons. For example, I just deleted a part of my own sentence, and then went back to reframe it and rephrase it, because I thought of a specific reason why rules/statements are phrased and framed a certain way, only to remember that there can be other reasons... so claiming so specifically they exist for a specific sole reason... would be inaccurate, and that inaccuracy could lead to various other issues.

So, I rephrased and reframed my sentences to allow for more examples, which can create ambiguity and vagueness, but I also do not want to sit here and think of all the possible examples, and how they might overlap with each other, with other rules/statements, which may not necessarily seem related, but are because of one or two shared variables.

So someone like me, with above, I used a lot of qualifiers. Often qualifiers can be used for contextual reasons. Like if something is more complicated than you might wish to describe in detail, you can use a qualifier to interject a quality that introduces a little bit of implied context that might be misunderstood if you didn't include it. In theory, this should actually save time/be more efficient depending on the context. As opposed to trying to be super literal, and black and white, and having to list all all reasons, and examples, with various exclaimers, exceptions, and additional details, that would be applicable (which to be clear, often is included, or at least seems to be, depending on the rules/agreements, which why many are so long/small text).

For some, this can be frustrating because its just adding confusing, unnecessary information complicating or obfuscating something. For others it can be beneficial, because whilst the latter can be accurate, sometimes giving more context clues can help decipher or assist in a situation. Its why many fields with trained experts with years of experience, study or learning, develop their own specific and nuanced terminology/jargon. Think about medical professionals discussing a complicated type of surgery. You don't really question it necessarily, if they use a lot of terms or language you don't understand, because you can understand that to them, its important.

Legalese is a bit similar. Just we often tend to see more of the benefits of surgeons doing heart surgery than lawyers defending big businesses.

Could you cite the specific section of the rules you are referring to? What you may find vague, may not necessarily be vague to someone else. Or it could too, but they might read into the context differently. The reason why there likely isn't a simple rule, is because such things may not be simple, if they involve or overlap with other types of potential interactions. As a general rule of thumb though, if you are dubious towards an organisations/companies methodologies, behaviour, actions or inactions, then well sure, but now you are going down a different route of questioning.

Recently in the Youtube Warframe community scene, there was a creator that made a video criticising DE for the vagueness of the EULA, and how corrupted moderators and DE could be, but many of their listed examples were incredibly flawed and naive, and their own points and arguments were inconsistent, and flawed. That they themselves were banned from the game for violating EULA for promoting and being sponsored and paid by a boosting website that is strictly against EULA, probably meant they were frustrated at being banned, and wanting to vent a bit, rather than coming from a sincere place of objective criticism. There are sincere issues than can come about because of the nature of legalese, but we shouldn't conflate that with peoples frustrations, skepticisms around shady behaviour, power abuse, or a misunderstanding as to why legalese exists in general. (The creator I mentioned ending up apologising and deleting their original video. I am not just accusing them of things randomly, they also talked about how their points/arguments were flawed)

Anyway, like i mentioned earlier, if you can give me a reference to the rules you are referring to, I might be able to give input on that. You could also search around to larger content creators that do similar, as far as contests and giveaways and send them a DM asking for some guidance on the matter. If I had to guess why Support takes longer on this issue, is A. They may not consider it a priority, and then B. They may pass on that ticket, because they might not be as knowledgable or know how to give a simple answer and another Support member might/should, but then that also means, its a topic that may take longer to get to. Like website Support team members aren't necessarily the same people who write the rules, and that side of things can be complicated as well, as far as interpretation and asking around for info on certain topics. Potentially. I don't know anything about DE's support structure, hence being general and vague.

Hobie-wan · February 2

Unless you're asking for people to Paypal/Cashapp/whatever you some money to enter the contest (or even in game items) and then giving prizes out after just to winners, there is no Real World/Money Transaction and it shouldn't be a problem. As long as it is just "Hey, come on down just for funsies and maybe you'll win something" then it's fine.

13 hours ago, Ruwr said:

Because quite frankly, i dont trust a company that will cancel/remove/suspend/silence you for your opinions.

Then I suggest you get off the internet, never enter a store or business, and never go into anyone else's house. If you're in someone else's space and they don't like your behavior, they have the right to ask you to leave, just as you would of someone in your space.

Aruquae · February 6

On 2024-02-02 at 1:44 AM, Ruwr said:

I'm trying to figure out what their statement is on a clan hosting a fashionframe event and then handing out rewards.
The rules are very vague about it if you lay it next to what is actually happening.

Oh hey it’s you again. Heyo!

You can hand out rewards for a clan fashion frame event… just don’t trade platinum as a reward. I can see gifting an item, or even just a mod. I personally gave out sculptures because the people who used to be in my clan loved fashion with sculptures.

Ruwr · February 17

On 2024-02-02 at 8:47 PM, Hobie-wan said:

Unless you're asking for people to Paypal/Cashapp/whatever you some money to enter the contest (or even in game items) and then giving prizes out after just to winners, there is no Real World/Money Transaction and it shouldn't be a problem. As long as it is just "Hey, come on down just for funsies and maybe you'll win something" then it's fine.

Then I suggest you get off the internet, never enter a store or business, and never go into anyone else's house. If you're in someone else's space and they don't like your behavior, they have the right to ask you to leave, just as you would of someone in your space.

What a belligerent and dumb message
Theyre selling a service, they want customers.
Customers have questions, they provide answers

I suggest you leave my area permanently with your 'you should leave the internet' quotes.
Companies wont just outright throw away customers that are lippy, they bring in money :) You clearly dont understand how that works.

Just because you own something that provides a public service doesn't mean you should contract a god-complex and flex your self induced superiority because you're having a bad day, or dont see eye to eye with someone, and if you are an advocate of that i have all the reasons to think you're the problem.

Edited February 17 by Ruwr

Ruwr · February 17

The only correct answer was:

Hey there,

And thank you for your patience. You can occasionally have small events for your Clan - in those case please provide us through a ticket the following information:

Date of the event, and when the prizes were distributed
Who gave the prizes (please list the players if there were several of them)
Names of the players receiving the prizes
List of the prizes being given away

Thanks for your cooperation!

Regards,
Warframe Support.

Any other answer clearly proves my point that warframe does not know what the flip they are doing communicating towards their playerbase.
If you read the rules you will conclude you are in the wrong for these actions.

You have to get in touch with DE to organise these events to Exlude the chances of you getting banned and not being flagged as RMT

Nowhere does it mention that.

This is just one problem.
The next problem is the use of macros and 3rd party programs, Honestly [DE]Juice, the message you posted at the 1st of february just creates more confusion.

'' Do so at your own risk '' Implies
'' We make emotional choices and aren't consequent ''

bring out a list of accepted 3rd party programs, thats the only way.
Gray areas shouldn't exist in a RULE BOOK
Its a RULE not a PRIVILEGE

Edited February 17 by Ruwr

Ruwr · February 17

On 2024-02-02 at 9:15 AM, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

So generally, if a rule seems vague, or more complicated and grey than one might think it needs to be, it can be because of a few reasons. For example, I just deleted a part of my own sentence, and then went back to reframe it and rephrase it, because I thought of a specific reason why rules/statements are phrased and framed a certain way, only to remember that there can be other reasons... so claiming so specifically they exist for a specific sole reason... would be inaccurate, and that inaccuracy could lead to various other issues.

So, I rephrased and reframed my sentences to allow for more examples, which can create ambiguity and vagueness, but I also do not want to sit here and think of all the possible examples, and how they might overlap with each other, with other rules/statements, which may not necessarily seem related, but are because of one or two shared variables.

So someone like me, with above, I used a lot of qualifiers. Often qualifiers can be used for contextual reasons. Like if something is more complicated than you might wish to describe in detail, you can use a qualifier to interject a quality that introduces a little bit of implied context that might be misunderstood if you didn't include it. In theory, this should actually save time/be more efficient depending on the context. As opposed to trying to be super literal, and black and white, and having to list all all reasons, and examples, with various exclaimers, exceptions, and additional details, that would be applicable (which to be clear, often is included, or at least seems to be, depending on the rules/agreements, which why many are so long/small text).

For some, this can be frustrating because its just adding confusing, unnecessary information complicating or obfuscating something. For others it can be beneficial, because whilst the latter can be accurate, sometimes giving more context clues can help decipher or assist in a situation. Its why many fields with trained experts with years of experience, study or learning, develop their own specific and nuanced terminology/jargon. Think about medical professionals discussing a complicated type of surgery. You don't really question it necessarily, if they use a lot of terms or language you don't understand, because you can understand that to them, its important.

Legalese is a bit similar. Just we often tend to see more of the benefits of surgeons doing heart surgery than lawyers defending big businesses.

Could you cite the specific section of the rules you are referring to? What you may find vague, may not necessarily be vague to someone else. Or it could too, but they might read into the context differently. The reason why there likely isn't a simple rule, is because such things may not be simple, if they involve or overlap with other types of potential interactions. As a general rule of thumb though, if you are dubious towards an organisations/companies methodologies, behaviour, actions or inactions, then well sure, but now you are going down a different route of questioning.

Recently in the Youtube Warframe community scene, there was a creator that made a video criticising DE for the vagueness of the EULA, and how corrupted moderators and DE could be, but many of their listed examples were incredibly flawed and naive, and their own points and arguments were inconsistent, and flawed. That they themselves were banned from the game for violating EULA for promoting and being sponsored and paid by a boosting website that is strictly against EULA, probably meant they were frustrated at being banned, and wanting to vent a bit, rather than coming from a sincere place of objective criticism. There are sincere issues than can come about because of the nature of legalese, but we shouldn't conflate that with peoples frustrations, skepticisms around shady behaviour, power abuse, or a misunderstanding as to why legalese exists in general. (The creator I mentioned ending up apologising and deleting their original video. I am not just accusing them of things randomly, they also talked about how their points/arguments were flawed)

Anyway, like i mentioned earlier, if you can give me a reference to the rules you are referring to, I might be able to give input on that. You could also search around to larger content creators that do similar, as far as contests and giveaways and send them a DM asking for some guidance on the matter. If I had to guess why Support takes longer on this issue, is A. They may not consider it a priority, and then B. They may pass on that ticket, because they might not be as knowledgable or know how to give a simple answer and another Support member might/should, but then that also means, its a topic that may take longer to get to. Like website Support team members aren't necessarily the same people who write the rules, and that side of things can be complicated as well, as far as interpretation and asking around for info on certain topics. Potentially. I don't know anything about DE's support structure, hence being general and vague.

Q: Can I create contests with giveaway prizes that are awarded via Trading?

Please do not do this. While your intent may be innocent, if your contest will rely on the Warframe Trading or Gifting systems to send items or Platinum to players directly we must HIGHLY discourage this. This is not the intent of these systems and there is little to differentiate this sort of contest from possible fraudulent or illegitimate transactions between parties.

Contests from the Warframe Community team (Dev Streams, Prime Time, etc), Fansites, and partners will use the code redemption system and are the only sanctioned method of conducting a contest with players. Digital Extremes does not offer support for unsanctioned giveaways or contests.

There you go.
100% contradictory to what they actually enforce.

I hope you understand my frustrations now ^-^

Edited February 17 by Ruwr

(PSN)slightconfuzzled · February 17

7 hours ago, Ruwr said:

There you go.
100% contradictory to what they actually enforce.

I hope you understand my frustrations now ^-^

I always understood your frustrations and sympathise, but thats not the same as not understanding the nature of questions and answers and potential complications that can arise. Like think about how people use formal and informal language. Think about technical language thats attempting to be accurate and precise, versus more casual. When you say "100% contradictory", what do you actually mean? Think about the use of the term "highly discourage" compare this to a statement like, "never permitted".

Lets say hypothetically, you know of two situations, where a fairly high profile Warframe content creator gifted Warframe skins to some friends or viewers after a contest of some sort, a giveaway etc. You take the issue to DE, after citing such a rule, what do you expect them to do? Do you expect them to treat all cases and situations the same, or to use their discretion to deal with the situation on their own terms? Its usually going to be the latter.

Which may be frustrating or hard to understand for someone who might prefer a simple or consistent rule, but thats just the reality of such situations.

Which is why again, if you know or have examples of people on Reddit or the Forums hosting them "In reality: I see tons of people hosting them, reddit, forums, etc etc. They all traded their rewards" then message them and take advice. Usually rules, guidelines, etc aren't meant to be taken at their most literal, but as a general basis to explain conditions which may involve variables, where discretion can be applied for certain intended effects. Having to monitor and enforce trades for example, around "he said/she said" situations, is very tough. If they got a bunch of players constantly sending in support tickets, how via Gmail voice call, xXWarframeLady69Xx promised to give them 10 000 Platinum for the winner of the biggest IRL Codpiece Contest, but she didn't and now xXWarframeLady69Xx has private photos of all their privates and using that to blackmail them and they want Warframe to deal with it, since they also had to give her 100 Plat in trade menu to enter the contest in the first place so they got scammed...DE is obviously not going to want to get involved with such drama that would be hard to get all the details of. So generalised rules exist to preemptively address all sorts and manners of exchanges, including deception, which can be really hard to pin down objectively. Especially if there is communication outside the game, nature of promise types deals, or exchanges in services or items of value, including entertainment, publicity so on.

So then you have to ask, are there exceptions? Are they exceptions because DE knows, and passively allows it, or they don't know, and it hasn't been brought to their attention, or some combination. Why are the exceptions exceptions? Could be nice if there was more concrete writing as far as rules/guidelines, for more transparency, maybe there are, but I haven't looked into it. Could also just be a matter of discretion on DE's part.

Edited February 17 by (PSN)slightconfuzzled
Formatting

Ruwr · February 17

7 hours ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

I always understood your frustrations and sympathise, but thats not the same as not understanding the nature of questions and answers and potential complications that can arise. Like think about how people use formal and informal language. Think about technical language thats attempting to be accurate and precise, versus more casual. When you say "100% contradictory", what do you actually mean? Think about the use of the term "highly discourage" compare this to a statement like, "never permitted".

Lets say hypothetically, you know of two situations, where a fairly high profile Warframe content creator gifted Warframe skins to some friends or viewers after a contest of some sort, a giveaway etc. You take the issue to DE, after citing such a rule, what do you expect them to do? Do you expect them to treat all cases and situations the same, or to use their discretion to deal with the situation on their own terms? Its usually going to be the latter.

Which may be frustrating or hard to understand for someone who might prefer a simple or consistent rule, but thats just the reality of such situations.

Which is why again, if you know or have examples of people on Reddit or the Forums hosting them "In reality: I see tons of people hosting them, reddit, forums, etc etc. They all traded their rewards" then message them and take advice. Usually rules, guidelines, etc aren't meant to be taken at their most literal, but as a general basis to explain conditions which may involve variables, where discretion can be applied for certain intended effects. Having to monitor and enforce trades for example, around "he said/she said" situations, is very tough. If they got a bunch of players constantly sending in support tickets, how via Gmail voice call, xXWarframeLady69Xx promised to give them 10 000 Platinum for the winner of the biggest IRL Codpiece Contest, but she didn't and now xXWarframeLady69Xx has private photos of all their privates and using that to blackmail them and they want Warframe to deal with it, since they also had to give her 100 Plat in trade menu to enter the contest in the first place so they got scammed...DE is obviously not going to want to get involved with such drama that would be hard to get all the details of. So generalised rules exist to preemptively address all sorts and manners of exchanges, including deception, which can be really hard to pin down objectively. Especially if there is communication outside the game, nature of promise types deals, or exchanges in services or items of value, including entertainment, publicity so on.

So then you have to ask, are there exceptions? Are they exceptions because DE knows, and passively allows it, or they don't know, and it hasn't been brought to their attention, or some combination. Why are the exceptions exceptions? Could be nice if there was more concrete writing as far as rules/guidelines, for more transparency, maybe there are, but I haven't looked into it. Could also just be a matter of discretion on DE's part.

--First things first: I've gotten my answer from D.E and it was contradictory, so i moved that to another thread where i also talk about their vague announcement of macro's / 3 rd party program use, which is argumentatively just as badly worded as this rule.--

If they Highly discourage something in their rules, and i then make a ticket and one of their employees does the exact opposite of disencourage it.
Thats what i mean.

If D.E with their reputation of removing you from the community if you rub the left politics the wrong way 'highly discourages' something its a pretty damn clear language. (For me personally i've gotten removed from the community for asking when we will appeal to the majority instead of the minorial group of toxic loud people)

Why do i have to trust in the unknown? Isn't that the exact thing humans fear?
And the unknown would be the state of my account after every event if i dont report it.

So why work with 2000000 exceptions, if you can just announce that this is allowed.
Man i wouldn't even mind if they specified platinum numbers, or a certain frequency in which it may occur.

You're pulling up an example of internet prostitution, and im almost certain were talking about a legal case here, however i do understand your concern with these one in a hundred thousand scenario's.. they should be the exception..
Not the entire rulebook.

Those people should waste customers services time, Not everyone that wants to host an event.

The good dont have to suffer under the bad, if leadership is correct.

you also pose me this question.

''what do you expect them to do? Do you expect them to treat all cases and situations the same, or to use their discretion to deal with the situation on their own terms? Its usually going to be the latter. ,,

Neither of these are applicable at the moment because anyone that doesnt go through lengths of getting an answer out of DE itself will be kept in the gray area of 'Maybe you do Maybe you dont'
And thats what my argument is about, nowhere does it mention you can announce your event and its fine.
You get discouraged and spat in the face if you take the rulebook literal.

The communication goes two ways now, you get encouraged on one side, and discouraged in the rules... Its a full on contridiction.
And that, in my opinion.. Isn't too much asked to be clarified since were talking about big accounts that host these events.
Its not like we just started playing.

--- i just got off steam and i hear sounds like these, which doesn't really give me the feeling i want, but does support my cause in that i will and cannot trust a company to make emotional decisions and treat things Case-By-Case.
You need black and white rules, humans are too incompetent to judge something on face value every time, regardless of who it is.

It took them longer than a week to figure out my question to them 'Can i host an event', i know how that went, it doesnt take them that long to reach my support ticket, it took them that long to get a straight answer from their own company.
And they should just touch on that, theres many more things.. but this is a good first.

Aaron

9 minutes ago

Originally posted by bach_mute:
Got permabanned for my mistake & I'm curious if I'll ever be able to play the game again? I tried to create new account & it didn't work for me. I guess, it is ban with IP/PC completely :Burn:

I guess depends on why you got perma-banned but i wouldn't get hopes high. If they hardware-ID ban theres way around that (but i think you need to reinstall OS and or do something in the BIOS but im not sure, never did that but i know you can do that theres some tutorials on youtube etc)

From what i have read here in the Community Discussions it seems that they are unfortunately very ban happy

Edited February 17 by Ruwr

(PSN)slightconfuzzled · February 17

48 minutes ago, Ruwr said:

--First things first: I've gotten my answer from D.E and it was contradictory, so i moved that to another thread where i also talk about their vague announcement of macro's / 3 rd party program use, which is argumentatively just as badly worded as this rule.-- If they Highly discourage something in their rules, and i then make a ticket and one of their employees does the exact opposite of disencourage it.
Thats what i mean.

If D.E with their reputation of removing you from the community if you rub the left politics the wrong way 'highly discourages' something its a pretty damn clear language. (For me personally i've gotten removed from the community for asking when we will appeal to the majority instead of the minorial group of toxic loud people) Why do i have to trust in the unknown? Isn't that the exact thing humans fear?
And the unknown would be the state of my account after every event if i dont report it.

So why work with 2000000 exceptions, if you can just announce that this is allowed. Man i wouldn't even mind if they specified platinum numbers, or a certain frequency in which it may occur. You're pulling up an example of internet prostitution, and im almost certain were talking about a legal case here, however i do understand your concern with these one in a hundred thousand scenario's.. they should be the exception..
Not the entire rulebook. Those people should waste customers services time, Not everyone that wants to host an event.

The good dont have to suffer under the bad, if leadership is correct. you also pose me this question. 'what do you expect them to do? Do you expect them to treat all cases and situations the same, or to use their discretion to deal with the situation on their own terms? Its usually going to be the latter. ,,

Neither of these are applicable at the moment because anyone that doesnt go through lengths of getting an answer out of DE itself will be kept in the gray area of Maybe you do Maybe you dont' And thats what my argument is about, nowhere does it mention you can announce your event and its fine.
You get discouraged and spat in the face if you take the rulebook literal. The communication goes two ways now, you get encouraged on one side, and discouraged in the rules... Its a full on contridiction. And that, in my opinion.. Isn't too much asked to be clarified since were talking about big accounts that host these events.
Its not like we just started playing.

--- i just got off steam and i hear sounds like these, which doesn't really give me the feeling i want, but does support my cause in that i will and cannot trust a company to make emotional decisions and treat things Case-By-Case.
You need black and white rules, humans are too incompetent to judge something on face value every time, regardless of who it is.

It took them longer than a week to figure out my question to them 'Can i host an event', i know how that went, it doesnt take them that long to reach my support ticket, it took them that long to get a straight answer from their own company. And they should just touch on that, theres many more things.. but this is a good first.

Contradictory to you, or contradictory to DE? I don't mean that in a disparaging way, but a person believing something to be contradictory (more in the sense of negating each other or being mutually exclusive), doesn't always mean its objectively contradictory. It can be, but this is where interpretation and other variables come into play, like power dynamics. Likewise claims about rules being badly worded. Sure, wording of rules can be bad, and its something I am personally often critical of, but so can interpretation and comprehension. I also don't mean the latter in an insulting way or claiming its happening here wth you, either to be clear. Since I believe in certain situations, its one parties responsibility, usually the party in power/authority to provide, clear and well phrased and framed guidelines and rules. Not all agreements, rules, and the like should require much by way of people attempting to understand them. Regardless...

I can only talk on what info I am given. So I don't know what this other DE employee told you, or why it makes what they said, contradictory to what you interpreted by the rule you cited. Thats what I mean. This is the internet, we are random anonymous strangers. Its really easy to make claims and try to argue with persistence, use exaggeration, fall to frustration, expect strangers to just take our word, and get skeptical and defensive towards others. I am not saying that what they said, wasn't contradictory, just that nothing you have shown so far proves they are so far. Maybe, you give me a screenshot of what the DE support person said, and it includes something that is completely contradictory, but... also given the rule you cited is pretty ambiguous by design, eh... Again though, I don't know what they said, maybe they said up is down and up is up and Warframe stopped receiving updates in 2020, and will never get them again. So stay tuned for the next update in April.

You mean DE with their reputation of blowing up the Moon and kicking small puppies with one leg, into the ocean? That DE? Look, if you want to colour your own perceptions, based on your own subjective view of DE and what that means, thats totally valid and I don't personally care, but as far as language and communication goes, your personally issues with DE, don't make it so legalese written a certain way with rules, guidelines, agreements, contracts so on, aren't framed to give the rule setters, discretionary power, the ability to pick and chose when and how to interpret and enforce said rules, guidelines, agreements and so on (unless you involve other types of power structures and certain other parts of the aforementioned if its dealing with the other parties rights, but usually and hence such rules, guidelines, being written in such a way to be favourable to those creating and enforcing them). Highly discouraged therefore is pretty deliberate, when they could just say not permitted. Its the same way, they might say playing Warframe, in one mission for 48 hours straight is highly discouraged, citing more of a "common sense" reason around health, mental health aspects, and the potential for AFK strategies, because of the lack of sleep, eating, etc, but they might not have a hard technical rule insisting you can't.

You don't have to trust in the unknown. If you think there are some people who are engaging in behaviour you think is against what DE wants, you can ask them to confirm they are doing what you claim, and if you wanted to, you could ask them if DE takes issue with them, or if they are aware of your interpretation of what DE guidelines are. Depending on how they answer, you can go from there. You also don't have to ask them, you could also draw your own conclusions. You can question your own interpretation. As an example. DE guidelines and rules, says you can't trade for favours. I have a friend, who I know in real life, and i trust completely. I fixed his car the other day, and he decided to give me a Riven. Do I now need to be paranoid that DE will ban me for trading favours? Or... is that rule more for randoms in the trade chat, acting shady?

A few weeks ago, a Youtube content creator got banned for account boosting amongst other issues. One of their reactions was to be like "I got banned because of the EULA, but this other content creator has made lewd art, on some other website, and therefore they should also be banned according to the EULA!", but thats just a flawed understanding and that person had very minimal comprehension and understanding around the EULA, why and how its written, caveats, and so on.

I mean, you can use an example like "why work with 2000000 exceptions" but, I say, why work with infinite squared by infinite exceptions, so many exceptions that everything collapses into a black hole rending everything meaningless. Naturally the way it is, is already favourable and convenient to them. I understand the appeal of say wanting them to have more details like specified numbers, but it may be more complicated than that. They might prefer being vague. It may be dependent on other conditions. Maybe its more about the presence of something shady in the details thats more important. To them, often more details, can mean giving opportunities for people to try to push limits in bad faith, or to try and manipulate systems. Not necessarily though, depends. Again, complicated.

I'm just using a silly example, where the situation is definitively a scam, with bad faith players involved, where people were scammed, but they really shouldn't have been, and they should have used a bit of self awareness and restraint. To contrast with a far more innocent possible scenario, of some people just having a fashion contest and some of them getting some gifted Forma. One is probably the reason the rules exist, and the other much less so. We shouldn't be confused or conflate the two. Its all the middle examples that some people might struggle with.

Its just the rulebook because by default, its more convenient for them that way. Exceptions they can deal with via support.

You can frame your ideology as you wish, I might not necessarily disagree. Just I also won't necessarily think that talking about the good not need suffer under the bad is necessarily relevant to an individuals ability to discern and claim whether something is contradictory.

Are you sure you aren't just personally using your own interpretation of the rules, to paint the idea this is a larger objective issue, thats more generalised, when it may simply just be your personal interpretation is flawed? You are the one making the claim about how all these other people do it, but maybe tits just that their interpretation of the guideline and rules is better than yours? Maybe you are making a mountain out of a mole hill? I am genuinely not claiming that my word is law, and all these questions are facts, maybe, your interpretation is the most accurate, and if you did what others did exactly, DE would ban you, but not them, because you specifically rubbed their politics the wrong way. Sure. Its a bit of a self defeating approach though, because anyone and everyone can claim that for everything.

Its also odd, because on one hand you will talk about the rulebook, thats not meant to be taken literally, but in the same sentence talk about being spat in the face. Not literally though right? Its like you use emotive terminology to emphasise their treatment of you being poor and negative, but frame your own perspectives and points as if they are objective.

Yes ideally communication should go both ways. Except I think I am being pretty attentive to your points and ideas, but several of mine you haven't really, as shown by the most recent example of approaches to guidelines. Or my point about power structures and convenience and how that influences writing styles and the framing of such rules, and guidelines. DE in such interactions holds more power and authority as it is their game. We do get certain rights and a type of power as a consumer, but overall the power balance is in their favour, under most countries laws (well depending on specifics, its complicated). Its also why understanding such framing and wording well, as consumers/players is valuable, as opposed to just kicking up a stink when we get personally frustrated over something thats more to do with our interpretation than anything factual.

So far based on your points and framing, the only contradiction so far, is between your perception and interpretation between one and the other. Its okay if your interpretation wasn't perfect, its why the ability to ask for clarity is so important. So its not too much to ask for clarity, its to be expected and welcome, you just seem hung up on the idea, your interpretation of the rules is accurate/correct when it might not be. You then go on tangents citing unrelating matters about how DE will punish you for "rubbing politics wrong" and so on.

If you can't trust a company, then don't trust a company. You shouldn't argue minutiae about particular wording if ultimately it won't matter because you do not trust them anyway. Which is also independent of the various claims you attempt to make, as if you have any credibility or demonstrable expertise in interpreting such rules, decisions and outcomes.

Here is my personal rule of thumb advice. The more sincere and genuine you are, the less you have to worry about being banned, as long as you employ a bit of common sense. The trap some people fall into, is they aren't good at communicating, reading and interpreting situations well, or taking personal responsibility and accountability. Like the content creator I mentioned, who got banned, for using a boosting website, thats strictly against the rules, trying to claim that the rules are inconsistent and messy, and that other content creators should also be banned too, for various reasons. People will often claim that DE banned them for X reason, when the actual reason was Y. "DE banned me, because they are obviously against people with beards, and I have a beard. It wasn't because I threatened to kill unicorns and said a bunch of racial slurs haha. Plus where in the rules does DE say no beards? The rules are BS". The rules aren't perfect, but in that situation thats clearly someone who is really way off on their interpretation of what happened and why.

If you really think DE is as you say they are, I really don't know why you would give them your energy or time. Even your engagement to their product is a positive to them. If I thought what you did about them, I would uninstall and avoid such a corrupted and petty business.

Raarsi · February 18

2 hours ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

Here is my personal rule of thumb advice. The more sincere and genuine you are, the less you have to worry about being banned, as long as you employ a bit of common sense. The trap some people fall into, is they aren't good at communicating, reading and interpreting situations well, or taking personal responsibility and accountability.

Pretty much this. Also IIRC, in order to get banned, someone has to present to DE some sort of proof that you were doing it, meaning that unless someone from your clan reports the OP for doing it with at least some sort of evidence or the OP feels like streaming it on some public platform like Twitch or Youtube, then they should be fine.

Another thing for the OP to bear in mind is that the EULA isn't necessarily intended to be a set of rules so much as it is for DE's legal protection in the event that they believe a particular customer should be denied access to their product, and GMs or CMs likely won't be of much help either because the ruling would likely fall to whatever they personally believe or whatever orders they have been directed to follow. A similar situation happened with Final Fantasy XIV when it came to third-party tools, and it ultimately went down to the game's producer and director declaring what was along the lines of a "don't ask, don't tell" policy, where as long as no one reports you or you're not providing some sort of public proof (like that one idiot plugging third-party services on a stream), then you're fine.

As for the "common sense" element in this particular instance OP, it helps to understand why DE would be worried about this particular issue. In this case, I'd personally suspect it's to prevent people from buying certain things from the item shop (such as plat) and selling them to other players for higher prices than intended by the game. Yes, there are particular protections in the item shop against this, but it's much more difficult to guarantee those protections for things like giveaways when you could have someone offering things like real money that is harder for DE to track, so that legal protection granted by the EULA is there as a protective measure for DE and those other players against things like that. Just as what has been said to you previously OP, be genuine about it, maybe restrict your giveaways to non-plat rewards if necessary, and possibly keep your receipts in case someone in your clan does try to report you for it (you can't be banned for buying items from the item shop as gifts to other players or else DE would remove that feature from player access).

Ruwr · February 18

4 hours ago, Raarsi said:

Pretty much this. Also IIRC, in order to get banned, someone has to present to DE some sort of proof that you were doing it, meaning that unless someone from your clan reports the OP for doing it with at least some sort of evidence or the OP feels like streaming it on some public platform like Twitch or Youtube, then they should be fine.

Another thing for the OP to bear in mind is that the EULA isn't necessarily intended to be a set of rules so much as it is for DE's legal protection in the event that they believe a particular customer should be denied access to their product, and GMs or CMs likely won't be of much help either because the ruling would likely fall to whatever they personally believe or whatever orders they have been directed to follow. A similar situation happened with Final Fantasy XIV when it came to third-party tools, and it ultimately went down to the game's producer and director declaring what was along the lines of a "don't ask, don't tell" policy, where as long as no one reports you or you're not providing some sort of public proof (like that one idiot plugging third-party services on a stream), then you're fine.

As for the "common sense" element in this particular instance OP, it helps to understand why DE would be worried about this particular issue. In this case, I'd personally suspect it's to prevent people from buying certain things from the item shop (such as plat) and selling them to other players for higher prices than intended by the game. Yes, there are particular protections in the item shop against this, but it's much more difficult to guarantee those protections for things like giveaways when you could have someone offering things like real money that is harder for DE to track, so that legal protection granted by the EULA is there as a protective measure for DE and those other players against things like that. Just as what has been said to you previously OP, be genuine about it, maybe restrict your giveaways to non-plat rewards if necessary, and possibly keep your receipts in case someone in your clan does try to report you for it (you can't be banned for buying items from the item shop as gifts to other players or else DE would remove that feature from player access).

This is the concern though, i have people from countries where the platinum is cheap, and they hold tons of it. Most of them actually farmed it through playing the game smart.
I dont know where the risk lies and that creates uncertainty.

You advocate for communicating everything with D.E but during the active months i'm not certain if a new event every week with hundreds to thousands of platinum being distributed amongst people would ''raise their suspicion''

And if it does, i can send evidence on evidence that it was an event and all they have to say was 'Well, i'm sorry we discouraged you from doing that'

I don't like walking on thin ice, i really don't. Especially not if im doing stuff to make others happy, i have no gain in this other than attempting to keep a community alive during the well known lulls of warframe. Therefore i ask more specified rules.

Sadly this is how it goes 95% of the time, i dont have a giant 'following' or whatever to back me up if something like that happens, only the clan that is affiliated with the activity/events.. So that doesn't hold up either.

Im trying to raise these concerns before its too late, because id rather prevent that solve.
D,E doesn't seem to be willing to put out an official statement on it, but i would still be happy if they eventually did.

Ruwr · February 18

7 hours ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

If you really think DE is as you say they are, I really don't know why you would give them your energy or time. Even your engagement to their product is a positive to them. If I thought what you did about them, I would uninstall and avoid such a corrupted and petty business.

The only thing i can judge from is what happened to me before, you get muted and silenced for opinions on their discord.
Their rules say 1 but their support claim 2

there's stories out there that people get banned for weird reasons, i cant verify those since they are just stories.

And its not about D.E anymore, they just happen to have made this game, for me its about all the people i know from the game and the relationships that have flourished from it, the discord that plays together now but ultimately met on warframe and return to here.
I don't know D.E, i highly doubt we'd be attending the same parties anytime soon.

And i'm not willing to be in an uncertain position the entire time, all the while you're theoretically doing them a favor by keeping a allbeit small on the scale of things portion of the playerbase happy, content and busy during the times that it needs.

Sure you might say that my vision could be wrong, but i dont want to find out if that's the case if you catch my drift here.

--So therefore i ask D.E kindly to be a bit more precise, or just come forward with a statement that if you can prove X and X you are safe.--

Edited February 18 by Ruwr

Raarsi · February 18

2 hours ago, Ruwr said:

This is the concern though, i have people from countries where the platinum is cheap, and they hold tons of it. Most of them actually farmed it through playing the game smart.
I dont know where the risk lies and that creates uncertainty.

The risk lies in what I just said before:

6 hours ago, Raarsi said:

in order to get banned, someone has to present to DE some sort of proof that you were doing it, meaning that unless someone from your clan reports the OP for doing it with at least some sort of evidence or the OP feels like streaming it on some public platform like Twitch or Youtube, then they should be fine.

Don't stream it, and trust your clanmates....or do you?

2 hours ago, Ruwr said:

I don't like walking on thin ice, i really don't. Especially not if im doing stuff to make others happy, i have no gain in this other than attempting to keep a community alive during the well known lulls of warframe. Therefore i ask more specified rules.

All of what seems to be anxiety talk combined with that one statement tells me that you probably don't trust people in your clan. Or people in general.

So my question to you then is if you're not willing to trust, then should you really be trying to do any sort of giveaway?

Edited February 18 by Raarsi

0bsi · February 18

I think what you fail to understand (which we've been trying to explain) is that there are reasons that some TOS/Rules/Guidelines are written vaguely -- One of which is so that they don't give ideas to people on how they can bend the rules without breaking them, or guide them on how they could circumvent the rules. Another reason is because sometimes things aren't as simple as a Yes/No answer - it's a "Depends on how you do it" situation, that would need to be addressed in a case by case basis.

There are many ways the trading system can be used nefariously. It's therefore quite understandable that DE doesn't have a specific policy about what you can and can't do in terms of using trading to give away "prizes" (but generally discourages it) - because while the majority of players would use the system for innocent and legitimate reasons, theree will always be some who don't.

Many clans have events that give away prizes without incident, you're making this out to be a lot more problematic than it is -- although if you're talking about running giveaways "every week with hundreds to thousands of platinum" then that's likely to raise flags where other clans doing a monthly giveaway of 100plat would not.

If what you're doing looks suspicious, it's likely to raise flags.

On the topic of the "contradictory" rules. In your other thread you say the rules contradicted themselves because the trading FAQ says this:
https://support.warframe.com/hc/en-us/articles/200092259-Trading-FAQ-Safe-Trading-Tips

Quote

Q: Can I create contests with giveaway prizes that are awarded via Trading?

Please do not do this. While your intent may be innocent, if your contest will rely on the Warframe Trading or Gifting systems to send items or Platinum to players directly we must HIGHLY discourage this. This is not the intent of these systems and there is little to differentiate this sort of contest from possible fraudulent or illegitimate transactions between parties. Contests from the Warframe Community team (Dev Streams, Prime Time, etc), Fansites, and partners will use the code redemption system and are the only sanctioned method of conducting a contest with players. Digital Extremes does not offer support for unsanctioned giveaways or contests.

And you said that Support answered you by saying:

Quote

Hey there, And thank you for your patience. You can occasionally have small events for your Clan - in those case please provide us through a ticket the following information: Date of the event, and when the prizes were distributed Who gave the prizes (please list the players if there were several of them) Names of the players receiving the prizes List of the prizes being given away Thanks for your cooperation!

Those aren't contradictory. It is effectively like saying "Do so at your own risk, but if you're going to do it, please send us the info of what you did."

"Please do not do this" / "we must HIGHLY discourage this" -- means that they don't want you to do it, but they don't have rules against it. The reason they don't want people doing it is because it's possible for there to be issues.

The reason they would want you to send them the information on the date/winners etc, is presumably so that that if an issue was to arrise, they can check that against the info you provided.

---------------------------

At the end of the day - You have your answer from DE and that's all you're likely to get. People here have tried to explain to you why you're unlikely to get anything more definitive than what you've already been told.

If you don't like it, don't host the giveaways.

PollexMessier · February 18

On 2024-02-16 at 8:27 PM, Ruwr said:

Q: Can I create contests with giveaway prizes that are awarded via Trading?

Please do not do this. While your intent may be innocent, if your contest will rely on the Warframe Trading or Gifting systems to send items or Platinum to players directly we must HIGHLY discourage this. This is not the intent of these systems and there is little to differentiate this sort of contest from possible fraudulent or illegitimate transactions between parties.

If sending items or platinum to other players isn't the intended purpose of the trading and gifting systems.... I think the entirety of DE's staff needs to go have a mental evaluation, and possibly check themselves into an institution. Because that it literally the ONLY thing those systems do.

And the the "If your contest will rely on..." Qualifier is the thing they're referring to there, then..... why? What makes that any different from any other reason to use those systems? Giving a few winners some stuff through gift or trade would be completely indistinguishable from just giving some friends some stuff through gift or trade, or some random player, just because you felt like it. Which... there's an entire event dedicated to doing. Soo????

What this statement says is effectively "We can ban you at any time, if you use the trade or gift systems for literally any reason whatsoever, and blame it on rmt with no proof, just because we feel like it."

Edited February 18 by PollexMessier

(PSN)slightconfuzzled · February 18

7 hours ago, Ruwr said:

The only thing i can judge from is what happened to me before, you get muted and silenced for opinions on their discord.
Their rules say 1 but their support claim 2 there's stories out there that people get banned for weird reasons, i cant verify those since they are just stories.

And its not about D.E anymore, they just happen to have made this game, for me its about all the people i know from the game and the relationships that have flourished from it, the discord that plays together now but ultimately met on warframe and return to here.
I don't know D.E, i highly doubt we'd be attending the same parties anytime soon. And i'm not willing to be in an uncertain position the entire time, all the while you're theoretically doing them a favor by keeping a allbeit small on the scale of things portion of the playerbase happy, content and busy during the times that it needs.

Sure you might say that my vision could be wrong, but i dont want to find out if that's the case if you catch my drift here. --So therefore i ask D.E kindly to be a bit more precise, or just come forward with a statement that if you can prove X and X you are safe.--

Sure, but you are now also implicitly asking people to take your first hand account as accurate. Which out of good faith, I am willing to do, but I have to also consider that, as well as extending good faith to you and your experiences, it may be beneficial to you, if I am considerate and extend a certain amount of good faith to others, that you interacted with.

In more plain terms, what do I mean? Well I don't know what you done or said, or to who, or what others on the Discord said or did. I have no idea if you are innocent, and completely within the rules, or you were against the rules and were fairly reprimanded. I don't even know if the people at the Discord are the same people as the Support. I know the different site website moderators have little overlap. It also may have been more complicated that one party being in the wrong, as miscommunications and misunderstandings happen frequently. Sometimes people are more willing to show patience, empathy, other times they go more to quick punishments.

I have no doubts that in various types of situations with power dynamics (including the small and mundane type around game and website moderation), that some abuse, mismanage or overexert with zeal. Its also accurate that there are many people who just don't like that, and act and behave in ways, defiant of such guidelines. Thats also not inherently negative or positive, depends on the other variables), then, often overlook, are the people who get into misunderstandings, miscommunications, their intent and actions conflict, frustration or emotion conflicts with their goal or intent, or inaccurate assumptions are made. There are a lot of different explanations for this sort of thing. I got moderated on a website to do with Warframe once. Its because I made a satirical post, that wasn't recognised as satire by a moderator at first, so they warned me for it. How I reacted was important. I could either get confrontational, and accuse the moderator of being harsh, if they knew it was satire, then they should know I was joking, and I shouldn't get any warning. Or... I could acknowledge, that from their perspective, having a user saying what I said, seriously and sincerely, without sarcasm, would be a bad look for the website. Plus I really wouldn't want someone to have misunderstood my original intent. Sarcasm and satire can sometimes be hard to interpret via text alone, so I was more gracious and friendly. Plus it was a very minor warning.

Some people haven't practiced or trained that part of themselves. How they react and respond to certain situations. Is this possibly a misunderstanding, and how do I respond in a way thats not going to escalate the situation. I am aware of the "stories", but these Forums also often get people upset about being banned, talking about ow they are completely innocent. Then the next thing you know, they are insulting people in the replies, for doubting them. Its a bit frustrating to watch, because in those situations, the OP may be completely accurate, as far as their original claim, however... It becomes really apparent that that same person, reacts with hostility and aggressiveness, easily, and escalates situations, as opposed to reacting with more patience and willingness to cooperate with others. So even if the OP didn't commit the original offence, it becomes easy to see how they made their own situation worse by trying to explain that. Its a tricky awkward scenario in more serious situations, because ideally innocent people shouldn't be punished. However it gets complicated when innocent people, escalate a situation and start committing smaller offences, because of how they are reacting to conflict.

If you have cherished and valued and friendships from Warframe, they don't have to only exist because of Warframe. There are many other different games out there, and you are the ones to decide where it takes place. It doesn't need to be Warframe, especially if you explain to them, your views on DE. They should probably encourage you to not support a game like Warframe, if the people behind it, are guilty of that which you claim. Or do you think they may not believe they are as bad as you claim?

You may not be attending parties with DE, but you are funding their parties by supporting their game, with your engagement, time and energy. I think you also misunderstand my position here. I am not doing DE any favours, I am not trying to keep the player base happy. I am advocating that the player base and consumers generally try to be knowledgeable and aware of our consumer rights, power structures and the legalese around terms, conditions, agreements, EULA, website rules and guidelines. A part of that is distinguishing bad arguments from good arguments. Even from the player side. If a player gets banned because they sent death threats to another player with hostility and anger, thats not the same, as someone being banned because there is a potentially corrupt moderator who lied about what they did, because said moderator was abusing power. As players, we don't just blindly defend both, just because they are players too. Some peoples situations are more legitimately worthy of assistance and or scrutiny than others. I do believe that generally, DE is a more consumer friendly business than many other video game developers. So thats kind of nice. That being said, I'm also big on consumer rights, yours included, and an important part of that is refining your ability to interpret various ways consumers interact with various policies and what that means in the abstract and practical.

Your vision may be wrong, but it doesn't necessarily have to be as dire as you assume it may be. Take any one of the "tons of people who host them" you claimed as an example. Think about the specifics of what they did. Do you want to do that too? Then just replicate it. Just don't be shady, insincere or accusatory towards others. Unless you don't actually know the specifics or details of what those other "tons of people" did? Are you sure some of them didn't clarify permissions first? Or did you just assume they didn't? Or did you assume, that "other people do stuff all the time", but when I do it, I get in trouble? Which again, as far as feelings go, I can sympathise, but its usually more complicated and nuanced than that.

If you are implying that the DE support team was more encouraging. Then go off that. Thats a type of permission, and you can cite them in the future. A person in an official support role, clarifying and explaining the rules to you, will often be superior to your own interpretation of a prewritten generalised guideline. You really do not have to make a big deal about the two being "contradictory" because you insist that rules be literal. Not only that but if you want the DE rules to be more precise, often that means becoming more complicated, which some people find harder to understand and less clear. It also doesn't stop people from misinterpreting them either, since more precise doesn't mean more peoples interpretations get better.

(PSN)slightconfuzzled · February 18

Here's a small example if it helps.

Sometimes in trade chat I see new people asking for some basic item, that I have hundreds of, and they are willing to spend more Plat than I think its personally worth. I'll send them a message telling them I have the item, but I often just give it to them for free. They are new, certain mods like regular Intensify, or Streamline are really basic to most builds. Can make a huge difference. They can use their 30 Plat for Slots or something else instead. Or sometimes when I sell a Prime Warframe to someone, I'll check what their MR is, and give them a free weapon of some sort (I use their MR as a rough guide to consider what they might not have already), sometimes I'll just ask them, if they are higher MR instead. I have a lot of stuff, and some weapons like the Epitaph are super fun, and I want more people to enjoy them, and I have a surplus of BP's etc.

Often they are grateful and appreciative. Some are a bit confused and think they need to give me something in return, like extra Plat or something. My response is pretty similar, in that I tell them, when I first started playing, many older veterans helped me with small extras. So I am doing the same. Its just an extra bonus or freebie. Then I say, that if they enjoy Warframe and keep playing it, maybe one day they will also have a lot of resources, and that it might be nice if they decide to help out newer players too. Which many seem to respond to favourably. After all, they just get new stuff to build and play with.

Now, arguably, you could just say that I traded for a "favour/promise". Someone incapable of being able to consider context might just think "Uh oh, you just broke one of Warframes most important rules around trading. You must be banned now", but I never have and seriously doubt I ever will. DE knows and passively encourages that sort of friendly behaviour from older players, helping out newer players, or new friends, etc. They know that "uneven value" trades happen all the time. The rules and guidelines that do exist are more to do with shady, players trying to cheat and exploit systems, other players, for self gain. Where favours and promises are less ambiguous, and more on the shady, unenforced side of things, like joining clans, or feet pics. This is where peoples abilities to distinguish and discern the differences is really important. Then if you can't discern or distinguish the difference? Then play it on the safe side.

Ruwr · February 19

On 2024-02-18 at 2:57 PM, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

Here's a small example if it helps.

Sometimes in trade chat I see new people asking for some basic item, that I have hundreds of, and they are willing to spend more Plat than I think its personally worth. I'll send them a message telling them I have the item, but I often just give it to them for free. They are new, certain mods like regular Intensify, or Streamline are really basic to most builds. Can make a huge difference. They can use their 30 Plat for Slots or something else instead. Or sometimes when I sell a Prime Warframe to someone, I'll check what their MR is, and give them a free weapon of some sort (I use their MR as a rough guide to consider what they might not have already), sometimes I'll just ask them, if they are higher MR instead. I have a lot of stuff, and some weapons like the Epitaph are super fun, and I want more people to enjoy them, and I have a surplus of BP's etc.

Often they are grateful and appreciative. Some are a bit confused and think they need to give me something in return, like extra Plat or something. My response is pretty similar, in that I tell them, when I first started playing, many older veterans helped me with small extras. So I am doing the same. Its just an extra bonus or freebie. Then I say, that if they enjoy Warframe and keep playing it, maybe one day they will also have a lot of resources, and that it might be nice if they decide to help out newer players too. Which many seem to respond to favourably. After all, they just get new stuff to build and play with.

Now, arguably, you could just say that I traded for a "favour/promise". Someone incapable of being able to consider context might just think "Uh oh, you just broke one of Warframes most important rules around trading. You must be banned now", but I never have and seriously doubt I ever will. DE knows and passively encourages that sort of friendly behaviour from older players, helping out newer players, or new friends, etc. They know that "uneven value" trades happen all the time. The rules and guidelines that do exist are more to do with shady, players trying to cheat and exploit systems, other players, for self gain. Where favours and promises are less ambiguous, and more on the shady, unenforced side of things, like joining clans, or feet pics. This is where peoples abilities to distinguish and discern the differences is really important. Then if you can't discern or distinguish the difference? Then play it on the safe side.

Yeah youre brining up such far fetched ideas
try tradin 3-5k plat on a weekly basis and see what happens, im done talking.

We Know nobody cares if you trade someoen a transient fusion, thats not what this discussion is about, its not for the brokies.

Edited February 19 by Ruwr

Ruwr · February 19

On 2024-02-18 at 9:35 AM, PollexMessier said:

If sending items or platinum to other players isn't the intended purpose of the trading and gifting systems.... I think the entirety of DE's staff needs to go have a mental evaluation, and possibly check themselves into an institution. Because that it literally the ONLY thing those systems do.

And the the "If your contest will rely on..." Qualifier is the thing they're referring to there, then..... why? What makes that any different from any other reason to use those systems? Giving a few winners some stuff through gift or trade would be completely indistinguishable from just giving some friends some stuff through gift or trade, or some random player, just because you felt like it. Which... there's an entire event dedicated to doing. Soo????

What this statement says is effectively "We can ban you at any time, if you use the trade or gift systems for literally any reason whatsoever, and blame it on rmt with no proof, just because we feel like it."

Long story short, im done argueing on these forums, look at these hippies above doing their absolute best to fin d the most far fetched singular exceptions on a simple rule thats gonna get your account ruined. They call those fanboys, my dear watson.

Go trade 3-5k platinum from a weekly basis with your IP being in Jordan, or Azerbaizjan or some country where you pay Nothing for that in comparison to Britain for example./

See what happens to your account, ill challenge them to come back here and properly tell me to shutup if they manage to recover their accounts
Untill then this discussion is just a yapping fest, These people dont even make the rules theyre just Guessing and wasting my, and their own time.

Ruwr · February 19

On 2024-02-18 at 9:16 AM, 0bsi said:

I think what you fail to understand (which we've been trying to explain) is that there are reasons that some TOS/Rules/Guidelines are written vaguely -- One of which is so that they don't give ideas to people on how they can bend the rules without breaking them, or guide them on how they could circumvent the rules. Another reason is because sometimes things aren't as simple as a Yes/No answer - it's a "Depends on how you do it" situation, that would need to be addressed in a case by case basis.

There are many ways the trading system can be used nefariously. It's therefore quite understandable that DE doesn't have a specific policy about what you can and can't do in terms of using trading to give away "prizes" (but generally discourages it) - because while the majority of players would use the system for innocent and legitimate reasons, theree will always be some who don't.

Many clans have events that give away prizes without incident, you're making this out to be a lot more problematic than it is -- although if you're talking about running giveaways "every week with hundreds to thousands of platinum" then that's likely to raise flags where other clans doing a monthly giveaway of 100plat would not.

If what you're doing looks suspicious, it's likely to raise flags.

On the topic of the "contradictory" rules. In your other thread you say the rules contradicted themselves because the trading FAQ says this:
https://support.warframe.com/hc/en-us/articles/200092259-Trading-FAQ-Safe-Trading-Tips

And you said that Support answered you by saying:

Those aren't contradictory. It is effectively like saying "Do so at your own risk, but if you're going to do it, please send us the info of what you did."

"Please do not do this" / "we must HIGHLY discourage this" -- means that they don't want you to do it, but they don't have rules against it. The reason they don't want people doing it is because it's possible for there to be issues.

The reason they would want you to send them the information on the date/winners etc, is presumably so that that if an issue was to arrise, they can check that against the info you provided.

---------------------------

At the end of the day - You have your answer from DE and that's all you're likely to get. People here have tried to explain to you why you're unlikely to get anything more definitive than what you've already been told.

If you don't like it, don't host the giveaways.

An answer that contradicted their rules, Im glad you agree to live in a society where people live off of privileges and laws get laid upon a case by case basis...

Sorry that your brain accepts this kind of behavior, you must've had it real rough.

On 2024-02-18 at 8:24 AM, Raarsi said:

The risk lies in what I just said before:

Don't stream it, and trust your clanmates....or do you?

All of what seems to be anxiety talk combined with that one statement tells me that you probably don't trust people in your clan. Or people in general.

So my question to you then is if you're not willing to trust, then should you really be trying to do any sort of giveaway?

I trust my own community, but i dont trust their background system that automatically flags, its a robot
and i certaintly dont trust the manual investigation after because they dont have context

Are you all this naive
Seriously?

Are you all like 20, just left your teenage year about to do something for the first time without your mom being a fallnet?

This is the reality, go do your research. If it wasn't D.E would've stepped forward without any form of shame
Im baffled with the amount of trust you all seem to place into what is for you Unknown, based on ZERO research.

Go read up, come back, well have a chat.
Theres are and were plenty of bans going around for questionable things such as for instance: OPINIONS.

If you advocate you want more rainbows in the game nothing will happen.
I suggest you all try to ask in a singular sentence if we can have one single less rainbow in the game through lets say discord.
Go see for yourself what happens, Its just an example with a different topic but the same logic applies. Its case by case and emotionally oriented.

-- a moderator from d.e's team must be present for this challenge and you may not inform them beforehand, it must be a natural interaction and action --

Come back and tell me you trust these people blindfoldedly to not ban you or your officers from a cheap platinum buying country paying out 3-5k plat to accounts Seemingly for no reason (Unless i go through the trouble of recording everything and making a full support ticket every time, to which i will get a response or read about 1-2 weeks after, if the system bans us during this time... Well you can do math cant you?)

Or even better you accumulate it in a country where its '' expensive '' and then distribute it
Tell me what that system sees and what it does, just brain it.

Edited February 19 by Ruwr

(PSN)slightconfuzzled · February 19

6 minutes ago, Ruwr said:

Yeah youre brining up such far fetched ideas
try tradin 3-5k plat on a weekly basis and see what happens, im done talking.

We Know nobody cares if you trade someoen a transient fusion, thats not what this discussion is about, its not for the brokies.

They are just examples to help explain important concepts relevant to the topic at hand.

Think about it this way? If you can't meaningfully interpret others points, but instead of trying to communicate with them to understand, like request clarification, or even explain your own perspective if you think its relevant and adds context, to see what they may think on that, then its probably related to why you might be having so much issue as far as thinking the rules and what support say are contradictory.

You can be done talking sure. I am not holding you hostage, and I don't view the discussion as an antagonistic one. If you reply to me, I will reply to you.

You can claim that no body cares if you trade someone a "transient fusion", but some would claim that "no one would find the rules/guidelines to be so confusing and contradictory to write as much about it as you have", because to some of us, it isn't what you seem to think it is. Its relatively simple. You can continue to claim otherwise, but people have sincerely tried to explain and help you with this. Most of the posts I have seen, haven't been people looking for arguments, just people being respectful and trying to help, by pointing out possible misinterpretations you may have had, and why and how the rules can be interpreted and why they are written in certain ways, and why they aren't written in other ways, like you might suggest or imply.

All the best to you.

Ruwr · February 19

5 minutes ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

They are just examples to help explain important concepts relevant to the topic at hand.

Think about it this way? If you can't meaningfully interpret others points, but instead of trying to communicate with them to understand, like request clarification, or even explain your own perspective if you think its relevant and adds context, to see what they may think on that, then its probably related to why you might be having so much issue as far as thinking the rules and what support say are contradictory.

You can be done talking sure. I am not holding you hostage, and I don't view the discussion as an antagonistic one. If you reply to me, I will reply to you.

You can claim that no body cares if you trade someone a "transient fusion", but some would claim that "no one would find the rules/guidelines to be so confusing and contradictory to write as much about it as you have", because to some of us, it isn't what you seem to think it is. Its relatively simple. You can continue to claim otherwise, but people have sincerely tried to explain and help you with this. Most of the posts I have seen, haven't been people looking for arguments, just people being respectful and trying to help, by pointing out possible misinterpretations you may have had, and why and how the rules can be interpreted and why they are written in certain ways, and why they aren't written in other ways, like you might suggest or imply.

All the best to you.

Im guessing not everyone is capable of hosting these events :)
Same as not everyone is a clan leader
same as not everyone has the energy.

Its not your daily transaction, so to use that as an example to close this argument is silly at the very least.
It has nothing to do with it.

Edited February 19 by Ruwr

(PSN)slightconfuzzled · February 19

Just now, Ruwr said:

Im guessing not everyone is capable of hosting these events :)

If I had to make an educated guess based off my current understanding of the guidelines, I would say it would probably depend on the additional variables. Like most things. Meaning sometimes there might not be a clear or simple yes or no answer. Hence why rules and guidelines will be worded certain ways, and may also overlap within themselves with other rules/guidelines. So even in cases there are clear yes or no answers, often they come with unstated assumptions/implications, usually related to some other rule/guideline.

You could probably host an event and be totally fine, but thats also not an excuse or justification to run an event and act with a carte blanche attitude. Think about someone who decides to host a fashion event and the winner gets 1000 Platinum. Then the person hosting just blocks everyone who signed up, and avoids actually giving a prize. Participants who spend time and effort putting together a good fashion just for the event, might feel annoyed and frustrated, but then what can they do? What can DE do? Enforce a punishment? Maybe. Enforce and force a player to give up 1000 Platinum they might not have, or is their own, just because they said they would for an event?

Those are rhetorical questions, on the flip side the "tons of giveaways you see other people do all the time", some of them may actually be reliable, honest and putting in due diligence, and being mindful of hosting the event and potential issues that may arise, and being careful and considerate to make sure everyone involved is being treated well, fairly and with transparency, and maybe emphasis the fun part and the community aspects instead of some crazy reward. They may have also spoken to Support as well. So in that case, even though DE might discourage such events, its the latter that won't get in trouble, and to some, thats obvious. The rule, guideline, "discouragement" is often there for the people who are shady and think of ways to exploit other players or even just players who will frustrate other players, without necessarily breaking one of the other rules. Like if they keep delaying awards or can't decide on a date or time for the event, or if players end up fighting or disagreeing about something, like if they find out the hosts best friend entered and also won, or stuff like that.

Are you sincere, genuine and good at communication with people? Then try it, sounds like fun.

That being said, I have never hosted any sort of event with giveaways nor do I plan to, but apparently "tons of people do", so again, you could just ask one of them. Or if you already asked Support and they were encouraging, you have the green light already. Being critical of the rules wording is also fine, I myself can be critical of such guidelines and rules, but being critical and acknowledging why or how they are written are two different concepts.

I asked them a simple question?

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