De, It's Time To Stop Relying On Rng Instead Of Game Design

[matto]

RNG is not a problem, the problem is how they communicate about it and deliver it to us, aka drop and reward tables issues.

[Sidathe]

Well, I gotta admit I have no love for RNG, but this kind of threads keep piling up for who know how long.

 

No disrespect intended, but if DE gonna give a f*** about this problem or have any better idea, they'd have done it long ago.

I keep seeing these threads...and they never offer anything new to replace it. It's easy to argue someone should kill themselves. It's pretty hard to argue why they should live. :l

[NukaKV]

Do you guys honestly believe DE will take notice to this thread? I'm sorry, but I've already seen dozens of threads like this before and none of them were acknowledged. Don't get your hopes too high.

[Rhiasu]

You act like this is the only the game that has RNG. I've played other games with worse RNG than this. At least they don't have the gachapon-style items in the market or upgrade system that uses it. 

Edited December 28, 2013 by Rhiasu

[WondahBoah]

I remember Steve saying once (I think in a forum post) that more experienced Devs told him that updates are life; if you aren't pumping out updates, your playerbase will abandon you, and you will make no money.

Steve. DE. Come on.

You guys need to realize that those words are probably coming from people whose games have actual content, optimal mechanics, a solid story line, AND ARE OUT OF BETA (if you can call it that anymore).

 

RNG is not content. RNG is not a story. Excessive RNG is a very poor mechanic. You could play the "but everyone else is doing it" card. Fine. But you have something special that they don't. Potential.

 

DE you have too much potential with Warframe, as well as too few credentials to lie and say RNG makes a game.

 

 

If you want to still call this a beta, you're gonna have to do some intensive work on the game. Maybe do updates every other week. Do updates that are solely for bug exterminations and mechanics fixes. Think out your events. Reduce the influence of RNG. WRITE A DAMN GOOD, HEART-WRENCHING, JAW DROPPING, EPIC M'FER OF A STORY THAT'LL WIN SOME AWARDS DAMMIT. Ahem. (fix pricing... sorry, different fight).

 

Erm.

 

There's my 2 cents. See ya in January.

Edited December 28, 2013 by WondahBoah

[Chaosdreamer]

De must see this , time to die RNG , you have been good with me , but until they "update you to be real RNG and no linear anymore" you left me , so R.I.P

 

@Rhiasu ,  probleme , is We have only two thing ingame , Grind & Rng , don't tell me we have alot of different mission that would be false :

 

Enter - > Kill everything -> do your mission / press X somewhere -> KIll stuff -> on the to go extraction Kill stuff - > extraction -> Repeat -> PS : Pray RNG God between all steps

[Sylorknag]

What I'm going to say might not carry the same weight since I'm fairly new to the game ... or might mean something coming from a new perspective. I like the game a lot, I love the aesthetic and the concept, but the grind...

I've played for two weeks straight until I got frustrated and bored. I understand that this game is meant for you to grind for items, but good lord, there is some mechanics that is just out of proportion ridiculous. Like FORMAS.

I have to grind the mission for the forma print plus the mats, the time that you have to wait; and them someone has the brilliant idea to make the forma reset your item level. Seriously guys, I don't know how all of you vets can put out with this.

This is the pinnacle of griding. It's flat out "we want you to grind your life out." This is one major reason I'm already taking a break after playing for only two weeks.

Another thing that pisses me off is there you're blind buying an item, there's is no way to know if you will like that thing you have farmed for 5 days straight (I'm looking at you Saryn).

SMITE (it's a moba game for those who don't know) does something very good that other games mostly never do. They let you test the things you want in a training mode before you commit with the purchase. Why can't we have something similar here?

And from what I have seen, sometimes there's some updates that turns the items you grind for, not so viable anymore, damage 2.bullS#&$.

To me ( and bear in mind I only played for two weeks, non stop tho*) it seems that every mechanic, update implemented into the game is done with the purpose to force more grind into people, and that is just a terrible design IMO.

So there go, this is my feelings about the game right now. Please don't hang me!

Edited December 28, 2013 by Sylorknag

[spartan-322]

The problem I see is that instead of playing the game for the sake of having fun, people play it to get all the cool loot. If your main goal in the game is just to get all the latest weapons, then you are missing the point of the game. Sure, you can go for hoarding every single item, which is not a bad thing to do, but when you are asking the developers to change an entire mechanic because you can't achieve that, then the one at fault is you, and not the game.

 

If you see that RNG is truly broken, then ask for it to fix it instead of just replacing it.

[A5PECT]

You act like this is the only the game that has RNG. I've played other games with worse RNG than this. At least they don't have the gachapon-style items in the market or upgrade system that uses it. 

 

Saying "It's not the worst out there" doesn't change the fact it's pretty damn bad.

 

There are games that do RNG badly, and there are games that do it well. Warframe is currently in the former category.

 

I enjoy a well-designed RNG-based game, and I'm open to DE trying to improve Warframe in that regard. But they've had almost a year to do so and have made no recognizable progress. The few steps taken towards improvement (warframe parts as mission rewards rather than physical drops from bosses, item drops being partitioned into various enemies) have been eclipsed by DE's other design gaffes (oversaturating drop tables, arbitrary enemy types being inexplicably rare, gating content behind the grind walls that are Void and Orokin Derelict keys).

 

They're obviously trying to fix things. They just need to learn how to stop shooting themselves in the foot.

Edited December 28, 2013 by A5PECT

[slappy330]

It's simple...we kill the RNG(and the man who thought it was a good idea).

[BETAOPTICS]

OP: Its timeto stop making threads like this. its getting old. I hate rng but i adapt deal with it.

Don't listen to him. As long as we discuss and influence the game is alive and people care for it, and not just be brainless muppets who just ' deal with it '.

Influencing is the thing we are here for and it is what DE is looking for and expecting from us as long as it is respectful and constructive so keep posting these, I'll suport you!

Edited December 29, 2013 by BETAOPTICS

[f3llyn]

Signed. RNG is boring.

[BETAOPTICS]

RNG is not a problem, the problem is how they communicate about it and deliver it to us, aka drop and reward tables issues.

Sorry matto but I have to disagree. RNG as a system indeed is a flawed one in itself, only made worse due to poor communication. How so? Well because not only is your chances of getting what you desire low already, you have to hope that you get the right keys to get the loot from and we can't even rely that our information is correct due to decryption but that is another topic for another time. Not only this but ever increasing pool of obtainable loot will delude the drop pools making each part potentially harder to obtain.

Now I mentioned that at first it is a good system and indeed so, but that only lasts as long as you just do the missions for fun and want and need all the parts for every gear that can drop, it devolves into a problematic system after you set goals you want and getting what you want can be as easy as just doing three missions or it can mean a frustrating unrewarding grind for moths with no results whatsoever. It might ruin your fun from the start or might mean that you will only trick yourself into going there time and again and never gain what you desire.

Of course it also means that while we farm something like the Fang Prime, we might get Paris Prime but if that weapon is not in our goal-weapons-to-get - category, then it matters very little to us thus making it a nearly pointless weapon to own. Even if we so get new content, satisfaction, logic and truth does not always go hand to hand with desire, goal and reason. So what that means is that even if we manage to get Paris Prime, we sure are happy about it but only for so long, after all it is not the Fang Prime we care about. Even worse if it is a duplicate weapon we already could have build anyways.

It is also bad that currently there is no reliable way to guarantee that the player has access to the content he or she wants to experience. This is huge problem in a core design and should be fixed. We have no use for spare parts that we all will get plenty off and no way to guarantee that we can get what we want one way or another. This is what RNG can never accomplish in theory because no matter how many rewards you will give to the player in each given time, as long as there is a chance for variation, it can mean the player will not get what he wants and get very frustrated, ultimately resulting of him or her leaving the game because it is not fun, it is frustrating thanks to unlucky drops made by RNG.

What system I propose then?

Well there have been tons of great suggestions already that might as well just replace RNG without any negatives to DE or player alike, we need that relief for the sake of both players and the games lifespan alike. One system that has not gotten much attention is that you'd still have to go on a certain amount of void missions and complete them to get drops, but once a meter has filled up, you could then decide what drop you want to obtain manually from the list and it has to match the proper loot drop list of the said mission type. This way the game would still provide a chance to get the items quickly but giving most of the players a reason to go to the missions while still granting a guaranteed desired drop chance for a desired part off a item or reward.

So in chart. I want Fang Prime Blade. I can get it from each of the 10 defense missions I do but I can also get 10 Paris Prime parts from them and not what I seek for, that Fang Prime Balde. Now I have completed 10 of the defense missions and I get to choose an additional rewards from the loot table to show my accomplishments on that specific mission type. The rewards could scale all the way from Froma to credits, neither is what I'm looking for but there is the wonderful Fang Prime Blade I have been drooling over for so I pick that as my additional reward. Now I have played plenty of missions provided to me but I have also gotten what I desire and it is guaranteed that I can get what I want. Goodbye all the frustration that the RNG will cause. I get to enjoy the game once again and start to look for another goal weapon. Simple as that and yet, remains fair for all.

Edited December 29, 2013 by BETAOPTICS

[drMightyPotato]

The problem I see is that instead of playing the game for the sake of having fun, people play it to get all the cool loot. If your main goal in the game is just to get all the latest weapons, then you are missing the point of the game. Sure, you can go for hoarding every single item, which is not a bad thing to do, but when you are asking the developers to change an entire mechanic because you can't achieve that, then the one at fault is you, and not the game.

 

If you see that RNG is truly broken, then ask for it to fix it instead of just replacing it.

The PROBLEM, if you will, is playing well over 50 games of ODS for one single item for the gun that i want cause of fun. 

Iv'e played this game for fun since day one for about three months. But there is a limit to how fun grinding for one damn oroking cell can be after so many run.  Yes i know there is good ol' Ruk that will provide cells but guess what: not everyone knows about, and its still grind when you have to kill a boss three or four times cause RNG just hates your guts.

[Arlayn]

I still prefer RNG over anything else... Luck is a good friend to have...

[shinydunsparce]

Grinding doesn't have to be a bad thing. It can be fun but it must be under control. In warframe its far out of control and its all that it has. Just grind.

I want more lore damnit! Where do tenno come from? Where do they live? How they they come to be in the current state they're in? (With their frames) whats the deeper thought behind the void and derelicts?

 

It's not even grind, I wish it was grind. All we have now is pure luck based loot system. If it was grindy I would at least know how far away I was from something.

[BETAOPTICS]

I still prefer RNG over anything else... Luck is a good friend to have...

And worst enemy to have, depending from perspective.

[Bakim0n0]

IMHO there should be specific transmutation recipies for mods (just let the community figure them out) to help offset a lot of the really noticable RNG mixed with progressive drop tables (like there used to be) rather than every tier of reward having the exact same offerings; and perhaps very limited superior drop tables (example: at 30 min on survival a gaurenteed rare mod etc).

I don't think RNG should be thrown out the window, but more fine tuned.

[drMightyPotato]

I don't think RNG should be thrown out the window, but more fine tuned.

Throw it out the window. Throw it out, burn it, drop 1k kg of bricks on it, beat it with a crowbar (a la HL2 style) and take a piss on it. 

If it still doent behave lock it in a closet with a hungry tasmanian devil (from loony toons) and throw some grenades in it.

I dont hate rng... why do you ask? O_o

[Gemini_Jenvas]

it certainly is sad that if you are lucky you get stuff on the first try or you might never get it because after dozents of runs you give up. then they tune down the harsh rng a bit and we get bosses like lephantis or alad v, which only take you a few runs with a ganrateed drop (that is still scewed because one part has a lower drop chance) and then you never play those missions again because there is no value in doing so.

rankup tests are fun as they actually take skill and not just grind, but they dont really reward you. why cant there be small challanges that give a garanteed reward? something simlar to achivements, like you kill a number of a certain enemy in a certain way and that  gives you a weapon part or even a mod.

this  game has much potential, but as the op said, its much like a skeleton right now. it needs true content, not just grind and it really needs story. not even the codex brought much of that, which was really disappointing for me.

[TheMandarin]

We live in an era of games like Farmville, WoW(and it's millions of clones) and cookie clicker. Grind and RNG are all games seem to be becoming these days.

wow does have a RNG mechanic, however, every time when WoW introduce a new patch, the game gives you a brand new world to explore. WoW doesn't rely on grind to keep its player base, but its creative content, and story line.

[Gemini_Jenvas]

everyone who just tells everyone to deal with how things are: are you enjoying your turkey and S#&$ sandwich? the turkey is good and you just have to avoid the S#&$. lets hope next time there isnt more of it or maybe less turkey, but you will just deal with that, right?

[Kagumin]

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/156071-void-ticket-system-a-replacement-for-rng/page-2

 

Relevant if you're going to bump.

Read some replies, you'll get a general idea on what you can do to improve RNG

[Xrylene]

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/156071-void-ticket-system-a-replacement-for-rng/page-2

 

Relevant if you're going to bump.

Read some replies, you'll get a general idea on what you can do to improve RNG

 

I'm not here to improve RNG, I'm here to get rid of it. That being said, I've been a supporter of token style suggestions for some time now. The problem is, even if you do that, you don't fix the underlying problem, the reason for the RNG and grind in the first place. The complete and utter lack of good content. That's why my thread is focused less on how to solve the RNG issue, and more on how it shouldn't exist in the first place, and how they need to focus instead on improving the core experience. To that end, links or posts in regards to what those core improvements could be would be more useful.

[Kagumin]

I'm not here to improve RNG, I'm here to get rid of it. That being said, I've been a supporter of token style suggestions for some time now. The problem is, even if you do that, you don't fix the underlying problem, the reason for the RNG and grind in the first place. The complete and utter lack of good content. That's why my thread is focused less on how to solve the RNG issue, and more on how it shouldn't exist in the first place, and how they need to focus instead on improving the core experience. To that end, links or posts in regards to what those core improvements could be would be more useful.

 

I don't know what to tell you then, every online game I have come across have always encountered the problem on how to balance progression and gameplay. Maybe I'm playing the wrong games, but I've yet to see it actually work in practice for both the developers and the players.