Melee stance reworks/updates.

[Mage_of_Mind]

I recently became LR4 and i own every melee weapon and ive used every stance.

stance mods, they are MOST DEFINETELY not made equally. This is also regardless of mod rarity, which seems totally arbitrary. Some of the hardest to acquire mods arent impressive compared to their easier to acquire and sometimes lower rarity counterparts. My issue isnt so much with the numbers and stats, rather the animations or lack thereof in many cases. A solid portion of stances only have 3 combos. Some only have "combos" are just 1 animation. Some DE forsaken stances only have 2 combos. For example, Shimmering blight. You get the neutral combo that cover all your combination except moving and block which is really cool and useful combo but thats the extent the stance goes to diversify the move set, other than that its braindead hallway blender over and over and over. The exception to the rule are the claw stances which should be used as a model for the rest of the stances. Each one Malicious Raptor, Vermillion Storm, & Four Riders all have similar power levels, a fully fleshed out move set, the same polarity, different reasons to pick one over the other according to the set of claws and their stats, not just whatever stance fits the weapon.

Grim Fury....this stance doesnt even match the polarity of a single sparring weapon. The Hirudo, Kogake/prime, Korrudo, Opex/prisma none of them can use this stance and gain its full benefits. Then theres Fracturing Wind, which is for fists and can only be used by the Aknyros Prime which is 1/8 of all the fist weapons. A stance that isnt matching which  means a dropped mod or a need for extra forma or god forbid a stance forma.

Stance forma was the biggest mistake. It affirmed my fear when it came out. i was really hoping stances could be universal and make melee weapons more fun. it would also have incentivized DE to buff the ones that were clearly underperforming. Why not also alter some of the Conclave stances and add them as ones to use in the main game as well? Theres so much depth that can be added to melee weapons as a whole if the stances were more dynamic. The only setback i see this making is people gravitating towards the best weapons and leaving more things in the dirt when you can just use your favorite stance in the best of class weapon. I know not everyone thinks like i do but this would encourage me to dust off more relics ive had for the last 10 years.
If i got what i wanted, i have a feeling many people would enjoy all of their melee weapons having new and cool animations and access to more mod variety, which this game has none of in practicality. 

Edited August 29 by Mage_of_Mind
Forgot about some stance mods because of how irrelevant they are

[Zakkhar]

1 hour ago, Mage_of_Mind said:

stance mods, they are MOST DEFINETELY not made equally.

So, what is the problem? Do you want everything to be the same?

1 hour ago, Mage_of_Mind said:

Stance forma was the biggest mistake

It is useless. Doesnt make it a mistake.

Edited August 29 by Zakkhar

[quxier]

10 minutes ago, Zakkhar said:

1 hour ago, Mage_of_Mind said:

stance mods, they are MOST DEFINETELY not made equally.

So, what is the problem? Do you want everything to be the same?

You need to read more than that sentence.

1 hour ago, Mage_of_Mind said:

MOST DEFINETELY not made equally. This is also regardless of mod rarity, which seems totally arbitrary. Some of the hardest to acquire mods arent impressive compared to their easier to acquire and sometimes lower rarity counterparts. My issue isnt so much with the numbers and stats, rather the animations or lack thereof in many cases. A solid portion of stances only have 3 combos.

Or was it edited so you haven't seen that?

[Zakkhar]

1 hour ago, quxier said:

Or was it edited so you haven't seen that?

I have read that. I still stand with my point. Unless we want everything the same, some stances will have different animations and number of moves. And inevitably some will offer better DPS than others.

Edited August 29 by Zakkhar

[dwqrf]

il y a 4 minutes, Zakkhar a dit :

I still stand

Always important to have a good stance.

[quxier]

1 minute ago, Zakkhar said:

1 hour ago, quxier said:

Or was it edited so you haven't seen that?

I have read that. I still stand with my point. Unless we want everything the same, some stances will have different animations and number of moves.

Having same number of moves won't automatically make stance "same".

I mean... you can say in "literal sense" that missing move makes different stance. However that's not great answer imho. Say you have 2 same stances (everything is exactly the same). You remove 1 move from 1 stance. They are now different because they have different number of moves. Sure, it's exaggerated example but change "remove move" with "broken move". While it's still not everything is 0 or 1 (clear distinction) Lots of stances are very similar. Having less moves won't make them different.

[Zakkhar]

59 minutes ago, quxier said:

Having same number of moves won't automatically make stance "same".

In one of the boxes, it does. Not having this restriction gives more space to creativity.

59 minutes ago, quxier said:

They are now different because they have different number of moves

If you wanted to prove my point, you did.

59 minutes ago, quxier said:

Having less moves won't make them different.

It will. If you do not look at a stance in a vacuum. Stance are not just combos: Neutral, Forward, Tactical, Forward Tactical + others. It is how these combos connect. If you were to just spam E a Combo with two moves will look completely different to Combo with 3 moves. It is like dance or music. WIth 3 move Combo you have an option to animationcancel last move or two last moves, with 2 move stance you can keep canceling one. You can do combinations, press forward before E combo finishes or press Rmouse before it does, it cancels the move and starts a different combo.

It is like saying, lowering a tempo by one quarter doesnt make it different (4/4 to 3/4). It makes all the difference in the world.

Some stances are trash not because of number of moves in their combos but due to very poor hitboxes, number of hits compared to animation duration or due to offering extensive (unwanted) movement that repositions the player character. It takes away the players agency, where positioning should be done with  directional movements in case there is a need, not with with every attack move in the combo. Sure, there may be an option to use such attack on eg. tactical forward combo, but not on neutral. Lets not even go into forced procs territory.

 

Edited August 29 by Zakkhar

[quxier]

1 hour ago, Zakkhar said:

1 hour ago, quxier said:

Having less moves won't make them different.

It will. If you do not look at a stance in a vacuum. Stance are not just combos: Neutral, Forward, Tactical, Forward Tactical + others. It is how these combos connect. If you were to just spam E a Combo with two moves will look completely different to Combo with 3 moves. It is like dance or music. WIth 3 move Combo you have an option to animationcancel last move or two last moves, with 2 move stance you can keep canceling one. You can do combinations, press forward before E combo finishes or press Rmouse before it does, it cancels the move and starts a different combo.

I feel like deep down there is issue of translations & dialogue than OP's problem itself.

You are saying that limiting will lead to different playstyles. Well, it's true in theory. In practice, in case of Warframe, it''s far from true. You have 2 combos & 3 combos like you said in your example. What happens when your 1 combo in 3-combo stance is broken? You use only 2 combos, similar to 2-combo stance.

When you have 2-combo stances & 1 3-combo stance AND you add 1 combo to 2-combos (making three 3-combo stances) you are not making them same by mere adding 1 combo. 3rd combo MAY be different. So let's say that Stance1 will spin around. Stance2 will charge attack for e.g. 3x more damage. So adding 1 more combo will create different playstyles. In 1st case you will probably deal with a lot of weak enemies. In second case it could be 1 eximus. Of course it's not so simple (more later) but it has potential to be. Hence "more combos have potential to have more different styles NOT same styles".

1 hour ago, Zakkhar said:

Some stances are trash not because of number of moves in their combos but due to very poor hitboxes, number of hits compared to animation duration or due to offering extensive (unwanted) movement that repositions the player character. It takes away the players agency, where positioning should be done with  directional movements in case there is a need, not with with every attack move in the combo. Sure, there may be an option to use such attack on eg. tactical forward combo, but not on neutral. Lets not even go into forced procs territory.

There is imho huge issue with melees if someone cares more than "spam E". I've recently checked all stances for "basic" issues and most (if not all) have movement issue (e.g. standing combo moves you):

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1407741-list-basic-melee-stances-issues-standing-combo-moves-moving-combo-is-slow-no-backward-combo/

Without fixing & changing (make more variety etc) melee system will still be crude at some points. That why we have new weaposn that are just "looks good" but have 0 new functionatlity like Sun & moon dual nikana. Compare it to new Ghoulsaw's ride mechanic. That's however would be HUGE topic.

1 hour ago, Zakkhar said:

1 hour ago, quxier said:

Having same number of moves won't automatically make stance "same".

In one of the boxes, it does. Not having this restriction gives more space to creativity.

I'm not sure what you are talking about. More moves doesn't restricts you. It gives you opportunity to use different moves. It leads to more creativity.

 

I get the general idea of restrictions. I like Duviri for that reason. Sure, it's not perfect (especially after you get all ranks). However there are interaction between you and enemy. Enemy can block you so you cannot just stand and hit him. One enemy just knockdown you. In warframe case? You mostly have question where do I attack. It's about movement. If you have less moves it won't change facts that you still have to move. It may be "different" but it's at the same time more boring. You are not limiting interactions - you are limiting moves.

I was vivid "Disarmer Xaku" player. It wasn't perfect but you could disarm enemies. So disarm > roll (shorten rolls with old Amalgam mod) > proc some void & attack. Compare it to nowadays: grab X guns (repeat if needed) > press 4th from time to time. Eximus change & Xaku nerf make my style "more same" to others. So, like with stances, less moves = less creativity.

[Zakkhar]

10 minutes ago, quxier said:

2 hours ago, Zakkhar said:

2 hours ago, quxier said:

Having same number of moves won't automatically make stance "same".

In one of the boxes, it does. Not having this restriction gives more space to creativity.

I'm not sure what you are talking about. More moves doesn't restricts you. It gives you opportunity to use different moves. It leads to more creativity.

You dont understand me because you are mixing terms.

Stances (eg. Gemini Cross) consist of Combos (eg. Vagrant Blight aka E aka Neutral combo).

Combos consist of moves (in Vagrant Blight there are 5). You seem to be using the word moves in the meaning of combos.

Edited August 29 by Zakkhar

[Tiltskillet]

6 hours ago, Mage_of_Mind said:

I recently became LR4 and i own every melee weapon and ive used every stance.

stance mods, they are MOST DEFINETELY not made equally. This is also regardless of mod rarity, which seems totally arbitrary. Some of the hardest to acquire mods arent impressive compared to their easier to acquire and sometimes lower rarity counterparts. My issue isnt so much with the numbers and stats, rather the animations or lack thereof in many cases. A solid portion of stances only have 3 combos. Some only have "combos" are just 1 animation. Some DE forsaken stances only have 2 combos. For example, Shimmering blight. You get the neutral combo that cover all your combination except moving and block which is really cool and useful combo but thats the extent the stance goes to diversify the move set, other than that its braindead hallway blender over and over and over. The exception to the rule are the claw stances which should be used as a model for the rest of the stances. Each one Malicious Raptor, Vermillion Storm, & Four Riders all have similar power levels, a fully fleshed out move set, the same polarity, different reasons to pick one over the other according to the set of claws and their stats, not just whatever stance fits the weapon.

Grim Fury....this stance doesnt even match the polarity of a single sparring weapon. The Hirudo, Kogake/prime, Korrudo, Opex/prisma none of them can use this stance and gain its full benefits. Then theres Fracturing Wind, which is for fists and can only be used by the Aknyros Prime which is 1/8 of all the fist weapons. A stance that isnt matching which  means a dropped mod or a need for extra forma or god forbid a stance forma.

 

All my +1s.

5 hours ago, Zakkhar said:

So, what is the problem? Do you want everything to be the same?

You don't think there is a lot of room for stance improvements without making "everything the same"?

[Zakkhar]

10 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

You don't think there is a lot of room for stance improvements without making "everything the same"?

I think there is and I ever wrote what is went wrong and should be fixed,  but premise "they are MOST DEFINETELY not made equally" kinda stinks. Especiallly the word equality/equally. That word kills variety (as shown by current politics).

Edited August 29 by Zakkhar

[quxier]

3 hours ago, Zakkhar said:

3 hours ago, quxier said:

5 hours ago, Zakkhar said:

6 hours ago, quxier said:

Having same number of moves won't automatically make stance "same".

In one of the boxes, it does. Not having this restriction gives more space to creativity.

I'm not sure what you are talking about. More moves doesn't restricts you. It gives you opportunity to use different moves. It leads to more creativity.

You dont understand me because you are mixing terms.

Stances (eg. Gemini Cross) consist of Combos (eg. Vagrant Blight aka E aka Neutral combo).

Combos consist of moves (in Vagrant Blight there are 5). You seem to be using the word moves in the meaning of combos.

At this point I'm not sure if you are not ok with:

1) same amount of moves in combo

2) same amount of combos per stance

3) or word "equality" because you think OP want all stances doing exactly the same

I have hard time to understand where is problem and I don't feel like wasting too much time on it. So let me say few things. Different amount of 1&2 doesn't make stance better. In case of 3, I bet I'm overthinking, but that's not what OP thinks. OP just wants every stance to have similar number of moves per combo and  all 4 combos (standing, moving, block and block+moving). There are other issues but I  think those are one of first thing DE should do (or plan).

[Zakkhar]

3 hours ago, quxier said:

1) same amount of moves in combo

Artificial restriction, no reason to have that. Not ok.

3 hours ago, quxier said:

2) same amount of combos per stance

Thats what we got atm, with the difference that some stances have eg. Neutral and Forward combo do exactly the same thing. The game will not work properly if you just remove one moveset, imagine you hold E and then press Forward and your Melee stops because the Forward combo is empty. 

3 hours ago, quxier said:

3) or word "equality" because you think OP want all stances doing exactly the same

I do not think what OP wants. I do not know what he wants. I refer to what he wrote and how he wrote it. 

3 hours ago, quxier said:

Different amount of 1&2 doesn't make stance better.

It doesnt, but having that option unrestricted gives more variety. In a cooking show a dish with more ingredients is not necesarily better than one with less, but if all contestants have limited amount of ingredients (because everyone needs to use the same amount) they will not create the best possible dish they could. 

3 hours ago, quxier said:

In case of 3, I bet I'm overthinking, but that's not what OP thinks.

That is what he wrote. If it is not what he thinks, he should spend more time to analyse the source of the problem before writing a preambule. First impression is important.

3 hours ago, quxier said:

OP just wants every stance to have similar number of moves per combo

Then I am strongly against it (and any sane person would be). See the cooking show comparison above. And still the equal amount of moves will not make the stances equal, because amount is one thing, but there is also speed, hitbox (eg. 360), number of hits per move, multiplliers and forced procs. Making all those equal will make everything equal for sure. But how boring and bland.

3 hours ago, quxier said:

all 4 combos (standing, moving, block and block+moving)

We already have that. You mean all combos doing different things (but with same amount of moves, duh). So inconsistent.

 

Edited August 29 by Zakkhar

[quxier]

45 minutes ago, Zakkhar said:

3 hours ago, quxier said:

2) same amount of combos per stance

Thats what we got atm, with the difference that some stances have eg. Neutral and Forward combo do exactly the same thing. The game will not work properly if you just remove one moveset, imagine you hold E and then press Forward and your Melee stops because the Forward combo is empty. 

Let me be very precise. I meant combos that are "different". If e.g. moving and block+moving combo looks the same then they are the same. We say that stance is missing combo while we meant that stance re-use combo.

 

48 minutes ago, Zakkhar said:

4 hours ago, quxier said:

3) or word "equality" because you think OP want all stances doing exactly the same

I do not think what OP wants. I do not know what he wants. I refer to what he wrote and how he wrote it. 

54 minutes ago, Zakkhar said:

4 hours ago, quxier said:

In case of 3, I bet I'm overthinking, but that's not what OP thinks.

That is what he wrote. If it is not what he thinks, he should spend more time to analyse the source of the problem before writing a preambule. First impression is important.

OP hasn't written anything like this. They said about:

- lack of DIFFERENT combos (as in stances resuses combos)

- lack of animation (e.g. combo can have 1 animation/move)

- how good stance is (whatever it exactly means)

Based on world

14 hours ago, Mage_of_Mind said:

equally

you cannot say that.

I have NO IDEA how you deduced that meaning.

58 minutes ago, Zakkhar said:

4 hours ago, quxier said:

OP just wants every stance to have similar number of moves per combo

Then I am strongly against it (and any sane person would be). See the cooking show comparison above. And still the equal amount of moves will not make the stances equal, because amount is one thing, but there is also speed, hitbox (eg. 360), number of hits per move, multiplliers and forced procs. Making all those equal will make everything equal for sure. But how boring and bland.

Similar doesn't mean equal. For example you Defiled snap drago has Blocking 1 move while Standing 5. It would be fine (not good but "oh well") if there were few stances per melee type so you can pick one where e.g. every combo has at least few (e.g. 3) moves.

That's why I believe there should be some sort of

 

 

[Zakkhar]

56 minutes ago, quxier said:

Defiled snap drago has Blocking 1 move while Standing 5. I

Ok. And I understand in your opinion and OP this is somehow bad?

Neutral has 5 moves but its duration is only 4,2 seconds. Blocking has 1 move, but its duration is 1,4s and it ragdolls, while the ragdoll move is 4th in tthe Neutral combo.

Blocking 1 if held for 5 moves has now 5 moves. But you can choose to change the combo any time, by pressing different combination of buttons. 

How do you propose to change it? Do you want to cut number of moves in Neutral combo? Is 5 too high?

Or do you want to make more moves in the Block combo? You'd have to make them each more powerful than previous, else people would just animation cancel on first or just change to to or intertwine different combo to cancel the sequence and you would be essennetially nerfing this combo. Amount of moves does not make a combo better or worse. What those moves are, how fast they are and what they offer is much more important.

They are situational. If you want to ragdoll, you do block, if you want to keep ragdollin,g you keep doing block, if there is nothing else to Ragdoll you go for the Neutral combo (it also has Ragdoll, but on 4th move). You are probably thinking: "Ragdoll? Why would I want to ragdoll anything?" You probably wouldnt and on many enemies it doesnt work at all, but it still triggers a little arcane called Melee Afflictions.

56 minutes ago, quxier said:

That's why I believe there should be some sort of

That is overcompllicated for a game like Warframe. It works in fighting games (eg. Street Fighter), because there is only one enemy and the duel is in 2D. Nobody in WF will do (or even remember) intricate combinations of buttons in order to execute a move.

Edited August 30 by Zakkhar

[Tiltskillet]

9 hours ago, Zakkhar said:

 . . . but premise "they are MOST DEFINETELY not made equally" kinda stinks. Especiallly the word equality/equally. That word kills variety (as shown by current politics).

I don't think the OP is asking for whatever kind of equality you're worried about.

As evidence, they did give the example of claw stances...

16 hours ago, Mage_of_Mind said:

The exception to the rule are the claw stances which should be used as a model for the rest of the stances. Each one Malicious Raptor, Vermillion Storm, & Four Riders all have similar power levels, a fully fleshed out move set , the same polarity, different reasons to pick one over the other . . .

...which I basically agree with.  Three different stances. DPS in the same ballpark but emphasized in different places.  Full set of combos on each.  And they feel  distinct from each other.

[PHOSPHATIDYLETHANOLAMINE]

So combos in Warframe means you have 3 types of light attacks and Heavy is always the same. Imagine second heavy.
You cannot change input of those 3 ligth attacks
- they will be dictated by movement and block,
- block also holsters into gun (zoom)
- you cannot quick block combo before choosing either forward or neutral to unholster
Unless quick unholster into quickspell > quickblock combo.
 Very problematic to do so mid-air or to avoid accidental wall-latch.

Different amount of 1&2 doesn't make stance better   .
It does
you can choose to change the combo any time, by pressing different comination of buttons
Diffirent* and no, not any time. Sometimes combos reset and do not count properly.
Often I'm trying to start forward into block only to find out neutral has me to stop and resets counter before 4th attack.

Not ideal but I was expecting way more given what combinations usually mean.
1111, 2222, 3333 is not combo.
1114, 1255 is what used to be standard where 4th and 5th attacks are only achieveable with correct sequence and are otherwise not able to be performed by simply spamming.
^not sure about you guys but this is mk1 Bo lvl intel.

Obviously catering toward gamepad casuals, give up.
Remember the game where could choose meele attacks? This is what everyone wanted. Not Patapon

Edited August 30 by PHOSPHATIDYLETHANOLAMINE

[quxier]

38 minutes ago, Zakkhar said:

1 hour ago, quxier said:

Defiled snap drago has Blocking 1 move while Standing 5. I

Ok. And I understand in your opinion and OP this is somehow bad?

Yes.

40 minutes ago, Zakkhar said:

Or do you want to make more moves in the Block combo? You'd have to make them each more powerful than previous, else people would just animation cancel on first or just change to to or intertwine different combo to cancel the sequence and you would be essennetially nerfing this combo. Amount of moves does not make a combo better or worse. What those moves are, how fast they are and what they offer is much more important.

Yeah, I would add 1-2 moves.

45 minutes ago, Zakkhar said:

1 hour ago, quxier said:

That's why I believe there should be some sort of

That is overcompllicated for a game like Warframe. It works in fighting games (eg. Street Fighter), because there is only one enemy and the duel is in 2D. Nobody in WF will do (or even remember) intricate combinations of buttons in order to execute a move.

Hey, I'm still talking about your very basic WSAD + melee + optional block AT LEAST. With DIY stances you can modify stances. You could for example remove animations/moves that is broken like frame slashes around instead of moving. DIY stances would let US fix stances.

You could do something more complicated but you don't have to. You could for example made stance that proc certain things on first attacks (e.g pull).

[PHOSPHATIDYLETHANOLAMINE]

4 minutes ago, quxier said:

 stance that proc certain things on first attacks (e.g pull).

Do I smell stance modding kai?
Since who though giving space ninjas rocket launchers as an idea of fun.

[quxier]

42 minutes ago, PHOSPHATIDYLETHANOLAMINE said:

49 minutes ago, quxier said:

 stance that proc certain things on first attacks (e.g pull).

Do I smell stance modding kai?

Seeing Tennokai... no. :D

43 minutes ago, PHOSPHATIDYLETHANOLAMINE said:

Since who though giving space ninjas rocket launchers as an idea of fun.

I don't know. I like that old idea of rocket jump.

[Zakkhar]

5 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

I don't think the OP is asking for whatever kind of equality you're worried about.

But he is, or at least in quxier interpretation: 

8 hours ago, Zakkhar said:

11 hours ago, quxier said:

OP just wants every stance to have similar number of moves per combo

Then I am strongly against it (and any sane person would be). See the cooking show comparison above. And still the equal amount of moves will not make the stances equal, because amount is one thing, but there is also speed, hitbox (eg. 360), number of hits per move, multiplliers and forced procs. Making all those equal will make everything equal for sure. But how boring and bland.

Artificially forced restriction on one of the factors = equality. But it is fake.

Edited August 30 by Zakkhar

[Mage_of_Mind]

On 2024-08-29 at 4:36 AM, Zakkhar said:

So, what is the problem? Do you want everything to be the same?

It is useless. Doesnt make it a mistake.

did you even read my post, i read everything you posted and im not gonna bother. you took some random point and ran with it and totally missed my point.

[Zakkhar]

2 minutes ago, Mage_of_Mind said:

you took some random point and ran with it 

Why did you include it? Do not include it next time. If a point doesnt correspond with the rest of your statement (or contradicts it) and you included it anyway. It is on you for confusing people. Not on them for responding to it.

Edited August 31 by Zakkhar