Jade Shadows - Dev Workshop: Enemy Resistances and Status Rework (LIVE!)

[Karyst]

55 minutes ago, Snowbluff said:

This sounds pretty bad. I don't think people understand the implications of the TTK remaining similar after these armor changes.


For example, take a level 200 corrupted gunner. It has about 100k HP, 11k armor (97%). It's EHP is about 4 million. If you force that armor value down to 90%, you would have to increase the base HP by about 4x to compensate.


Which is to say, enemies aren't getting weaker or easier to kill. It's just that one of the tools for dealing with them, armor strip, is getting weaker because the portion of EHP that reduces or removes is now smaller. Electricity isn't getting better, it will just have bigger numbers against armor without being more effective. If anything viral is even more important, since you'll have more HP you'll have to carve through.

But it opens more options to deal damage instead of only armor strip or bypass with bleed viral

[Beryliberries]

8 minutes ago, (PSN)FrDiabloFr said:

It’s just annoying, if you equip something and forget it overrides the previous set up it’s just annoying i honestly stopped using it, and like kireek pointed out with so many different changes more builds will be required weapon and frames alike.

One arsenal specific peeve I have is different polarities for different elements. I don't mind the switch up but J may have to reconsider polarities for a few weapons. This doesn't effect me too much since I am a leveling junkie, but for the vast majority of players it may not be great. 

6 minutes ago, Karyst said:

But it opens more options to deal damage instead of only armor strip or bypass with bleed viral

If viral keeps its vulnerability against many health types, full stripping in tandem with viral damage and procs will still reign supreme for pure damage than just corrosive against new armor values. DOT will get slightly worse though. 

[Zennophati]

I was hoping that faction mods became more "mandatory" aka more hard to kill enemies, but with QOL of changing it "on the fly".

Edited April 27 by Zennophati

[PrimedLaundrySauce]

14 minutes ago, Karyst said:

But it opens more options to deal damage instead of only armor strip or bypass with bleed viral

Ngl this doesnt open more options, this will just make raw damage options the most easy and best to use. Enemies base HP is going to be increased to compensate these armor changes, slash is about to become worse. Why take the time to strip armor through subsumed abilities when now if you deal enough raw damage or status effects you can potentially deal more damage than full stripping due to how corrosive vs armor works. This will allow for different build styles yes, but it is leaning way more towards just a raw damage meta where now something like slash is becoming less valuable depending on how much enemies health gets increased by. Innately now without archon shards, you can reduce enemy armor by 90% with 10 corrosive and 1 heat proc, 90% less armor on an enemy with 2700 armor is 47% DR instead of 90%, corpus shields have 50% DR rn so with enough status procs which is very easy now a days through weapons, sentinel weapons like verglas, and some abilities, the value of full armor stripping is about to become wayyyyyy less now unless a full strip is extremely easy and fast to do, which compared to just pumping enemies full of more damage and status armor stripping will just take more time.

Edited April 27 by PrimedLaundrySauce

[Karyst]

14 minutes ago, Beryliberries said:

One arsenal specific peeve I have is different polarities for different elements. I don't mind the switch up but J may have to reconsider polarities for a few weapons. This doesn't effect me too much since I am a leveling junkie, but for the vast majority of players it may not be great. 

If viral keeps its vulnerability against many health types, full stripping in tandem with viral damage and procs will still reign supreme for pure damage than just corrosive against new armor values. DOT will get slightly worse though. 

No it won't because they will increase their health, rn their health is tiny and most of their EHP is armor, thus when you bypass it with slash you only need to do little damage.

15 minutes ago, Beryliberries said:

One arsenal specific peeve I have is different polarities for different elements. I don't mind the switch up but J may have to reconsider polarities for a few weapons. This doesn't effect me too much since I am a leveling junkie, but for the vast majority of players it may not be great. 

If viral keeps its vulnerability against many health types, full stripping in tandem with viral damage and procs will still reign supreme for pure damage than just corrosive against new armor values. DOT will get slightly worse though. 

I like to just start blasting then with pure heat, since right now pure heat requires armor strip 

[Beryliberries]

11 minutes ago, Karyst said:

No it won't because they will increase their health, rn their health is tiny and most of their EHP is armor, thus when you bypass it with slash you only need to do little damage.

I like to just start blasting then with pure heat, since right now pure heat requires armor strip 

DOT will get worse by virtue of having more health to eat through. This is largely determined by how much more health we are talking though. I'm sure it'll still be a great option. Viral is already universally one of the best damage types against pure Cloned Flesh, and does equal the amount toxin does for normal flesh. I have my fullest faith the changes will feel fine when all is said and done, don't get me wrong. Just many questions to consider with these changes.

[Omega-Shadowblade]

3 hours ago, JingShenBing13 said:

I think new Cold change is actually a nerf.

If I understand right frozen enemy to get a dmg buff but boss don't(cause boss can't be completely frozen),so in new change Cold only slow boss but current version Cold can give a CD buff to frozen boss.

And this is ridiculous. Why I need a damage buff to enemies which can be kill instantly but not bosses？

It took me a bit to understand it too, but i think I get it.

The current effect of cold vs bosses won't actually change i.e. you still get slowdown and increased crit damage.

You just can't get the full freeze and the DOUBLED bonus. (they mentioned on the actual steam that the effect doubles when they enter the full freeze state)

Overall its just a poor choice of words.

Edited April 27 by Omega-Shadowblade

[SkylarMoo]

Since we are talking about status effect reworks. If possible could we remove/rework bane mods, if each faction already has weaknesses to certain statuses banes seem very redundant. They are also very overpowered and necessary in all builds currently for maximum damage.

It would be awesome if you guys could add special element mods that would allow something like [viral + toxin]  or [blast + heat] on a weapon without it getting merged, similar to the new radiation mods you could stack mods like.. [radiation + heat]  this could replace banes? 

If banes are to be kept in the game, please have a system in place (like a box to tick on or off) that automatically switches the bane in your build depending on what faction you face. Or possibly give the option to combine primed banes into a universal bane. 

-zoom as an exilus slot would be nice. -zoom rivens are expensive, I have quite a few and it’s hard to use some weapons without it on controller. 

Anyways. I’m glad that there are changes being done to status effects and hope it adds more variety to modding weapons. Thank you for all the new changes! 

Edited April 27 by SkylarMoo

[Beryliberries]

18 hours ago, ZacDaMan said:

I'm scared of those health increases, I suspect that will have a bigger impact than we realize

Probably. With some simple EHP number crunching, based upon the example enemy provided in the post, its millions of health you have to find a way to gap, based on the current 90% DR for armor of 2700.

[Beryliberries]

26 minutes ago, SkylarMoo said:

Since we are talking about status effect reworks. If possible could we remove/rework bane mods, if each faction already has weaknesses to certain statuses banes seem very redundant. They are also very overpowered and necessary in all builds currently for maximum damage.

It would be awesome if you guys could add special element mods that would allow something like [viral + toxin]  or [blast + heat] on a weapon without it getting merged, similar to the new radiation mods you could stack mods like.. [radiation + heat]  this could replace banes? 

If banes are to be kept in the game, please have a system in place (like a box to tick on or off) that automatically switches the bane in your build depending on what faction you face. Or possibly give the option to combine primed banes into a universal bane. 

-zoom as an exilus slot would be nice. -zoom rivens are expensive, I have quite a few and it’s hard to use some weapons without it on controller. 

Anyways. I’m glad that there are changes being done to status effects and hope it adds more variety to modding weapons. Thank you for all the new changes! 

Universal Bane defeats the purpose of having them in the first place, and whether combined or not, mathematically, will always be best in slot. Having something auto swap depending on the faction would be nice quality of life. I didn't use banes for a long time due to loadout swapping, but since all I run is new content and endurance, swapping isn't really an issue for me. That being said, this entire thread outlines how badly the arsenal needs a better feel. Static mods would be an interesting way to shake up player loadouts, even if the meta may not necessarily shift. The current issue(aside from many statuses being lackluster) is that they are hard to build into.

Edited April 27 by Beryliberries

[Beryliberries]

28 minutes ago, Omega-Shadowblade said:

It took me a bit to understand it too, but i think I get it.

The current effect of cold vs bosses won't actually change i.e. you still get slowdown and increased crit damage.

You just can't get the full freeze and the DOUBLED bonus. (they mentioned on the actual steam that the effect doubles when they enter the full freeze state)

Overall its just a poor choice of words.

Yeah, some of the wording can be a bit confusing here. For example, them mentioning enemies having a minimum armor value always. Does this mean we can no longer armor strip with abilities, or is this a status-specific thing? 

[WilliamWarframe]

said changes will not make us want to use any of the statuses or change the state of the game except making enemies easier to kill with bad setups and devaluating full strip with 2 green shards or frame kits

sure statuses like blast and magnetic are bad and need changes but we already have enough status combinations for the factions we have in the game, DE you wanted us to use radiation and it is the most effective type to kill the murmur so we use it

if you want us to use magnetic which damages shields why would you change corpus shields when we can already bypass the shields with toxin... instead of releasing a new faction that is specifically weak to magnetic

viral slash will still remain the best option vs grineer and pure toxin will still remain the best option vs corpus, maybe corrosive+heat+nourish peeking here and there

[Casardis]

17 hours ago, Greysmog said:

I think it just makes more sense to nerf Toxin first, see how Magnetic performs, and then adjust both accordingly. I don't think Magnetic needs buffs at this point.

Toxin should work like Slash, where only the proc actually ignores the defense in question by default. DE might want to buff Corpus health as well to make it less desirable or combine better with Magnetic, so you can't just brute force them with Toxin.

Start small, see how it works and go from there.

Yep yep. Adjusting Toxin this way would already bring light to Magnetic more as a starting point. You can't really bring Magnetic up to Toxin level because Toxin just ignores an entire mechanic of the game. Making Toxin in line with Slash sounds reasonable honestly.

[Synitare]

22 hours ago, [DE]Sam said:

VIP enemies (Acolytes, Bosses, etc.) cannot be completely frozen; they’ll also be immune to the frozen-inflicted Critical Damage increase, naturally.

This makes the changes to cold effectively worthless, making it dead BEFORE arrival. Increasing damage against enemies that die instantly doesn't do anything, and making the enemies you would want this effect on immune to it is questionable at best.

I can understand (sort of) making them immune to the CC effect, but making them immune to the damage increase means that bringing cold damage to basically anything is a waste of time.

[WHOOPDIWAM]

I really like the beautiful symmetry that this update has the potential for. Having each enemy type be vulnerable to one combined elemental damage type and one physical damage type, then leaving the other combined damage types for their alternative effects or CC abilities, as well as having the single elemental types be open for whatever form of damage you want or extra resistances for special type mobs. I think this is really elegant solution to an extremely complicated problem. 

My only hope is that the three damage buffing types, corrosion, viral and magnetic, are placed on to grineer, infested and corpus, respectively.

Obviously the question of toxin arises with this. And no I don't have a solution because it's not as simple as just buffing or debuffing, and if you take away the shield bypassing mechanic then it loses one of its main benefits all together.

Definitely not as simple as most people posting here would like to indicate. 

 

[Beryliberries]

1 minute ago, Casardis said:

Yep yep. Adjusting Toxin this way would already bring light to Magnetic more as a starting point. You can't really bring Magnetic up to Toxin level because Toxin just ignores an entire mechanic of the game. Making Toxin in line with Slash sounds reasonable honestly.

Even then, toxin would still be better than magnetic. If the DOT ticks through HP and not the damage, that just puts toxin and magnetic in the current corrosive vs slash scaling situation they are currently trying to address. 

[Casardis]

3 minutes ago, Beryliberries said:

Even then, toxin would still be better than magnetic. If the DOT ticks through HP and not the damage, that just puts toxin and magnetic in the current corrosive vs slash scaling situation they are currently trying to address. 

Hence why it would be a starting point. They can then work other things out like Corpus health pool, etc. Unless Toxin is addressed first, no amount of Magnetic buff will be able to outshine the former.

[Beryliberries]

4 minutes ago, Casardis said:

Hence why it would be a starting point. They can then work other things out like Corpus health pool, etc. Unless Toxin is addressed first, no amount of Magnetic buff will be able to outshine the former.

I agree.

[WilliamWarframe]

8 minutes ago, Casardis said:

Hence why it would be a starting point. They can then work other things out like Corpus health pool, etc. Unless Toxin is addressed first, no amount of Magnetic buff will be able to outshine the former.

yeah instead of having magnetic completely useless and toxin as a good status type we could have magnetic only good vs corpus and toxin completely useless, that would be an awesome starting point actually, they should really do that

 

how about instead of slash we had electric and instead of it's current damage formula just had slash's damage formula and did cinematic damage and as a way to nerf slash vs grineer we just copied the current electric damage formula and electric status properties??? that would be aweomse rework of making new things good!

[Omega-Shadowblade]

28 minutes ago, Beryliberries said:

Yeah, some of the wording can be a bit confusing here. For example, them mentioning enemies having a minimum armor value always. Does this mean we can no longer armor strip with abilities, or is this a status-specific thing? 

I believe that refers to the fact that there will always be an initial amount of armor for enemies that had armor even on lower levels because armor should feel like it does something. Armor strip will be unaffected.

Basically new players will learn early that armor is something to take note of.

[Beryliberries]

4 minutes ago, vaacant said:

yeah instead of having magnetic completely useless and toxin as a good status type we could have magnetic only good vs corpus and toxin completely useless, that would be an awesome starting point actually, they should really do that

 

how about instead of slash we had electric and instead of it's current damage formula just had slash's damage formula and did cinematic damage and as a way to nerf slash vs grineer we just copied the current electric damage formula and electric status properties??? that would be aweomse rework of making new things good!

They could also make toxin DOT interact with shields like other DOTs do, and make it so they can't breach health. Anything would be a boon for magnetic. 
 

Are you proposing electric do true damage on DOT? That would be kinda busted ngl

1 minute ago, Omega-Shadowblade said:

I believe that refers to the fact that there will always be an initial amount of armor for enemies that had armor even on lower levels because armor should feel like it does something. Armor strip will be unaffected.

Basically new players will learn early that armor is something to take note of.

That's essentially how I am viewing it as well. Wording in the post is just a tad vague!

[Xenevier]

1 hour ago, Zennophati said:

I was hoping that faction mods became more "mandatory" aka more hard to kill enemies, but with QOL of changing it "on the fly".

imo faction mods should stay in the game for people who like to min max but not needed for content to be done, if you NEED a faction mod then i think thats a problem, if you have the option to make your life easier with it but can also use other stuff for it, thats good

[CoffeeElemental]

Sounds good but please consider letting robotics stay in the list of skin types. Merge 'robotics' and 'machinery' into 'mechanical' or smth.

It would be really strange to see robots get melted by toxin/slash like almost everything else.

[PublikDomain]

While Armor is being adjusted, can the formula be adjusted as well?

Currently, the formula for Armor is DR = 1 - 300 / (Armor + 300). 300 Armor is 1 - 300/600, or 50% DR. 900 Armor is 1 - 300/1,200, or 75% DR. Another way to think of it is that every 300 Armor adds +100% EHP. 900 Armor (or 75% DR) means an enemy will have +300% (or 4x) more EHP than when it started. But what do you get from 2,700 Armor? When the numbers start to go up, this gets harder and harder to intuitively calculate on the fly. This also makes player Armor harder to understand: how much EHP am I actually getting when I add 450 Armor to go from 125 Armor to 575?

If the formula for Armor is changed to DR = 1 - 100 / (Armor + 100) and base Armor values across the board are divided by 3, then Armor behaves in the exact same way as before but just at different increments. Now every 100 Armor is +100% EHP. An enemy with 900 Armor (a third of the new cap) would have the same +900% EHP. And this would make player Armor easier to understand: when I add 150 Armor to go from 40 Armor to 190 Armor I'm just adding +150% EHP.

Some other things:

• Will Armor double-dipping be addressed? Currently, damage bonuses against Armored enemies increases the damage and decreases the effective Armor giving it a multiplicative benefit.
• By reducing the percentage of EHP Armored enemies have due to Armor you're also increasing the percentage of EHP they have due to Health. This is a good thing on its own, but since you aren't changing Viral this will only make the 4.25x damage multiplier it can provide that much more valuable. When even a single stack of Viral doubles damage, that far out-competes whatever paltry faction damage bonus that might have been present. As long as you refuse to address Viral's massive damage value it will remain on top. As you've likely already seen, just giving other damage types like Cold tacked-on damage buffs hasn't worked and you're about to try it again.
• If overall EHP amounts of Armored enemies are being preserved by adjusting Health, how does this affect faction scaling differences? Currently, a lvl150 SP Corpus Tech has 260k EHP. A lvl150 SP Heavy Gunner has 7.1M EHP, 27x more. If that's preserved, then Shield Regen alone will not be able to make up for that large of a difference unless it's ridiculously fast. Shield Regen sounds nice and should make Shielded enemies feel more dynamic, but it isn't going to be enough to make the unarmored factions sturdy.
• The Infested are notably absent from these changes. If Armored factions are being kept where they are and Shielded factions are being buffed with better regen, then the Infested will only fall even further behind. A lvl150 SP Ancient Healer has only 130k EHP, half that of the Tech and 1/54th that of the Heavy Gunner. The Infested might "hit hard" on paper, but that doesn't matter when they're instantly atomized.
• Toxin damage directly bypasses Shields, so all of your Shields changes could be meaningless. The stronger Shield regeneration is made, the more you're going to push players into a different one-note meta. Why use Magnetic to reduce Shields when Toxin ignores them?
• While you're at it, can the proc effects for Void, Radiation, and Magnetic be swapped around a little?
  • Void should be the effect that causes enemies to go mad.
  • Magnetic should be the effect that causes enemies to become bullet magnets.
  • Radiation should be the effect that causes shields to get all wonky.

Many of these changes are good and I'm glad that something is finally being done about the foundational scaling issues that have been present for so long. But I worry that the resistance to just nerfing Viral a little is going to leave it as the universal best status effect and require many more reworks to every other status type.

Edited April 27 by PublikDomain

[Xenevier]

magnetic buff wont be doing much as long as toxin exists, why would you ever run an element that nerfs enemy shields when you can run one that ignores them

its the same thing as running corrossive VS slash, yeah sure corrossive nerfs armor but why bother when slash ignores it???

i think buffing HP is good since it gives more room to balancing, nerfing armor effectively nerfs and buffs everything in the game, frames that relied on anti armor to be good like slash frames or armor strip frames become less valuable WHILE frames that couldnt function without a helminth for armor strip become actually viable, it just goes from some frames being viable to more frames being viable at the cost of lowering enemy difficulity, so i think to combat this it would be good to buff hp to a standard where something like heat and electricity can actually have competition against one another, currently heat WILL out perform electricity against armor, so making electricity basically non viable against armor in later stages of the game feels bad for weapons who use it and especially for frames that use it as their primary damage, like gyre.

So make armor not a full stopper for some frames and statuses but buff HP to make it so the current strong options (viral heat, viral slash, slash,) dont also get stronger alongside options we're trying to buff :D