Warframe is a game held back by how easy it is

[GEN-Son_17]

2 hours ago, Kaiga said:

I love posts like this. They're everyone's favorite way of silencing topics they disagree with around here, since the mods are all to happy to close down free speech and negative feedback under the guise of "Well in my opinion this content to no longer erm achsully useful be useful so I'm going to lock it and ensure nobody sees it anymore".

So people love pointing this out to try and bait reports and moderator action, despite you know, people talking about things like new weapon ideas.

Truly the... letter... of the law.

"Letter of..." What kind of....bro, stop.

The most irritating part about the wrong people talking about free speech is they don't realize just how much they actually get to talk. People here have made their strongest points and the mods have every right to chop it if the "free speech" becomes nothing more than regurgitating points. 

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

On 2024-08-07 at 2:17 PM, DocNemo said:

"I have optimized the fun out of the game and so the game isn't fun anymore"

Bro, YOU'RE the answer to that issue. You want things to be more difficult, stop running with gauss/wukong/revenant. Play some other frames, play some unusual weapons.

"But then the other player..."

Get friends, play with your friends, agree not to play the meta. 

I can't stand people complaining about content for a game when they have full control over that content.

The nerf herders really hate hearing that lol. 

"But I shouldn't have to play with one hand tied behind my back"

But somehow DE tying hands behind their back for them, in the form of nerfs is different.

[Xiothin]

Steel Path is usually difficult for first-timers, New War can be difficult for first timers.

[BoochieKatt]

On 2024-08-06 at 2:14 PM, MrDugan said:

What is this nonsense I keep seeing people whine about?  I went on a break for a while after the Dante nerfs, and I apparently missed the boat on whatever "slam wukong" is.  I have never seen anyone in-game doing anything that would appear to be whatever this is.

I haven’t been on hiatus and I haven’t seen or even heard of a slam wukong.

[4thBro]

19 hours ago, GEN-Son_17 said:

"Letter of..." What kind of....bro, stop.

The most irritating part about the wrong people talking about free speech is they don't realize just how much they actually get to talk. People here have made their strongest points and the mods have every right to chop it if the "free speech" becomes nothing more than regurgitating points. 

The problem is that a lot of these strongest points get responded to with fallacies, like misrepresentations or red herrings for some good examples, and those need to be addressed because they trick people into thinking certain ways.

Fallacies work. That's why they're used, even at the highest levels of social settings (like politics). And it can get quite cumbersome trying to address all of them, but it needs to be done, or else we're just living in pure chaos where nothing matters.

[4thBro]

18 hours ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

The nerf herders really hate hearing that lol. 

"But I shouldn't have to play with one hand tied behind my back"

But somehow DE tying hands behind their back for them, in the form of nerfs is different.

Okay, I already addressed this, so let me try it again in different words:

 

I didn't just spend a week planning and farming for items, just so that I could take off my items.

 

We are saying that this looter shooter has us looting, but not testing that loot on what we're shooting.

You are saying that we should be happy putting away the loot, from the looter shooter, and just shooting. Without the loot.

 

That's like if I'm playing GTA5, and I say, "These car races are too easy. Please make them harder."

And you, the community, said... "If you want it to be harder, get out of the car and run the race on foot."

It's not a car race if I'm running on foot.

It's not Warframe if I'm not utilizing all my loot.

I'm curious how you'll attempt to dismiss this analogy, though.

[GEN-Son_17]

4 minutes ago, 4thBro said:

We are saying that this looter shooter has us looting, but not testing that loot on what we're shooting.

You are saying that we should be happy putting away the loot, from the looter shooter, and just shooting. Without the loot.

No, 

 

17 minutes ago, 4thBro said:

The problem is that a lot of these strongest points get responded to with fallacies, like misrepresentations or red herrings for some good examples, and those need to be addressed because they trick people into thinking certain ways.

Fallacies work. That's why they're used, even at the highest levels of social settings (like politics). And it can get quite cumbersome trying to address all of them, but it needs to be done, or else we're just living in pure chaos where nothing matters.

True, but not for this topic. In this case, the responding players are using common sense approaches to the argument and laying out that progression erases difficulty. This is literally what every game ever made contends with. Name a game that gives you what you are asking for, long term, and I can easily cite why it is a lie. 

[MrInubis]

14 minutes ago, 4thBro said:

Okay, I already addressed this, so let me try it again in different words:

 

I didn't just spend a week planning and farming for items, just so that I could take off my items.

 

We are saying that this looter shooter has us looting, but not testing that loot on what we're shooting.

You are saying that we should be happy putting away the loot, from the looter shooter, and just shooting. Without the loot.

 

That's like if I'm playing GTA5, and I say, "These car races are too easy. Please make them harder."

And you, the community, said... "If you want it to be harder, get out of the car and run the race on foot."

It's not a car race if I'm running on foot.

It's not Warframe if I'm not utilizing all my loot.

I'm curious how you'll attempt to dismiss this analogy, though.

Its not looter shooter, its collectible gear shooter. You are not progressing gear, you farm gear to have it and have fun with it. Its not about the best gear, its about all the gear. There is no game to beat, farming is the game.

[4thBro]

11 minutes ago, GEN-Son_17 said:

True, but not for this topic. In this case, the responding players are using common sense approaches to the argument and laying out that progression erases difficulty. This is literally what every game ever made contends with. Name a game that gives you what you are asking for, long term, and I can easily cite why it is a lie. 

I mean...

... Borderlands 2.

 

You build up your power for an endgame goal of beating the raid bosses. And they are challenging, even when you have all your loot.

Warframe is like if Borderlands simply did not have that endgame goal. You just farm up your loot, and then-- nothing.

 

Or, to more focus on "long term" for endgame...

Diablo 3.

Greater Rifts, even without adding power creep, are a near-infinite endgame. You're always trying to squeeze out a faster time. It's like speedrunning, if you're familiar at all with the art of speedrunning games. Those games don't get patches. But there's still a whole community of people that dedicate to maximizing the speedruns.

 

I feel like even Chess is relevant. Unpatched for centuries. Still played, still not mastered. Everyone can lose. Nobody has figured out the perfect way to play.

That's a pretty damn good endgame, if you ask me.

 

 

 

 

10 minutes ago, kuciol said:

Its not looter shooter, its collectible gear shooter. You are not progressing gear, you farm gear to have it and have fun with it. Its not about the best gear, its about all the gear. There is no game to beat, farming is the game.

I've never seen a game with such a fluid, ever-changing genre and definition as Warframe.

 

It seems to be able to adapt to whatever the conversation needs it to be!

Edited August 10 by 4thBro

[MrInubis]

6 minutes ago, 4thBro said:

I mean...

... Borderlands 2.

 

You build up your power for an endgame goal of beating the raid bosses. And they are challenging, even when you have all your loot.

Warframe is like if Borderlands simply did not have that endgame goal. You just farm up your loot, and then-- nothing.

 

Or, to more focus on "long term" for endgame...

Diablo 3.

Greater Rifts, even without adding power creep, are a near-infinite endgame. You're always trying to squeeze out a faster time. It's like speedrunning, if you're familiar at all with the art of speedrunning games. Those games don't get patches. But there's still a whole community of people that dedicate to maximizing the speedruns.

 

I feel like even Chess is relevant. Unpatched for centuries. Still played, still not mastered. Everyone can lose. Nobody has figured out the perfect way to play.

That's a pretty damn good endgame, if you ask me.

 

 

 

 

I've never seen a game with such a fluid, ever-changing genre and definition as Warframe.

 

It seems to be able to adapt to whatever the conversation needs it to be!

Stop comparing this game to others. In borderlands 2 you are meant to get stronger, you get better gear to beat game, in warframe the goal is to get everything. 2 vastly diffent goals. Warframe is not a game you finish, there is no end goal and will never be. Diablo 3 is considered a trash game with boring endgame you know. We have ESO that has exactly the same role. Thats our rifts and nobody plays that trash beyond leveling some stuff. Also again the goal in those games is progress, to get stronger. Thats not the point in this game. 

Edited August 10 by kuciol

[4thBro]

40 minutes ago, GEN-Son_17 said:

Name a game that gives you what you are asking for

 

24 minutes ago, kuciol said:

Stop comparing this game to others.

 

Can't win.

I'm out.

You win another thread, and thus, we see why this game shall never get what it needs.

[MrInubis]

3 minutes ago, 4thBro said:

 

 

Can't win.

I'm out.

You win another thread, and thus, we see why this game shall never get what it needs.

If you cant even tell difference between comparing and giving example than yeah, better leave.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb 4thBro:

 

 

Can't win.

I'm out.

You win another thread, and thus, we see why this game shall never get what it needs.

There are no winners. I hardly know anyone who can be convinced with arguments. Even math fails. Because for some people 2+2 doesn't mean 4 but 22.

At least you remain civilized. That alone is praiseworthy in these difficult times.

[GEN-Son_17]

3 hours ago, 4thBro said:

 

 

Can't win.

I'm out.

You win another thread, and thus, we see why this game shall never get what it needs.

The reason why you "can't win" is because of your last line: "we see why this game shall never get what it needs". That is your fail point. 

A game that has a consistently high player count, constant updates and forum threads that says two opposing things at once, has always been doing "what it needs".

Also, Borderlands becomes trivial and boring after you obtain max level, legendary weapons. This is why there is a Borderlands 3.

[Rakosta_Kai]

On 2024-08-02 at 12:04 PM, Kaiga said:

Why do any of that cool space ninja stuff from the ad when you can just shoot a rocket launcher at everything?

Because many Tenno find the cool space ninja stuff to be more fun?

[GEN-Son_17]

4 hours ago, Rakosta_Kai said:

Because many Tenno find the cool space ninja stuff to be more fun?

Exactly. Warframe is about having fun, not just winning as quickly and as efficiently as possible. The coolest part is both can be done at any time...but it seems like some people only want to focus on only one way. 

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

17 hours ago, 4thBro said:

Okay, I already addressed this, so let me try it again in different words:

 

I didn't just spend a week planning and farming for items, just so that I could take off my items.

 

We are saying that this looter shooter has us looting, but not testing that loot on what we're shooting.

You are saying that we should be happy putting away the loot, from the looter shooter, and just shooting. Without the loot.

 

That's like if I'm playing GTA5, and I say, "These car races are too easy. Please make them harder."

And you, the community, said... "If you want it to be harder, get out of the car and run the race on foot."

It's not a car race if I'm running on foot.

It's not Warframe if I'm not utilizing all my loot.

I'm curious how you'll attempt to dismiss this analogy, though.

"You are saying we should be happy putting away the loot from the looter shooter"

What is straw man? Besides, here's a crazy idea maybe the point of the GAME is the GAMEPLAY? Maybe like, just a though, play the game in a way that appeals to you and let other people do the same instead of throwing an entitled hissy fit like you represent the Will of The One True Valid Game Design and everyone else is a simpleton who doesn't know anything about anything. 

"I don't care if all the other kids are enjoying their pizza, I want mommy to smack it out of their hands and give everyone a salad because I LIKE SALAD and I can't bear to let other people make their own choices"

>buy V8 mustang

>add supercharger 

>add nos

>do weight reduction 

>rebuild engine internals to handle like 90psi of boost 

>reprogram ecu for max performance with the new hardware you spent all that time and money installing

"Omg this is too much this is excessive this is overkill Ford please nerf this S#&$ right now this is BROKEN op unfair reeeee". 

That's how ya'll sound. 

Nobody is saying you gotta use all the primed mods and archon shards and helminth and arcanes and the best meta weapons and rivens and this and that doing everything you can to be as powerful as possible then whine about being too powerful.

 

Some people *like* power fantasy. Some people *like* being "overpowered" in the same way Some people like having a stupid amount of horsepower. 

Oh too bad doesn't matter because only your opinion matters right? 

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

16 hours ago, 4thBro said:

 

 

Can't win.

I'm out.

You win another thread, and thus, we see why this game shall never get what it needs.

You mean what YOU THINK it needs. 

 

8 hours ago, GEN-Son_17 said:

Exactly. Warframe is about having fun, not just winning as quickly and as efficiently as possible. The coolest part is both can be done at any time...but it seems like some people only want to focus on only one way. 

I believe that giving people options on how to play the game is better than telling everyone they have to play it the same way.

For the same reason restaurants have menus.

[Yamazuki]

What's often forgotten is games are a puzzle meant to be solved, and eventually, no matter what is done, games of a given type are going to be 'easy' to some people due to experience. It's not even experience with the game specifically, but just type of game.

For example, Nexon's take on Warframe mixed with others, TFD; Anyone familiar with Warframe likely viewed that as easy, where as a lot of other people struggle at basic things due to lack of experience.

I also find it odd people still want to complain about the 'explosive' category of weapons and their effectiveness. I still use single target weapons just fine, and at no point are you forced into it. What's often suggested as a form of "difficulty" completely enforces the usage of a singular weapon type. Somehow being actually forced into a weapon is better than feeling as if you are, which honestly makes no sense.

Then of course, some of the complaints have nothing to do with difficulty. Being forced into doing finishers, taking cover, or what ever, isn't an increase in difficulty, it's just an obnoxious slowdown of gameplay. What is even the point in playing modern Warframe if you want to slowly kill one enemy at a time with fancy long animations? There's multiple 'loot' based games to choose from if you want slower combat, including cover based combat.

[Tsukinoki]

2 hours ago, Yamazuki said:

What's often forgotten is games are a puzzle meant to be solved, and eventually, no matter what is done, games of a given type are going to be 'easy' to some people due to experience. It's not even experience with the game specifically, but just type of game.

Another example of this is souls-like games.
Sure they can be difficult and hard to approach for a lot of players, but for the people that play them they are all relatively simple and "easy" because once you get the hang of it you can play most souls-like games without too much difficulty.
Elden Ring was challenging for a lot of players, especially the recent DLC.  But for people who've played more souls-like games, it wasn't that bad and the game was quite easy.

2 hours ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

"I don't care if all the other kids are enjoying their pizza, I want mommy to smack it out of their hands and give everyone a salad because I LIKE SALAD and I can't bear to let other people make their own choices"

That's one of the bigger problems that I constantly see in threads like this demanding more "difficulty" or "challenge" (and then never actually defining what they think that is):
When presented with options that they have to make things more difficulty/challenging (Dragon keys, not using prime mods, etc.) they always come back and go "NO!  I don't want to make that choice!  I want the game to make that choice for me!!!!!"

They will clamor on that EDA with its random gear choices and heavy restrictions it puts on players is great difficulty, but when asked to "Just apply that to the rest of the game?" and then suddenly "That's not real difficulty!  I want real difficulty!"

It's like if the "difficulty" isn't mandated from the game, and is a choice that the player has to make, then it's not real difficulty and doesn't count and not what they are looking for.

And I have never gotten a straight reason as to why that's the case, and why it must be the game mandating the difficulty for them and everyone else.

Edited August 11 by Tsukinoki

[4thBro]

4 hours ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

"You are saying we should be happy putting away the loot from the looter shooter"

What is straw man?

Yo, I'm about to start getting somewhat aggressive if people keep playin' this way.

Don't you DARE try to say that's straw man.

 

On 2024-08-09 at 6:13 PM, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

"But I shouldn't have to play with one hand tied behind my back"

^ You, in mocking fashion.

On 2024-08-02 at 2:39 PM, Venus-Venera said:

or remove all mods. There are countless opportunities for "challenges"

On 2024-08-02 at 3:38 PM, (PSN)Unstar said:

Toning down or completely removing your mods is a valid suggestion for players hungry for a challenge, even if it isn't the one that you personally would prefer.

On 2024-08-07 at 2:17 PM, DocNemo said:

Bro, YOU'RE the answer to that issue. You want things to be more difficult, stop running with gauss/wukong/revenant. Play some other frames, play some unusual weapons.

On 2024-08-06 at 11:15 AM, Atomic_Noodles said:

if you want it harder you can always just equip all the Dragon Keys and play the game with weaker versions of the weapons/mods you use.

On 2024-08-04 at 11:01 PM, sardonicmermaid said:

How about making a new account and starting from scratch?

2 hours ago, Tsukinoki said:

When presented with options that they have to make things more difficulty/challenging (Dragon keys, not using prime mods, etc.) they always come back and go "NO!  I don't want to make that choice!  I want the game to make that choice for me!!!!!"

^ This last quote was IN RESPONSE to YOUR post that tried to claim I was straw manning. Isn't that wild? YOU tried to say I was misrepresenting the opposing point when I said people are telling me to put away my loot, and then THIS guy REPLIED TO YOU and mocked my refusal to put away my loot as per many people's suggestions.

THAT'S WILD! You guys are SO DISINGENUOUS!!!!

And this is just me searching the word "mods" within this thread. I'm positive I missed at least a few more posts to quote.

 

  

5 hours ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

Nobody is saying you gotta use all the primed mods and archon shards and helminth and arcanes and the best meta weapons and rivens and this and that doing everything you can to be as powerful as possible then whine about being too powerful.

What's funny is that THIS is the straw man.

 

We're not complaining about being too powerful.

We're complaining about the enemies NOT being powerful.

 

You can argue that they're the same thing, and in a way, they technically are.

However, the part that makes them NOT the same is that we already have our strength. What are ya gonna do, buddy? Take away everyone's Archon Shards and Prime/Galv mods? Wouldn't you say it's a much better solution to increase enemy strength, than it would be to take away probably about 5 years worth of power that players have farmed? And thus, isn't that what we'd be complaining about? Enemy weakness? Not player strength?

Do ya SEE now how it's different?

Do ya SEE now how you're straw manning? It's much easier to make us look bad when you say we're "complaining about being too powerful" because it generally paints us as spoiled children. But if you actually thought about it for roughly 2.5 seconds, you could see the real picture here.

 

But none of this matters, does it? It doesn't matter if I literally and directly point out how you're not discussing in good faith, or if I explain my points flawlessly and clearly, or ANY of that.

BECAUSE you're not discussing in good faith.

This isn't even a discussion. It's a game that you're trying to win. And you'll use any means necessary.

 

 

 

Here's the best summary of this thread, right here:

 

On 2024-08-05 at 8:56 PM, RichardKam said:

Dear sir, you got trashed in that thread. Why you are so proud of it?

 

On 2024-08-05 at 9:31 PM, 4thBro said:

The fact that you say I got "trashed," and therefore view all of this as some kind of competition that you need to "win," really speaks volumes.

 

All that happened in that thread, in terms of guessing what you even mean by "trashed," was that some people said they didn't want the game mode I was suggesting.

 

This interaction was the Big Reveal on the true nature of this "discussion."

[4thBro]

5 hours ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

Some people *like* power fantasy. Some people *like* being "overpowered" in the same way Some people like having a stupid amount of horsepower. 

Oh too bad doesn't matter because only your opinion matters right? 

I'm going to say this for the 750986423rd time:

 

YOU are the one that's gatekeeping.

I don't GIVE a [crap] what you like. YOU are making the CONSTANT POINT that the game ALREADY HAS what you like.

WE are trying to say that, NOW, the game needs what WE like.

And YOU are saying, "NO, DON'T ADD THAT, BECAUSE ONLY I MATTER."

 

Your bait & switch is so painfully obvious, I feel INSANE for even responding to this.

INSANE!

I must be insane. I'm literally, knowingly, arguing with people that are intentionally trolling/arguing in bad faith. What the hell am I doing???

Why do I have a compulsion to attempt to "address and fix" all of these bad faith arguments?

[4thBro]

5 hours ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

You mean what YOU THINK it needs. 

 

5 hours ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

I believe that giving people options on how to play the game is better than telling everyone they have to play it the same way.

For the same reason restaurants have menus.

 

Wh-

WHAT?

LOL. WHAT???

 

I'm literally mind blown. I need to get up from my entire computer after that. I'm not even kidding.

 

...

 

I've been sitting here for 10 pages explaining that this game needs an endgame.

You turn to face me, and you say directly to me...

"You mean what YOU THINK it needs."

And then, possibly without even exhaling, you turn around to someone else, straighten your posture, fix up your tie, and say...

"Yeah, I believe in giving all people the game mode that makes them happy. Also, peace on Earth, and good will towards all!"

 

Dude, I literally...

I need to go shower.

LMAO!

[Rakosta_Kai]

17 minutes ago, 4thBro said:

What's funny is that THIS is the straw man.

 

We're not complaining about being too powerful.

We're complaining about the enemies NOT being powerful.

Actually, that itself would be the strawman...

The Primes, Archons, etc can certainly raise a frame to the point where it meets DPS, Defense, and Skill checks but we all also know that by the time they are attainable you realize you can mod beyond that to the point of making the content trivial too.

While DE has raised that ceiling for what would be considered high level content periodically over the years, they also ensure to add modding options that allow players to trivialize it.

With respect, arguing that the content shouldn't be trivial, after you purposely worked so hard to achieve that goal, is hollow as arguments go.

You spent a lot of time working to make sure you could trivialize the content so why should the Devs take that away from you?

[4thBro]

1 minute ago, Rakosta_Kai said:

With respect, arguing that the content shouldn't be trivial, after you purposely worked so hard to achieve that goal, is hollow as arguments go.

You spent a lot of time working to make sure you could trivialize the content so why should the Devs take that away from you?

I get what you're saying, but I would personally frame it differently (no pun intended).

 

I worked hard to make myself as strong as possible for whatever the game had to offer.

When I looked up from the work bench, there was nothing but ants to step on.

 

To reiterate... My intention was not to make the game trivial. It was, simply, the fact that it was my natural duty to make myself as strong as possible. Because that's what you do, in any game, or any real life scenario.

And, for a game, it's up to that game to properly scale the enemies for said strength that you acquire. I have, quite frankly, never played a game where you get however strong that you get, and then the actual opposition is just totally left in the dust.

 

Even something like... Final Fantasy 10.

 

You can progress through the main game, and the enemies typically scale pretty well alongside you. All the way to the final boss. It feels right, it feels good.

AFTER that point, you can even still get stronger. You can get SO STRONG, that you can actually 1-shot the final bosses, and have absolutely no threat to you in the process.

However, then there's the Monster Arena. The endgame. And you can max out your stats, and it still provides a balanced challenge to you. You can both, feel your power grow as you tackle challenge after challenge in the Monster Arena, while also still remain challenged by it.

By the time I cleared the whole Arena, all my stats were maxed except HP, which was around 19-23k on my characters.

 

I was working on my work bench, getting stronger, and when I looked up... proper challenges awaited me.