The hotfix and associated patch notes are tone deaf.

[MrDugan]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

Why people even feel a need to hit things behind them is uhm hard to grasp.

It's the insane nonsense like this that made me block you on my old account.  You'll literally say any completely insane thing to defend DE.  I don't think I'll block you again though, because it's honestly amusing watching you do olympic level mental gymnastics.

[crazywolfpusher]

4 minutes ago, MetalMechabolic said:

Didn't seem that hard to me.  Pop spores on enemy, get group infected, run to anther group before stacks fall and apply to new group.  Run to previous group to loot as the other side is dying and repeat.  Though I managed to create a bottleneck in a greenier map while farming terillum and got in a situation where I was borderline passive farming.  After having that power, it blows me away that DE sees Dante as an issue but let this go on for whoever knows how long, lmao.  

I'd say my Saryn it's quite decent. This was last night Lua Conjuction Omnia Fissure. 

Dante with just skills did 737 kills. Half of my Saryn kills were melee, and not any melee.

Dante is perfectly fine, it just need some extra adjustments on the LoS.

[(XBOX)K1jker]

vor 27 Minuten schrieb Roble_Viejo:

Poor taste is launching a new Warframe, including him in 2 Platinum Bundles
and 1 Supporter Pack and then nerfing him into the ground less than a week later

The backlash of Dante nerf is absolutely justified
and Players have the right to say what they think

This! 

vor 14 Minuten schrieb MrDugan:

It's the insane nonsense like this that made me block you on my old account.  You'll literally say any completely insane thing to defend DE.  I don't think I'll block you again though, because it's honestly amusing watching you do olympic level mental gymnastics.

Give it to him. 

[MrDugan]

3 minutes ago, crazywolfpusher said:

Dante with just skills did 737 kills.

There's zero proof of it being "with just skills." in this screen shot.  He's got a miter with Furax Wraith, which means it's very likely an incarnon Miter, which is very strong.  No melee kills tells me that he's using Furax for the amalgam mod to boost fire rate on the Grimoire.  There'd be no reason for them to select a strong primary and synergistic secondary/melee if all they're doing is spamming skills.  All of the numbers shown in this screen shot point in directions you don't think they point.  Dante can't even keep up with a Saryn who's main source of kills is using Toxic Lash and Incarnon Dual Ichor, rather than spamming 1/4.  There's nothing about that, that even suggests anything close to "dominance."  He didn't even do that much better than the Harrow, and that's a support frame.  Based on the frames the Dante was in the squad with, and their weapons, there should have been enough DOT procs floating around to have a much higher kill count.  It's almost like the massive limitation on LOS nerfed him way down.  There's no reason he shouldn't be kill for kill with a Saryn, especially a melee Saryn.  You're trying to act like this pic proves he's still good, but it takes 3 ability casts for a single nuke, and you have OG casts as well that are also a 3 cast, yet he has LESS abilities used than you.  Which means he was relying heavily on weapons for a large part of those damage and kill numbers.

[Jarriaga]

This game is not a democracy. Likes and support for popular opinions mean nothing.

DE don't have to change their minds based on community sentiment if said sentiment is something they fundamentally disagree with.

[MrDugan]

4 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

This game is not a democracy. Likes and support for popular opinions mean nothing.

DE don't have to change their minds based on community sentiment if said sentiment is something they fundamentally disagree with.

Someone else on the defense force got here first and already used this response.  Dig around in that can y'all get these out of and do a different one please.  I'd like some variety.

[Jarriaga]

1 hour ago, MrDugan said:

Someone else on the defense force got here first and already used this response.  Dig around in that can y'all get these out of and do a different one please.  I'd like some variety.

I'm not defending.

I'm someone who has understood over 9 years that feedback means absolutely nothing unless DE already agree with said feedback. It's set in stone; they never change their minds. Here you have a compilation of everything they've refused to budge on:
 

Again: DE never change their minds. It's all an Overton window of wiggle room.

Using like count as a metric or argument as to why DE should change their minds is nothing but feel-good mental self-pleasing. The decision is not open to what the forums want.

Edited April 8 by Jarriaga

[TARINunit9]

On 2024-04-05 at 8:46 PM, MrDugan said:

It wasn't "fix LOS."  it was "revert all nerfs." 

There is basically no reason to believe DE would even consider this. Not this early into Dante's life cycle

Let's do a reality check and break this down to the most fundamental parts: nerfs means DE wants something gone. The human beings in charge of decision making, humans with wants and desires, want X removed from what is quite literally their property. When other people come around demanding X be put back in, who do you think they are going to listen to? The other people, or themselves?

It is true that people can be convinced out of a position. But this takes time. Shifting perspectives, shifting wants and desires takes time. A week of people saying "you are bad and making bad decisions" wasn't going to do it

Right, now let's add some Warframe context back in: a line of sight nerf means DE is afraid of people using keyloggers to automate missions. Which is just about DE's nightmare scenario. I don't know why DE didn't just start Dante with a LoS restriction on launch day, but there is ZERO reason to think they will consider putting the ability to AoE enemies through walls back in

[RichardKam]

16小时前 , Jarriaga 说:

I'm not defending.

I'm someone who has understood over 9 years that feedback means absolutely nothing unless DE already agree with said feedback. It's set in stone; they never change their minds. Here you have a compilation of everything they've refused to budge on:
 

Again: DE never change their minds. It's all an Overton window of wiggle room.

Using like count as a metric or argument as to why DE should change their minds is nothing but feel-good mental self-pleasing. The decision is not open to what the forums want.

I still remember the state of the forum when archon shards were launched. People said it was too slow. Tau was completely RNG. It was unfair. It took 20 years to put shards on all frames. They demanded more.

Fast forward to Whisper in the Wall. DE announced they included archon shard in netracell, and let people fuse shards to tau shards. People were rejoiced. They said DE finally relented! We won! DE listened!

In reality, the only reason archon shard was put in netracell against all lore and logic was coalescent fusion, orange green and violet shards, that no one has asked for in 2022. The game decided to give you more ways to spend your archon shards, so they also give you more ways to acquire them. Simple as that.

If people are not convinced, take a look at AoE nerf. Review bomb? Death threat? Forum filled with comments? Nothing. Because the nerf was not decided by the community. It was decided in a conference room at DE office.

I don't know why but Warframe community is unique, in a sense that they falsely believed Warframe is a game built by community and, in return, DE has the obligation to listen to them. No. This game was made by DE, from the vision of Steve and Co. If DE has any obligation, it would be the obligation to answer to revenue and business stakeholders.

If people like this game, buy plat. If people encountered bugs, report them. If people don't like this game, stop playing. If people wanted to fix this game according to their preference, send a job application to DE and become a part of them.

Warframe is essentially a product, a service. Customer can give feedback and opinion, but customers never own the company making the product.

[Jarriaga]

3 hours ago, RichardKam said:

I still remember the state of the forum when archon shards were launched. People said it was too slow. Tau was completely RNG. It was unfair. It took 20 years to put shards on all frames. They demanded more.

Fast forward to Whisper in the Wall. DE announced they included archon shard in netracell, and let people fuse shards to tau shards. People were rejoiced. They said DE finally relented! We won! DE listened!

In reality, the only reason archon shard was put in netracell against all lore and logic was coalescent fusion, orange green and violet shards, that no one has asked for in 2022. The game decided to give you more ways to spend your archon shards, so they also give you more ways to acquire them. Simple as that.

If people are not convinced, take a look at AoE nerf. Review bomb? Death threat? Forum filled with comments? Nothing. Because the nerf was not decided by the community. It was decided in a conference room at DE office.

I don't know why but Warframe community is unique, in a sense that they falsely believed Warframe is a game built by community and, in return, DE has the obligation to listen to them. No. This game was made by DE, from the vision of Steve and Co. If DE has any obligation, it would be the obligation to answer to revenue and business stakeholders.

If people like this game, buy plat. If people encountered bugs, report them. If people don't like this game, stop playing. If people wanted to fix this game according to their preference, send a job application to DE and become a part of them.

Warframe is essentially a product, a service. Customer can give feedback and opinion, but customers never own the company making the product.

Agreed.

[SneakyErvin]

22 hours ago, crazywolfpusher said:

This. And it's funny because the same people are crying about the Overguard changes. Which in high level content, doesn't even matter how much Overguard you have.

The nerfs were aimed at low level content, which is were most people play. Dante making the whole squad immortal while also killing every enemy on a 40m+ radius effortlessly, can trivialize the game.  The nerfs were poorly timed, yes, but needed nonetheless.

 

Now, no excuse for how janky line of sight was implemented, and still need fixes, so people need to give them time to work on it properly. This affect a decent number of frames, it's not Dante exclusive.

 

And they were acting as if they cared about others "oh but DE, go ahead and remove the evil OG for others, just let us keep everything in return", seemingly implying Dante was the only OG provider while still complaining and comparing OG with other frames. Which also would have led to OG not getting the upcoming QoL changes, which improves the whole system and massively buffs a few frames aswell. And the constant complaints about LoS and wanting to have it removed, practically ignoring that it will benefit other frames aswell when it gets fully polished.

Agreed on the LoS thing, they need to fix it so it works well for everyone equally, since it sucks for those that currently face the bugs.

22 hours ago, MrDugan said:

It's the insane nonsense like this that made me block you on my old account.  You'll literally say any completely insane thing to defend DE.  I don't think I'll block you again though, because it's honestly amusing watching you do olympic level mental gymnastics.

It's a legit question, since it seems like the people worried about the 360 degree no-LoS Tragedy dont understand that they effectively deal half the damage by doing so, and the innate damage of the skill is laughable at high levels on its own since it just regular slash damage and not cinematic like the consumed damage part of the skill. So controlling the map and basing your killing around the rules of Dark Verse i.e frontal 50 degree cone results in most consistant damage, leaving no heavy units alive on Final Verse cast, since the enemies will have atleast 4 slash instance on them along with whatever statuses applied by your hooters and floaty book.

[MetalMechabolic]

6 hours ago, RichardKam said:

I still remember the state of the forum when archon shards were launched. People said it was too slow. Tau was completely RNG. It was unfair. It took 20 years to put shards on all frames. They demanded more.

Fast forward to Whisper in the Wall. DE announced they included archon shard in netracell, and let people fuse shards to tau shards. People were rejoiced. They said DE finally relented! We won! DE listened!

In reality, the only reason archon shard was put in netracell against all lore and logic was coalescent fusion, orange green and violet shards, that no one has asked for in 2022. The game decided to give you more ways to spend your archon shards, so they also give you more ways to acquire them. Simple as that.

If people are not convinced, take a look at AoE nerf. Review bomb? Death threat? Forum filled with comments? Nothing. Because the nerf was not decided by the community. It was decided in a conference room at DE office.

I don't know why but Warframe community is unique, in a sense that they falsely believed Warframe is a game built by community and, in return, DE has the obligation to listen to them. No. This game was made by DE, from the vision of Steve and Co. If DE has any obligation, it would be the obligation to answer to revenue and business stakeholders.

If people like this game, buy plat. If people encountered bugs, report them. If people don't like this game, stop playing. If people wanted to fix this game according to their preference, send a job application to DE and become a part of them.

Warframe is essentially a product, a service. Customer can give feedback and opinion, but customers never own the company making the product.

 Bro, that feels like every "live service game" made in the last 8 or so years.  At this point the problem feels like it's bigger than a single company's problem.  All I know is that Stockholm Syndrome is very real in the gamer community now.  Not even sure when that happened, I just noticed when suddenly video game mods were being taken down for this and that while praising the company for pushing more dlc in games. (Seriously, when you see suggestions saying "OMG we will pay an obscene amount of money for X feature or Y item!" rather than assume devs will want to add it organically in the game.

Edited April 9 by MetalMechabolic

[MrDugan]

8 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

Not this early into Dante's life cycle

They nerfed him this early in his "life cycle" so they can unnerf him.  They should be listening to the people that pay the bills.

[TARINunit9]

2 hours ago, MetalMechabolic said:

 Bro, that feels like every "live service game" made in the last 8 or so years.  At this point the problem feels like it's bigger than a single company's problem.  All I know is that Stockholm Syndrome is very real in the gamer community now.  Not even sure when that happened, I just noticed when suddenly video game mods were being taken down for this and that while praising the company for pushing more dlc in games. (Seriously, when you see suggestions saying "OMG we will pay an obscene amount of money for X feature or Y item!" rather than assume devs will want to add it organically in the game.

Honestly this just reminds me how much worse every other game is compared to Warframe. Can you imagine this same grind but with no plat trading and also you had to pay $65 up front just to make an account?

Just now, MrDugan said:

They should be listening to the people that pay the bills.

Which at the moment is Tencent

[MrDugan]

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

dont understand that they effectively deal half the damage by doing so, and the innate damage of the skill is laughable at high levels on its own since it just regular slash damage

I'm not being sarcastic here, but I really can't tell if you don't know this, but you can turn your frame and look more than one direction during a mission.

[Venus-Venera]

Am 8.4.2024 um 18:01 schrieb crazywolfpusher:

I'd say my Saryn it's quite decent. This was last night Lua Conjuction Omnia Fissure. 

Dante with just skills did 737 kills. Half of my Saryn kills were melee, and not any melee.

Dante is perfectly fine, it just need some extra adjustments on the LoS.

you generalize and lump everything together. You shouldn't do something like that!
Because here it really depends on the builds, weapons, arcanes, mods (etc) and synergies from the players! plus fraction, normal/sp and type of mission!

I'll tell you more. There are very unpopular builds that do more damage and MORE KILLS than your Saryn and this Dante COMBINED. one of the examples: Volt+Dual Ichor

[MrDugan]

29 minutes ago, Venus-Venera said:

you generalize and lump everything together. You shouldn't do something like that!
Because here it really depends on the builds, weapons, arcanes, mods (etc) and synergies from the players! plus fraction, normal/sp and type of mission!

I'll tell you more. There are very unpopular builds that do more damage and MORE KILLS than your Saryn and this Dante COMBINED. one of the examples: Volt+Dual Ichor

And I can think of stronger but lesser known builds than that, that involve nothing but off-meta weapons.  All these people want to act like it's the people complaining that can't mod.  Like oh, we must just be too stupid or bad at the game because we don't like the LOS nerf.  They cannot understand that you can nuke harder than pre-nerf Dante with entirely off-meta gear.

[RichardKam]

8小时前 , TARINunit9 说:

Which at the moment is Tencent

Well, not exactly. Warframe is actually generating profit for Tencent.

But regarding who pays the bill, it is not vets who have played 5000 hours and have every single item in their arsenal; it is casual players that regularly bought plat to skip the grind and stay mostly in regular starchart.

[TARINunit9]

24 minutes ago, RichardKam said:

Well, not exactly. Warframe is actually generating profit for Tencent.

But regarding who pays the bill, it is not vets who have played 5000 hours and have every single item in their arsenal; it is casual players that regularly bought plat to skip the grind and stay mostly in regular starchart.

I do agree that DE probably gets most of its sales from newer players dazzled by fancy packages like Prime Access

But I distinctly remember DE crediting Tencent for funding the Sacrifice quest

[Venus-Venera]

vor 6 Stunden schrieb MrDugan:

And I can think of stronger but lesser known builds than that, that involve nothing but off-meta weapons.  All these people want to act like it's the people complaining that can't mod.  Like oh, we must just be too stupid or bad at the game because we don't like the LOS nerf.  They cannot understand that you can nuke harder than pre-nerf Dante with entirely off-meta gear.

the builds should also remain unknown. Even if so much damage is not needed anywhere at the moment.
It was a lot of fun studying skills/mods/incarnon etc. and a lot to test. because once you have unlocked all the items, there is nothing else to do and the updates are usually completed on the first day.

I didn't take the topics about Dante seriously. and things like Dante (pre nerf) "be too good" almost made me laugh.

It's super easy to test in simulation:
20x lvl 190 elite SP eximus units
and then we count the seconds how quickly Dante can kill with permanent 385% str, best arcanes, and maxed weapon with 10-13 energy/sec (or energize).

and then...
let's take any usable incarnon weapon like torid (far from the best weapon) with self dmg aura + crit arcane and dmg primary arcane. and count the seconds until everyone is dead.... Torid kills 2-3 TIMES faster than Dante ever can and has no problems at all with ammo or whatever! but Dante can never keep up in usual missions. because he is too slow and he still needs to get the energy!

But what happens if we take a warframe that runs like crazy from one room to the other and also has damage buffs??? Hopefully the answer is obvious

[SneakyErvin]

15 hours ago, MrDugan said:

I'm not being sarcastic here, but I really can't tell if you don't know this, but you can turn your frame and look more than one direction during a mission.

I guess you missed my point since it is about the players that do turn to prime things or go further to spread several Dark Verses across the map on several groups before detonating. They dont understand that they deal far less damage by doing so, so the LoS in high content doesnt really matter since it is in the end sub-optimal.

The skill is based on 2 variables to deal damage if we ignore the abyssmal basic damage of it.

1. Status stack size. Each Dark Verse applies 2 stacks of slash.

2. Remaining status duration. Slash has 6 seconds of duration, since no frame can increase that aside from Lavos when it comes to skills.

This in turn means that when you Dark Verse two seperate groups you are effectively dealing half the damage if you run a 334 rotation, since each group only has 2 stacks active. Not a big problem, since it can handle most things, but will fall behind the higher you get. However, if that same person starts spreading more Dark Verses to get "more" out of his eventual Tragedy cast he may run into completely gimping the damage on the first groups primed, since for each second that passes by between the Dark Verse cast and detonation through Tragedy 16% of the potential damage that would otherwise get multiplied disappears, since slash only lasts 6 seconds and deals damage each second.

Controlling the map by funneling the enemies properly has always been far more efficient for Tragedy use, since it allows you to get near full multiplier on every Tragedy cast. Making it far more likely for you to finish the enemies you hit even if you spread it among two groups of enemies, since atleast both groups will have max or near max duration left on the slash status when you detonate. Plus it also help Dark Verse hit more enemies per cast as opposed to enemies being spread around you. You practically lose 1 second on each previous Dark Verse for each new one you cast (cast speed can make up for some of it, but parts of the animation arent altered by it like with most skills).

[MrDugan]

9 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

I guess you missed my point since it is about the players that do turn to prime things or go further to spread several Dark Verses across the map on several groups before detonating. They dont understand that they deal far less damage by doing so, so the LoS in high content doesnt really matter since it is in the end sub-optimal.

The skill is based on 2 variables to deal damage if we ignore the abyssmal basic damage of it.

1. Status stack size. Each Dark Verse applies 2 stacks of slash.

2. Remaining status duration. Slash has 6 seconds of duration, since no frame can increase that aside from Lavos when it comes to skills.

This in turn means that when you Dark Verse two seperate groups you are effectively dealing half the damage if you run a 334 rotation, since each group only has 2 stacks active. Not a big problem, since it can handle most things, but will fall behind the higher you get. However, if that same person starts spreading more Dark Verses to get "more" out of his eventual Tragedy cast he may run into completely gimping the damage on the first groups primed, since for each second that passes by between the Dark Verse cast and detonation through Tragedy 16% of the potential damage that would otherwise get multiplied disappears, since slash only lasts 6 seconds and deals damage each second.

Controlling the map by funneling the enemies properly has always been far more efficient for Tragedy use, since it allows you to get near full multiplier on every Tragedy cast. Making it far more likely for you to finish the enemies you hit even if you spread it among two groups of enemies, since atleast both groups will have max or near max duration left on the slash status when you detonate. Plus it also help Dark Verse hit more enemies per cast as opposed to enemies being spread around you. You practically lose 1 second on each previous Dark Verse for each new one you cast (cast speed can make up for some of it, but parts of the animation arent altered by it like with most skills).

It uses more than just the priming from his 3.  It can also be primed with weapon procs, which *gasp* also require LOS.  

[SneakyErvin]

18 hours ago, MrDugan said:

It uses more than just the priming from his 3.  It can also be primed with weapon procs, which *gasp* also require LOS.  

That doesnt change anything of what I said. Those are just further practically meaningless steps since you cannot circumvent the requirement of 2 dark verse before a final verse tragedy.

[ECCHOSIERRA]

On 2024-04-09 at 5:27 AM, RichardKam said:

I still remember the state of the forum when archon shards were launched. People said it was too slow. Tau was completely RNG. It was unfair. It took 20 years to put shards on all frames. They demanded more.

Fast forward to Whisper in the Wall. DE announced they included archon shard in netracell, and let people fuse shards to tau shards. People were rejoiced. They said DE finally relented! We won! DE listened!

In reality, the only reason archon shard was put in netracell against all lore and logic was coalescent fusion, orange green and violet shards, that no one has asked for in 2022. The game decided to give you more ways to spend your archon shards, so they also give you more ways to acquire them. Simple as that.

If people are not convinced, take a look at AoE nerf. Review bomb? Death threat? Forum filled with comments? Nothing. Because the nerf was not decided by the community. It was decided in a conference room at DE office.

I don't know why but Warframe community is unique, in a sense that they falsely believed Warframe is a game built by community and, in return, DE has the obligation to listen to them. No. This game was made by DE, from the vision of Steve and Co. If DE has any obligation, it would be the obligation to answer to revenue and business stakeholders.

If people like this game, buy plat. If people encountered bugs, report them. If people don't like this game, stop playing. If people wanted to fix this game according to their preference, send a job application to DE and become a part of them.

Warframe is essentially a product, a service. Customer can give feedback and opinion, but customers never own the company making the product.

There's plenty of examples of DE changing or undoing something just as a direct result of feedback.

I find it laughable to suggest the archon shard changes arent a result of it and instead PURELY because of new colors.

 

But even aside from that.

 

How many lich changes did we get.

How many railjack changes did we get.

How many times have wee seen a weapon get buffed. 

How many times have we seen a frame get buffed. 

How many times did the circus get changed.

Go look at how the randomizer works in the circus vs deep archimedea and tell me feedback had nothing to do with that. 

 

Does de HAVE TO listen to us? 

No.

But that doesnt mean they dont on a regular basis and it especially doesnt mean that if we dont like something we should all just shut up and take it as is and abandon all hope for improvement.

[Trollocaustic]

>Gimme gimme gimee waaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!

OP would make a terrible negotiator in hostage de-escalation situations. Better hope that never becomes a mission type btw.