New augment mod "Burning Hate" is terrible.

[dwqrf]

il y a 52 minutes, Agall a dit :

I really don't understand what we're even arguing about here. I'm arguing and I believe @Traumtulpe as well that this mod's bonuses are redundant if not entirely futile with the way Hate (and Incarnon) are actually used. There might be some niche usages of it, but nothing game changing like we come to expect with weapon augments, a lot of that being the conditional damage restriction.

I think DE should either eliminate the Heat requirement and change it to any status, or give it a decent amount of innate heat elemental damage. That would allow newer players without incarnon to easily proc its effect and it would be worth a mod slot, as long as the +heat% is higher than 90% (anywhere from 120%-165% in my opinion).

And that's what I argue about : maybe not everybody play every items for the same reasons :

Let's think about a player in early/mid game with a Ignis and this weapon, and only this mod. Maybe he likes shooting more than swinging around and spray fire everywhere he goes. Enemies burns and dies, except this tanky Nox, a bit too strong for him yet ; He slaps him once with his Hate and then he burns twice faster. It's an instant +%status damage debuff on command.

Conceptually, playing Hate/Incarnon this way, at any level, allows you to double/remove elementalist mods from your main and secondary weapons for shooty players and give them the ability to increase their status damage on the targets that's needed, when it's needed.

And if Heat status is the only context needed to prime them for more status damage with a swing of Hate, it's not ridiculous to assume that most important target will be primed with heat from so many possible sources, including the mods you play on both primary/secondary, and Verglas+Contagious, or spells ; from you or anyone in the squad ; on target that matters ; and it will buff all the status damage from all sources.

It's not terrible.

It has this touch of : "We want to promote %status damage and dynamic gameplay by playing all your gear ; we give you this new tool to play around" ; and it not relevant to the way you play the Hate, but it can be made for something esle. And I don't think it's that niche.

[Traumtulpe]

I don't think the point has come across; Imagine an enemy that is so "tough to kill" (if you use bad weapons, I guess), that you would be willing to jump through some hoops to help this procedure along.

Say, an Elite Deep Archimedian Leech Eximus Necramech.

Will the augment help you kill that Necramech faster? The answer is no. Why is simple: Necramechs are status capped *and* have damage attenuation. Damage from status effects is, simply speaking, null and void, or purely cosmetical if you will.

You can kill those with the Hate quite effectively, using a pure crit build spamming heavy attacks through Tennokai. Putting the augment on your Hate will only make things worse.

Now, what about an enemy that *isn't* status capped and damage attenuated? Well in that case jumping through hoops is just a complete waste of time. There is *no* such enemy that you can't kill in 2 seconds flat by proccing it up with Secondary encumber and hitting it with a DPS weapon. And that's already putting some real effort into it, you might just as well hold any old beam weapon modded for heat into it's general direction and it will just melt with 400 procs on it.

[dwqrf]

Let people enjoy things.

[Drachnyn]

Obviously I havent tried it yet but to me the idea seems to be to swap to melee with a melee input, have the projectile cause a heat proc on the enemy and then hit them with a heavy attack before swapping to other weapons again. For pure 2x heavy spam like I do this doesnt seem very useful, melee elementalist is probably better there.

[Traumtulpe]

5 minutes ago, Drachnyn said:

Obviously I havent tried it yet but to me the idea seems to be to swap to melee with a melee input, have the projectile cause a heat proc on the enemy and then hit them with a heavy attack before swapping to other weapons again. For pure 2x heavy spam like I do this doesnt seem very useful, melee elementalist is probably better there.

Putting the reasonableness of such play aside, in that case it is an (arguably worse) sidegrade to Melee Elementalist.

That's not what an augment mod is supposed to do, the same thing a normal mod does but slightly worse.

Edited September 4 by Traumtulpe

[quxier]

17 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

That's not what an augment mod is supposed to do, the same thing a normal mod does but slightly worse.

Augments are whatever they want. At least it's not case of rivens when you can have almost exact stats but 2x more drain... that's HORRIBLE.

[Agall]

1 hour ago, y.iiijii said:

Despair incarnon can prime better cause of easy incarnon and use, Corrupt charge and Stalker's Legacy gives +60 innate combo for 4x heavy dmg, leaves just enough health for the slash to kill ads.

I've never found priming with primary/secondary to be worth the time, since instead of priming you can just hit them twice. That's been my general experience as a melee only player for almost 11 years.

 

1 hour ago, dwqrf said:

And that's what I argue about : maybe not everybody play every items for the same reasons :

Let's think about a player in early/mid game with a Ignis and this weapon, and only this mod. Maybe he likes shooting more than swinging around and spray fire everywhere he goes. Enemies burns and dies, except this tanky Nox, a bit too strong for him yet ; He slaps him once with his Hate and then he burns twice faster. It's an instant +%status damage debuff on command.

Conceptually, playing Hate/Incarnon this way, at any level, allows you to double/remove elementalist mods from your main and secondary weapons for shooty players and give them the ability to increase their status damage on the targets that's needed, when it's needed.

And if Heat status is the only context needed to prime them for more status damage with a swing of Hate, it's not ridiculous to assume that most important target will be primed with heat from so many possible sources, including the mods you play on both primary/secondary, and Verglas+Contagious, or spells ; from you or anyone in the squad ; on target that matters ; and it will buff all the status damage from all sources.

It's not terrible.

Until we get it to test, you're simply overvaluing its gimmick. This isn't an objective assertion, but if you compare it to the recent of the Nightwave augments, its as close to 'terrible' as you could likely get. I'd argue in comparison to the Dread augment, its objectively terrible. I feel like you're just trolling at this point than genuinely believing this augment is anything short of trivial.

You're creating a ridiculous set of use-cases that will impact virtually no one. I've at least come up with some that might work, assuming this effect can proc off of [Melee Influence]. Mods aren't designed around mod-less early game players with starter gear. Its unlikely for a player with this low of gear to have Hate in the first place (unless they buy it from the market, got very lucky, or spammed Stalker sigils). That's not even considering the time investment required to reach rank 15 in a Nightwave.

Another use-case is for pseudo-exalted abilities, but yet, I find this one even difficult to justify. Considering I use Hate as a dual purpose melee weapon and Slash Dash stat stick sometimes (not nearly as good as Dual Ichor, but oh well), this mod can be useful if I intentionally build around it. Problem is, I'm sacrificing double slash procs for slash+heat+120% status damage, which might not be worth it. That would still likely require meleeing the enemy to proc the effect, since I doubt it'll proc off a pseudo-exalted. I could instead just 1 shot everything with Dual Ichor while also getting absurd AoE and almost 1M per tick clouds from the incarnon.

That still doesn't solve the fundamental problem with this mod, its more steps for longer time to kill. If it wasn't a conditional bonus, it would be a whole other story. In its current setup, you're either reliant on other players, abilities, sentinel weapon targeting the right thing, priming (which increases TTK), or a second hit on the target assuming the first hit procs heat.

They could've done a lot better than this, and I've laid out several ways they could've done it. Whether that's giving it an additional effect that procs heat and therefore this effect or making it an aura, or simply not having it conditional on one status type. 

It simply pales in comparison to the last several augments we've gotten. Of course it happens to be a weapon I'm very familiar with and also one of the first melee augments we've gotten from Nightwave (correct me if this isn't true).

[(PSN)Pablogamer585]

I understand the mod differently, it is redundantly overkill performance wise, which makes it bad.

Adds yet another layer of damage multiplier to the weapon that didn't need it to begin with, as Traum says, the Hate is already good enough, moreover after the unnecessary addition of its genesis, and it wasn't some form of subpar or unpopular product no one picked. Speaking of the devil, the augment is far too suited for the Genesis itself rather than the Hate since the blades this one launches deal heat damage on an AoE, so just swinging after transforming the weapon is enough to make the buff be active all the time.

At the end what you get is x1'2 final damage multiplier to your statuses, which can be doubled by elementalist, and since the weapon force procs slash and knockdown on heavies, 6 more procs with Afflictions, for a grand total of 7 slash procs that deal 90% more damage and if the enemy was affected by heat, 120% of that too, that basically means 1 heavy attack on a burning enemy would be the equivalent of 29 heavy attacks. And if it had viral, 125 attacks in one.

Not that before that we already dealt millions from a single slash proc. Guess it's death by a hundred+ cuts.

Edited September 4 by (PSN)Pablogamer585
(With Melee Afflictions)

[Agall]

4 minutes ago, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:

so just swinging after transforming the weapon is enough to make the buff be active all the time.

Not reliably and at a relatively slow speed without attack speed mods. It doesn't have 100% chance to proc heat and I don't think the chance scales with [Weeping Wounds] since it won't always proc heat. Its also independent of mods since it would otherwise only proc radiation in my build, but it procs electric and radiation instead.

I also doubt it can proc this effect off of its own heat proc, as in if you melee once with heat modded proccing heat and slash, if that single attack counts. If it can proc this effect off existing status, that's a whole other story.

We'll need to get it to properly test it. Its quite possible this effect can proc off preexisting status effect, since its relatively non-specific with what kind of damage from Hate can trigger this effect (with a heat status effect on them obviously).

[Traumtulpe]

14 minutes ago, Agall said:

Its also independent of mods since it would otherwise only proc radiation in my build, but it procs electric and radiation instead.

The Hate has a regular melee hit (obviously), with your modded elements and IPS. In Incarnon mode it then has a projectile that works identically (except it's bugged and some mods don't apply to it, but this doesn't include elementals), and the projectile has an small explosion that deals Heat damage (and combines with Electric to Radiation, also same bug as the projectile).

Of note is that the Heat damage is an "innate" element, meaning it comes last in the mod order. If there are multiple innate elements (this only applies to very few weapons naturally, but elemental buffs count as innate too) they go at the end in the order Heat - Cold - Electricity - Toxin.

Due to this, in Incarnon mode and using the augment Shock Trooper, Hate can cause Corrosive (melee and projectile) as well as Gas and Electric damage (explosion).

Basically it's complicated. Weeping Wounds definitely applies to everything though, otherwise I'd get no procs due to a negative status chance riven.

[dwqrf]

il y a 43 minutes, Agall a dit :

I've never found priming with primary/secondary to be worth the time, since instead of priming you can just hit them twice. That's been my general experience as a melee only player for almost 11 years.

 

Until we get it to test, you're simply overvaluing its gimmick. This isn't an objective assertion, but if you compare it to the recent of the Nightwave augments, its as close to 'terrible' as you could likely get. I'd argue in comparison to the Dread augment, its objectively terrible. I feel like you're just trolling at this point than genuinely believing this augment is anything short of trivial.

You're creating a ridiculous set of use-cases that will impact virtually no one. I've at least come up with some that might work, assuming this effect can proc off of [Melee Influence]. Mods aren't designed around mod-less early game players with starter gear. Its unlikely for a player with this low of gear to have Hate in the first place (unless they buy it from the market, got very lucky, or spammed Stalker sigils). That's not even considering the time investment required to reach rank 15 in a Nightwave.

Another use-case is for pseudo-exalted abilities, but yet, I find this one even difficult to justify. Considering I use Hate as a dual purpose melee weapon and Slash Dash stat stick sometimes (not nearly as good as Dual Ichor, but oh well), this mod can be useful if I intentionally build around it. Problem is, I'm sacrificing double slash procs for slash+heat+120% status damage, which might not be worth it. That would still likely require meleeing the enemy to proc the effect, since I doubt it'll proc off a pseudo-exalted. I could instead just 1 shot everything with Dual Ichor while also getting absurd AoE and almost 1M per tick clouds from the incarnon.

That still doesn't solve the fundamental problem with this mod, its more steps for longer time to kill. If it wasn't a conditional bonus, it would be a whole other story. In its current setup, you're either reliant on other players, abilities, sentinel weapon targeting the right thing, priming (which increases TTK), or a second hit on the target assuming the first hit procs heat.

They could've done a lot better than this, and I've laid out several ways they could've done it. Whether that's giving it an additional effect that procs heat and therefore this effect or making it an aura, or simply not having it conditional on one status type. 

It simply pales in comparison to the last several augments we've gotten. Of course it happens to be a weapon I'm very familiar with and also one of the first melee augments we've gotten from Nightwave (correct me if this isn't true).

Don't you understand that beyond %weapon status damage it's also the first mod in the game that gives +%spell status damage ; as it's a debuff affecting all sources ; and only the second iteration of +%general status damages after Dante's paragrims.

Edited September 4 by dwqrf

[Traumtulpe]

Well I don't think anyone is taking those particular posts serious anymore, but you are of course free to shoot every single regular enemy with a Viral/Heat primer, then walk up to them and smack them with the Hate (and this augment), and then back off and cast Bladestorm on that enemy.

Just to make sure that Butcher stays dead, you know. Have fun with your 10 KPM.

[Agall]

12 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

Don't you understand that beyond %weapon status damage it's also the first mod in the game that gives +%spell status damage ; as it's a debuff affecting all sources ; and only the second iteration of +%general status damages after Dante's paragrims.

Which is nice and all if they're alive to make it useful by the 1st hit let alone a follow up.

 

15 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

Due to this, in Incarnon mode and using the augment Shock Trooper, Hate can cause Corrosive (melee and projectile) as well as Gas and Electric damage (explosion).

I haven't experimented with the projectiles much outside of my dual purpose melee/stat stick setup. Its almost the same setup as what's on my skana, dual ichor, hate, mk1-bo, so its controlled in some way to test various evo IV bonuses. Hate's evo II is one of the few that buffs [Surging Dash], which is likely unintentional, giving a hilarious 98 combo per hit with an ability str/range reactant crack bonus (doesn't work on others like Furax). Its +20% SC is what's important for this, since +CC% doesn't scale well with I'm already using Wrathful advance at +303%. That the niche I operate in for this particular weapon, and I'll likely play with this augment when it comes out to test its effects. That'll likely be a heat or viral setup.

Where this might be useful is on Warframes with innate heat procs, where you'll passively proc heat prior to hitting the target. That would then allow [Arcane Afflictions] to be quite powerful, especially if you've got high enough SC and modded for viral. Something like Elemental Ward on Inaros for its heat+health bonus.
 

At this point though, I'm grasping at straws 😄. The optimist in me hopes it'll be usable, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that its likely bad.

[dwqrf]

il y a 2 minutes, Traumtulpe a dit :

Well I don't think anyone is taking those particular posts serious anymore, but you are of course free to shoot every single regular enemy with a Viral/Heat primer, then walk up to them and smack them with the Hate (and this augment), and then back off and cast Bladestorm on that enemy.

Just to make sure that Butcher stays dead, you know. Have fun with your 10 KPM.

Yes, I'll will, thank you very much, it will be glorious.

Have fun with your meta.

[dwqrf]

il y a 2 minutes, Agall a dit :

Where this might be useful is on Warframes with innate heat procs, where you'll passively proc heat prior to hitting the target. That would then allow [Arcane Afflictions] to be quite powerful, especially if you've got high enough SC and modded for viral. Something like Elemental Ward on Inaros for its heat+health bonus.

 

At this point though, I'm grasping at straws 😄. The optimist in me hopes it'll be usable, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that its likely bad.

The warframe doesn't need to be a Heat status spell caster. All spell status.

[Traumtulpe]

I strongly doubt that hitting an enemy with Slash Dash will be able to proc the augment, since that is not "damage originating from the Hate". And hitting enemies with the actual Hate is obviously not a practical option.

[dwqrf]

Reading the mod conditions and effect :

Condition 1) : Inflict the effect Heat status on target from any source.

Condition 2) : Hit target with Hate weapon.

Effect : the enemy is afflicted with a debuff increasing all status damage from all sources.

 

That's how I read it.

Edited September 4 by dwqrf

[Agall]

3 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

I strongly doubt that hitting an enemy with Slash Dash will be able to proc the augment, since that is not "damage originating from the Hate". And hitting enemies with the actual Hate is obviously not a practical option.

What I suspect, since Slash Dash isn't even coded as a melee attack unless you have Exalted Blade drawn for things like [Arcane Fury], [Arcane Reaper], [Primary Dexterity], etc.

Crescendo, heat/viral innate, WW, melee spam might be viable. I believe I've seen the projectiles proc slash. Where the projectiles really shine is with [Furious Javelin], but still, they don't hit very hard. Its all SP viable, but I concern myself mostly with SP omnia VC level cap at this point. Its going to be hard to beat Dual Ichor with my sweaty min-maxed setup still. Couple days ago, I tried my Hate Incarnon electric build in it and it struggled. The AoE is great, but just not great enough. Might just be a weapon that I can't use influence with.

Reminds me to try viral/electric with it, something that prevents this augment from even being a possibility in terms of mod slots.

[dwqrf]

il y a 7 minutes, Agall a dit :

What I suspect, since Slash Dash isn't even coded as a melee attack unless you have Exalted Blade drawn for things like [Arcane Fury], [Arcane Reaper], [Primary Dexterity], etc.

Crescendo, heat/viral innate, WW, melee spam might be viable. I believe I've seen the projectiles proc slash. Where the projectiles really shine is with [Furious Javelin], but still, they don't hit very hard. Its all SP viable, but I concern myself mostly with SP omnia VC level cap at this point. Its going to be hard to beat Dual Ichor with my sweaty min-maxed setup still. Couple days ago, I tried my Hate Incarnon electric build in it and it struggled. The AoE is great, but just not great enough. Might just be a weapon that I can't use influence with.

Reminds me to try viral/electric with it, something that prevents this augment from even being a possibility in terms of mod slots.

But it's for people that DON'T play Hate, so they can use it as a stat-stick, to improve ALL status damage, from weapons to spells, allies included, with only the condition to hit once the enemy affected by at least one Heat status.

[ChaoticOrderly]

I'm not a big number person, just enough to kill works for me and the Hate has literally never had a problem killing so I cant see a reason to ever use this augment esp since it limits you to heat which limits hate modding. Might try it with a heat Diriga but I would honestly go for more attack speed.

[dwqrf]

il y a 12 minutes, ChaoticOrderly a dit :

I cant see a reason to ever use this augment esp since it limits you to heat which limits hate modding.

And what about buffing all the existing status in the whole game, from all weapons and spells, for everyone in the party, without even modding Heat on it ?

[MrDugan]

Hate Incarnon fires exploding blades, where 50% of the damage of the exploding blade is heat, and it has the same status chance as the weapon.  You have an automatic source of heat, and the augment would allow the innate heat from that attack to increase the status damage of both the heat itself and any other status effects you apply to them, whether that be slash from the Hate, or status from another source.  Without having access to it yet, I can't tell exactly how good that is, but it definitely doesn't sound bad.

The main issue honestly, is that if you have the Hate built properly and have the Incarnon installed, nothing will be left alive long enough for this mod to actually affect anything.  The other issue is that if you have even just a decent riven, much less a perfectly rolled one, there is exactly zero space for this mod.  There's just literally nothing that I would want to take off to slot this, especially when everything already dies fast enough for the extra status damage to not matter.  Without the riven, I feel like this mod would be a solid addition to a build.

I would also like to offer for consideration, the fact that plenty of players have hate, don't have a riven, and cannot even access the incarnon yet.  This augment could absolutely be viable in an earlier game build, and since it's available via NW, anyone has access to it.

Edited September 4 by MrDugan

[dwqrf]

il y a 26 minutes, MrDugan a dit :

Hate Incarnon fires exploding blades, where 50% of the damage of the exploding blade is heat, and it has the same status chance as the weapon. You have an automatic source of heat

I don't read you have to procc Heat with Hate/Incarnon, or have Heat modded on the weapon.

Edited September 4 by dwqrf

[RyllusPurple]

make them both work on jades weapons too!

[Traumtulpe]

3 hours ago, MrDugan said:

the augment would allow the innate heat from that attack to increase the status damage of both the heat itself and any other status effects you apply to them, whether that be slash from the Hate, or status from another source.  Without having access to it yet, I can't tell exactly how good that is

Put this on your Hate if you have a free mod slot. It's "only" 90% instead of 120, but it's always active, you get extra heavy attack speed (better than an extra 30% IMO), and you can still use Melee Exposure / Influence.

Using the default Heat damage to trigger the augment will always be bad, even if you were to equip the augment you'd use a primer for the Heat.