DE should address Jade's Design

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

10 hours ago, S.O.U.N.D.W.A.V.E said:

Without repeating 100+ pages of feedbacks, I am leaving this here for you to go through and form the answers to your questions

Yes, there are a lot of people on here that don't like her. That isn't what I asked for evidence of.

You said this was...

On 2024-06-21 at 2:17 AM, S.O.U.N.D.W.A.V.E said:

among those who have experienced personal traumas related to childbearing or loss

But the first link you posted to was to some dude (explicitly described as "fiancé") who bought the frame without playing the quest.

The first reply is basically "I thought she'd be hotter from the marketing"

I think there are a lot (and I mean a LOT) of guys on here that feel uncomfortable about playing a pregnant frame.

I'm not going to get into my personal life, but I know a lot of people who have lived through the kind of traumas you're describing, and none of them are upset about the idea of playing as a pregnant Warframe.

10 hours ago, S.O.U.N.D.W.A.V.E said:

spoken out about their reasons for believing a toggle is needed at the very least

Yeah, but none of you have thought it through. A toggle solves it for you. You can play as postpartum Jade and it's totally a solution for all the guys who want a sexier frame.

You could also just not play as Jade.

You know who it isn't a solution for? People triggered by the existence of a pregnant frame (that you claim are so common). Other players would still be joining your games with pregnant Jade.

It could even go the other way around: person traumatised by multiple miscarriages who likes playing as pregnant Jade finds themselves on a squad of 'miscarried' Jades.

(This is why you need evidence by the way - not just "there is trauma" but understand it)

The toggle would have to turn on/off everyone else's Jade pregnancy (at least for the triggers you describe, rather than fashion frame). I can force your waifu Jade to be pregnant, you can force someone else's to not be.

I don't think that's something DE should do.

 

[Luigispikachu]

32 minutes ago, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

Yes, there are a lot of people on here that don't like her. That isn't what I asked for evidence of.

 

Bro, you got what you were asking for. Stop acting high and mighty when they gave you exactly what you asked for.

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

1 hour ago, Luigispikachu said:

Bro, you got what you were asking for. Stop acting high and mighty when they gave you exactly what you asked for.

Did you read my reply? Did you read the post he was reply to?

I didn't ask "are lots of people upset" 

The OP has made an assertion as to why they are upset: triggering trauma related to childbirth.

I asked him to provide evidence. Specifically evidence of that trauma.

I'm not acting "high and mighty". I don't know what triggers hurt the traumas of other people. I don't think the OP does either.

I do think that if people are traumatised by this, and specifically cannon avoid this by just not playing as Jade, then the only solution has to affect other Jades that they play with.

But, honestly, I don't think a clear recommendation could be made either way without some actual research (ie talking to people, not anonymous forums).

[WanderingJoe]

It's not a great argument to make. "I know you guys want to talk about this but have you considered just... not? I doesn't bother me any." Why are people having such a problem that a subset of the fanbase wants to get DE's attention? Seriously, it's fine if you like pregnant Jade. Noone here is saying you shouldn't. What we are saying is that we dont. The worst case scenario you seem to be so afraid of, the "if we let you people get your way" scenario, is a toggle for her. We'd get both versions, the best of both worlds for the fan base. It just boggles the mind that this is somehow a "You're not allowed to talk about that!" topic to some people.

I encourage anyone making posts that support this forum thread to write your responses as if you were appealing to DE. Fighting with people who are convinced they have the moral highground to tell you that your opinion doesn't matter only feeds thier hunger for attention.

Edited June 24 by WanderingJoe

[Rek_Colyks]

I like Jade; I think she's cool, and I've enjoyed playing with her.  At the same time, I too have a problem with playing a pregnant/apparently pregnant character in combat situations, as well as otherwise exposing such a character to destruction (like sacrificing her to the Helminth). The copy of Jade that we play as has the same glowing ball inside her belly that the Jade in the quest has, which appears to be the embryo.  Remaking Jade's model is one option, but I have some additional ideas/suggestions that might help:

1. Keep Jade's appearance as she is, but add an alternative skin where the belly or at least the embryo is removed.

2. Simply remove the glowing orb/embryo from Jade's current model. (This might be the easiest, but might not satisfy those who also have an issue with her looking pregnant.)

3. Make Jade's belly an attachment that can be removed, similar to other frames that have attachments that are part of their default appearance (like Hydroid Prime's shoulder plates, for example).

Again, I think DE did a good job with Jade (thank you, DE!), but the playable copy of Jade being/looking pregnant gives some of us pause. DE demonstrates their sensitivity toward how their game may affect some of their players by including the warning about trauma related to motherhood at the beginning of the quest, so I'm hopeful that they will hear and consider our feedback.  Thanks, and God bless y'all!

[S.O.U.N.D.W.A.V.E]

A big thank you to WanderingJoe for being so active, positive and encouraging in keeping the discussion open (across multiple threads too!). 

Let's keep this up and we will show DE what we truly want!

I have also just edited the formatting of the first post to show the link up top. Thanks again for the heads up! 🍻

[NeDesitVirtus]

Petition signed. 

I'll share here what I included with in the petition. 

I've spent the last week really considering whether or not this is something I wanted to address externally or internally or both and I chose both as I feel personal and responsible for my reactions even if those are based on external events:

"As a combat veteran who plays Warframe as a means to disconnect and focus on something other than the internal dialogue that I typically have to deal with as the after effects of my time in combat, I would say that the introduction of a pregnant Warframe or seemingly pregnant Warframe does bring out traumatic memories of how the enemy used women and sometimes pregnant women in combat. 

Thus, even though in spirit, I really enjoyed the quest. It does tend to serve as an intrusive reminder and something which I would rather not have to deal with as an element of re-traumatization within the context of playing Warframe. 

Overall, I want to say that I applaud the publisher for the various and dynamic ways in which they have brought forth a product that compels thinking strategy and diversity in so many ways. 

I would concur that it would be nice to have some type of toggle for those of us who are still working through different layers of trauma so as not to be forcibly re-traumatized even inadvertently as a result of a character design."

I hope this helps others as well.

[WanderingJoe]

So, we finally have a youtube creator saying this too. Emperor Fatalis's "Warframe: The Jade Shadows Experience Is Crazy..." video on youtube addresses her appearance within the first two minutes of his video.

There seems to be a problem with the petition not showing the reasons people signed the petition.

And a thank you for your service to NeDesitVertues, for serving whatever country you belong to.

Edited June 25 by WanderingJoe

[S.O.U.N.D.W.A.V.E]

It is worth noting a content warning is in place at the beginning of Jade's quests. 

DE already recognise the sensitive nature of the latests content. What we are asking here is for DE to complete what they have set out to do - respect those who chooses to not to subject a character with sensitive aspects to violence and gore - on top of all other effects it may have on the audience. 

[WanderingJoe]

So, tiny update. DE announced that they'd have one more Dev stream before tenno con. This may be in response to this controversy, it may not, who knows. I just know I can't watch live on Thursday because I have work. To those who can make it, I'd love to hear if they do say something on this thread so I can sneak a peak at this thread while on my breaks.

Edited June 25 by WanderingJoe

[fo3nixz]

???

[WanderingJoe]

1 minute ago, fo3nixz said:

???

Welcome to the discussion Fo3nixz. Since you posted so soon after my last post, let me know if you have any questions about all this and I'll do my best to answer before my day starts up. If I have to go before then, I'll be happy to discuss after the fact.

[Circle_of_Psi]

44 minutes ago, WanderingJoe said:

So, tiny update. DE announced that they'd have one more Dev stream before tenno con

Sauce?

[WanderingJoe]

11 minutes ago, Circle_of_Psi said:

Sauce?

 

[itsmeappo]

that's a prime time (the community stream where they do activities ingame with people from the community), not a devstream

this said: enough people have commented on the issue i expect de will say something 'eventually', but. given both the subject and their workload i imagine they are probably taking their time to figure out precisely what they are intending to say.

Edited June 25 by itsmeappo

[Circle_of_Psi]

1 hour ago, WanderingJoe said:

-snip-

So, DE seem to be blocking all talk about the current design of Jade on their devshorts

Not a good sign

Edited June 25 by Circle_of_Psi

[WanderingJoe]

2 hours ago, itsmeappo said:

that's a prime time (the community stream where they do activities ingame with people from the community), not a devstream

this said: enough people have commented on the issue i expect de will say something 'eventually', but. given both the subject and their workload i imagine they are probably taking their time to figure out precisely what they are intending to say.

oh yeah, no I am sympathetic to how responding to this could turn into a PR nightmare if handled poorly

 

 

2 hours ago, itsmeappo said:

that's a prime time (the community stream where they do activities ingame with people from the community), not a devstream

this said: enough people have commented on the issue i expect de will say something 'eventually', but. given both the subject and their workload i imagine they are probably taking their time to figure out precisely what they are intending to say.

Forgive me for not being specific. Im not saying its correct to do so but I use the terms interchangeably. Its still DE interacting with thier community.

[S.O.U.N.D.W.A.V.E]

8 hours ago, WanderingJoe said:

oh yeah, no I am sympathetic to how responding to this could turn into a PR nightmare if handled poorly

 

 

Forgive me for not being specific. Im not saying its correct to do so but I use the terms interchangeably. Its still DE interacting with thier community.

Interestingly, Steve did begin to read out a question pertaining to possibility of having some option made available to Jade before Reb quickly stopped him from 'spoiling the story'. 

It sounded like someone did manage to get the question through and DE is not ready to address it on a livestream? Just my guess from watching the stream though.

Edited June 26 by S.O.U.N.D.W.A.V.E

[Shinoyami65]

1 hour ago, S.O.U.N.D.W.A.V.E said:

It sounded like someone did manage to get the question through and DE is not ready to address it on a livestream? Just my guess from watching the stream though.

TBH the more this discourse goes on the more it seems like tying such a spoiler-y aspect of the quest to a core aspect of the frame's design was a mistake, if they can't actually address feedback or even let people know if they're contemplating changes due to their own spoiler policy, not to mention needing to keep that part of the design concealed until release.

Edited June 26 by Shinoyami65

[NovaLP]

On 2024-06-23 at 9:27 PM, AlyxisPrime said:

The removal and avoidance of normal, everyday sights and happenings does not ease trauma.

Snowflakes who want to signal virtue won't understand that,

And I don't mean that in any offensive matter...

If you seriously feel uncomfortable playing or seeing Jade you need REAL help and not a petition for a toggle or design change for Jade. And I am so sorry for you that you have to relive your trauma.

But I believe no one here has trauma from childbirth or pregnancy yet they try to signal virtue her design to be changed into either something normal or sexy.

If you don't like the look of a frame don't play it, simple as that. Pregnancy has already been used for hundreds of years as a religious symbol of divine protection, which fits Jade quite well + its established has her backstory in the quest very well.

If we were talking about a skin that made lets say banshee pregnant for no reason, yes that would've been an entirely different conversation. But I expect no less from backboneless DE than to actually give Jade a pregnancy toggle which will probably make the problem for people with actual traumas even worse.

On 2024-06-23 at 2:15 PM, S.O.U.N.D.W.A.V.E said:

As far as I know, Saryn's name was originally 'Sarin', and quoting directly from the wiki, "It was altered to Saryn when a first responder to a sarin attack suggested a name tweak".

Ah yes pregnancy and a horrible weapon are now up to par?

I see why DE would change 'Sarin' to Saryn, but Jades design goes no where near as a far as to name a Warframe after a weaponized gas that is used to this day. Would be just as tasteless as to name a Gas based weapon 'Zyklon B'

[S.O.U.N.D.W.A.V.E]

51 minutes ago, NovaLP said:

Ah yes pregnancy and a horrible weapon are now up to par?

I see why DE would change 'Sarin' to Saryn, but Jades design goes no where near as a far as to name a Warframe after a weaponized gas that is used to this day. Would be just as tasteless as to name a Gas based weapon 'Zyklon B'

My reply was directed to answer a simple question from a fellow contributor of the discussion; no more, no less. 

Regarding the divisive reception of Jade, if you are genuinely interested in the topic, I encourage you to explore other threads in this section of the forum. It is important to see the arguments in their proper context, which go beyond simple visual preferences. 

While It is easy to sum up and oversimplfy the phenomenon at hand to a straightforward matter of like-or-dislike, the controversy actually originates from the significance and moral values attached to the subject of pregnancy. 

 

Edit: formatting

Edited Wednesday at 12:36 PM by S.O.U.N.D.W.A.V.E

[Chewarette]

Please stop being fragile.

Or don't be hypocritical and ask for :

- Slim Grendel, because some people also have problems with overweight matters in real life

- Sleek Hildryn, because some people can't succeed in growing muscles in real life and are getting shamed for it

- Non-Skeleton-showing Xaku, because some cultures can't stand watching skeletons

- Crotch-less warframes for quite an important number of them, that's sexual body shaming duh

- Boobless warframes to support women who underwent mastectomy

- A non-religious-looking Harrow for obvious reasons

- An absolute 0 gore elements for obvious reasons

- Drifter/Operator skins with one or 0 arms, same for legs, heh, for representation purposes you know, it should also apply to all Warframes after all

- A wheelchair skin for Drifter/Operator, are you handicap-phobic ?

- Alopecia, Albinism, skin discolorations, ... all that should be taken into account as well

Maybe when you list all the potential "triggering" problems within Warframe's design, you'll realize nobody gives a single damn for a couple of reasons :

- It's a game

- It's not real life

- It's not you you're playing, but an entirely fictional character

- Grineer & Infestation don't exist in real life

- You have 56 other Warframes choice to pick from if playing Jade puts you in such a triggered state

- Psychologists exist in real life, they can help you with your fragility.

The fact you're asking specifically for Jade just shows you simply have a problem with Pregnancy, but none of the other topics above. So, it's simply a "you" problem, don't talk about accounting for people's weaknesses if you don't account for absolutely ALL of them.

Edited Wednesday at 12:44 PM by Chewarette

[Luigispikachu]

2 hours ago, Chewarette said:

Please stop being fragile.

Or don't be hypocritical and ask for :

- Slim Grendel, because some people also have problems with overweight matters in real life

- Sleek Hildryn, because some people can't succeed in growing muscles in real life and are getting shamed for it

- Non-Skeleton-showing Xaku, because some cultures can't stand watching skeletons

- Crotch-less warframes for quite an important number of them, that's sexual body shaming duh

- Boobless warframes to support women who underwent mastectomy

- A non-religious-looking Harrow for obvious reasons

- An absolute 0 gore elements for obvious reasons

- Drifter/Operator skins with one or 0 arms, same for legs, heh, for representation purposes you know, it should also apply to all Warframes after all

- A wheelchair skin for Drifter/Operator, are you handicap-phobic ?

- Alopecia, Albinism, skin discolorations, ... all that should be taken into account as well

Maybe when you list all the potential "triggering" problems within Warframe's design, you'll realize nobody gives a single damn for a couple of reasons :

- It's a game

- It's not real life

- It's not you you're playing, but an entirely fictional character

- Grineer & Infestation don't exist in real life

- You have 56 other Warframes choice to pick from if playing Jade puts you in such a triggered state

- Psychologists exist in real life, they can help you with your fragility.

The fact you're asking specifically for Jade just shows you simply have a problem with Pregnancy, but none of the other topics above. So, it's simply a "you" problem, don't talk about accounting for people's weaknesses if you don't account for absolutely ALL of them.

That's a longwinded way to just dismiss the concerns. Guess you really are a "Gamer" huh?

 

Welp, not my problem you don't want to have a goon natured discussion.

 

Anyway, you know what using "snowflake" as an insult really means right?

[SirKeksalot]

3 hours ago, Chewarette said:

Please stop being fragile.

Or don't be hypocritical and ask for :

[the entire declaration of independence]

The fact you're asking specifically for Jade just shows you simply have a problem with Pregnancy, but none of the other topics above. So, it's simply a "you" problem, don't talk about accounting for people's weaknesses if you don't account for absolutely ALL of them.

Where are people asking for any of those things? Where are people objecting to them? If this is all hypothetical stuff that people might have opinions on, but aren't being talked about by anyone with opinions on Jade, then that list is irrelevant. When I spoke on what I like about Jade and why I'm glad this design exists, I spoke about what I actually feel, personally, for certain. All her detractors have cited what they, themselves, find upsetting.

Now, I'll hand the mic to you: what do you find personally concerning about adding an optional way to turn off the preggus maximus, one you don't even have to use? What are you actually worried about? What is the problem your arguments are meant to solve? Who do you want to protect or help? I can't think of any other questions that really matter in this discussion.

[Chewarette]

12 minutes ago, SirKeksalot said:

Now, I'll hand the mic to you: what do you find personally concerning about adding an optional way to turn off the preggus maximus, one you don't even have to use? What are you actually worried about? What is the problem your arguments are meant to solve? Who do you want to protect or help? I can't think of any other questions that really matter in this discussion.

1- Time spent reworking Jade's skeleton to accommodate the 20 or so people weirded out by a pregnant warframe to match with an entirely different skin is not spent somewhere else

2- Neutering stuff because it might hurt some fragile person is never a good idea

3- It would be a severe hit on artists and lore people works. "What you invented/wrote/design suck". Consequence ? Next Warframe(s) will be bland with no unique or inventive design. Just a Warframe with 2 legs, 2 arms, one head, named "Warframe 58" that we'll level up and forget immediately, because taking risks would have proven to be "bad" as per all complainers.

4- Pandering to all complainers out there, when they have a very easy solution by using another warframe or simply not caring about this one (considering the belly is not even visible when you play her, rofl), will send a very, very bad signal in general.

Just because you don't see counter-arguments don't mean they don't exist. And despite I agree on the "having options is always good" PoV, that doesn't mean we should have a list of one million options to cope with every single person's psychological problem.

Just a kind reminder that all this come from people not able to process a pregnant Warframe, MOST OF THEM QUALIFYING THAT AS A FETISH, just to put it back into situation.

55 minutes ago, Luigispikachu said:

That's a longwinded way to just dismiss the concerns. Guess you really are a "Gamer" huh?

 

Welp, not my problem you don't want to have a goon natured discussion.

 

Anyway, you know what using "snowflake" as an insult really means right?

Please tell me where in my post I used the word "snowflake". Thanks by advance.