What Everyone Actually Means When They Say 'token System'?

[Luminati07]

Normally I'd agree but this isn't about direct feedback this is about ruining the profitability of the game by altering people's perception of the value of the rewards and that damage is permanent.

Sorry, I'm at work at the moment. Sorry if I completely misunderstand your post with my reply. When I get home, I'll read over it again.

 

If we're talking about "value of the rewards", DE basically nullified any value they might have had when they introduced Prime Trading.

Prime gear had 'value' before, simply because they required effort to obtain on the player's part, with Prime Trading, there's no effort required, thus, no value.

 

Value has switched from prestige to platinum. I've expressed my concerns (and absolute hatred) for Prime Trading on multiple occasions.

 

If my perception of value is correct (doubtful, this reply is very rushed), then DE has already messed with it once, a 'beta' token system wouldn't do much to screw with it even more.

As long as the playerbase was properly informed of the change, and we understand that the token system is unfinished and not 100% intended for release, then I think it would be fine.

[CptFaustas]

As long as the playerbase was properly informed of the change, and we understand that the token system is unfinished and not 100% intended for release, then I think it would be fine.

And then what? It would get removed? Tokens would get wiped?

 

Any change would only worsen that situation.

[Luminati07]

And then what? It would get removed? Tokens would get wiped?

 

Any change would only worsen that situation.

Like I said, if the feedback is universally negative, remove it.

 

Now is the time to test things.

Players have been asking for a token system for a very long time. DE's only argument against it was "we don't want to add another currency".

 

It's time for this beta to start getting treated like a beta.

 

Since RNG has been complained about, not a single damn thing has been done.

Yes, DE has told us they are improving it, but time and time again, we have only seen more dilution, no solution.

[CptFaustas]

As someone else said already: the only way tokens would take your time and would be useful in the future is to make new tokens with every other content update. And then you get a lot of different tokens which would drop where?


Tokens ruined modern MMORPG's don't ruin a co-op shooter too.

[Luminati07]

As someone else said already: the only way tokens would take your time and would be useful in the future is to make new tokens with every other content update. And then you get a lot of different tokens which would drop where?

Tokens ruined modern MMORPG's don't ruin a co-op shooter too.

At what point did I say that new content would require brand new tokens?

 

I mentioned 2 types of tokens.

Orokin Salvage - T3 Void

Damaged Orokin Salvage - T1 and T2 Void

 

I already mentioned that keeping it simple would be better, and that too many tokens just overcomplicates the system.

 

With the release of Prime trading, it's clear that Prime gear isn't planned to be the highest tier of endgame equipment (at least, that's what I like to think. I hope that DE had some logic behind it).

Proper endgame gear wouldn't require tokens, they'd have some other method of obtaining them. (Thinking towards Badlands)

[CptFaustas]

And that's why i am against it. If i spam my missions even after i have all the gear i need, i will still get tokens, stockpile them and then just insta-buy any new thing that comes.

Having tokens mid-tier and then RNG on end tier beats the purpose of tokens imo.

[Carmellia]

This actually sounds good,I am down for this.

[Luminati07]

And that's why i am against it. If i spam my missions even after i have all the gear i need, i will still get tokens, stockpile them and then just insta-buy any new thing that comes.

Having tokens mid-tier and then RNG on end tier beats the purpose of tokens imo.

I never said RNG would be end tier.

 

In regards to instantly buying newly released Prime gear, I already covered that in my OP.

[CptFaustas]

I never said RNG would be end tier.

 

In regards to instantly buying newly released Prime gear, I already covered that in my OP.

"Delay it by a couple of weeks, or even a month." - that's the solution? So to beat RNG you will use RNG for a week and then just buy what you didn't manage to get? Why would prime parts even drop if there is a token system?

[Gr3vi3R]

A thing that may reward equal work instead of pure luck, of course.

Edited March 10, 2014 by Gr3vi3R

[Luminati07]

"Delay it by a couple of weeks, or even a month." - that's the solution? So to beat RNG you will use RNG for a week and then just buy what you didn't manage to get? Why would prime parts even drop if there is a token system?

It's not a definitive solution, but it is a solution.

 

The big problem with RNG is that one player can run 200 missions and get sweet F*** all, and another can run 5 missions and get everything. It isn't fair to the player at all.

 

I said that this token system would act as a supplement to RNG, not a replacement.

It would be designed in such a way that RNG is still the main factor, but when you've been farming for so long that you still haven't gotten what you need, you have the ability to purchase the parts with tokens.

 

It's 100% fair to the player, RNG is not.

(also, stops DE doing any sneaky S#&$ with the drop tables)

[CptFaustas]

We have trading so that things would be "fair". Games don't have to be fair.

 

And i am against the token system, that's that, but look at the perspective of "fair": new prime released > unlucky with RNG > after a time bought with tokens > wonder why i can't just buy with tokens from the start > get mad, complain on forums.

It's not even unrealistic progression and you know it.

The only "fair" way would be involving any kind of skill from players end. Since we don't have it now, it won't make things more "fair" it would make them only easier.

[SilentMobius]

It's not a definitive solution, but it is a solution.

 

The big problem with RNG is that one player can run 200 missions and get sweet F*** all, and another can run 5 missions and get everything. It isn't fair to the player at all.

 

It's a poor solution. A better solution is to allow players to "build up" lower-tier parts into other parts with a suitable number of _the_same_ type of part plus some other stuff (Other prime parts would be best, making sure that all drops are useful in some way) no additional currency, players still need to do the content to get the new drops, no stockpiling save for the supplementary bits.

Edited March 10, 2014 by SilentMobius

[Cineris]

Phew....when I read the title I was expecting bad news about a new token system like in Vindictus..you know, where you get a number of tokens per day and every mission you play costs one token? And of course you can buy more tokens with money....

 

But the actual idea doesn't sound so bad. I mean, if they don't  increase the price. If they implement such a system, but at teh same time increase the cost of token for stuff, it would be exactly the same effort, the same time-consuming crap, just in other packaging.

[CrazyCatLad]

Don't think I ever commented on this thread but of course a token system deserves my +1. 

 

DE needs to implement this four months ago.

Edited March 10, 2014 by Lanieu

[Mabswer]

Only Good Token System Is what Vindictus HAD    - not

[Skyknocker]

I'd rather take my chances and maybe (god-forbid) getting the things I want from the Void I run, the first time I run it. As unlikely as it is.

[DietEbolaCola]

Ugh. I hate token based economies. You are trading a lesser evil like RNG for a greater evil like endless grind. No thanks.

 

[LukeAura]

At this point as far as I see it the prime components are little more than tokens based entirely around an over cluttered rng system. That's all they are, we just haven't predefined them as 'tokens'. 

Trading does not solve the problems with rng. It's another in the long line of bandaids. It tries to hide the wound and ease the pain, but it does nothing to actually solve the problem.
The trading system we have now in essence, is just a highlight to a flawed system. Think about it. Why should I ever grind towards anything in particular? Trading is so much more effective than actually trying to achieve an item I want.
I have at best a 20% chance to get the key I want from survival, so instead of running the mission many times I over to get the one I need I can get four random keys one after the other, and I can then go trade the prime items I get from them for the four pieces of a prime I want. It's essentially cutting the average time to get a key by over half. And then if I don't get the specific item I want from that key? Well I'm out of luck there, better go regrind for that key. 
When the system ultimately fails to put focused grinding as an improvement over random grinding something is wrong. It doesn't matter if prime trading makes it easier because the system has objectively failed. Focused grinding should be the whole point of the system, and trading should be the supplement when it fails because of rng. But instead trading is everything and rng is just the flavour of what I trade. 
And Trading only works while there is a surplus of overstocked people trading. Eventually dilution and tradings popularity will outrun peoples stock of items. In the long run it will start to fail, or prices will go up and people will be less likely to buy items. 

A proper solution to rng is some form of hard cap to rng. Or a hard cap to how diluted the table can get. 
A token system is a hard cap. 
But if anyone who disagrees would like to think up a better solution by all means, show Nugget up.  He'd probably be delighted. 
And if you need a way to avoid having people stock pile void tokens give them a way of being bled out of the system. Orokin based cosmetics. Tokens for credits, whatever.
 

 

Ugh. I hate token based economies. You are trading a lesser evil like RNG for a greater evil like endless grind. No thanks.

rng is an endless grind if you are unlucky enough. And no grind at all if you are lucky. 
At least a token system puts a consistent hard cap at inequality. 

[DietEbolaCola]

 

 

rng is an endless grind if you are unlucky enough. And no grind at all if you are lucky. 

At least a token system puts a consistent hard cap at inequality. 

 

The inequality will be in choosing mission type. Everyone will spam easymode missions instead of requiring variety to farm their tokens, unless you have a different token for each key, and even then you are still farming and stockpiling tokens, and making the system more complicated than it needs to be.

 

I'd rather jump into a mission and try my luck than know I have to do the same mission 30 times in a row to get the part I need. That's just depressing.

[LukeAura]

I'd rather jump into a mission and try my luck than know I have to do the same mission 30 times in a row to get the part I need. That's just depressing.

A token system allows for the ability of both. Nugget never says 'replace' rng with all tokens. He is supplementing it. 

You can either play the slots, or do the 30 runs. 

 

 

The inequality will be in choosing mission type. Everyone will spam easymode missions instead of requiring variety to farm their tokens, unless you have a different token for each key, and even then you are still farming and stockpiling tokens, and making the system more complicated than it needs to be.

That's why the tokens are tiered. You can't run easymode missions and get the T3 tokens for the T3 items. 

[Luminati07]

I'd rather jump into a mission and try my luck than know I have to do the same mission 30 times in a row to get the part I need. That's just depressing.

It's not like I didn't mention several times that this system would be a supplement to RNG, not a replacement.

 

You would stlll be able to roll the dice for gear, but if you're unsuccessful for x amount of runs (Like I was with 50+ Dakra Blade runs), then you have the option to purchase your missing parts with tokens.

 

*Edit*

Ninja'd

Edited March 10, 2014 by Nugget_

[DietEbolaCola]

A token system allows for the ability of both. Nugget never says 'replace' rng with all tokens. He is supplementing it. 

You can either play the slots, or do the 30 runs. 

 

That's why the tokens are tiered. You can't run easymode missions and get the T3 tokens for the T3 items. 

 

 

It's not like I didn't mention several times that this system would be a supplement to RNG, not a replacement.

 

You would stlll be able to roll the dice for gear, but if you're unsuccessful for x amount of runs (Like I was with 50+ Dakra Blade runs), then you have the option to purchase your missing parts with tokens.

 

*Edit*

Ninja'd

 

And yet the topic title and the replies suggest replacement rather than a supplemental system. Perhaps it should be more clearly stated that you still get the RNG item as part of the drop table PLUS the tokens, to widen your tennoswag farming options.

 

Anyway, what about only spamming T3 Exterminates instead of T3 MD? What encourages mission variety among the playerbase?

 

[SilentMobius]

It's not like I didn't mention several times that this system would be a supplement to RNG, not a replacement.

 

You would stlll be able to roll the dice for gear, but if you're unsuccessful for x amount of runs (Like I was with 50+ Dakra Blade runs), then you have the option to purchase your missing parts with tokens.

 

*Edit*

Ninja'd

 

But as I said you can do this without adding another currency. Adding a currency has a psychological effect, it changes the reward dynamic, no one is looking forward to a drop any more they are simply trying to get one more token, which is the same as the previous token, it changes _gambling_ to _work_ this is why token systems die because they remove the emotional connection with the reward.

 

And @LukeAura, the reason the current components _aren't_ tokens is because they are not cross-compatible (Liquid to use the economic term), they have a single defined use.

Edited March 10, 2014 by SilentMobius

[LukeAura]

And yet the topic title and the replies suggest replacement rather than a supplemental system. Perhaps it should be more clearly stated that you still get the RNG item as part of the drop table PLUS the tokens, to widen your tennoswag farming options.

The topic title doesn't say anything about replacing or supplementing. 

It is talking about a clarification.