[Dante Unbound] Our plans for next week (35.5.6)

[(XBOX)toughdragon17]

31 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

He's still as strong as before after the nerf outside of star chart.

Truly no no hes not he was almost sayren level before the nerf and they took that fun away 

[LordOfKenpo]

Just now, (XBOX)toughdragon17 said:

Truly no no hes not he was almost sayren level before the nerf and they took that fun away 

He wasn't close to Saryn level, he could do to a small/medium size room what Saryn does to multiple rooms at once

[Gaxxian]

Ok, some numbers for context. I have my 439% Strenght Dante ready for some number crunch with Tragedy.

This is the dmg when I look at the ability: This means that each enemy (not primed) will receive that damage. At low levels, that damage is capable to kill anything but I will test it against SteelPath level 195 corrupted grinners.

Let's see how that BIG NUMBER goes there:

Results:

- Corrupted Butcher: 14843
- Corrupted Lancer: 321
- Corrupted Bombard: 131
- Corrupted Heavy Gunner: 295
- Corrupted Warden: 288

So, it's "good" to kill Corrupted Butchers. Do we really need that damage in high level play?
I mean, if this was the problem that made DE to add LoS in first place (not like we know, because they are insultingly silent and opaque towards the community), then between reducing range or remove that Dmg, i prefer to remove that meager damage than to cripple the ability reducing the range (thus, making it bad to clear several groups... like LoS again, but in another shape).

Ofc, the best thing would be to just revert all changes. But if thats not possible, then -Dmg is preferable over anything else (LoS and range included).

Edited April 9 by Gaxxian
Corrected the Strenght of the build and typos

[MetalMechabolic]

Just now, LordOfKenpo said:

He wasn't close to Saryn level, he could do to a small/medium size room what Saryn does to multiple rooms at once

Man, we keep invoking Saryn's name but i'm worried that will just mean that Saryn get's the LoS treatment as well.  Shush, I like having OP frames!  I just got it last week from the circuit, don't ruin my fun! lol

[Circle_of_Psi]

1 minute ago, MetalMechabolic said:

Man, we keep invoking Saryn's name but i'm worried that will just mean that Saryn get's the LoS treatment as well.  Shush, I like having OP frames!  I just got it last week from the circuit, don't ruin my fun! lol

_{^{say goodbye}}

[MetalMechabolic]

11 minutes ago, Circle_of_Psi said:

_{^{say goodbye}}

_{*Eternal NOOOOOOOOOO! in the distance*}

Edited April 9 by MetalMechabolic

[LordOfKenpo]

2 minutes ago, MetalMechabolic said:

Man, we keep invoking Saryn's name but i'm worried that will just mean that Saryn get's the LoS treatment as well.  Shush, I like having OP frames!  I just got it last week from the circuit, don't ruin my fun! lol

Nerfing Saryn at this point would make too many people quit playing, it would be a massive loss to the game. I know streamers who said if that happens they're going to quit warframe. Also Saryn is a known quantity who's been around a while. The point we're trying to make is that Dante's Tragedy did not meet the characteristics for nerfing. The 3 pillars given were:

1. AFK play - He definitely required moving around the battlefield to strategically use dark verse/weapons to prime enemies (which requires LoS already) and then get ot a spot ot nuke them, so it was definitely not AFK play
2. Interruption to other players playing - At low levels, you could possibly say this did, but it takes 3 abilities each whereas most other frames have faster nukes for low level enemies (Thermal Sunder is a helminth ability that does it)
3. Dominating play - They didn't even give this one time to figure out since he had only been out a week. Most people who didn't buy him, had him for maybe 2-3 days before the nerf since you had to farm and then wait 3.5 days. He was also an easy frame to farm with multiple ways to purchase, was heavily advertised, and was the only update at the time since DA was delayed so of course everyone was playing him. He was the shiny new frame and was fun and much of that would've died down in the coming weeks/months

[SneakyErvin]

16 minutes ago, MetalMechabolic said:

I wouldn't think it's THAT crazy and, more than likely, they are being a bit hyperbolic.  That said, I can destroy the normal starchart with Saryn without worrying about LoS because of the toxic damage ramping up the longer you are poisoning enemies.  At times the toxic damage was so potent the group of enemies that ran into the room died before I even get a shot off because Saryn's toxic spores don't care about LoS.  After that, seeing DE taking Dante out back with the first nerf felt real strange since a newbie like me can see how some frames like Saryn can make normal starchart maps ezpz.

And I think that applies to several things regarding Dante and the nerfs. I am constantly wondering if people are actually playing him when they spew forth some of the things they do, since some of it is outlandish to say the least. Which is why I supported the change suggested earlier, since it is sensible in all reasoning and also honest regarding the state of LoS atm. I'm fairly sure that if they remove LoS on Tragedy, the next step will be people screaming and demanding that the LoS on Dark Verse should be "reverted" even though it always was intended to be a LoS skill. Because that is the mentality of most of the current "muh Danti!" crowd.

Regarding Saryn. As I implied to the other fellow about sunder. Just because something already exsists it doesnt mean they need to leave the flood gates open. I'd much rather see LoS added to Saryn if they can get LoS to work, since it would be healthier for the whole game. They can even compensate it by doing something about her total decay or reapplication decay cost. However, I also think they should be careful about the LoS implementations and apply it on a skill-to-skill basis. Skills that can reach a whole map certainly needs it, but not in all cases, since some have other mechanical interactions that stop what they can or cannot hit. Like Lavos 4, which reaches far far far, but only hit things around the actual physical part of the skill, meaning it balances itself out the further it reaches, since the gap between those physical parts of the skill ends up wide in the end. Miasma is also a skill that wouldnt fit with a LoS, since it is an airborne virus. There are many things they can do with the skills to balance them better to allow no-Los or require LoS.

12 minutes ago, EnviroUnit said:

Oh, but I won't, that's the point. I don't feel the need to engage in some aggressive campaign fused with vulgarity just because someone disagreed with me. Also, would you mind sharing your build that's unimpeded by current nerfs? And please don't tell me that it involves a meta weapon, Huras Kubrow with Mecha Set and Roar. Just, just, please don't.

+200% ish strength, +30% efficiency, enough +duration for 90sec buffs, +35% cast speed, Nourish instead of book, Energy Nexus, +45% range. Book modded for pure heat and crit and as much status as possible. 

Weapons: Torid, Grimoire (energy utility on demand) and Dual Ichor.

Pet: Smeeta currently since I have 40+ days more of 2x loot boosts active, otherwise it will end up being either Panzer, Robo-dog or Adarza.

Focus: Naramon so I can build combo overtime and never have it drop to much for when I need to hit something.

Weapon most used is Grimoire in order to make Book start attacking and for buffing up Xata.

17 minutes ago, LordOfKenpo said:

I have played him a lot since the nerf and what I noticed is I have had to change my playstyle significantly to get less results. Before I would use dark verse on multiple groups of enemies and then position myself between them to hit them all with tragedy which usually killed or at least did significant damage to all/most of them. This was like culmination onf multiple abilities and strategic placement to get this effect. Now I have to basically use the full dark verse/tragedy on each group which significantly reduces the level of thought/strategy used to play him as well as costing far more energy for the same effect.

How is it costing you more if you didnt kill things earlier and had to redo the rotation? Anything beyond 3+3 before doing 4 is a waste. So playing him in a "Kullervo", "Dagath" or "Protea" style was already more beneficial than trying to pull off some 360 killing.

14 minutes ago, (XBOX)toughdragon17 said:

Truly no no hes not he was almost sayren level before the nerf and they took that fun away 

He was far ahead of Saryn.

 

[MetalMechabolic]

3 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Regarding Saryn. As I implied to the other fellow about sunder. Just because something already exsists it doesnt mean they need to leave the flood gates open. I'd much rather see LoS added to Saryn if they can get LoS to work, since it would be healthier for the whole game.

He was far ahead of Saryn.

 

Man, even as a newbie I know that is a bit skewed.  Dante required a couple of presses to delete rooms.  Saryn just has to pop some bubbles and all the enemies in the room and adjacent rooms melt.  Now if you are talking about nerfing Saryn to justify Dante's nerf...

[(XBOX)toughdragon17]

18 minutes ago, LordOfKenpo said:

He wasn't close to Saryn level, he could do to a small/medium size room what Saryn does to multiple rooms at once

He use to be able to clear multiple rooms as saryn dos with good range mods but now he can barly clear a small to medium room and that gos down if the frame, a small object and yes A SHADOW is in the way 

[LordOfKenpo]

3 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

I'm fairly sure that if they remove LoS on Tragedy, the next step will be people screaming and demanding that the LoS on Dark Verse should be "reverted" even though it always was intended to be a LoS skill.

Dark verse is a priming ability so LoS makes sense on it. Tragedy is a trigger ability that detonates the damage you've already primed. With Tragedy also having LoS, it effectively doubles the LoS requirement of the ability since you need LoS to prime and detonate. The base damage of Tragedy is trivial outside of low level missions. On those missions you can't even prime enemies since Dark verse will one shot them anyways.

1 minute ago, (XBOX)toughdragon17 said:

He use to be able to clear multiple rooms as saryn dos with good range mods but now he can barly clear a small to medium room and that gos down if the frame, a small object and yes A SHADOW is in the way 

nah, he can't clear the vast majority of rooms anymore since most have some sort of decorations that will block LoS and he can't see most rooms fully at once anyway

[fallencomets]

i can't log into the game neither on ps4 nor pc and it's been more than 30 hours!... 

[Nimogrea]

8 hours ago, RavlinWasTaken said:

We are not playing the same frame... If you are struggling to kill lvl 50 then unfortunately you should not be chiming into this conversation. Dante is easily capable of clearing 50-meter SP rooms in levels of Thousands. I genuinely do not understand so much of what is happening in these forums, it's like no one has actually played Dante and is just screaming to be part of something.
 

Even the people saying the hotfix was rushed? It was no more rushed than any hotfix in the past. T.T

Mate, what part of "unprimed" do you not understand? I fully understand that dante can clear rooms that he's primed with his 3 in steel path. That's not the issue, the thing that people keep saying is that he can stand in one spot and spam his 4 killing entire maps out of his LoS which isn't the case unless you're only doing hydron. The game shouldn't be balanced around hydron levels. This hot fix was rushed because they implemented a change to a brand new warframe with practically zero data to backup the need for said nerf. If people were playing him during his launch week it's because he was new and exciting and easy to get from a fun game mode that just got tweaked.

 

3 hours ago, Stelthmastr said:

This is not true at all. Dante nukes Steel Path enemies with no problems. Eximus units might need priming (a few shots from the Epitaph or even the Kuva Ogris works), but Dante can go to level cap and still perform because of his slash procs without issues. If you are experiencing issues with the damage from his 4, I'd recommend referencing one of the build guides on the official Discord or Overframe.

You have fundamentally misunderstood what I said. You prime enemies with your 3, if they do not have the slash procs from your 3 then you will not be doing much of anything past level 50 with tragedy. It's as simple as that. Anybody complaining about tragedy nuking entire maps without LoS is complaining about the base damage of tragedy, not it with slash procs. This is also only viable on base star chart, and only up to level 50ish at that. I do steel path plenty with dante because i enjoy his playstyle, and his damage is acceptable.

Edited April 9 by Nimogrea
formating

[Stelthmastr]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)toughdragon17 said:

Nope he starts falling off bad after 500 and the level cap is 9999 even with 420% strength i can barely get him to 1000 without having major problems my weapons even have rivers and arcanes  im fully built and still have trouble 

No, he doesn't. You may need to look at your build. You don't need rivens on your weapons for Dante's Tragedy nukes.

[BloodyPrimeSkull]

Goodbye, Dante, have a good trip to oblivion.

Spoiler

 

[Nero.DMC]

53 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

And I think that applies to several things regarding Dante and the nerfs. I am constantly wondering if people are actually playing him when they spew forth some of the things they do, since some of it is outlandish to say the least. Which is why I supported the change suggested earlier, since it is sensible in all reasoning and also honest regarding the state of LoS atm. I'm fairly sure that if they remove LoS on Tragedy, the next step will be people screaming and demanding that the LoS on Dark Verse should be "reverted" even though it always was intended to be a LoS skill. Because that is the mentality of most of the current "muh Danti!" crowd.

Regarding Saryn. As I implied to the other fellow about sunder. Just because something already exsists it doesnt mean they need to leave the flood gates open. I'd much rather see LoS added to Saryn if they can get LoS to work, since it would be healthier for the whole game. They can even compensate it by doing something about her total decay or reapplication decay cost. However, I also think they should be careful about the LoS implementations and apply it on a skill-to-skill basis. Skills that can reach a whole map certainly needs it, but not in all cases, since some have other mechanical interactions that stop what they can or cannot hit. Like Lavos 4, which reaches far far far, but only hit things around the actual physical part of the skill, meaning it balances itself out the further it reaches, since the gap between those physical parts of the skill ends up wide in the end. Miasma is also a skill that wouldnt fit with a LoS, since it is an airborne virus. There are many things they can do with the skills to balance them better to allow no-Los or require LoS.

+200% ish strength, +30% efficiency, enough +duration for 90sec buffs, +35% cast speed, Nourish instead of book, Energy Nexus, +45% range. Book modded for pure heat and crit and as much status as possible. 

Weapons: Torid, Grimoire (energy utility on demand) and Dual Ichor.

Pet: Smeeta currently since I have 40+ days more of 2x loot boosts active, otherwise it will end up being either Panzer, Robo-dog or Adarza.

Focus: Naramon so I can build combo overtime and never have it drop to much for when I need to hit something.

Weapon most used is Grimoire in order to make Book start attacking and for buffing up Xata.

How is it costing you more if you didnt kill things earlier and had to redo the rotation? Anything beyond 3+3 before doing 4 is a waste. So playing him in a "Kullervo", "Dagath" or "Protea" style was already more beneficial than trying to pull off some 360 killing.

He was far ahead of Saryn.

 

if he was too strong they should have nerfed him, in reality he was not too strong, they said so themselves, they were happy with his damage.

That being said they decided to nerf him anyway, and by nerfing him i meant they decided to remove QoL for him, he is not weaker than before if you are in a open space, he is insanely weak in enclosed spaces tho, so wich is it, was he that strong? then why not nerf him correctly instead of this half assed nerf... the answer is they panicked as they always do Dante was being used too much and sadly he was intervening with ppl that needed to be damaged (he still does) and isntead of balancing him they removed QoL so less people would play him.

The problem i have is they did not nerf him they just make him annoyin to play, and i played him a lot, still play him, just in any place were you are in small spaces he feels so weak, its disgusting and annoying 3 cast to kill a few enemies, literally my weapon outdps my abilities by a LOT in enclosed spaces, if i am using 100+ energy i expect something out of it, and with damage abilities sadly killing 5 enemies does not feel good.

 

[MetalMechabolic]

*stream started*

*already full of <message deleted>*

Yup, it's an official developer stream!  Time to get cozy!~

[LordOfKenpo]

Sounds like no plans to remove LOS

[Nero.DMC]

4 minutes ago, MetalMechabolic said:

*stream started*

*already full of <message deleted>*

Yup, it's an official developer stream!  Time to get cozy!~

What a #*!%ing joke they said "try the new LoS" and we can speak in the future... they are not going to do S#&amp;&#036;, i knew it...

we already tried them and we dont like them...

Edited April 9 by Nero.DMC

[Waeleto]

So it's basically "nerf range remove LoS" or "keep range keep LoS"

I'm gonna be honest, despite being against LoS from the start it might be the lesser evil here, Dante not having to build more than 1 range mod allows him to be VERY powerful and i don't want that to change 

[ShaloomHD]

remove the base damage on dante 4 has its a trigger skill anyways  the lesser evil would be has is 4 only nukes star chart

Edited April 9 by ShaloomHD

[Nero.DMC]

5 minutes ago, Waeleto said:

So it's basically "nerf range remove LoS" or "keep range keep LoS"

I'm gonna be honest, despite being against LoS from the start it might be the lesser evil here, Dante not having to build more than 1 range mod allows him to be VERY powerful and i don't want that to change 

until you play in enclosed tiles at that pont might as well not have tragedy

[SamaelWar]

They said maybe gonna shrink the range of Dante's 4th ability which would be better think to do instead to try again to fix the buggy LoS thingy which nobody wants. But first of course gonna try fix it... again....

[SneakyErvin]

44 minutes ago, MetalMechabolic said:

Man, even as a newbie I know that is a bit skewed.  Dante required a couple of presses to delete rooms.  Saryn just has to pop some bubbles and all the enemies in the room and adjacent rooms melt.  Now if you are talking about nerfing Saryn to justify Dante's nerf...

3 presses yes, over and over, but he also hit everything on the map with that third press. There is time to actually kill things with a Saryn around, but Dante was like an accumulated Enox, where he popped the baloons instantly. But I also do think Saryn needs some form of nerf overall. With stretch and augur reach, Dante covered a whole defense map from edge to edge pretty much. And it isnt just that he wipes things on lower maps, he is overall a better frames than Saryn since he has instant access to scaling damage, which ignores armor and can be built somewhat reliably to ignore shields aswell (as if he would need it with the damage he deals). 

The main issue is that people talk as if he went from this monster DPS into Calibum. He is still a monster DPS and still one of the best frames in the game in practically every aspect with defensive and offensive buffs to provide for his team and himself. The only thing he doesnt really have is a way to defend objectives.

57 minutes ago, LordOfKenpo said:

Dark verse is a priming ability so LoS makes sense on it. Tragedy is a trigger ability that detonates the damage you've already primed. With Tragedy also having LoS, it effectively doubles the LoS requirement of the ability since you need LoS to prime and detonate. The base damage of Tragedy is trivial outside of low level missions. On those missions you can't even prime enemies since Dark verse will one shot them anyways.

And it is due to those low missions it was nerfed since it was according to DE disruptive going by what they've said earlier in connection to Wukong and AoE changes. Yes I agree it is trivial damage outside lowbie missions and I wouldnt mind if it was removed together with LoS because it would keep him just as strong as he is for SP and beyond, while letting people skip around and prime things. I mean, there is little reason for him to nuke whole lowbie maps, since the missions will be cleared fast anyways with more people getting to do thing and with less risk you get a numbnut scribe that kills reactant flow in low fissures aswell. It is also better if that damage portion is removed since it will learn players how to play him higher up as they progress.

12 minutes ago, Nero.DMC said:

if he was too strong they should have nerfed him, in reality he was not too strong, they said so themselves, they were happy with his damage.

That being said they decided to nerf him anyway, and by nerfing him i meant they decided to remove QoL for him, he is not weaker than before if you are in a open space, he is insanely weak in enclosed spaces tho, so wich is it, was he that strong? then why not nerf him correctly instead of this half assed nerf... the answer is they panicked as they always do Dante was being used too much and sadly he was intervening with ppl that needed to be damaged (he still does) and isntead of balancing him they removed QoL so less people would play him.

The problem i have is they did not nerf him they just make him annoyin to play, and i played him a lot, still play him, just in any place were you are in small spaces he feels so weak, its disgusting and annoying 3 cast to kill a few enemies, literally my weapon outdps my abilities by a LOT in enclosed spaces, if i am using 100+ energy i expect something out of it, and with damage abilities sadly killing 5 enemies does not feel good.

There are different states of what they can consider happy with his damage. The damage is intact, the way to deal the damage changed, since it was likely considered disruptive. It had little impact where it matters (SP and above), so it wasnt a nerf to the damage itself.

And how is he nerfed in enclosed spaces? He always needed LoS due to Dark Verse. He is only changed in low content where others help you keep up the overall speed anyways. In those places you can instead you run around and Dark Verse things to death, yeah sure you wont clear the whole map per cast, but others will also have something little to do. A basline 30m 50 degree cone with slash damage should be... uhm sufficient to do low content quickly.

[LordOfKenpo]

1 minute ago, SneakyErvin said:

And it is due to those low missions it was nerfed since it was according to DE disruptive going by what they've said earlier in connection to Wukong and AoE changes. Yes I agree it is trivial damage outside lowbie missions and I wouldnt mind if it was removed together with LoS because it would keep him just as strong as he is for SP and beyond, while letting people skip around and prime things. I mean, there is little reason for him to nuke whole lowbie maps, since the missions will be cleared fast anyways with more people getting to do thing and with less risk you get a numbnut scribe that kills reactant flow in low fissures aswell. It is also better if that damage portion is removed since it will learn players how to play him higher up as they progress.

I can do the same sort of thing with Ember. But the idea of Ember needing a nerf because I can nuke Hydron is silly.