Warframe is a game held back by how easy it is

[RichardKam]

9分钟前 , dwqrf 说:

The simple fact he is telling me I'm lying and that I'm standing in the way of his fun is just insane. Next his is going to blame me for everything wrong in his life. I guess when one can't understand that happiness comes from within, he just has to be angry and to push the blame onto others. I wish he could just accept and enjoy things. Theorizing is nice and all, but you can't live there without disconnecting from reality.

This is the Internet. What can you do about it.

Btw, on the topic of roar, he also talked about how thermal sunder cannot kill stuff and the damage is not that good. Actually I know of a youtuber who literally invented a thermal sunder Rhino build so powerful that it can almost one shot most of the SP enemies. It even slipped through DE radar when DE kind of nerf the subsume version because everyone was talking about Sunder Garuda and Titania.

[dwqrf]

il y a 1 minute, RichardKam a dit :

This is the Internet. What can you do about it.

I don't know, but trying is key. I won't let a soul be lost, and I won't let darkness corrupt.

[4thBro]

27 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

Ha sorry, I thought you were 4thbro for a minute. I'm colorblind, you see. (I don't).

See, that's part of the problem right there. You talk to people differently, depending on who they are. That in itself is disingenuous, and even fallacious. (It applies more or less value on a person's words based on factors that aren't the actual words.)

 

18 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

The simple fact he is telling me I'm lying and that I'm standing in the way of his fun is just insane.

But you've been factually lying, and this can be (and has been) proven.

Moreover, you are standing in the way of his fun. Remember that phrase "gatekeep" that I was using a lot earlier? Yeah, turns out, it wasn't for no reason. That's exactly what gatekeeping means. You are trying to stop others from having their fun, even though it has nothing to do with you at all. If you don't want to participate in an endgame, then it never needs to cross your path at all. But, despite this, you keep fighting tooth & nail to keep it out of WF.

I've asked you why this is, a dozen times. But you deflect every time.

 

21 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

Next his is going to blame me for everything wrong in his life.

Case in point. The very next sentence you say is a slippery slope fallacy. Of course that's not what comes next. But saying that allows you to branch off in that direction, and dismiss the other person entirely.

Because that's all you do. Fling around fallacies so that the main topic becomes lost in the sands of time.

Banging those pots & pans together, so that nobody can remain focused, and nobody remembers what we were even talking about anymore, and everyone just wants to leave the room.

And, sadly, you have indeed accomplished this.

 

23 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

I guess when one can't understand that happiness comes from within, he just has to be angry and to push the blame onto others. I wish he could just accept and enjoy things. Theorizing is nice and all, but you can't live there without disconnecting from reality.

And so, naturally, this entire segment is just wayyyy out in left field. Completely and utterly out of nowhere, having to do with nothing, and is completely baseless and is borderline senseless ad hominem.

 

Pots & pans.

 

And when I come in and try to refocus the conversation, you post meme images and go "LOL NERD!"

 

Absolutely catastrophic.

I just hate that it works. It's not even a clever strategy, or skillful execution. It's so elementary. Adolescent, even.

But, hell... It sure does work, doesn't it?

[PHOSPHATIDYLETHANOLAMINE]

20 minutes ago, 4thBro said:

Well, right. That's the point of wanting an endgame.

Endgame? In warframe? Companion app to collect tribute and build daily forma. Now with even less forma bp farm thanks to grace of DE 2x on uncommon relic drops. Such splendor.

[4thBro]

1 minute ago, dwqrf said:

I don't know, but trying is key. I won't let a soul be lost, and I won't let darkness corrupt.

This guy is so far up his own butt, I can't even stand it, LMAO!

 

Quote

Look ! It's screeching again. Go read articles about narcissistic perverse, you freak, maybe you'll then understand why the world hate your kind.

Quote

On the others hand, there is true monsters like @4thBro, which is just a parasite, spewing toxicity everywhere he goes, on life, in school, and in any online plateforme.

 

Same guy, by the way.

That's the same guy.

[MrInubis]

8 minutes ago, 4thBro said:

This guy is so far up his own butt, I can't even stand it, LMAO!

The pot calling the kettle black.

[dwqrf]

il y a 3 minutes, kuciol a dit :

-

Wait what ? They are really fighting about how hard or how easy Warframe is ? :D
I hope phophatewhatever wins, because 4thbro never had any argument. At least, the first one did encounter the final boss.

[4thBro]

15 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

Wait what ? They are really fighting about how hard or how easy Warframe is ? :D
I hope phophatewhatever wins, because 4thbro never had any argument. At least, the first one did encounter the final boss.

This guy is literally smiling at the thought of two people "fighting."

 

The same guy that sees himself as a holy saint.

"I will save all human souls from the eternal darkness."

 

This is your guy.

Lil bro really just said:

They're fighting? :D

 

Like, Jesus F. Christ on a buttermilk biscuit, I'm literally cringing inside out right now. This dude has to be a child. Aint no other way he really just said...

 

 

 

 

They're fighting? :D

 

 

 

 

[4thBro]

Except for accounts, of course.

[Loza03]

8 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

It's not ideal, but "that sucks" is again far too strong a phrase for me to agree. After all, the big picture is that ST weapons are still keeping me very entertained in this game  right now.  And after 7 years.   

I don't know...I think we might be on close to the same page.  I just thought initially you were regarding the use of conventional shotguns in this game as impossible, and that you were sad about it, when my opinion is that it's challenging and sometimes restricting...but very much possible.  But I think I just misunderstood you.

From the sound of things, I think the only difference is patience.

Ultimately, yeah, it's not impossible to use shotguns effectively, and they're still a ton of fun to use. But I'm also frustrated at the fact that using them feels as much like fighting against design intent, and I hate that this is only becoming more and more true over time.

I don't think that we should have to fight the design principles of the game just to play with the weapons we enjoy.

[Loza03]

8 hours ago, dwqrf said:

That's called Marketing. You know, the thing were you try to sell stuff to people. Funny thing, people like damage in video games. Who would have thought you'd try to push your product forward with popular tag and descriptions.

Is that truly irrelevant to Caliban's abilities ? Not really, as 1 can scale, 2 is a multiplicative damage-taken debuff from all sources, 3 deal decent damage anywhere in the star chart and can be buffed from many sources, and when they don't deal damage anymore, they are used for aggro and shield generation more than anything, and 4 is another layer of potential damage due to defense strip, it's either multiplying damage on grineer, or removing a huge chunck of the total health bar of corpus.

You are trying so hard.

This isn't marketing. Marketing is, yes, the 'try and sell stuff to people' - Marketing is the Warframe Profile where they show it against level 1 enemies, or write a flowery description in the marketplace.

Communication, however, is the way by which a dev tells a player, non-verbally and non-textually, elements about a character - usually how that character is meant to be played.

To demonstrate (and popping it in spoiler tags to not make the post too long):

Spoiler

 

Right from the word go, there's an immediate way to tell the difference in how these two characters are meant to be played.

 

And again. This time, both the characters (or Mecha, as these are Titanfall titans) share one element of their design - they're both thin and willowy as giant robots go, with a ton of emphasis on the legs, which suggests they're both fast. However, the choice of weapon illustrates that one is supposed to use that speed to approach, and the other is supposed to use it to play keep-away.

 

And lastly, going with abilities this time, it's visually evident that one of these abilities deals a ton of damage, and the other is a radiant support - a buff or heal.

Basically, a character's theme and how their abilities present is still important.

 

9 hours ago, dwqrf said:

Is that truly irrelevant to Caliban's abilities ? Not really, as 1 can scale, 2 is a multiplicative damage-taken debuff from all sources, 3 deal decent damage anywhere in the star chart and can be buffed from many sources, and when they don't deal damage anymore, they are used for aggro and shield generation more than anything, and 4 is another layer of potential damage due to defense strip, it's either multiplying damage on grineer, or removing a huge chunck of the total health bar of corpus.

The fact remains that one does not typically use a Kamehameha as a debuff.

[dwqrf]

il y a 4 minutes, Loza03 a dit :

This isn't marketing. Marketing is, yes, the 'try and sell stuff to people' - Marketing is the Warframe Profile where they show it against level 1 enemies, or write a flowery description in the marketplace.

Communication, however, is the way by which a dev tells a player, non-verbally and non-textually, elements about a character - usually how that character is meant to be played.

The fact remains that one does not typically use a Kamehameha as a debuff.

So, you are telling me, that for the biggest part of the playerbase, aka, players playing between 50-150h, that could just buy Caliban for real money, won't even mod it, and will play it before level 30, his spells aren't going to do big damage against star chart enemies ?

The biggest base tanky threat those player will meet would be maybe a Heavy gunner, having 3,456 hp at level 30 ; and ho boy, Caliban's 4 will do 2500+2500 damage at level 0 (unlockedn unmodded). That's some pretty good one shot.

For people playing beyond that ? Well, the spells have strong utilities that synergize with each others or with your weapons/teammates.

Try again.

[dwqrf]

Il y a 7 heures, 4thBro a dit :

This guy is literally smiling at the thought of two people "fighting."

The same guy that sees himself as a holy saint.

"I will save all human souls from the eternal darkness."

It has been proven that people suffering from narcissictic disorder don't fit the definition of humans. They don't have a shred of empathy, and no purpose on earth. Google it, it's common knowledge. Sadly, as I can see now, you cannot fight each other because none of you can parasite the shallow argument of the other, so you have nothing to feed on. I'm disapointed, it would have been so funny to see two things that can't admit being ever wrong and can't ever accept defeat, struggle with one another. So no, you don't have a soul to save, you are a lost cause. Keep trying to get my attention, little piece of dust. I've seen buzzing flies with more value in the ecosystem.
 

"If you’ve been in contact with a narcissistic pervert, remember that if he’s chosen you, it’s because you represent to him what he’ll never be able to be: a whole person!"

Back to the mute forever list.

[Thorham]

What a steaming pile of a thread 🙄

[dwqrf]

il y a 1 minute, Thorham a dit :

What a steaming pile of a thread 🙄

Here is a smart person !

Tell us, do you think Warframe is too hard, too easy, or that you like it the way it is ?

[Loza03]

17 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

So, you are telling me, that for the biggest part of the playerbase, aka, players playing between 50-150h, that could just buy Caliban for real money, won't even mod it, and will play it before level 30, his spells aren't going to do big damage against star chart enemies ?

The biggest base tanky threat those player will meet would be maybe a Heavy gunner, having 3,456 hp at level 30 ; and ho boy, Caliban's 4 will do 2500+2500 damage at level 0 (unlockedn unmodded). That's some pretty good one shot.

For people playing beyond that ? Well, the spells have strong utilities that synergize with each others or with your weapons/teammates.

Try again.

Do you have a source for the Demographic claim? Specifically, that players in these playtime ranges are predominately playing unmodded Warframes exclusively in star chart content.

It's a pretty major part of your argument, so curious where you're getting the information from.

 

Also to note, a Heavy Gunner at level 30 has an EHP of 7,915 taking into account armour, which Caliban would interact with on the initial cast of the ability (since the damage that strips armour doesn't benefit from the defenses reduction). An Elite Lancer in that level range has 5063 as well, so technically neither of these enemies would be oneshot in the given example. Furthermore, Sedna's level range is 30-40 (discountin the arenas), and the void likewise, so a Heavy Gunner and Elite Lancer at level 40 would even be able to survive an unmodded level 3 fusion blast quite comfortably! The Heavy Gunner could survive even with the most easily-available mod to boost Caliban's damage for an early-game player too, as the 30% increase in damage from Intensify only brings the damage up to 13,000, whilst a level 40 Elite Gunner has 23,000. Of course a second hit would wipe them out due to the armour strip, but an unmodded Caliban literally does not have enough energy to do two Fusion Strikes in a row. And this does not take into account Eximus units, which are the real largest threat at these levels.

So even the claim that the ability does what it is indubitably supposed to do (be a big damage output power) in this demographic, which I would still like a source for, is somewhat inaccurate.

[dwqrf]

il y a 9 minutes, Loza03 a dit :

Do you have a source for the Demographic claim? Specifically, that players in these playtime ranges are predominately playing unmodded Warframes exclusively in star chart content.

It's a pretty major part of your argument, so curious where you're getting the information from.

I just had to google average player time and that gave me this. On from my experience following new players, it does correlate.
Then of course, you are going to see players playing longer more often because... they play longer. You know ?
 

il y a 10 minutes, Loza03 a dit :

Also to note, a Heavy Gunner at level 30 has an EHP of 7,915 taking into account armour, which Caliban would interact with on the initial cast of the ability (since the damage that strips armour doesn't benefit from the defenses reduction). An Elite Lancer in that level range has 5063 as well, so technically neither of these enemies would be oneshot in the given example. Furthermore, Sedna's level range is 30-40 (discountin the arenas), and the void likewise, so a Heavy Gunner and Elite Lancer at level 40 would even be able to survive an unmodded level 3 fusion blast quite comfortably! The Heavy Gunner could survive even with the most easily-available mod to boost Caliban's damage for an early-game player too, as the 30% increase in damage from Intensify only brings the damage up to 13,000, whilst a level 40 Elite Gunner has 23,000. Of course a second hit would wipe them out due to the armour strip, but an unmodded Caliban literally does not have enough energy to do two Fusion Strikes in a row. And this does not take into account Eximus units, which are the real largest threat at these levels.

So even the claim that the ability does what it is indubitably supposed to do (be a big damage output power) in this demographic, which I would still like a source for, is somewhat inaccurate.

You are totally correct. I even forgot to input that the armor strip is only 50% at base, and doesn't affect the target prior to dealing damage. So indeed, I was wrong. But still ; if you focus on the damage part, it still remove a big chunck of any normal star chart enemies.

If you like numbers so much, would you argue Caliban's 4 does more or less damage than Saryn's 4 ? You know, Caliban's 4 do 10,000 damage, and Saryn's 4 do 900 damage (150/s ; x6 s = 900). Isn't that like one of the most popular damage ability ? Did they lie to us ?

[Thorham]

22 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

Tell us, do you think Warframe is too hard, too easy, or that you like it the way it is ?

I'll pass 😉

[dwqrf]

il y a 12 minutes, Thorham a dit :

I'll pass 😉

I'll take that as a "I can enjoy things and I don't need to argue about if it need changes or not".
Thanks for your input Tenno, have a good one.

[MrInubis]

31 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

So even the claim that the ability does what it is indubitably supposed to do (be a big damage output power) in this demographic, which I would still like a source for, is somewhat inaccurate

Well your only argument is DE's naming scheme and marketing trash talk. I wouldnt call that a good one. DE has very clear intentions, they want us to use weapons for killing on higher levels. Thats why many abilities have secondary effects like in this case armor strip. Many abilities have augments giving them utility like Embers 1 changing it to weapon buff etc. There is very few abilities with just dps purpose and those kill or ramp up.

[Loza03]

27 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

I just had to google average player time and that gave me this. On from my experience following new players, it does correlate.
Then of course, you are going to see players playing longer more often because... they play longer. You know ?
 

This doesn't answer where you got the claim that they don't mod their warframes, or that they only play in star chart content.

These are pretty bold claims.

29 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

You are totally correct. I even forgot to input that the armor strip is only 50% at base, and doesn't affect the target prior to dealing damage. So indeed, I was wrong. But still ; if you focus on the damage part, it still remove a big chunck of any normal star chart enemies.

Given that it's a 100 energy cost ability that Caliban can only afford to cast a couple times in a given mission at all (taking into consideration the claim that you're making of an unmodded frame) that's still disappointing.

49 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

If you like numbers so much, would you argue Caliban's 4 does more or less damage than Saryn's 4 ? You know, Caliban's 4 do 10,000 damage, and Saryn's 4 do 900 damage (150/s ; x6 s = 900). Isn't that like one of the most popular damage ability ? Did they lie to us ?

Well, right from the word go, Saryn's 4 deals 4X damage when affecting enemies already affected with spores up to 4500 damage, which also have their armour reduced since spores deal corrosive damage. It also is a damage-over-time ability that procs viral, further increasing the potential damage by another two times (9,000 damage).

However, there's two further factors.

First, Miasma only costs 75 energy, and Saryn has more energy in the tank. Saryn at base has three casts of the ability to Calibans one - or two casts if counting the energy expenditure of the initial cast of spores.

Secondly, Miasma hits a larger area, and can therefore be expected to hit more enemies. Caliban's area of effect is, loosely speaking, a cone covering 350 meters squared (in ideal circumstances) plus a 10 meter explosion covering a further 314 - however, these areas overlap, and the full effect is only felt in the overlapping range (for ease, an area of roughly 107 meters squared, with enemies outside only taking half damage and potentially not suffering the armour strip). Saryn's Miasma, by comparison, covers 1256 meters squared. This functions as further multiplier, because a larger area affects more enemies. Warframe abilities don't have damage falloff, so it's a simple function of total damage multiplied by number of enemies hit. 

[Loza03]

48 minutes ago, kuciol said:

Well your only argument is DE's naming scheme and marketing trash talk. I wouldnt call that a good one. DE has very clear intentions, they want us to use weapons for killing on higher levels. Thats why many abilities have secondary effects like in this case armor strip. Many abilities have augments giving them utility like Embers 1 changing it to weapon buff etc. There is very few abilities with just dps purpose and those kill or ramp up.

I've already explained the difference between marketing and design communication. These are different concepts. 

But to consider: if the intention is for players to not use these abilities to do damage as a primary purpose... why do they do damage at all? Doesn't that just confuse the design? Especially the 'on higher levels' qualifier - why would you design a core system (abilities) to have an entirely different role in one part of the game than another, without any changes to the core functionality of that ability?

 

Why design abilities to be able to kill at low levels, but not high levels?

[dwqrf]

il y a 18 minutes, Loza03 a dit :

This doesn't answer where you got the claim that they don't mod their warframes, or that they only play in star chart content.

These are pretty bold claims.

I didn't say they don't mod their warframe. I said the ability without any mod and any level still has a great impact in the normal star chart. A lot of people don't get out of the normal star chart and still have a lot of fun with the tools they have. Not everybody need to sink thousand of hours into a game to enjoy it.
 

il y a 18 minutes, Loza03 a dit :

Well, right from the word go, Saryn's 4 deals 4X damage when affecting enemies already affected with spores up to 4500 damage, which also have their armour reduced since spores deal corrosive damage. It also is a damage-over-time ability that procs viral, further increasing the potential damage by another two times (9,000 damage).

However, there's two further factors.

First, Miasma only costs 75 energy, and Saryn has more energy in the tank. Saryn at base has three casts of the ability to Calibans one - or two casts if counting the energy expenditure of the initial cast of spores.

Secondly, Miasma hits a larger area, and can therefore be expected to hit more enemies. Caliban's area of effect is, loosely speaking, a cone covering 350 meters squared (in ideal circumstances) plus a 10 meter explosion covering a further 314 - however, these areas overlap, and the full effect is only felt in the overlapping range (for ease, an area of roughly 107 meters squared, with enemies outside only taking half damage and potentially not suffering the armour strip). Saryn's Miasma, by comparison, covers 1256 meters squared. This functions as further multiplier, because a larger area affects more enemies. Warframe abilities don't have damage falloff, so it's a simple function of total damage multiplied by number of enemies hit. 

So now you take contexts, synergies, and additionnal factors, and perfect set-up into account to fit your narrative ? Great...

il y a 13 minutes, Loza03 a dit :

I've already explained the difference between marketing and design communication. These are different concepts. 

But to consider: if the intention is for players to not use these abilities to do damage as a primary purpose... why do they do damage at all? Doesn't that just confuse the design? Especially the 'on higher levels' qualifier - why would you design a core system (abilities) to have an entirely different role in one part of the game than another, without any changes to the core functionality of that ability?

Why design abilities to be able to kill at low levels, but not high levels?

Funny thing, Fusion Strike has a better impact than Miasma on level cap enemies due to its permanent 100% defense strip.

Edited August 29 by dwqrf

[Loza03]

9 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

I didn't say they don't mod their warframe. I said the ability without any mod and any level still has a great impact in the normal star chart. A lot of people don't get out of the normal star chart and still have a lot of fun with the tools they have. Not everybody need to sink thousand of hours into a game to enjoy it.

You literally did though.

2 hours ago, dwqrf said:

So, you are telling me, that for the biggest part of the playerbase, aka, players playing between 50-150h, that could just buy Caliban for real money, won't even mod it, and will play it before level 30, his spells aren't going to do big damage against star chart enemies ?

(Emphasis mine)

11 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

So now you take contexts, synergies, and additionnal factors, and perfect set-up into account to fit your narrative ? Great...

This is a different context, which is discussing which is a better ability. Also, I was following your own context which was an unmodded ability in the first place.

That being said within the original context (the effective communication of ability function), Miasma works perfectly. Saryn releases a cloud of gas to deal damage. It does exactly what the ability would suggest it does. In general Saryn's kit works really well for that. Spores is described as an infectious disease, and it behaves as such, dealing good damage (the game even throws up a counter of how much damage you're doing to emphasise it, which is nice). Molt's a defensive buff to take aggro off, and it works that way. Toxic lash is a damage buff and it behaves as a damage buff. None of Caliban's issues with the frame's ability design supposedly conflicting with their actual role (at least in how you're claiming it, which is that Caliban is apparently supposed to be a debuffing frame first, damage frame second)

13 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

Funny thing, Fusion Strike has a better impact than Miasma on level cap enemies due to its permanent 100% defense strip.

Cool. That kind of just emphasises problems abilities face in terms of doing damage.

[dwqrf]

il y a 13 minutes, Loza03 a dit :

You literally did though.

Yes, it was highly hypothetical. Players that would buy Caliban and won't even mod could still do big damage in the star chart. Sorry if that's confusing you, English isn't my native language and expressing it isn't always flowing as I would like it to. It's about expressing that even unmodded frame can still use spells to do stuff in star chart. I'm not suggesting that players won't mod anything. I was just trying to talk about flat numbers with the only context of star chart enemies ; nothing else.

 

il y a 19 minutes, Loza03 a dit :

This is a different context, which is discussing which is a better ability. Also, I was following your own context which was an unmodded ability in the first place.

But you did add the synergy with both supposing the presence of spores and the flat +200% damage from viral ignoring the ramping up factor. So you biased your argument.
 

il y a 21 minutes, Loza03 a dit :

None of Caliban's issues with the frame's ability design supposedly conflicting with their actual role (at least in how you're claiming it, which is that Caliban is apparently supposed to be a debuffing frame first, damage frame second)

But I said many time that Caliban, from the point of view of endgame, isn't a damage frame or a spell caster for that matter. I said he was only a weapon plateforme using debuff, and it happens that his abilities also do damage, which is completely irrelevant compared the to ulility provided. But if you don't take in the context of endgame, then new players reading his skill and using it normal star chart, even unmodded, while still do evident damage as the ability says.
 

il y a 23 minutes, Loza03 a dit :

Cool. That kind of just emphasises problems abilities face in terms of doing damage.

But taking into account all possible synergies ; defense strip is a huge amount of dps increase for all sources. It's not because the ability doesn't do damage itself that it doesn't allow damage. Like Miasma doing viral status and being multiplied by Spores. But Miasma alone doesnt do sh*t.