De, It's Time To Stop Relying On Rng Instead Of Game Design

[General_Krull]

The problem I see is that instead of playing the game for the sake of having fun, people play it to get all the cool loot. If your main goal in the game is just to get all the latest weapons, then you are missing the point of the game. Sure, you can go for hoarding every single item, which is not a bad thing to do, but when you are asking the developers to change an entire mechanic because you can't achieve that, then the one at fault is you, and not the game.

 

If you see that RNG is truly broken, then ask for it to fix it instead of just replacing it.

There is nothing else to do in this game but get items. Everything is same only look different. There is no other content that grind and farm.

[-CM-Aeon]

I think any who that doesnt like the game can simply uninstall it and never ever play it again. That's just my opinion as some one who has made 11 consecutive T2 Caps and got 10 Paris Strings consecutively along with a Orthos Handle to finish things.

[Xrylene]

I think any who that doesnt like the game can simply uninstall it and never ever play it again. That's just my opinion as some one who has made 11 consecutive T2 Caps and got 10 Paris Strings consecutively along with a Orthos Handle to finish things.

 

You're free to keep playing the game or uninstall as you wish, but your choice to not try to improve the game is your own, not mine. I'm invested in making this game better, as are others, and uninstalling wouldn't be the least bit helpful.

[Blatantfool]

 I'm just gonna put this out there, though I'm sure some other guy has said it better then I have at some point on these forums.

 

 

 No matter what you think about the drop system, whether you love it to pieces (Somehow) or hate it through and through, RNG is a perfectly normal thing in Games. In fact, I'd say the grand majority of the time you're experiencing something with a good bit of RNG working in its background you're not even thinking about it.

 

 You can't expect to say "Stop relying on RNG instead of Game design." like this threads title. It doesn't work that way. This game will be heavy on RNG no matter what. The difference is whether or not DE manages to hit the sweet spot where the RNG is no longer grating. That can be hard to do, especially when the pool of items is going to keep right on growing straight into the forseeable future. This is why DE has never been able to get it right every time.

 

 And do please note that sometimes it isn't a bad move they make, because there are occasions where they've managed to release something and it worked out just fine. It is just easy to forget the shreds of good with the Game's drops in the rough shape they are in.

 

 Nekros, for example, being the first Frame whose parts dropped in the simplified end of mission reward fashion, making him arguably the fairest Frame to farm Drop Rate wise for a short period until DE saw how much better that approach was and adopted it across all Boss related Warframes.

 

 

  And - if you are willing to excuse the mess that is Derelict Survival's reward table at the moment - you'll noticed DE finally just released a new Prime into the Derelict, instead of even further polluting the Void tables. They even moved a few key pieces of other Prime items over to act as a bit of a release valve on how bad the Void tables are looking. This was a good move. One they've been needing to make for a little while now.

 

 

 Anyway - I'm not arguing with anyone here. Not really. Just speaking my mind a bit.

 

 I'll freely admit - I'm not a fan of some of the drop rates people have to learn to cope with. I've seen so many instances of frustration as a result of a bad run and I understand the desire to "Just get the damned thing I'm farming for." Hell, before the Frame component drop change I did better then 100 runs to attempt to earn myself the Rhino Warframe and couldn't get what was supposed to be the most common component. 

 

 

And yeah, I remember that whole thing with Steve posting that thread about "Look at these Rorschach drawings our computer made saying the RNG isn't working like we thought but we fixed it though XOXOXO" but honestly that whole thing never made much sense to me. I'm not big on numbers or anything. I prefer to stick to how I feel about an issue instead of making guesses to attempt to understand the parts that elude me.

 

 So I'm not going to throw that in your face as if I think it proves anything because if seeing that didn't mean much to me then I'm not going to expect it to give anyone else clear answers either.

[General_Krull]

I think any who that doesnt like the game can simply uninstall it and never ever play it again. That's just my opinion as some one who has made 11 consecutive T2 Caps and got 10 Paris Strings consecutively along with a Orthos Handle to finish things.

Are you a saboteur? Why are you chasing away people trying to improve the game? Thing is if this thing doesn't change more and more people will leave, and Warframe will end up being one of those ghost town f2p games.

[Blatantfool]

I think any who that doesnt like the game can simply uninstall it and never ever play it again. That's just my opinion as some one who has made 11 consecutive T2 Caps and got 10 Paris Strings consecutively along with a Orthos Handle to finish things.

 

 This isn't how Beta communities work. Hell, this isn't even how a videogame community works. HELL, this isn't even how the real world works.

 

 There should never be a point where people start to expect the dissatisfied part of the community to just leave. Especially if that part of the community is being perfectly reasonable and honest. Plenty of people on these forums speaking out to give feedback about what bothers them most is perfectly valid and fairly reasonable. These people should be taken seriously. They want the game to be better and feel it can be done, otherwise they wouldn't come to give feedback.

 

 Saying something like that almost makes it sound as if those people couldn't be correct. That there is no way these things they are made about are actually problems. This is simply untrue. The only thing those guys need to do is start to band together better and get the ball rolling on discussion about these topics without the drama and frustration that permeates and ruins so many feedback threads.

[Xrylene]

Blatantfool, I speak as someone who has indeed experienced the RNG present in so many games. I grew up playing RPG video games, Dungeons and Dragons, board games, and later on Roguelikes. I'll explain the problem by stating what each of these types of games, which are all pretty random, have as far as content goes.

 

RPG video games(Final Fantasy and the like) rely on pulling the player into a story, and giving characters an identity with different abilities to keep you interested in the basic mechanics long enough to complete them. They don't rely on re-playability whatsoever, they instead tend to just pump out another game with a new story and new characters, so that even if the gameplay and RNG are largely the same, the real reason people come to play them is being focused on. RNG doesn't have a strong purpose here though, and some of the best RPGs(Chrono Trigger, Radiant Historia) do away with random encounters entirely, the main form of RNG present.

 

Dungeons and Dragons is similar, seeing as it's the precursor to all modern RPGs, but unlike a video game RPG has an evolving world based off of the combined whims of all players involved. The RNG in this case is used mostly to act as a factor outside of either the player or the dungeon master's control, to keep it feeling like a game and not just a story telling session by limiting the influence of any one player. People play D&D to story tell, game the system, or pretend to be something they are not.

 

Board games are in a similar boat to D&D, the RNG is there to "give everyone a chance" while keeping it incredibly simple to understand and play. Imagine Monopoly, for example, with players being able to move wherever they wanted on their turns, and how boring it would get when inevitably, players would only take whatever was the most optimal strategy and simply use that every time. While I don't think Monopoly or similar board games are inherently good games, they are often designed with RNG being a crutch to keep the game from getting too samey too fast.

 

And then there are Roguelikes, probably the best example of RNG done well, considering unlike the rest of those, they were designed explicitly with RNG in mind. The whole concept of a completely different experience every time, and an ever changing set of tools or rooms to strategize around is made with the idea of near infinite re-playability. What makes this different from DE's approach with Warframe is, we're experiencing almost the exact same content every time, and not because of the challenge of getting further, but because of the need for a few permanent upgrades, and once we get these, we have no reason to play the same game we've played hundreds of times anymore.

 

You may notice, that I did not list MMOs in my list of games with RNG I play, and there's a good reason for that. Warframe falls more into the MMO style of RNG, where it exists for two reasons, because it exists in every game before it (the "D&D did it so it's a staple of RPGs" argument), and because it acts as easy filler to replace actual content with. How is "kill ~100 Grineer on this ship 5 times" any different from "kill 50 dragons and bring me back their tails"? How is doing a dungeon in the hopes of getting a piece of gear any different from running a bunch of void missions to hopefully get some pieces of gear? Whether we talk Warfarm or MMOs, RNG based grinding is the majority of content, the only real difference is as someone mentioned earlier in the thread, at least MMOs have a story. Not saying a story would fix Warframe's woes, but right now it's managing to be worse than an MMO, and that's just a little bit sad.

[ZephyrPhantom]

 You can't expect to say "Stop relying on RNG instead of Game design." like this threads title. It doesn't work that way. This game will be heavy on RNG no matter what. The difference is whether or not DE manages to hit the sweet spot where the RNG is no longer grating. That can be hard to do, especially when the pool of items is going to keep right on growing straight into the forseeable future. This is why DE has never been able to get it right every time.

Just my 2 cents on this : Indeed, RNG hate is one thing. However, criticizing the execution of the RNG is another. To me, "Stop relying on RNG instead of Game Design" reads to me as "Don't use RNG as the only crutch for new content.", not "RNG sucks remove it plz". The posts here aren't just about how bad the droptables are, they're also about alternative ways to add new content such as WoW's addition of new worlds.

 

My thoughts in general :

 

Due to the fact that so much time is spent on new weapons, other content such as lore trickles in at a very slow rate (the closest thing I've seen to 'lore' is Excalibur Prime and Stalker's codex entries.) By releasing mainly weapons and frames and nothing else, DE is forced to push other gear into drop tables at such a fast pace to the point where the 'diluting' is uncomfortably notable.

 

Now, I respect the point that they're trying to move Prime Gear into OD's, but that IMHO also shows that DE just pushes gear into 'empty' drop areas because they don't seem to want to make new sources to drop them from. (Recent Examples being Volt and Trinity's displacement by Valkyr and Oberon -  instead of making something sensible that would make it simple for players to still get them at J3/Vay Hek levels, Volt is now a chance-based drop diluting reward tables and if you're a newer player wanting to be Trinity, good luck getting to Phobos anytime soon.) I don't even mind if it's just some extension of the galaxy or just a bunch of 'node-only' maps for the time being with recycled tilesets and remixed bosses, but it seems very clear to me that RNG and acquiring gear shouldn't be the only 'progression' that should be happening once you have a decent chunk of the solar system accesible. (At the very least, some more 1-paragraph codex entries shouldn't hurt.) Copying Stalker doesn't count either, since he and Zanuka are chance-based appearances anyway and thus additional RNG.

 

All of these RNG issues ultimately stretches out the grinding to the point where threads like these appear. I think if nothing else, there should be at least -some- kind of limit on how much the RNG influences your drop table, even if it's a simple alternative goal of "Play X Mission 100 times to get Rhino Helmet." Sidathe's 3rd post in the thread makes it clear why we shouldn't solely rely on this kind of "Play X for Y" goal, but combined with the RNG I can see it as making things at least somewhat more palatable while DE thinks of getting more varied content in the game. Story, new nodes/planets, whatever, just make it something we can progress into mission-map style instead of crafting a key and hoping the next run drops that blueprint we all need. There are plenty of solid fan ideas for frames, enemies, and bosses, and Valkyr and Oberon make it pretty clear that entire tilesets can accompany a new frame, so why not say, branch off of Earth and make some Corpus/Grineer levels on the Moon, just as a quick example? (https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/155205-warframe-concept-orbit-the-mastermind-of-the-galaxy/'>here, I'll even throw in a random frame idea I found that fits that) Heck, give a 4-man squad a reason to do stealth - maybe fill a level with strong singular patrolling guys that benefit from being stealth attacked and are always unaware and add this to a bunch of nodes on a new area of the map called something like "Saturn Spy Cell".  I can go on all day, but I think my point's clear.

 

As for Nekros - Desecrate is nice to have, but it shouldn't be a necessity for efficient farming. The fact that it is (and the fact you have to farm Nekros himself!) doesn't come off as a good sign to me.

 

tl;dr We get RNG's a necessity, but so is content made through solid progression and new things to do instead of farming for randomly spawning plants or grabbing the latest gun/frame/camera. Even if you don't rework the RNG, much more varied and progessive-type content needs to be put in.

Edited December 29, 2013 by ZephyrPhantom

[se05239]

 - if you are willing to excuse the mess that is Derelict Survival's reward table at the moment - 

 

I am not willing to excuse the mess just yet. Not while I am still getting 1k credit rewards and common 3 cores at 30 minutes.. It doesn't even help that some rooms have really bad spawns which makes getting oxygen drops hard to get without having a Nekros in the party.

 

Some things that have been brought up, by me in my own "rng sux, plz remov" thread a while back, and by others is to have pseudo-random RNG. Like, the chance for X increases by Y% everytime you don't get it. This value then reset when you finally do get it. The more t3 capture runs you do in search for Orthos Prime Blade and don't get it, the larger the chance of getting it will be on next run. This value can reach 100%, eventually garantueeing Orthos Prime Blade as reward.

 

Speaking of 100%, didn't DE say something about "fixing" RNG when they answered my "when will you remove RNG" question latest livestream? 

[Blatantfool]

-snip-

-snip-

Wow. Well said, both of you.

Forums need more of this.

I feel very similar to both of you. After reading your posts I don't have anything particularly interesting to add.


Xrylene, you're absolutely right. This game being a F2P experience pushed DE in the direction of the common F2P MMO - where the RNG is really, really heavy and meant to be quite time consuming as to give the players a long enough experience that the Devs have time to finish new content and roll it out, starting the process again.

When I mentioned hitting the sweet spot above I meant to imply that DE still doesn't know how or where they should leave the tables to prevent the nature of the RNG heavy F2PMMO method from being too grating on the nerves.


Zephyr, I feel that in the short term pushing items off the incredibly stressed Void tables into the currently empty Orokin Derelict couldn't hurt at all. It relieves some pressure that has built up for far too long without a release valve.

I'm thinking, however, that it is most certainly time for DE to start creating new keys. T4-5 Void keys, and T2-3 Derelict keys. This will give them more breathing room for the tables. They need it and will continue to need it far into the forseeable future.

I'm thinking introducing the keys will need to work different then how Current Void keys are implemented. Once they've spread out the Void drops a bit and cleared up some of the congestion they could include a Reusable T4 Void Key in each T3 type. (T3 Defense could net you the T4 Defense key, which is a permanent BP) - then the keys are crafted with items that will drop in Void similar to Nav Coords. T4 Keys could net you the T5 key BP. The same could happen for Derelict. Creating a bit of a chain for players to constantly work on while farming.

The big difference past T3 (Instead of ramped up levels) could be new Void enemy types. T5 Keys could have Void Versions of almost every Factions Elite enemies present in the enemy mix, for instance. That alone would make the keys incredibly difficult without needing to be a higher level then T3's.

I am not willing to excuse the mess just yet. Not while I am still getting 1k credit rewards and common 3 cores at 30 minutes.. It doesn't even help that some rooms have really bad spawns which makes getting oxygen drops hard to get without having a Nekros in the party.

Some things that have been brought up, by me in my own "rng sux, plz remov" thread a while back, and by others is to have pseudo-random RNG. Like, the chance for X increases by Y% everytime you don't get it. This value then reset when you finally do get it. The more t3 capture runs you do in search for Orthos Prime Blade and don't get it, the larger the chance of getting it will be on next run. This value can reach 100%, eventually garantueeing Orthos Prime Blade as reward.

Speaking of 100%, didn't DE say something about "fixing" RNG when they answered my "when will you remove RNG" question latest livestream?

Aye. I agree. It is freaking stupid. However, I'm completely convinced DE wont be leaving it that way, so I'm ignoring the issue for this discussion based on the assumption that it will not be an issue much longer.

What was important to the point I was making was just the whole "DE choosing to fill a Drop table that has been sitting empty and useless" as opposed to filling Void keys up even more.

[ralifur]

Ill vouch for you asking for new content as yes the grind does indeed get tedious in the end.

 

But I will have to say that I do understand why they are using the grind and time delay mechanic since it is a F2P game.

 

They have to earn money and a general thing most f2p mmorpgs seem to do is to charge money to shorten time for something to happen either craft something. farm for something or do whatever for you to get further faster than having to go through what there is available.

 

Nonetheless a grind mechanic is also there to keep you playing longer as to be honest if there was no grind at all in warframe then you would be done with the game in 2 - 3 days. Theres no reason to run through the same pve map and theres not really any super amazing awesome pvp to keep you going forever either tbh (atleast this is my oppinion regarding the pvp)

 

And if you did finish the game in 2 - 3 days and then not have anything to do then how would DE continue to earn money through your extended play.

 

I also dont think I can name one mmorpg which does not have you grinding the same thing over and over again to progress your character to finally hit the top until you have nothing to do and then end up quitting or stand around a fountain for 5 hours waiting for a raid (yes im looking at you WoW -.-)

 

Nonetheless there can be diversion in what you grind but I suspect thats hard to achieve in a tps where shooting things is generally what you have. (Dailies, Raids, PvP, Crafting progression, Reputation. Just to name how you can diversify grinding but generally it all leads to doing it)

 

 

Honestly I personally feel that if they made more proper player interaction in the game then the grind wouldnt be so bad.

When you are doing it with other people that actually talk then that takes your mind off of what you are actually doing and just enjoy the company.

Just right now nobody barely says anything and whenever someone does use the chat its generally to mouth off that someone sux as a host or play bad in the mission.

 

 

Would love to see one big hub where you could have several people running about in their warframes and access a console to get a mission briefing or such. Would give the possibility to also show off what you have achieved as well as actually communicate. I really dont like the current chat system. Would probably need to channel it tho to not have a big warframe clusterfuck. :-P

 

This is just to mention one idea tho

[DitsyPixie]

Nice effort, but I doubt DE will listen. I have an inkling that they will only start listening once it's already too late and the game is dying.

Edited December 29, 2013 by DitsyPixie

[se05239]

Nice effort, but I doubt DE will listen. I have an inkling that they will only start listening once it's already too late and the game is dying.

 

It does kinda feel that way, don't it?

Well, they are on holidays now so maybe we get to hear something about this later on.

I know I am gonna bring RNG up again next livestream, if it is a valid question.

[spacedkadet]

Well i like the rng, I love that buzz you get when you finally get the part you needed. awesome.

 

Like it or not this game is rng grind based. Don't like it? find another game to play.

 

HOWEVER I do think more content which gives MORE things to do also is needed. But I don't get all the hate for rng as a mechanism, if you got all the weapons quickly with no randomness then the game would run out very fast even with more content.

 

So if you added a complete new solar system or a new system of gameplay modes with harder bosses and more game types you will stall have the same problem, people will complete it quickly and run out of game. This is an open-ended f2p game, the weapons do need to be more difficult to obtain.

 Just look at what they have done with warframes, guaranteed part on each boss kill means i got all the parts within 30 mins of its release, they spent ages making it and designing the skills for what? running the boss 3-6 times? maybe a couple more if you where unlucky. 

 

I accept this game for what it is and I like it.

[BETAOPTICS]

 - Snip -

Yes but the difference here is that there isn't much other than the RNG, farming and grinding. Borderlands reminds this game in a sense but it has so much more to offer that it get's away from this and you can freely trade everything there so you have a good chance to experience all the content regardless. Now I'm not blaming DE here that they have to get rid of RNG all together, it indeed is hard but if they are going to keep it this way then it will be problematic because right now this is all we have so it is more visible for players and because of that, it has a greater impact on players than on other games that pose that kind of mechanic. Even in them, if you realize it, it generally is not a good feature though currently it seems to be a necessary one for some reason.

I agree that the move to include some gear in Orokin Derelicts was a good move but let's take a estimation from two years from now on. There are 300 different weapons or easily more and over 30 Warframes to choose from and every item has a Prime version too. Now we still have two modes with maybe 15 game modes at max to go along with them and the same drop chances and reward system, I mean one part reward at a time. Can you see the increasing problem? I can it doesn't look good, this is why there needs to be action and I would rather do that action now than when it is too late.

[VoidGhost]

I'll start by saying that if we are ever going to get DE to start focusing on supporting the game properly, and not using RNG band-aids to keep people playing and grinding endlessly, we need as unanimous of a call for change as possible. To that end, we need more threads tackling the RNG, and more founders supporting them. Founders in particular should have some weight in fixing the issues with the game, so it's important that it actually gets used.

 

Now, onto the RNG itself, and why it's a problem that can't be alleviated by messing with drop tables.

 

 

1: No matter what you do, unless you change the system to one where a player gets a guarantee of something after a certain amount of missions, enemies killed, or whatever means is used to obtain blueprints and mods, there will always be people who get lucky and get it on their first try, and people who may never get it at all, especially if they become frustrated over time and quit even trying. People supportive of RNG often cite how they got lucky with something, which makes it fine, or how the low drop rates of things make things "difficult" to obtain, when the reality is due to the very nature of RNG, that "difficulty" is variable, there is no way of knowing if it will take 1, 10, 100, or more runs of something to get it, the only thing that can be said for certain is that a percentage of the population of players would on average get it after x runs. DE seems to think this is acceptable, that so long as a percentage of players get something, that it's fine, when the only reason people keep playing is to get things in the first place. If someone gets lucky and often gets what he wants, he may lose interest because grinding is the only content in this game, and he has nothing left to grind for. if someone never manages to get what they want, they will lose interest in the game because they are just doing the same task over and over again for a reward that will probably just be used to grind something else later. At either end of the spectrum, the game is not fun, and you will lose players and potential profits, losing more potential if those same players give your game a bad name to others who may be interested or who leave with them.

 

 

2. Your game only continues by constantly adding content patches, more things to grind with, and more things to grind for, and as you add them, they dilute your tables further, resulting in more grind for everyone regardless of what they are interested in obtaining, while simultaneously over saturating your game with near duplicates of existing content with minor statistical and visual differences. Let's be honest here, you took the Prime equipment, something that once existed as a minor founder bonus, and turned it into palette swaps with higher stats, and tuned it to act as yet another "grinding instead of content" feature in your game, adding the further layer of the key system, and then called that one of your biggest updates to the game yet. That patch actually irked my friends and I enough that we quit, $100 invested in this game or not, I was not going to accept that total disregard for your playerbase. While I did return, ever since I got back I've been playing primarily to test the waters to see what has changed since then, so that I could give appropriate feedback, and so far you've managed to disappoint me by adding more grinding and RNG into the game

 

 

3. Despite the playerbase being fairly explicit in their hatred of RNG as a means of progression, you still haven't learnt your lesson there, either. Players still have absolute must have mods, such as health, or raw damage, things that shouldn't even be mods at all because they aren't a choice, locked away by RNG, with many important mods unavailable until either later areas, or from rare mobs. With the new damage rework system for example, having access to one of each element has become an essential aspect of gameplay, and yet then there is Contagious Spread, an example of a mod that has a random chance of dropping, from a rare enemy, that seems to only spawn in certain missions, which may or may not exist at any given time due to randomly shifting infestations.

 

 

4. Grind is all you have. I'm sure I wasn't the only one who noticed, that more than anything, the new invasion system caused one particular outcry. Farmers got upset. Farmers lost missions like Palus, Phalan, Cyath, Xini, and more recently, Kappa. People played missions like these over and over again not because they were fun, but because they provide the most reward in the least amount of time with the least frustration. These rewards, with the exception of the experience farming missions, were also tied to RNG, such as void keys, or Banshee's helmet. And people would not need to farm these missions so often, if it weren't for drop rates being horrible in the case of void drop rates, or the Banshee helmet rarity, or if the game wasn't overstated with redundant equipment that all needs to be leveled(with Forma polarization adding a further grind on top of that to keep people playing). If the RNG and over saturation weren't present, people wouldn't have been upset over the loss of some of the only non-frustrating places that they could play over and over again, because they wouldn't need to repeat the same content over and over again. Of course, this is where the real problem lies, if players weren't grinding survival, defense, and the void, you wouldn't have any content to keep them playing, would you? Which is the entire point of this, you hide lack of content behind RNG and grind in the hopes we players won't notice and will eat it up, maybe even buy some (RNG based) packs or mods packs, or buy your other overpriced items form your market.

 

 

So what do you do DE? Will you continue to do the same thing? Would you continue if your players stopped supporting your game? What would it take to take this skeleton of a game, with spells and swords(which both need work as well by the way), guns and parkour, and actually bring out it's potential? I supported a game that had fun concepts, because I wanted to see them taken further. This game has gradually strayed further and further from that, and now I'm starting to wonder if the time and money spent were wasted on a bunch of developers who don't even play their own game.

 

Edit: Oh, and just saying, but Nekros? Almost no one would bother even using him if his ability to reroll the RNG weren't present. You literally have a Warframe that people only bring because he gives players a second shot at some of the RNG in the game. Even Ember is a better design than he is, and she's pretty terrible.

VERY IMPORTANT.

 

Pleasse have in mi9nd that we as a comunity require less text references due to our way of life and time available.The Developer team work hard yet what should be added is variety.When you are a veteran player you dont want to see the same armor and helmets you want your character to EVOLVE

[Rarnd]

Agreed. RNG needs to be refined or gotten rid of entirely.

 

We need story, lore, interesting mechanics in fights; CONTENT. Not another melee weapon, not another frame, not a new tileset. True content; maps with real puzzles or secrets (a bit more interesting and intuitive than the orokin "secrets" that give a couple extra cabinets as a reward), bosses that force you to move like a ninja instead of standing there unloading clip after clip.

 

You know, interesting stuff.

 

We really need story and mechanics and puzzles and FUN stuff.

 

We really DON'T need another weapon, another tileset or another frame / prime thrown into the RNG pool.

 

Pls DE.

[VoidGhost]

Agreed. RNG needs to be refined or gotten rid of entirely.

 

We need story, lore, interesting mechanics in fights; CONTENT. Not another melee weapon, not another frame, not a new tileset. True content; maps with real puzzles or secrets (a bit more interesting and intuitive than the orokin "secrets" that give a couple extra cabinets as a reward), bosses that force you to move like a ninja instead of standing there unloading clip after clip.

 

You know, interesting stuff.

 

We really need story and mechanics and puzzles and FUN stuff.

 

We really DON'T need another weapon, another tileset or another frame / prime thrown into the RNG pool.

 

Pls DE.

indeed I vote for that.It is good to think as a VETERAN player because that way you se the future.The game should adapt dungeon type stages and rewards.The designers do work good yet more variety is needed

[Bazools]

That RNG sucks i totally agree with... The OP has gotten all the main issues with it right the thing is i don't think we'll ever get an alternative system to RNG since DE in it's endless wisdom made RNG not only responsible for the droptables (which sucks &#!) but also made it in charge of generating a lot of other stuff tileset related (sparks, particles, energy/health orbs, etc) so i think that a RNG replacement would mean that DE would have to change the game engine code which i do not believe will happen.

 

RNG was DE giving itself a bullet to the foot, if you know what i mean.   

[TheDoctah]

Only thing that awaits you at the end of the game is sweet RNG Abyss, 

 

If you can even say this game has a real end game. After farming the void many times, I finally threw in the towel and decided to hold off on playing for a while and see where this game goes. I can only hope they move further away from rng, I fully agree with the op. Been pretty supportive of this game myself as far as money goes but I pretty much pulled the plug on that now cause I won't put money behind a bad concept. There is just way too much rng in this game, I really wish DE would reduce it. Didn't they say in a livestream not too long ago that they wanted to reduce grind? I've only seen more reasons to grind lately. : (

Edited December 29, 2013 by TheDoctah

[TheDoctah]

OP: Its timeto stop making threads like this. its getting old. I hate rng but i adapt deal with it.

This kind of post will not bring anything to the table, being quiet about it isn't going to help you. Do you seriously stay quiet when you see something is clearly wrong? RNG is absolutely horrific in this game, it's amazing that DE hasn't fixed it sooner. You can keep being a puppet if you want though. 

[General_Krull]

Well i like the rng, I love that buzz you get when you finally get the part you needed. awesome.

 

Like it or not this game is rng grind based. Don't like it? find another game to play.

 

HOWEVER I do think more content which gives MORE things to do also is needed. But I don't get all the hate for rng as a mechanism, if you got all the weapons quickly with no randomness then the game would run out very fast even with more content.

 

So if you added a complete new solar system or a new system of gameplay modes with harder bosses and more game types you will stall have the same problem, people will complete it quickly and run out of game. This is an open-ended f2p game, the weapons do need to be more difficult to obtain.

 Just look at what they have done with warframes, guaranteed part on each boss kill means i got all the parts within 30 mins of its release, they spent ages making it and designing the skills for what? running the boss 3-6 times? maybe a couple more if you where unlucky. 

 

I accept this game for what it is and I like it.

Your logic is flawed and keeping rng as is will destroy this game. And as for your example, what point is in designing a warframe if it's locked in rng purgatory? And isn't the point of a warframe to use it? So how long it takes to obtain has nothing to do with his abilities or whatever.

 

Also rng as a system is not rewarding at all, if it was just grind you would have a clear goal to work towards. With rng it's just dumb luck, if you get everything you need in a few runs you end up feeling "wait, that's it?" or if you have to hundreds of runs to get one last prime part you will end up feeling bitter and annoyed over how much bs you had to cut trough. Rng has to go.

[FlyDungas]

It is too extensive yes, I'm taking a lil break for BF4 so I can watch from behind that nearby shrub over there

[D3ST]

DE: "tldr and we don't care"

 

But yes rng is terribad and Nekros is only used for his third ability, maybe his second also.

Wut??, Nekros Ult. is great for CC..

 

On topic, yeah, that RNG is really not the way to go, every new prime weap/frame is just diluting it even more and more..

Edited December 29, 2013 by D3ST

[ThePresident777]

RNG per se isn't bad.  It's the atrocious drop rates that &!$$ me off and the loot pool dilution.  What use do I have for 5 billion Slash Dashes?   I appreciate being able to sell them for credits and use them in fusion.  But, it's clogging up the loot tables.  Credit cache in survival are just a big "@(*()$ troll u" right in the face.  Right back at yah, DE.  Latron Prime BP add infinitum ...........

Edited December 29, 2013 by ThePresident777