LoS Fixes for Dante’s Tragedy coming in next Hotfix

[MrDugan]

It's hilarious that you expect us to have faith that you're actually capable of fixing the LOS mechanics, considering that you've ignored this problem on multiple frames for literal years.

He needed no nerfs.  Every nerf this patch needs to be rolled back.

[Waeleto]

Just now, MrDugan said:

It's hilarious that you expect us to have faith

Nah cause fr how did Rebecca translate these changes to "tweak" or "a little bit of a nerf" ? she also said the devblog was gonna be posted BEFORE the patch so we can discuss the changes but that never happened

[Tuna4242]

13 hours ago, Ocerkin said:

full revert, cut the OG given to teammates, thats the only thing that people were asking for

yes yes yes, the only actual issue with dante was that his support function of giving allies OG was hurting some builds. He was not OP, he was strong but balanced enough for the current state of the game.

 

2 hours ago, Waeleto said:

Nah cause fr how did Rebecca translate these changes to "tweak" or "a little bit of a nerf" ? she also said the devblog was gonna be posted BEFORE the patch so we can discuss the changes but that never happened

Yeah I feel a little insulted by reb telling us that these would be "careful tweaks", these were too harsh on dante and don't address the single issue that people had with dante. I personally think DE did not do a good job at assessing our feedback.

 

2 hours ago, MrDugan said:

It's hilarious that you expect us to have faith that you're actually capable of fixing the LOS mechanics, considering that you've ignored this problem on multiple frames for literal years.

He needed no nerfs.  Every nerf this patch needs to be rolled back.

The CC nerfs especially rubbed me the wrong way, DE could have gotten much less negative feedback if they didn't also add in a bunch of nerfs to CC, crowd control is already hanging on by a thread.

[Siic07]

Reverting the changes is very simple 😤

[EgorSava]

10 часов назад, [DE]Megan сказал:

We've been poring over your comments regarding the balance changes to Dante. We want to reiterate that we are paying close attention to player feedback and taking these conversations very seriously. As with everything in Warframe, iteration is always possible, and we’ll be keeping a close eye on how Dante feels now that these alterations are in your hands. 

One of the clearest pain points from the community is the inconsistencies in Tragedy’s Line of Sight (LOS) checks, and we can confirm that the following changes are already on deck for an upcoming hotfix: 

• Tragedy not hitting ragdolled enemies that are within LOS

• Increasing the number of LOS checks per enemy to improve the reliability of marginal hits 

We are still actively reading your feedback and encourage you to continue to share your constructive thoughts after spending time playing Dante with the changes. Thank you to everyone who has shared their thoughts with us thus far!

--
To add to the above, it's very obvious to us, as it is with players, that Tragedy's LOS is clearly not in an ideal state due to the bugs we listed above. It's not working as intended and we want to remedy that as soon as we can. Once the fixes go live, we'll be watching for your thoughts as you experience it the way was designed to function.  

 

the problem is not only that you did not implement it well, the problem is that it is initially a bad idea for corridor locations with constant height differences and a bunch of objects.
To create a combination of two abilities and an ultimate ability in order to hit 1-1.5 opponents is simply ridiculous

 

[Syphiss]

I want to add my voice as well. Dante has been one of the most fun new frame, requiring an active playstyle to get the most out of him. You're always casting, which was the purpose of this wizard, right? Being active and thinking about the combo is not something you find on every frame and that's why Dante was and felt so smooth to play.

Please DE, full revert. And as others said: keep the OG nerf to allies or even make it an augment. Dante's damages were not so great in high level content, it's now barely impacting enemies. Please remove the inconsistent LoS check. I don't want to remember Dante as being "that frame I bought and only enjoyed for a week".

[Operativ]

Keep the changes and iterate further across all warframes that stand out (eg. Kullervo). Then bring enemies a rebalance as well, so they don't scale into hundreds or thousands of levels to be challenging due to how damage and armour are currently constructed. I suggest to think outside of the box with a Warframe-wide rebalance, rather than trying to stick with individual warframes - otherwise each new addition will just power creep and further unbalance the entire thing.

[MrDugan]

20 minutes ago, Waeleto said:

Nah cause fr how did Rebecca translate these changes to "tweak" or "a little bit of a nerf" ? she also said the devblog was gonna be posted BEFORE the patch so we can discuss the changes but that never happened

They saw the forums and they knew what that devblog thread was going to look like.  So instead of listening, they pushed this mess out.  That dev blog was going to be lip service.

[JackTheSwordman]

Don't fix the LoS, remove it completely .
The only instance where this nerf would be okay is if this wasn't a power fantasy horde shooter where you have to deal with hundreds of enemies per mission and if it weren't for the several more powerful and easier to get nuking frames that outshine Dante in every aspect.

[NeDesitVirtus]

11 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

We've been poring over your comments regarding the balance changes to Dante. We want to reiterate that we are paying close attention to player feedback and taking these conversations very seriously. As with everything in Warframe, iteration is always possible, and we’ll be keeping a close eye on how Dante feels now that these alterations are in your hands. 

One of the clearest pain points from the community is the inconsistencies in Tragedy’s Line of Sight (LOS) checks, and we can confirm that the following changes are already on deck for an upcoming hotfix: 

• Tragedy not hitting ragdolled enemies that are within LOS

• Increasing the number of LOS checks per enemy to improve the reliability of marginal hits 

We are still actively reading your feedback and encourage you to continue to share your constructive thoughts after spending time playing Dante with the changes. Thank you to everyone who has shared their thoughts with us thus far!

--
To add to the above, it's very obvious to us, as it is with players, that Tragedy's LOS is clearly not in an ideal state due to the bugs we listed above. It's not working as intended and we want to remedy that as soon as we can. Once the fixes go live, we'll be watching for your thoughts as you experience it the way was designed to function.  

 

I think a solution might come from a slightly different angle. I just want to address the overguard issue in general. 

Hunter Adrenaline, Rage, and Chroma's Vex Armor require damage to health to proc their given effects. Combat Discipline currently serves to impact "health" per enemy kill. 

Overguard prevents this. 

Possibly there could be coded that "any damage"  to include damage to overguard suffice to trigger these effects. 

Another option is to create a 2 tier system whereby there is globally modified max overguard value based on regular vs. steel path content leaving all overguard values as-is but reducing it across the board by 50% for example for non Steel Path content. 

This, in consideration of the amount of overguard that would be commensurate and appropriate for said content scaling with enemy until parity is met with base Steel Path levels equalling the base level of overguard achievable by each warframe. 

 

[-ShadowRadiance-]

47 minutes ago, Waeleto said:

Nah cause fr how did Rebecca translate these changes to "tweak" or "a little bit of a nerf" ? she also said the devblog was gonna be posted BEFORE the patch so we can discuss the changes but that never happened

Cause thet knew we would bite back. But we did anyhow and hopefully harder then they expecred. I msan we are reaching 40 PAGES of ppl being mad.

This is beyond screwed up.

 

I REALLY want to be a fly on the wall in DEs dmg control centre right now. (With popcorn)

[Waeleto]

Just now, -ShadowRadiance- said:

Cause thet knew we would bite back. But we did anyhow and hopefully harder then they expecred. I msan we are reaching 40 PAGES of ppl being mad.

This is beyond screwed up.

 

I REALLY want to be a fly on the wall in DEs dmg control centre right now. (With popcorn)

the REAL show begins today when the new hotfix arrives, will they listen or will they ignore feedback YET AGAIN 

[-ShadowRadiance-]

1 minute ago, Waeleto said:

will they listen or will they ignore feedback YET AGAIN 

If they ignore 40 pages. Of ppl saying revert. 

They will loose ALOT of customers. Paying customers.

I really hope they realise how big a mistake that patch was.

[Waeleto]

1 minute ago, -ShadowRadiance- said:

If they ignore 40 pages. Of ppl saying revert. 

They will loose ALOT of customers. Paying customers.

I really hope they realise how big a mistake that patch was.

Oh yeah definitely, i already decided i'm not buying new warframes on release again 

[-ShadowRadiance-]

3 minutes ago, Waeleto said:

Oh yeah definitely, i already decided i'm not buying new warframes on release again 

I have bought. Every frame on release day. 

Since titania.

I might actually farn Jade out of protest depending how they handle this.

[nicolajtheking2]

5 hours ago, Awaidaqor said:

Just do note that the reason players were having so much fun with Dante was because there's no LoS check on him. It's extremely frustrating. Please look at Brozime's short, showing that a desk can block his Tragedy. 

Edit : I didn't see you made a video showing improvements on LoS. I appreciate a lot your commitment but, firstly this should be applied to LoS in general, and secondly I still don't trust LoS in a "having fun" point of view. Actually I don't like the general concept of LoS and I'm not the only one, simply because Warframe is a game full of collisions that will inevitably cause inconsistencies with LoS checks. Not only that, but just having to reposition yourself because there are multiple corridors for example is strictly annoying.

Dante not having LoS was truly the thing that made him so fun to use. I wouldn't mind if he didn't share his overguard to allies at all.

Here is the short:

Spoiler

 

 

1 hour ago, Waeleto said:

the REAL show begins today when the new hotfix arrives, will they listen or will they ignore feedback YET AGAIN 

Let's be real, DE does not even know what the word 'feedback' even means...

[query0]

Please revert !!!

[artistredmdlee]

For the LoS changes, the conversation has seemed to had devolved into whether there should be LoS in Warframe or not.
Instead of arguing for one side or the other, lets just look at how this conversation has been approached in the past and DE's POV on this topic.

A good sample of that is Khora's Whip Claw LoS changes
The rational back then was that  "The change was made to encourage a more active play style with Whipclaw." this fits into the criteria that it AUTOMATES PLAY
The Goal of this change was "Moving away from whipping at walls to damage enemies on the other side with more incentive to 'seek and snipe."

The fix that was implemented was "Khora's Whipclaw line of sight checks are now a little more generous", "No longer with small rocks and detailed floor geometry block Whipclaw's explosion! Enemies behind that cover will not be hit by Whipclaw if you hit the front of the object that enemies are hunkering down behind. However if you strategically hit beside them, you will vanquish your foes."

BTW this LoS "Nerf" didn't wreck Khora or their play rates, they're still strong and is among the top 5 played frames
From this we can say that DE doesn't intend to make the ability entirely useless but to make it less lazy/braindead to play.
I expect the same treatment on Dante and based from the title of this thread, that seems to be the goal.

People had been acting as if the goal was to make the ability entirely useless when they're actually aiming for an in between which is reasonable if you're gonna base your expectations on what has already been done or had been communicated instead of what "I" want.

12 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

One of the clearest pain points from the community is the inconsistencies in Tragedy’s Line of Sight (LOS) checks, and we can confirm that the following changes are already on deck for an upcoming hotfix: 

• Tragedy not hitting ragdolled enemies that are within LOS

• Increasing the number of LOS checks per enemy to improve the reliability of marginal hits 

 

[sunnoel]

I hope you’ll give us fun to play dante again & also is there away DE u can put the damage stack for dante just like (equinox, saryn) ❤️

[Th3bl4cksm1th]

did anyone actually consult the playerbase first before doing this nerf? oh i wish this is just a test run and not a permanent thing. Nerf the frame a bit, sure, but not like this. Theres got to be something better than this crap.

Edited April 5 by Th3bl4cksm1th

[nicolajtheking2]

2 minutes ago, Th3bl4cksm1th said:

did anyone actually consult the player base before doing this nerf? 

Simple answer: NO

[artistredmdlee]

4 minutes ago, Th3bl4cksm1th said:

did anyone actually consult the playerbase first before doing this nerf? oh i wish this is just a test run and not a permanent thing. Nerf the frame a bit, sure, but not like this. Theres got to be something better than this crap.

 

1 minute ago, nicolajtheking2 said:

Simple answer: NO

Wasn't it that this entire situation happen because the "playerbase" was calling for a nerf xD

[-Felix-sama-]

You can't determine a frame is "dominant" after they have been out for 6 days. Even pre-nerf, he was no Revenant or Saryn.

Fully revert the changes,

or,

implement an investment refund system for nerfed frames. There's no way I should have to spend 150% bile to remove 5 archon shards from him, and never get those forma back, on a frame who is never going to compete with the meta options.

 

[Waeleto]

Just now, artistredmdlee said:

Wasn't it that this entire situation happen because the "playerbase" was calling for a nerf xD

Define "playerbase"

Is it 10 angry people on the forums ? 
(mind you those 10 angry people ask for everything to be nerfed not just dante)

[Sudri]

11 hours ago, Stormandreas said:

Those crying about the dante changes. Seethe harder.

I don't apolagize for that remark. It's true, Dante was wildly overtuned. Is he dead now? LOL no. Not at all.

Actually go ingame, and play him. Try it, it's absolutely fine. He still generates Overguard for FREE, he still nukes entire rooms pretty easily.
The only problem he really has is Acolytes and energy consumption (due to requiring 3 ability casts to do his nuke)

The solution? The story simply needs to not be deleted after casting

Petulant, inflammatory language aside, Yes having verses not be consumed in the process of using Final verse would definitely help keep the frame fun to use while still being within reasonable power levels. Assuming the LoS issues are resolved and end up being consistent.