New augment mod "Burning Hate" is terrible.

[Traumtulpe]

There are three ways to use this mod:

1) Prime enemies with Heat, then attack with the Hate as usual.

2) Mod the Hate to cause mainly Heat procs and use as normal otherwise.

3) Hit enemies with the Hate to increase the damage of Heat procs from other weapons.

Quite frankly, 2) is just a straight debuff. It is out of the question, in large part due to the available Arcanes.

In the case of 1), the "augment" is merely a 120% status damage stat - how is this worthy of being an augment mod exactly? It doesn't do anything other mods don't already do (arguably better).

3) is ridiculous. Doubly so because enemies where you might even consider doing such a silly thing have a status cap of 4, meaning it isn't a viable tactic (120% of 0 is 0).

In summary, the absolute best case scenario for the mod is that it provides a flat 120% status damage increase, given that the player uses a primer. Do you believe that players are so starved for mods as to want to put a mod that says "120% extra status damage" on the Hate? I mean, you *could* do it. The mod is technically usable.

Do you seriously think "120% extra status damage" is what an augment mod should read as?? There is nothing being augmented here. There is no change to playstyle, there is no flavour (aside from the name of the mod!), it's just a boring and not even very good stat!

Look, I get it, the Hate is already very powerful and you didn't want to make it even more powerful, so you gave it a garbage augment mod on purpose. But for heavens sake at least make it somehow interesting!

[Agall]

25 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

I was hoping for a mod similar to the Dread's augment, so when I saw that first I was so excited, to be incredibly disappointed by the Hate one. I really don't see where this fits in unless you're only modding viral and doing heavy attacks, priming with the projectiles to get those heat procs.

[dwqrf]

4) Inflict Heat status damage from any source -> Hit with Hate -> Improve every status damage from all sources on target. Not just Heat as you claim with 3). 🤷‍♂️

[Traumtulpe]

4 minutes ago, Agall said:

I really don't see where this fits

You *could* use this on a basic max crit heavy attack build, as well as on a Melee Influence build (priming with, for example, the Epitaph Prime).

It *is* usable, it's just makes no effing difference at all. Have this mod in the slot, or Melee Elementalist. Same thing, except Elementalist is honestly probably better due to the heavy attack speed, which is atrocious by default on scythes.

This is not an augment in any sense, it's at best a sidegrade to an optional basic mod.

[Agall]

1 minute ago, Traumtulpe said:

Elementalist is honestly probably better due to the heavy attack speed, which is atrocious by default on scythes.

This is not an augment in any sense, it's at best a sidegrade to an optional basic mod.

Yup, 100% agree. I was really hoping for utility, the Dread got it and the Hate got a throw-away mod.

[dwqrf]

il y a 3 minutes, Traumtulpe a dit :

You *could* use this on a basic max crit heavy attack build, as well as on a Melee Influence build (priming with, for example, the Epitaph Prime).

It *is* usable, it's just makes no effing difference at all. Have this mod in the slot, or Melee Elementalist. Same thing, except Elementalist is honestly probably better due to the heavy attack speed, which is atrocious by default on scythes.

This is not an augment in any sense, it's at best a sidegrade to an optional basic mod.

Or maybe the simple fact it can improve the status damage for the others weapons, spells, and players, is some concept you can't grasp. 🤡

[Agall]

5 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

This is not an augment in any sense, it's at best a sidegrade to an optional basic mod.

Thinking about it, I think the Hate augment is designed to be used with Dread and Despair. Although if you want some real swanky gameplay, Dread Incarnon with Skiajati could keep you permanently stealthed with some sort of finisher ability, comboed in with [Arcane Trickery] and you're always stealthed.

2 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

Or maybe the simple fact it can improve the status damage for the others weapons, spells, and players, is some concept you can't grasp. 🤡

Ah yes, priming enemies with status damage to already dead enemies. You're not tickling enemies, even level cap ones with Hate Incarnon, especially if you're running a heavy attack setup. These sorts of setups where this Hate augment would benefit are few and niche, nothing Harmony can't probably do better.

[dwqrf]

il y a 2 minutes, Agall a dit :

Ah yes, priming enemies with status damage to already dead enemies. You're not tickling enemies, even level cap ones with Hate Incarnon, especially if you're running a heavy attack setup. These sorts of setups where this Hate augment would benefit are few and niche, nothing Harmony can't probably do better.

Why do you keep talking about Hate's damage ? This mod seems to allows to get %status damage on everything, primary, secondary, companions, spells, others players ; and this onto any enemies, including bosses, even on status-limited targets. Not only it can allows you to remove elementalist mods from other part of your gear, but it can also improve any dots capability when using both. Sure, Dante's Paragrimms does better, but you don't always have Dante with you (hu... quite often, okay).

It seems you can even place DoTs from any source on a target and then hit with Hate to improve the subsequent damage.

Is it terrible ? Hell no.

[Traumtulpe]

6 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

it can improve the status damage for the others weapons

Look, I'm ignoring you for a reason. Because you are physically incapable of saying anything I would find even mildly interesting if I waited for 100 years.

48 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

3) Hit enemies with the Hate to increase the damage of Heat procs from other weapons

I dunno if you've ever been to levelcap, but enemies typically either die from a single heavy attack of the Hate, or have damage attenuation and status caps. In the first case the enemy is dead, so you can't increase anything, in the second case you can't increase anything because DE said no.

Either way, increasing the damage from other sources via hitting an enemy in melee is what I would call a "desperate tactic". How many people have you seen using Magus Accelerant? The answer is literally zero, and it does basically the same thing but better!

[dwqrf]

à l’instant, Traumtulpe a dit :

Look, I'm ignoring you for a reason. Because you are physically incapable of saying anything I would find even mildly interesting if I waited for 100 years.

Yeah, I figured by now you are quite dense and can't understand logic and reason. Just a hater.

[Agall]

1 minute ago, dwqrf said:

Why do you keep talking about Hate's damage ?

Because it generally 1 shots things if you're using it properly. The other way to use it (which is how I use it) being an electric only [Melee Influence] setup which doesn't apply heat damage since the heat proc from the projectiles apply electric and/or radiation. That puts it in a scenario where you have to use it in a very niche way to make use of this mod, or build around it.

Let alone the simple reality that enemies don't live long enough to make use of something like this. You could maybe use it with like Furis Incarnon, apply a ton of heat procs, then smack them once with Hate and this augment to buff the heat proc, but that heat proc is likely going to 1 shot any enemy you're doing this to anyways.

1 minute ago, Traumtulpe said:

I dunno if you've ever been to levelcap, but enemies typically either die from a single heavy attack of the Hate

^^

The only utility I could see with this is if I tossed it onto my electric only [Melee Influence] setup instead of [Blood Rush] as a support primer. I think it'll still run into the problem of being redundant or simply not performing better than [Melee Elementalist] since that's non-conditional.

 

Either way, if DE wants people to actually use this mod outside of Youtubers making clickbait youtube videos, it's going to need to be fully reworked. I think the same idea can apply if they just give it +120% status damage and +120% heat damage instead. Even if they just gave this same mod +heat damage%, it would at least be serviceable. 

[dwqrf]

il y a 1 minute, Agall a dit :

he other way to use it (which is how I use it) being an electric only [Melee Influence] setup which doesn't apply heat damage since the heat proc from the projectiles apply electric and/or radiation. That puts it in a scenario where you have to use it in a very niche way to make use of this mod, or build around it.

Let alone the simple reality that enemies don't live long enough to make use of something like this. You could maybe use it with like Furis Incarnon, apply a ton of heat procs, then smack them once with Hate and this augment to buff the heat proc, but that heat proc is likely going to 1 shot any enemy you're doing this to anyways.

Are you as dense as op ?
 

il y a 35 minutes, dwqrf a dit :

4) Inflict Heat status damage from any source -> Hit with Hate -> Improve every status damage from all sources on target. Not just Heat as you claim with 3). 🤷‍♂️

 

[Agall]

Just now, dwqrf said:

Are you as dense as op ?

Buddy, we can all read and see that its not the same as +status damage%. You're assuming we don't understand how this mod works and seemingly disagreeing on that premise entirely. We're discussing its actual utility and practical application, not how the mod itself functions.

Feel free to reread basically all of my posts where I allude to its actual functionality.

Also feel free to submit your own theorycraft on how this mod can be used effectively that let's it out perform other mods.

6 minutes ago, Agall said:

The only utility I could see with this is if I tossed it onto my electric only [Melee Influence] setup instead of [Blood Rush] as a support primer.

Here's mine.

[dwqrf]

il y a 1 minute, Agall a dit :

Buddy, we can all read and see that its not the same as +status damage%. You're assuming we don't understand how this mod works and seemingly disagreeing on that premise entirely. We're discussing its actual utility and practical application, not how the mod itself functions.

Do you know any other mods in the game that improve vulnerability to status damage for other sources ?

[y.iiijii]

2 hours ago, Agall said:

Also feel free to submit your own theorycraft on how this mod can be used effectively that let's it out perform other mods.

Here's my build idea:

Burning Hate: Attacking burning enemies increases vulnerability to status damage by 120% which includes (and I'm assuming cause i don't have it yet): The forced slash proc from Heavy attacks.

Melee Elementalist: Increases slash (and heat) proc damage. Also increases heavy wind-up speed.

Damage / Crit mods: Sacrificial Pressure and Steel, Amalgam organ shatter (heavy wind-up speed), Blood rush, Gladiator might, Killing Blow / Gladiator Vice.

Tennokai mod: Preferably Dreamer's wrath. Helps to build up combo for Blood rush while heavying through crowds.

Melee Animosity: might as well be another combo count for more damage.

Heat primer: Hate Incarnon has innate pure heat damage projectiles so no need for heat mods. You can prime heat on-demand with another weapon though.

Sure it's OVERKILL and you can already delete most ads with the damage alone, but imagine the SLASH DAMAGE on acolytes, demolishers, and like other tanky mobs like on EDD.

 

Edited September 4 by y.iiijii

[Agall]

1 hour ago, dwqrf said:

Do you know any other mods in the game that improve vulnerability to status damage for other sources ?

Dante is the only thing that comes into mind, the flying around owl thing from one of his final verses. The advantage there is that its proactive and non conditional, so dramatically more likely to be effective on target before they die. Otherwise, the Elementalist mod's lack of condition are more than sufficient for most builds to kill something before the first second or on the first status proc.

The other variable to consider, where this would be most beneficial is on status capped enemies. In my experience, most of your damage on those status capped enemies isn't from status procs. Things like Acolytes, bosses, Necramechs; most the time its the raw damage on them that's doing the most because of their status capped nature. Hate Incarnon also has no problem 1 shotting a lot of these enemies, so taking up a mod slot for a conditional bonus is just redundant and you'd be better off with [Melee Elementalist] (yeah we're all aware its a group wide buff, what @Traumtulpe likely agree on is the futility of this given the normal time to kill and conditional requirement).

Some other niche scenarios like I mentioned with a [Melee Influence] setup involve someone like Citrine, whether using it herself or as a support. Enemies would be primed with heat and not die instantly, and assuming [Melee Influence] can trigger this augment, that would more than double the damage from all of the status effects from Citrine's abilities. That could be as dumb as using Blood Altar subsume and spamming it with Hate too, but that's just a theory since I've never used Blood Altar but know generally how it works (I think you can proc influence off of blood altar onto enemies, but I'm not 100% sure). 

Quote

PAGEFLIGHT: A Dark Verse followed by a Light Verse summons Paragrimms that swoop at enemies, making them vulnerable to Status Chance and Status Damage, as well as drawing enemy attacks away from allies.

The other problem with this mod is that if it came out before Dante and Jade Shadow's Elementalist mod set, it would've been huge. The +90% status damage almost doubles the status damage on a target, but I'm not sure adding another +120% status damage on top of +90% would be worth it, given how additive modifiers scale like this. I believe that would come out to like 2.5x versus 1.9x, which isn't worth a whole mod slot. That's not considering the fact that most of the builds in question don't need +status damage% at all to 1 shot with their first proc.

Now, where this would be REALLY REALLY REALLY good and make me use it as best I can is if Radial Javelin did usable damage. That would involve priming them with heat in some way and using my Hate Incarnon's Melee Influence electric only build, so probably rebuilding my Verglas as a heat+viral setup. That would then allow influence to proc this augment, assuming it's still coded properly (melee influence is still coded as melee damage in some capacities, but not all. Its questionable whether or not this augment will be triggered from it). Radial Javelin's slash proc only hit in the few thousands, so +120% status damage with viral could put it almost at 100k even now.

 

I will be getting this mod and testing it thoroughly, I'm not entirely writing it off until then, but I personally would've rather had it just mimic the Dread's augment. I was really hoping for some better utility, this augment being potentially great, but dramatically limited by the heat condition. Mostly because of [Melee Influence] arcane and how well that performs right now on Hate until about level 500 SP enemies. Past that with a more slash/viral/heat focused build, you're 1 shotting everything past level cap like @Traumtulpe has mentioned several times.

My current entire optimistic outlook on this augment is based on the assumption that Melee Influence can proc it. I would say its certain that any Heat status effect will proc it with how it works on most other conditional bonuses, so no requirement to have heat damage inherently on Hate. If [Melee Influence] can't proc its effect, I'll be really grasping at straws to make this useful.

[dwqrf]

il y a 4 minutes, Agall a dit :

Hate Incarnon

This mod isn't exclusive to the Incarnon's adapted Hate, so you know ; any players before or in early SP can actually make a good use of it. Even versus status capped enemies ; where status damage is better than status chances.

Don't expect everyone to have a Hate incarnon fully modded with a fully maxed Arcane Influence. That's not the playerbase. Maybe most active users of the forums are in this categories, but not everyone.

[Agall]

Just now, y.iiijii said:

Here's my build idea:

Burning Hate: Attacking burning enemies increases vulnerability to status damage by 120% which includes (and I'm assuming cause i don't have it yet): The forced slash proc from Heavy attacks.

Melee Elementalist: Increases slash (and heat) proc damage. Also increases heavy wind-up speed.

Damage / Crit mods: Sacrificial Pressure and Steel, Amalgam organ shatter (heavy wind-up speed), Blood rush, Gladiator might, Killing Blow / Gladiator Vice.

Tennokai mod: Preferably Dreamer's wrath. Helps to build up combo for Blood rush while heavying through crowds.

Melee Animosity: might as well be another combo count for more damage.

Heat primer: Hate Incarnon has innate pure heat damage projectiles so no need for heat mods. You can prime heat on-demand with another weapon though.

Sure it's OVERKILL and you can already delete most ads with the damage alone, but imagine the SLASH DAMAGE on acolytes, demolishers, and like other tanky mobs.

 

Melee Affliction, ignore Blood Rush and add IC/-combo duration. Gladiator Vice swap for [Primed Reach], [Gladiator Might] flexes for a riven, ideally CC/DMG or CC/heavy if using [Melee Crescendo]. You're also spending time neutral attacking each enemy if its your only source of heat, waiting for the explosion, and hoping it actually procs a heat status effect which isn't guaranteed in my experience. In my electric influence build, the projectiles mostly proc electric and sometimes radiation when it does proc the heat status, which seems separate to its normal status chance.

As you point out, this is all overkill, since it doesn't take much to get Hate Incarnon to 1 shot with heavy attacks with double digit million slash procs if it doesn't 1 shot, even at level cap. Its also not far from being unnecessary due to [Harmony], which has a better group buff with its +status duration% that isn't conditional on targets.

 

I would suspect DE's intention with this augment is to prime enemies with Dread Incarnon's innate heat proc and new augment, and stealth heavy attack to finish enemies. 

[dwqrf]

il y a 7 minutes, Agall a dit :

limited by the heat condition

Again : you don't need Heat on the Hate to make it procc. Just slot Viral+Heat on a sentinel weapon and that should works.

[Agall]

2 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

This mod isn't exclusive to the Incarnon's adapted Hate

Harmony is easier to get and better in this scenario. Harmony also doesn't seem to care for tau violet CD shards, high [Furious Javelin] multiplicative damage, and Wrathful Advance, since it hits the same on my Excalibur build as it does on any other Warframe without those melee enhancements. 

1 minute ago, dwqrf said:

Again : you don't need Heat on the Hate to make it procc. Just slot Viral+Heat on a sentinel weapon and that should works.

If you've read any of my other posts, you'll see I suggest this multiple times including basing this mod's entire functionality off of other Warframes like Citrine (spoilers, I don't play Citrine, so if I'm suggesting anything other than Excalibur, its likely me suggesting a teammate).

 

I really don't understand what we're even arguing about here. I'm arguing and I believe @Traumtulpe as well that this mod's bonuses are redundant if not entirely futile with the way Hate (and Incarnon) are actually used. There might be some niche usages of it, but nothing game changing like we come to expect with weapon augments, a lot of that being the conditional damage restriction.

I think DE should either eliminate the Heat requirement and change it to any status, or give it a decent amount of innate heat elemental damage. That would allow newer players without incarnon to easily proc its effect and it would be worth a mod slot, as long as the +heat% is higher than 90% (anywhere from 120%-165% in my opinion).

The other entirely unique suggestion that would require more work is to give it an additional status effect independent of its status chance that procs heat and therefore this effect, similar to the Incarnon's form, but independent of modding. Maybe a short range wave like Exalted Blade that applies heat independently that allows it to innately proc this +status damage%. Now that sounds like an actual weapon augment to me.

In its current state, it appears to be simply too restrictive for a questionably useful effective in the current meta with very limited niche theoretical use-cases.

[RobWasHere]

1) Mod your Verglas for Magnetic+Heat
2) Install Contagious Bond
3) ???
4) Profit (from heavy attacks, but hey)

[y.iiijii]

1 hour ago, Agall said:

Melee Affliction, ignore Blood Rush and add IC/-combo duration. Gladiator Vice swap for [Primed Reach], [Gladiator Might] flexes for a riven, ideally CC/DMG or CC/heavy if using [Melee Crescendo]. You're also spending time neutral attacking each enemy if its your only source of heat, waiting for the explosion, and hoping it actually procs a heat status effect which isn't guaranteed in my experience.

I would suspect DE's intention with this augment is to prime enemies with Dread Incarnon's innate heat proc and new augment, and stealth heavy attack to finish enemies. 

Neutral attacking was the intention because of tennokai and animosity, but now that i think about it heavy spam build could actually work better with this

Despair incarnon can prime better cause of easy incarnon and use, Corrupt charge and Stalker's Legacy gives +60 innate combo for 4x heavy dmg, leaves just enough health for the slash to kill ads.

Not using tennokai means not having to worry about the combo, meaning you can focus more on building up Dread's incarnon, Unseen Dread for constant invis or Stalkers Resentment and Split Flights for boss damage.

ill have to see how it works in game

 

Edited September 4 by y.iiijii

[Redrigoth]

Agree, this mod is junk and will eat dust. Augments should be for weapons that need a little boost in uniqueness and performance

This mod needs to be changed so it is for Despair instead, and it should give it extra stats on top of this effect like +100% flat status chance after mods

[Numerounius]

On point 1,

Min Maxing certain damage aspects is a thing that can be done.

My first thought with this mod is point 1 with Warframe abilities like Nezha's Divine retribution or some other AOE ability is doing like dark verse with using a double tap from Hate with the first proccing heat then the second proccing this mod. But this mod is asking me to go around slapping every enemy to get its effect which is highly impractical.

 

So, in my eyes the real problem with this mod is that this is on a melee weapon rather than a secondary weapon where it can act as a utility primer which is what secondaries are known for, not melee weapons.

 

The damage value, I don't see a reason why it can be upped to 140% if people really think that 120% is too weak?

Also, with the way it reads sounds like you can't use pusedo exalteds to abuse this. Thank god, hopefully any other interactions with them are fixed soon.

Edited September 5 by Numerounius

[quxier]

4 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

3) Hit enemies with the Hate to increase the damage of Heat procs from other weapons.

Does it only increase heat damage or other status damage (blast, gas etc)? What is time or is it infinite?

I can see it with long or infinite duration and applying to ALL status damage to be useful at least. Mark enemies with heat & attack with other weapons (e.g. blast) with 2.2x damage (for status).