What Everyone Actually Means When They Say 'token System'?

[Luminati07]

I honestly hate Token systems. Good RNG, when coded right, is both rewarding and challenging.

 

A token system is nothing but grind and nothing but grind is boring.

Did you read my OP?

[matto]

I honestly hate Token systems. Good RNG, when coded right, is both rewarding and challenging.

 

A token system is nothing but grind and nothing but grind is boring.

 

Nugget_'s system is a double system in which you can have another way to get your desired item. If no lucky with RNG, just exchange it with the tokens you got. Just a sure way to get your reward after X time doing your mission.

[Dornez]

Did you read my OP?

I did, I see that you can "Get Lucky" and get your part, or you get salvage.

 

Still don't like it. There is something about already knowing that there is an eight hour timer above my head when farming for an item, or I may "Get Lucky".

 

Your Hybrid system actually makes it so nothing is "Rare" only more expensive.

 

Let me introduce you to "The Skinner Box" it will explain why a token system or even a token hybrid will only cause boredom in players looking for an actual challenge.

 

Edited January 9, 2014 by Dornez

[matto]

A lot of us actually already know about what is the Skinner Box.

 

I can understand, it's like the drop tables all over again. Some people need to know (like me), some prefer being left in the dark so they get surprised when they find something.

 

But I guess after a certain amount of hours playing the same game, you get tired of surprises and just want to reach your goal.

[Brasten]

I honestly hate Token systems. Good RNG, when coded right, is both rewarding and challenging.

 

A token system is nothing but grind and nothing but grind is boring.

An RNG system only works when the Loot obtainable is viable. Lets look at Borderlands 2, unless you absolutely love a certain "manufacturer" of weapon the majority of weapons dropped (in Green or Blue rarity) are viable at your level of the game. This an RNG that works, because generally no matter what it throws, even if you don't like the style personally, it will be viable. This holds for all similar loot drop dungeon crawlers from Diablo through to Path of Exile. You end up with a great deal of junk, which you can then sell, but as long as you are in the correct area of play you will be getting the correct gear. The "hard" part is finding that perfect combination of stats and "manufacturer" in purple (very rare) rarity. Most other "RPG" style games work the same way, a wide base of viable options at each level of play in the "RNG drops".

Games that don't have the breadth of drops become tediously futile grind fests or use other systems like tokens or crafting.

========

The issue is with currency accumulation... in tokens.

This is what DE likely is saying when they talk about "a third currency". This is unavoidable in any guarantied drop system. We already do have a dysfunctional currency, Credits. We could use Credits alone to "buy" into things if it wasn't so worthless a currency late game.

Frankly we have a Token system. It is Credits. Only DE can't figure out what to do with them. And that is what DE fears in a Token system. An ever increasing collecting of credits banked against new releases. How many old players just insta-bought and started crafting the new Drakgoon without even blinking?

DE actually has not yet followed my suggestion on that subject and instead made Transmutation, which is about halfway there.

We need a

Gheed

A random merchant who will let us buy our way into more hits at the RNG for Credits.

One of the few reasons ME3MP's pack system was even functional (never gonna say it was good) was because everything you did went into buying pulls at the RNG Weapon Access. Actually looked at it that way ME3MP was nothing but Gheed.

The other option is to keep increasing the amount of Tokens new items cost, and doing so rather quickly. Which is going to make new players and reviewers freak out with the "grind". There is actually a theoretical cost calculation that can be done in that situation with Tokens.

How much should a New "Void/RNG" item cost into Tokens:

Take the Average Number of Void missions that could have been run between the last "Void/RNG" release, assuming 1 Token per run, is now the Cost in Tokens of the new item.

Example:

Assume a Void item (weapon part) is worth 100 Tokens

Assume the average number of Void missions played by a Player per day is 5 (about 2 and half hours depending)

Assume it has been 1 month since the last Void release

Assume two new prime weapons and prime frame (3 parts to each, for 9 "parts" plus 3 for the BPs for 12)

5 tokens a day for 30 days (150 tokens). Divided 12 (number of items). Add that to the 100 base. "New" void items in that batch cost 112 tokens each.

The more time that passes between RNG locked releases the greater the Token cost becomes as the total average pool of accumulated Tokens increases. Throw in some additional math for assumed chances of picking up the items as random drops instead of being bought by tokens... and you have a pricing system.

[Tragixx]

My whole proposition is to keep the current RNG system, but add a token system on top of it.

 

So, you still have the chance at getting your Receivers or your Systems, but if you spend days and days farming for it and never get it, then you can go to the token shop and buy the part you're mission.

 

Giving up the loot for tokens does sound interesting though. However, I feel as if that would make it far too easy to farm tokens on Survival. Unless you are limited to exchanging 1 item per mission

 

 

I have huge problems with this:

 

Lets say random Tenno X needs both a glaive prime disc, and a blueprint. After a few hours (or days) of hard farming, they have no luck, but manage to get enough tokens to buy the disc. The very next run, they get the disc. Many headaches would be had at this point, and at the very most, a token system would be a bandaid to the current problem. A double system will just continue to allow the loot tables to be flooded as new content is added- i'd much rather see a huge overhaul that solves the problem, while still leaving the grind.

 

Don't get me wrong, the idea is a good one. Something definitely needs to be done to the Void.

[Ohmlink]

A token system would be fine with me, I was hoping Oxium would be that token.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

I have huge problems with this:

 

Lets say random Tenno X needs both a glaive prime disc, and a blueprint. After a few hours (or days) of hard farming, they have no luck, but manage to get enough tokens to buy the disc. The very next run, they get the disc. Many headaches would be had at this point, and at the very most, a token system would be a bandaid to the current problem. A double system will just continue to allow the loot tables to be flooded as new content is added- i'd much rather see a huge overhaul that solves the problem, while still leaving the grind.

 

Don't get me wrong, the idea is a good one. Something definitely needs to be done to the Void.

I personally like it because it allows people to get it in say, 3 runs, but also allows people to still have a max number of runs before they'll get it. Pretty much the best of both worlds (and they can sell that extra disc they got too)

[Zaresin]

I'm just gonna copy and paste my response to a previous RNG thread as it covers this topic as well and oddly enough talks about FFXIV.  

 

Yes it is an issue:  The loot table needs to have some dilution in order to draw out material the devs created for the players (similar to how raids are with MMOs, by the time the majority of the player base has completed the last batch a new batch should be ready).  With the current setup, we will find ourselves losing players due to being overly frustrated as a large part of the warframe community are a younger generation of gamer who are used to getting things rather easy (think wow's expansion Wrath of the lich king for an example compared to vanilla wow where items had single digit drop rates). If these players get overly frustrated (like yourself) they may leave the game till the next update which is usually a couple months for the major updates.  This does not prolong the life of the game as those players that are flighty are not contributing to matchmaking or buying or using plat in the market.  The game can inevitably stagnate during this time between major updates.

 

And we get to the no:  If players are allowed to get content too quickly, we have the same issue as if we got content too slowly.  The player base stagnates and as gamers tend to be fickle and flighty by nature they tend to jump ship easily and come back during major updates because they have already gotten the previous content over the course of a couple weeks.  

 

The gray area: We need a balance which we currently don't have.  We kind of had it in the old loot system, but if you had checked the forums in the past couple weeks there was always at least four or more forum posts on "RNG SUCKS" "FROST PRIME SYSTEMS DON'T EXIST" or something similar.  So the devs acted.  Yes the system needs tweaked, but no content should not be easy to get but not so difficult that it takes weeks to get one prime item even.  Token systems have been discussed on the forums in teh past and in my opinion they are a trap.  Instead of being excited about getting the item you needed to complete your fang or orthos prime, you mindlessly grind for a boring non exciting number of tokens designed to extend the life of the content.  Instead of YAY I FINALLY GOT THAT RECEIVER....its yay i'm finally done grinding these tokens now i can buy the receiver.  Most players dont' find that type of grinding fun (look at FFxiv and their tombstone token grinding, grinding the same dungeons over and over and over every week till you hit cap then doing the same thing next week till you have enough) at least here you have a chance to get the item off the bat.

 

People complained the loot tables were too diluted (as I said before 13 items in Tower defense were possible of dropping compared to the 9 now as a person pointed out).  They reduced the tables, which is a good thing we just don't ahve the balance between getting a rare item or a trash item...or you may just be having bad luck at the moment.  Thing is...they did what people wanted when the system before was actually better...hindsight always 20/20.  Be careful what you wish for kids....you might get it...just not how you thought.  That's a life lesson you should learn early on anyway. 

 

EDIT: Please note that grinding out the cap in FFXIV took one day....then you had nothing to do.

Edited February 11, 2014 by Zaresin

[Bloomers]

A token system would be fine with me, I was hoping Oxium would be that token.

Actually, this is one of the better ideas, but it isn't related to how you get the prime pieces right now.  You can't desecrate oxium ospreys so that provides the best opportunity without bringing in Nekros.  If I could throw out one idea to the token system (assuming it was picked up,) that at the very least new releases have a full/increased price so you can keep the same currency but not make any new release completely trash in terms of rarity which then decreases at the next prime release or whatever.

(Also GW2 is probably the worst example of a token system, never use it.)

[FrissonSeeker]

Nugget_, to deal with the stockpiling of tokens for new Prime Wweapons/Frames preventing that could be easy as:
1. Requiring an Orokin Lab in the Dojo

2. Having a Research time per component with a 2 week timer

[Mak_Gohae]

The biggest problem here, well, second to the game being pay to play, is that in this game you can run straight to objectives ignoring most of that is going on in a stage. In MMORPGs when you have to go through a dungeon you actually go through the dungeon. So if DE is going to put a token system in this game is going to have to be in missions where people have to go through the content like Extermination/Defense/Survival.

[WhisperByte]

So if DE is going to put a token system in this game is going to have to be in missions where people have to go through the content like Extermination/Defense/Survival.

I would be ok with that. I always liked exterminate for example...

[Valkyrie9001]

A Nugget Thread not containing a hundred sentences of hatred?

What is this?

[WhisperByte]

A Nugget Thread not containing a hundred sentences of hatred?

What is this?

Not hatred. Disappointment

[Zaresin]

The biggest problem here, well, second to the game being pay to play, is that in this game you can run straight to objectives ignoring most of that is going on in a stage. In MMORPGs when you have to go through a dungeon you actually go through the dungeon. So if DE is going to put a token system in this game is going to have to be in missions where people have to go through the content like Extermination/Defense/Survival.

Confused on how this game is pay to play.....

[WondahBoah]

not trying to swipe attention, but this old thread of mine

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/153422-voidderelictsrewards-re-vamp-updated-15/?p=1805373

 

was designed to overhaul the void/derelicts, as well as implement a token system. Prices of things are negotiable, but the main idea is that it's rather sustainable, and includes monetization opportunities for DE

[Mak_Gohae]

Confused on how this game is pay to play.....

 

I was referring to FFXIV. 

[Zaresin]

I was referring to FFXIV.

Ok that makes more sense.....I was like....wait...when did this happen....

[Temfist]

hey I posted a topic about this myself once upon a time.....no one ever replied to it....well at least this ones getting some attention!

 

+1 to Token System! (I didn't call it a token system in mine, didn't realize this was an affordance in other MMO's already)

[Kaidinah]

OP, there is not a thing that you said that I disagree with. Thank you for this detailed post that explains stuff so well. Also the numbers you posted sound pretty perfect. I hope Rebecca and Megan forwards this to the devs.

[Tekkaman-Blade]

I would love to see a proper token system implemented in the game

[Luminati07]

Surprised this thread is still going...

 

I only started playing again yesterday (after about a month or so off), and to little surprise, the RNG in the game is still atrocious. 

Think I've done about 10 void runs (not much, I know), got 9 keys and a Bronco Receiver or something.

 

Honestly, the void is just getting worse and worse, and DE have shown no indication of any interest in a token system. Which is a shame.

 

Like I said in my 16000 words of feedback thread, though, why should they?

Why should DE fix the horrible RNG systems?

 

The players that spend the most money are the newbies, simply because nothing is explained to them. They see shinies in the market and purchase plat.

Then, they hit the walls of RNG. But, DE already has their money.

 

So, I'll say it again, why should DE work on RNG?

From a profit's perspective, there's no reason at all.

 

Yeah, it's just the cynic inside me talking, but let's be honest. Every time the question about RNG has been brought up on Livestreams, they either dodge the question, say they are "working on it" (lol), or look extremely uncomfortable while answering (LS21 I believe)

I think it's safe to say that we're not going to see any kind of solution for a very long time.

[Rennagade]

I see two results-

1)  Players get their gear and are now more happy than previously as the grind is gone.

2)  Players get their gear and get bored as the grinds that kept people playing for hours on end is no longer there.

 

As weird as it may sound, #2 is a real possibility.

[Cyberdown]

I have a firm belief that a lot of gamers need protection from themselves or else they get everything they want super fast, then get bored, then get mad.

 

Either way they are mad.

 

But at least with RNG loot, they have a reason to keep going.

 

People who quit because they don't get RNG drops will quit just as fast after acquiring said drops from tokens.

 

I play ARPG games so I see this in every single ARPG...people who want instant gratifications spend lots of time and effort creating suggestions for features that are just a thinly veiled attempt to find an acceptable instant gratification reward system...so they can promptly complain how there is nothing to do now that they have all the gear needed...and then come the MMORPG feature suggestions.  Next thing you know they are basically suggesting a Burning Crusade expansion for whatever game it is...in this case Warframe.

 

What they need to do is expand the loot selection and gear, give us some other stuff to hunt other than materials.

 

Side note: Does anyone else remember back when people played the game because it was simply fun?  Seems most play based on what they are getting these days, and if they are not getting it fast, screw the game play, they call it grind and unfair and leave.

 

If you like warframes combat, and enjoy playing...and your able to do the content with what you have (no gear check that you need to rely on RNG...that's a no-no) it shouldn't matter if you are grinding, because the grind is playing, and playing is fun.

 

If you need constant guaranteed loot to enjoy it...you probably don't like the game.

Edited February 13, 2014 by Cyberdown