Grendel and Quick Thinkjng

[Sojufueled]

So with Quick Thinking and Gladiator Finesse you can get 300% conversion.

With Hunter Adrenaline you convert damage to energy.

With Nourish you get an energy multiplier.

 

Is there a level of power strength where Grendel goes infinite?

[CosoMalvadoNG]

You can still die.

 

hace 1 hora, Sojufueled dijo:

Is there a level of power strength where Grendel goes infinite?

No,  that not make sense in the first place. If so, it would need a nerf.

Edited March 15 by CosoMalvadoNG

[Tiltskillet]

1 hour ago, Sojufueled said:

Is there a level of power strength where Grendel goes infinite?

I don't think so.  Not against sufficient damage input due to Hunter Adrenaline and Rage not supplying energy while a frame is taking energy damage.   Of course Nourish is also a heal.  So as long as he's got enemies to eat it's easy for Grendel to go back to taking health damage. 

But then the question becomes, is QT really doing much compared to say, Rolling Guard or Adaptation etc.?  Or something that helps kill things faster?  Especially since at a certain point high enough damage spikes will circumvent QT entirely

I don't know, there might be a fun gimmick in there somewhere anyway, just having the extra buffer.  I'm just not seeing it right off.

[MarakViri]

I mean, kind of, yeah. Not technically, but effectively for most content. Obviously, if enemies one-shot you, then you will still die (as your energy pool doesn't really add much to your EHP), putting you straight into Bleed-Out. And, taking Energy Damage won't restore energy, so you need to heal before your energy runs out. Basically, he's better at it than some frames, but it still won't let you Health Tank max level enemies.

 

Firstly,  slot in both [Hunter's Adrenaline] and [Quick Thinking]. You don't need [Gladiator Finesse], but you can slot that in the flex slot if you like.

Next we want to maximise your heals. Slot both [Blind Rage] and [Transient Fortitude] into the build. This puts you at 254% Strength, giving Nourish a 3.54x Energy Multiplier, a 190% Viral Damage Buff, and a Heal equal to 2540 Health (more than double his base HP). This also give both Pulverise and Regurgitate a full armor strip, so your DPS increases there as well. If you want to use a Helminth Ability, subsume it over one of these two (obviously), though I would personally recommend replacing Pulverise as it becomes the least synergetic ability when you have a Helminth Ability, as you cannot use them while it is active.

Then, you want to increase your EHP. [Gourmand] is good for this, but I would recommend some variant of [Vitality] instead, but the regular one is the best on this build due to it's lower capacity. If you're using Thermal Sunder, then [Archon Vitality] is a better choice. Only use [Umbral Vitality] if you are going to use another Umbral mod in a flex slot, or you have an Umbral Polarity.

Next, you will probably want your alternate survival means of Shield Gating. Slot in [Catalyzing Shields] and [Augur Reach], and you have a very easy Shield Gate mechanic, as using any of your abilities (except Pulverise) will fully return your shields. Note that, if you have an augur mod elsewhere on your loadout, [Augur Reach] becomes a flex slot (though I recommend swapping it for [Stretch] in this situation to increase the effectiveness of Feast and Regurgitate.)

This leaves you with your Aura Slot, Exilus Slot, 1 Mod Slot, and 2 Arcane Slots. These are all flex slots, though there are options better than others.

 

Alternate means of Shield Gating here are using Condemn or Pillage as your Helminth ability. Condemn is probably better for that, though I still recommend neither of these, as it is so easily achieved without sacrificing something as valuable as an ability slot. 

 

The Build (1 Aura Forma + 3 Forma)

[Brief Respite] + [Primed Sure Footed]

[Blind Rage] + [Transient Fortitude] + [Quick Thinking] + [Hunter's Adrenaline] + [Vitality] + [Stretch] + [Primed Continuity] + [xxxxx]

[Arcane Blessing] + [Molt Augmented]

Helminth : Elemental Ward (Cold)

 

My Build (No Quick Thinking) (1 Aura Forma + 1 Forma)

[Brief Respite] + [Cunning Drift]

[Adaptation] + [Blind Rage] + [Hearty Nourishment] + [Overextended] + [Primed Continuity] + [Hunter's Adrenaline] + [Vitality] + [Stretch]

[Arcane Blessing] + [Molt Augmented]

Helminth : Elemental Ward (Cold)

 

My build is obviously different, but the general idea is the same. You have increased Health from Vitality, but still have a full heal through Nourish. In my build, I lose this (needing 2-3 casts), and the recommended build may need 2 casts if Blessing outstrips Augmented. Armor is provided through the Elemental Ward (Cold), providing between 368% and 441% (an additional 1472 to 1761 armor) for the suggested build and between 201% and 289% (804 to 1156) (but I have Adaptation), which significantly improves survivability. On the suggested build, this will provide a total armor value (assuming max Augmented, Elemental Ward, and a full stomach (for his passive)) of 3411, or 91.9% Damage Reduction. Obviously, you can swap out the Helminth for Heat Ward (or anything else) if you like, but this provides tremendous survivability on its own. My build, however, which only provides a maximum armor value of 2806, still provides a 90.3% Damage Reduction, under the same assumptions.

The augment mod provides status immunity (and the recommended build has PSF so you don't get knocked down if you can't maintain the buff), and both have increased range and duration to allow for better ease of use, as well as having Shield Gating on command with Brief Respite. If you are confident in not needing PSF (or you don't have it), running [Cunning Drift] will save you two forma. Note that it's easier to simply run my build and swap [Adaptation] for [Quick Thinking] and have no exilus (for less forma).

 

 

Edited March 15 by MarakViri

[Sojufueled]

6 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

I don't think so.  Not against sufficient damage input due to Hunter Adrenaline and Rage not supplying energy while a frame is taking energy damage.   Of course Nourish is also a heal.  So as long as he's got enemies to eat it's easy for Grendel to go back to taking health damage. 

But then the question becomes, is QT really doing much compared to say, Rolling Guard or Adaptation etc.?  Or something that helps kill things faster?  Especially since at a certain point high enough damage spikes will circumvent QT entirely

I don't know, there might be a fun gimmick in there somewhere anyway, just having the extra buffer.  I'm just not seeing it right off.

Yeah, the specifics of what is happening are a little fuzzy for me, but if you aren't getting energy for damage taken to energy it won't work.

[Aruquae]

Grendel has too small of an energy pool to make full use of quick thinking.

Doing that build would require sufficient strength for the energy multiplier+armor so your energy pool can be sustained, and maybe even adaptation if you’re still being shredded. You would also need primed flow at minimum for it to work. Another problem is sometimes… quick thinking just doesn’t register. No I’m not talking about the enemy doing so much damage where it doesn’t drain all your energy, I’m just talking about it straight up not working. 
Then there’s also a case where you will constantly be getting staggered. You need rage and hunter adrenaline to give you energy, and you need health to do that. Without sufficient healing, you’re not going to have a lot of energy for long.
Not to mention even with sufficient amounts of healing… are you draining too much energy to heal? Are you healing by small percentages that cause the quick thinking stagger? If you use that strategy you’ll be stunlocked for long period of time, which is a death sentence. 
 

As for the limit you’re referring to… no, there is no limit on how much strength for the multiplier. It doesn’t seem worth it though as pointed above. 

[Tiltskillet]

5 hours ago, Sojufueled said:

Yeah, the specifics of what is happening are a little fuzzy for me, but if you aren't getting energy for damage taken to energy it won't work.

Basically Hunter Adrenaline and Rage only confer energy on health damage; while Quick Thinking and Finesse make you take damage to energy instead as long as you're at 2hp.  (Or the energy runs out.  Or you take such a large damage spike that the energy pool wouldn't be enough to survive.)

 

[Birdframe_Prime]

As far as I understand it, DE built the answer to this into the mod itself.

Since the Quick Thinking effect prevents damage to your Health so that it cannot go below 2HP as long as you have energy, and since you cannot gain energy from Rage/Adrenaline if you do not take the damage, then the loop can never be infinite.

Once you hit 2HP you stop taking damage to your Health, and so can't benefit from the Rage effect. 

Nourish will allow you to take the Energy from your Rage effect to completely fill up your Energy Pool from taking enough damage in a short amount of time, but all you're effectively doing is... maybe putting a third again onto your effective Health Pool.

And, to top that off, if you don't have the Energy because you drained too much with Quick Thinking, this will mean you can't cast your abilities, you definitely won't if you used Blind Rage to get the high Strength.