I don't understand why the "spool up" effect is in the game.

[MrDugan]

Certain automatic weapons have a "spool up" effect where they start out at an abysmally slow fraction of their total fire rate, and slowly ramp up to their listed fire rate.  There's only 2 reasons why I can see for this being in the game.  The first is some kind of "cool" factor.  The problem is, it's not cool.  It doesn't feel cinematic.  It's aggravating on every weapon that I've used it on, and I mod for fire rate to mitigate it because it's a nuisance.  It doesn't add any flavor to a weapon, not even the first time I use one that has it.  It only adds a roadblock to me actually shooting something.  And considering it's not even a realistic mechanic in terms of how firearms work, especially not the fire arms it's on, it's actually what I would consider immersion breaking.

The other reason would be "balance."  And that's in quotes because the majority of the weapons this mechanic is on, need buffs.  They don't need a limiting factor to balance them out.  They would all, down to every single weapon including good ones like the Soma Prime, still be underpowered compared to top tier weapons even if they did not have this mechanic.  Even weapons that some might put in the top tier, like the Kuva Kohm, would not be overpowered without this mechanic.  It does not generate balance even for the rare few strong weapons that have it.  It just generates an annoyance, and practically mandates a fire rate mod to make it less annoying to use.

Weapons like the Aksomati Prime and Twin Kohmak are close to being actually solid weapons, but have so many pointless "balance" factors on them like this spool up mechanic that make them some of the least used weapons we have.  I know they would never be as popular as AOE or chaining beams or incarnons, but weapons like single target automatics (primary and secondary) have long needed love, and starting by removing pointless restrictions on them would go a long way toward at least making them comfortable to screw around with, even if they stay mid.

[Tiltskillet]

3 hours ago, MrDugan said:

The problem is, it's not cool.

Oh, dang, I disagree.  Although for a long time I avoided these weapons by default, so I kind of know what you mean.  But even then my thought process was more "spool-up weapons aren't my cup of tea" rather than "remove spool-up from the game".

Then I revisited Twin Kohmak, after initially treating it as MR fodder.  And I'm so glad I did, because it's fun as hell, and it became my favorite side-arm in the game.  For a lot of reasons, but the biggest one is its feel.  Spool-up is an integral part of that. Since then I've really gotten into Tenora Prime, and have just recently started having a blast with Kuva Kohm.

Despite all that, one proposal I've seen once or twice that  people who hate the mechanic  might appreciate is this: an exilus mod that removes it.  Maybe with a small bonus to something else too.

[Hexerin]

Hey man, don't you dare diss on my Soma and Gorgon. Their spool-up mechanics give them more flavor, and are part of what make them so badass.

[Famecans]

Akasomati gives me grastritis...

It would be useful mechanics if DE created new mods to work with, for example, the first shot has a 1000% damage bonus but shooting two shots in a row consumes 75% of the magazine.

[MrDugan]

3 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

Oh, dang, I disagree.  Although for a long time I avoided these weapons by default, so I kind of know what you mean.  But even then my thought process was more "spool-up weapons aren't my cup of tea" rather than "remove spool-up from the game".

Then I revisited Twin Kohmak, after initially treating it as MR fodder.  And I'm so glad I did, because it's fun as hell, and it became my favorite side-arm in the game.  For a lot of reasons, but the biggest one is its feel.  Spool-up is an integral part of that. Since then I've really gotten into Tenora Prime, and have just recently started having a blast with Kuva Kohm.

Despite all that, one proposal I've seen once or twice that  people who hate the mechanic  might appreciate is this: an exilus mod that removes it.  Maybe with a small bonus to something else too.

 

2 hours ago, Hexerin said:

Hey man, don't you dare diss on my Soma and Gorgon. Their spool-up mechanics give them more flavor, and are part of what make them so badass.

I don't understand either of you, and I don't mean that in a hostile way, even if it comes across like that.  When I was a teenager I got my first car and it was a beat up POS and eventually developed an issue where it just wouldn't go when I hit the gas, and took forever to move.  Red lights were extremely embarrassing.  I did fix that eventually, but weapons with spool up remind me of that exact feeling.  I'm trying to go right now and instead I have to wait until the damn things decide to go.  I don't understand the concept of enjoying a hinderance for the sake of "flavor" or "character" or any of that.  I don't know if it's my background in the fabrication trades or what, but if I had an impact driver or drill that worked the same way these weapons do, I would take it apart and figure out why it was doing that and fix it so that it wouldn't do that any more.  Immediately.  Like I can't find anything that feels badass about the spool up mechanic.  It's mimicking the "spin up" time on rotary firearms like the M61 Vulcan, but it's past that.  It's highly exaggerated to be more noticeable, and there's no way it's mechanically necessary for something like the Soma series.  It would be ridiculously bad engineering to design it that way.  Like if we had an actual minigun type weapon and it had spin up, I could understand.  But...  The Soma's a space AK.  And the Gorgon is basically just the squad support weapon version of the Grakata.  I can almost understand it on the Kohm type weapons, but it's still so exaggerated there that they're frustrating to use without heavy fire rate adjustments with mods.

And it's funny that you mention the Twin Kohmak.  I got a riven for it, so I built it out today, which is what prompted me to finally issue this long-standing complaint I've had.  Those particular weapons are massively hampered in their potential by so many mechanical things that seem to have been done for balance, but they don't need those balancing factors because compared to top end gear they're very underpowered (though still viable, don't misunderstand.)  Low max ammo, low ammo pickup, and compared to ammo consumption at full spool, and compared to their primary counterpart, a very low magazine size, as well as low falloff.  On top of the spool up that's only bearable (imo) with both Lethal Torrent and my riven having fire rate.  Without those balancing factors they still wouldn't be anywhere near the top, but they would be so much better than they are now.  

Spool up weapons remind me of what I hated about the Convectrix, until DE let me mod to remove it.  It feels like it's wasting ammo to get to the part where it's doing actual work.  Even though technically it's not doing that with spool up, unless the user just has bad aim, that's how it feels.

Edited March 3 by MrDugan

[Hexerin]

If you don't like it, then don't use it. There's hundreds of other weapons for you to use. It's beyond selfish to ask for something that many people enjoy to be removed because you don't like it.

[MrDugan]

1 minute ago, Hexerin said:

If you don't like it, then don't use it. There's hundreds of other weapons for you to use. It's beyond selfish to ask for something that many people enjoy to be removed because you don't like it.

I find it nearly impossible to believe that there's too many of you that enjoy having to wait on your weapon to fire properly.  I swear the people in this community will get so attached to the weirdest, tiniest, most pointless details of a tool and start talking about how that thing is the tool's whole identity and is beyond important.  It's no more selfish to want a change than it is to not want a change.  I don't want the restriction, you want the restriction.  We both want what WE want, but you're trying to make me out to be the bad guy for not wanting a weapon to take an eternity to fire.

And I'm aware there's tons of weapons to use.  Yet mechanics within the game, including mechanics that are upcoming in new content, expect me to use all the gear, and not just what I like mechanically.  So I'm asking for a balancing restriction on a group of weapons that don't need to be restricted, be removed.  I didn't attack you for liking it in my response, I said I couldn't understand, yet here you are bashing me.  You could have been civil and just disagreed with me.  This is why I can't understand how everyone paints this community as so friendly.  Trying to paint me as some selfish monster ("beyond selfish" paints a pretty harsh picture, to me.) because I actually expect my weapon to fire at the listed fire rate when I pull the trigger. 

I haven't been modded on this lovely new account that DE forced on me, and I intend to keep it that way.  But based on how you spoke to me in your last reply, please understand I feel like you deserve a much harsher response than this.

[Tiltskillet]

2 hours ago, MrDugan said:

When I was a teenager I got my first car and it was a beat up POS and eventually developed an issue where it just wouldn't go when I hit the gas, and took forever to move.  Red lights were extremely embarrassing.  I did fix that eventually, but weapons with spool up remind me of that exact feeling.  I'm trying to go right now and instead I have to wait until the damn things decide to go.  I don't understand the concept of enjoying a hinderance for the sake of "flavor" or "character" or any of that.  I don't know if it's my background in the fabrication trades or what, but if I had an impact driver or drill that worked the same way these weapons do, I would take it apart and figure out why it was doing that and fix it so that it wouldn't do that any more.  Immediately.  Like I can't find anything that feels badass about the spool up mechanic.  It's mimicking the "spin up" time on rotary firearms like the M61 Vulcan, but it's past that.  It's highly exaggerated to be more noticeable, and there's no way it's mechanically necessary for something like the Soma series.  It would be ridiculously bad engineering to design it that way.  Like if we had an actual minigun type weapon and it had spin up, I could understand.  But...  The Soma's a space AK.  And the Gorgon is basically just the squad support weapon version of the Grakata.  I can almost understand it on the Kohm type weapons, but it's still so exaggerated there that they're frustrating to use without heavy fire rate adjustments with mods.

Yeah, I can understand where you're coming from.  Like I said earlier, at one time I avoided these weapons too.  And maybe if I were an engineer or armorer or gun collector I'd still be agreeing with you.    But all I can say now is...I don't feel that way at all.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

2 hours ago, MrDugan said:

I swear the people in this community will get so attached to the weirdest, tiniest, most pointless details of a tool and start talking about how that thing is the tool's whole identity and is beyond important.  It's no more selfish to want a change than it is to not want a change.  I don't want the restriction, you want the restriction.  We both want what WE want, but you're trying to make me out to be the bad guy for not wanting a weapon to take an eternity to fire.

I'm not going to disparage anybody for disliking characteristics of imaginary items in a video game.  But I do believe extra caution is warranted in making permanent changes to longstanding weapons that affect their feel.  Twin Kohmak has been around for 5 years, plenty of time for a few weirdos like me to become attached to them.  And I do see it in lists of "favorite fringe weapons" and the like, so I'm not the only one.

 In your shoes I'd be more inclined to feedback along the lines of "I'd like a weapon a lot like Kohm, but without that spool-up which feels bad to me."   Or, "When you design Incarnon Twin Kohmak [🔥!! ] can it have an evolution that starts it at its max RoF?" 

Speaking of which, what about the exilus mod that removes spool-up idea?  Too much of a hassle?

[taiiat]

Weapons with a spool offer the capability to fire short bursts or potentially individual Shots on demand, even while having a high Fire Rate.
that's the feature that it offers, i think.

[MrDugan]

10 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

Speaking of which, what about the exilus mod that removes spool-up idea?  Too much of a hassle?

The problem I have with that is several weapons that have spool up need that exilus slot to fix something wrong with the weapon.  The Twin Kohmak runs out of ammo very quickly in higher levels, and Trick Mag is the only way outside of a riven to shore that up.  Even if you have max ammo on a riven, both the Kohm and Kohmak series of weapons have short falloff, and honestly also "need" Terminal Velocity.  You need your 8 main slots so that the weapons have viable damage, and you have a single exilus slot that has several options that really should go in there to make the weapon more comfortable and fix all the limitations on them.  That's honestly the point of the post.  Twin Kohmak having low max ammo, low ammo pickup, low magazine versus ammo consumption, slow initial fire rate, short falloff, and having to spend ammo just to get the weapon spooled up on fire rate and putting out more multishot are all major limitations on a weapon that is nowhere even close to being strong enough to needing all those limitations for balance.  It is so mired and bogged down by what I have to assume are balancing factors and "flavor" that it ends up being a weapon that is often considered hard MR fodder.  While they're nowhere near as strong as the Kohm or Kuva Kohm in terms of stats and potential for damage, you have to look at how similar they are and wonder why they were never valued the same, because at full spool, with a good build, for just a second (until they run out of magazine.) they're close-ish to the Kohm in kill speed.

I'm in the slow process of putting a catalyst and full build on every weapon in the game.  It's becoming very easy to see exactly why some weapons just aren't used.  It's become easy to tell at a glance what weapons are going to have hurdles like this and pinpoint exactly what they'll be.  The problem is that every time I go to mention "Hey, this is actually what's wrong with the Stug."  I get pushback in the form of "I like the way this sucks.  I like how bad this is."  Spool up is "flavor" but it's also a major limitation to kill speed, which absolutely matters in a game that just throws never ending waves of enemies at you.  

 

9 hours ago, taiiat said:

Weapons with a spool offer the capability to fire short bursts or potentially individual Shots on demand, even while having a high Fire Rate.
that's the feature that it offers, i think.

But I can fire short bursts and single shots with pretty much any automatic weapon in the game.  I don't need a relatively long period of the weapon feeling too sleepy to fire at full speed for me to be able to do that.

[Tiltskillet]

51 minutes ago, MrDugan said:

Twin Kohmak having low max ammo, low ammo pickup, low magazine versus ammo consumption, slow initial fire rate, short falloff, and having to spend ammo just to get the weapon spooled up on fire rate and putting out more multishot are all major limitations

It didn't need its ammo nerfed so hard in Veilbreaker.  Ammo pick up is a stat I would have no problem getting bumped up a notch, same with falloff.

51 minutes ago, MrDugan said:

The problem is that every time I go to mention "Hey, this is actually what's wrong with the Stug."  I get pushback in the form of "I like the way this sucks.  I like how bad this is."  Spool up is "flavor" but it's also a major limitation to kill speed, which absolutely matters in a game that just throws never ending waves of enemies at you.  

I guess.  I just don't think it's a major limitation when the game feels pretty easy overall, so I feel relatively free to select weapons for character that I enjoy.  To a point anyway.  Slow single target weapons I find really difficult to use in more horde-y content.  Most automatic weapons though are on the more challenging end but still in my comfort zone.  And Twin Kohmak among the more capable of those that are still technically single target, since it does decent damage, has natural spread, and some innate punch through. 

 

Edited March 3 by Tiltskillet

[quxier]

19 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

On 2024-03-02 at 6:50 PM, MrDugan said:

The problem is, it's not cool.

Oh, dang, I disagree.  Although for a long time I avoided these weapons by default, so I kind of know what you mean.  But even then my thought process was more "spool-up weapons aren't my cup of tea" rather than "remove spool-up from the game".

17 hours ago, Hexerin said:

Hey man, don't you dare diss on my Soma and Gorgon. Their spool-up mechanics give them more flavor, and are part of what make them so badass.

Ok, but what's so cool or badass about those weapons.

 

Mechanically speaking, on enemy side it make sense. It provides you with certain tactics. For examples Heavy gunner has slow fire rate at the beginning so you can hide&shoot tactics.

 

On player side it doesn't make sense. It's like let's slap some negative without giving us positive. For example slow weapons have high damage and/or area of effect (e.g. Kuva Brama). Except cheesing, you can for example shoot group of enemies. While singe, fast guns shoots many enemies without delays. That's pros & cons of weapons.

Spool up effect? Like why bother with slower version, limited ammo, when you can have normal weapon with constant fire rate? Is there a single spool up weapon that have some pros over other "constant firerate weapons"?

15 hours ago, Hexerin said:

If you don't like it, then don't use it. There's hundreds of other weapons for you to use. It's beyond selfish to ask for something that many people enjoy to be removed because you don't like it.

That's not how discusion goes. If there is a problem then people should speak.

 

[Hexerin]

4 minutes ago, quxier said:

That's not how discusion goes. If there is a problem then people should speak.

There's no problem with the weapons. The problem is you selfishly demanding that a specific weapon, out of hundreds of weapons, be changed to suit you even though there's plenty of others who like the weapon as it is. If you don't like the weapon, simply don't use it. Full stop.

[Tiltskillet]

8 minutes ago, quxier said:

On player side it doesn't make sense. It's like let's slap some negative without giving us positive.

Which spool-up weapons don't have have any positives? 

[quxier]

19 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

24 minutes ago, quxier said:

That's not how discusion goes. If there is a problem then people should speak.

There's no problem with the weapons. The problem is you selfishly demanding that a specific weapon, out of hundreds of weapons, be changed to suit you even though there's plenty of others who like the weapon as it is. If you don't like the weapon, simply don't use it. Full stop.

You may not have problem but OP has it. Even "selfishly demanding" is still "problem > solution" thing, WHICH YOU SHOULD DISCUSS not just deny it.

13 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

26 minutes ago, quxier said:

On player side it doesn't make sense. It's like let's slap some negative without giving us positive.

Which spool-up weapons don't have have any positives? 

Do they have any positives?

[Hexerin]

5 minutes ago, quxier said:

You may not have problem but OP has it. Even "selfishly demanding" is still "problem > solution" thing, WHICH YOU SHOULD DISCUSS not just deny it.

There's nothing to discuss. If you don't like the weapon, then don't use the weapon. There's hundreds of other options available to choose from.

[Tiltskillet]

11 minutes ago, quxier said:

Do they have any positives?

They all kill things so far as I know.  Maybe I don't understand your question.

[quxier]

12 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

25 minutes ago, quxier said:

Do they have any positives?

They all kill things so far as I know.  Maybe I don't understand your question.

You know what kind of gear can kill enemies? Probably everything that does any damage/status (e.g. Sunpoint minning tool, conservation gun maybe etc). That's not positive.

Positive/Negative, advantage/disadvantage pros/cons - those are very related terms. Objectively speaking why would you pick 'spool up' weapon? For example (very simplified):

- Kuva Brama has AoE (positive) but has low ammo (negative)

- Kuva chakhur are single target (mostly, negative) but hits harder (positive)

- Azima has "turret mode" that shoots enemies automatically for some time (positive) but consume lots of ammo (negative).

So you consider pros & cons. In real-life example (from my plays), in Zariman I use Kuva nukor to kill most enemies (AoE). K. Nukor isn't good for Angels. There I pick Kuva Chakkhur because it's hits harder.

 

So why I would pick "spool up" weapon where I can pick "constant fire rate" weapon and I would have better results. Constant fire rate means I should deal more damage. Do those weapons ('spool up') have some "place in game" where they are better than "constant fire rate" weapons? Do they deal more damage at some point that are much better than other weapon "types"? Are they much faster than other weapons?

[taiiat]

2 hours ago, MrDugan said:

But I can fire short bursts and single shots with pretty much any automatic weapon in the game.  I don't need a relatively long period of the weapon feeling too sleepy to fire at full speed for me to be able to do that.

i don't need it either, but i don't claim to speak for the entire Playerbase as to what assistances i need or do not need to have present in the game.

if you want another Gun, ask them to make another Gun. this is a F2P game, making 914t256379182567512986 pieces of Gear to get is a big part of the Business Model, they'd be happy to.

[Tiltskillet]

1 hour ago, quxier said:

So why I would pick "spool up" weapon where I can pick "constant fire rate" weapon and I would have better results.

Oh, well you wouldn't if you have better non-spooled weapons available, and don't care about reasons other than results.  But you could insert any other weapon attribute into that question and have the same answer.  Why pick projectile?  Why pick falloff?  Why pick charge-up? Why pick finite ammo?  Or the really common one, why pick non-AoE?  In a vacuum, all of these seem like valid questions, but we don't play in a vacuum.  Outside of Archwing, anyway. :P

Let's put it a different way....

Reading your last reply, if we weren't in a "delete spool up" thread, I might think you were complaining that we don't have good enough spool-up weapons.  And I'd probably agree, because Secura Dual Cestra kinda sucks, we don't have an advanced variant of Twin Kohmak, and Incarnon Soma doesn't do much for me in its regular mode, etc. (I don't have Incarnon Gorgon built yet.)

Since I don't hate auto-spool weapons innately, adding better ones seems like the natural solution to that.  Far more natural than "delete auto-spool" which still wont make these weapons competitive in  your Knukor and Bramma comparisons, or magically make them become turrets like the Azima.

[Fred_Avant_2019]

Not everything has to be a grakata.

A spool up function on an assault rifle also means you're not burning through your entire clip by accident when firing at a single enemy.

[MrDugan]

10 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

Which spool-up weapons don't have have any positives? 

What positives do you think they have over weapons without spool up aside from the theatrics?  They don't do anything special enough to warrant the downgrade, and that's the point.  The Kohm family has the increase in multishot, but that comes with increased ammo consumption, so there's already a con with that bonus.  There's zero benefit added to compensate for spool up, the same way they add negatives to compensate for positives.  Like the atrocious reload on Trumna.

[Tiltskillet]

10 minutes ago, MrDugan said:

What positives do you think they have over weapons without spool up aside from the theatrics?  They don't do anything special enough to warrant the downgrade, and that's the point.  The Kohm family has the increase in multishot, but that comes with increased ammo consumption, so there's already a con with that bonus.  There's zero benefit added to compensate for spool up, the same way they add negatives to compensate for positives.  Like the atrocious reload on Trumna.

I don't know if that's true.  But if they are weak for their MR and class, and maybe age, I think that's best addressed by buffing their stats or supplementing them with augments or variants rather than changing their character. 

Is "theatrics" meant to be an insult, or to imply I don't hold the positions I say I do?  I've been honest and polite and have tried to be understanding , and I don't know what I might have done to deserve it.  I certainly wouldn't put significant time into trolling a feedback thread for chuckles.

[voltocitygel]

I find the spool up weapons quite fun.

i also like immediate high rate of fire weapons.

but I use them differently-

spool up weapons can be used more effectively by holding the trigger against large groups of enemies or one tough one. Higher rate of fire guns with no spool up tend to be more accurate if fired in short bursts. 
 

They could use some buffs (except maybe the aksomati- mine are busted) but overall I think they’re fine and suit their purpose of high rate of fire guns with DPS that ramps up over time (multiplicitavly, in the case of the khom and khomak). 

The anti-spool logic has more traction against the gorgon and soma, which don’t gain more multishot as their fire rate spools, but still… I think they’re fine. 
spool up provides (in my opinion) better ammo economy control (or efficiency) and higher accuracy when compared to non-spooling weapons with similar stats. 

[MrDugan]

On 2024-03-04 at 12:35 AM, Tiltskillet said:

Is "theatrics" meant to be an insult

"Theatrics" is meant to be an insult, but not directed at you.  It's directed at the utterly pointless mechanic we're discussing because there is zero logical reason for most of those weapons to work that way.  No one would design an actual rifle like this on purpose.  In fact, for most firearms, even with caseless ammunition, you'd have to go out of your way to make it function like this.  And because it serves no purpose, it's for show.  Theatrics.