Melee 2.0: Shiny, But Useless Toy.

[Razer_Angel21]

Jedi Knight - hybrid. You can shoot or fight in melee and have superpowers.

 

Why use lightsaber? Reasons:

1) Absolute block.

2) Lightsaber (especially combo) is most powerful weapon in the game.

3) Enemies with bullet deflect (other Power users) or bullet resist.

4) Energy source is limited.

Exaf__ngzactly..you see,"limited"and wait a minute,you can shoot and fight with melee..I don't know that game but,i didnt get it..so you can shoot with that lightsaber??..holy sh*t.don't we have prosecutors that has resistances with certain damage types..and can deflect bullets..whoa..well if you wanna sacrifice shields and go full on stamina and stamina regen for blocking build you can block easily while regenerating stamina..tested on level 70's...aaand considering that light saber is what you call most powerful weapon in the game,don't you think the ranged weapons on that Jedi Knight are weaker and not on par with the melee?Well,of course they are not on par with the melee,you just said melee is the "most" powerful weap in the game so,you can't compare it to what the devs are trying to do as to "balance" and not to make melee the "most" powerful thing here.This game is all about options,the ranged weaps has powerfuls of their own and so as the melee section.That is why they said customization,you choose what you want,do what you want,create whatever playstyle you want.They didn't put the guns there just for flashy fire fights,they put those guns in there for an option.You see as you said that lightsaber is the most powerful weapon in the game..so lets say goodbye to our guns if that saber can block anything,and kill everything.But here in warframe,yes AoE weaps totally own defense than just slicing 3-5 enemies at the same time,but try to look at it.It's just the way it should be,you don't expect a freakin dagger to kill dozens of rampaging infested or trigger happy grineers at one attack,you wouldn't expect a longsword,katana,or any duals to do that either,you know why???Because that's what melee should be!!!Melee shouldnt be some flip it out and become immortal thing,dem even in the Immortal Ash build you still have to do tons of work for you not to die in higher levels.What I am trying to point out is that this is perfectly fine,it's the way it should be,each catagory has their own power representatives and that is what the dev wants,more options,more diversity,more uniqueness.They don't want the players to feel that there is just only one weap category that can dominate any mission.

[(PSN)theelix]

I don't think this was that bad. He's only thinking of the pros in this game with no consideration to anyone just starting. Making this game "balanced" in his direction would kill off all of our new players because they wouldn't be able to do anything but hide behind cover and block (assuming they know that that is a present feature in this game) Also, 1-3 clips? That's the stupidest  ideas I've ever heard of. That's assuming that you can kill more than one thing with a single clip. MK-1 Braton does not kill in one clip anywhere but Mercury without mods and that's just barely. You'd make it so fun and awesome for YOU to play this game... But you'd have literally #*($%%@ just about anyone who wants to start this game. I understand that with the blocking they can run into the enemy and melee, since melee would be your only option now, but you'd be screwed. Also, what about bosses you can't hit? How the hell are you going to defeat someone like Lephantis with three clips of any gun and no energy? Because you're sure as heck not meleeing him unless you use Zephyr or Excalibur on a high mobility build. 

 

Melee in this game was not meant to be a completely primary thing UNTIL NOW! 

[Vahlae]

New melee system will be useless. It can be "beautiful", "imbalanced", "glitchy" etc - but it will be useless in real game.

 

 

Let's make it clean - Warframe is TPS with simplified combat mechanics. Game balance designed for a gunfight, and also has other problems on its own.

 

Main problems:

1) Ranged weapon master race.

It's quite simple: Risk vs. Reward. Ranged weapons have a minimal risk, but highest reward. You can kill enemies one by one from cover, or kite infected without the slightest danger. Moreover, ranged weapon has the highest damage, can penetrate obstacles (modding) and has a large reserve of ammunition (it can be replenished during the mission).

 

2) Powers.

Press 4 to win. To be invisible. To be immortal. To wipe room. To control room. To be contined...

 

3) Game balance.

a) СС problems - inevitable and irresistible control effects.

b) Tank vs late game - insane damage from high level enemies can easy kill any tank. It's fight of glasscannons.

с) Lack of combat etiquette - enemies can freely attack you in crowds, without any hindrances.

 

 

 

What need to be done for REAL Melee 2.0:

1) Absolute block and parry system.

Not DMC, but Jedy Knight and Metal Gear Rising battle type.

 

a) Bullet deflection - when you hold melee weapon, all "light" ranged attacks reflected automaticly. If you attack, it's changed to damage reduction - signifcantly lowered ranged damage.

b) Absolute block - special block can hold any sort of attack, defend from any CC effect.

c) Parry and counter - time-stricted action. Can open enemy for deadly/very strong (for bosses and leaders) counterattack, return "heavy" projectile to sender.

 

"Light" = bullets, plasma projectiles, etc. - any "usual" shot.

"Heavy" = rockets, Milter's disks, etc.

"Irresistible" = sniper's shot - сan not be parried or reflected, blockable only.

 

Block must work in ANY direction, not just in front.

 

2) Enemy diversity.

All fractions adopted to modern warfare. They create new armor, shields and tactics to counter gunfire. What's why Way of the Sword is still alive - Tenno sword can beat unbeateable.

 

3) HP, tanking and CC system rework.

a) Rework of defence - defence modules with better effect. Real tank must miltigate some damage even on high levels, even from most dangerous enemies.

b) Stricted CC - all control effects can be avoided or blocked. There isn't any "insta-AOE-knockdown" or "infinity-chain-of-stuns". Handspring for free.

 

"You just wanna faceroll Pluto/T3/Nightmare!"

I want a chance to use my sword against Grineer squad or pack of Ancients/Chargers. Without the risk of being killed on the spot/controlled to the death.

 

 

4) Stricked ammunition for ranged weapon.

Each weapon should be limited to 1-3 clips. Supply of ammunition should be significantly limited. Ammo drops must die.

On Defence/Survival Lotus give you ammo drops.

 

That's the way to balance everything without nerfs. Use your gun now, or keep ammo for future boss? Kill this crowd with rocket launcher or take down armored leader without melee battle? Choices and decisions.

 

 

5) Stricked powers.

CD's and "rage" concept - you can gain energy only for damage/kill, melee give more energy.

 

 

 

P.S. "It's too difficult, you want to destroy the fun!"

I want VIABLE melee - not just funny toy. And simple shooter with unlimited powers can't have viable melee - there is just no way. It's question of game balance - every "melee orientated game" must strict ranged weapons.

 

P.P.S. Solved problems:

1. Ranged weapon master race 50%.

а) Melee weapon is much stronger now.

 

2. Game balance 20%

a) Block/parry system is created (but not completed).

b) CC effect can be blocked (part of them cannot be blocked).

 

 Absolutely agree, well, almost absolutely, since I also like ranged. Especially now, after M2.0 is live, is fun but pointless. You simply would not relay on a melee weapon in any mission.

[Razer_Angel21]

New melee system will be useless. It can be "beautiful", "imbalanced", "glitchy" etc - but it will be useless in real game.

 

 

Let's make it clean - Warframe is TPS with simplified combat mechanics. Game balance designed for a gunfight, and also has other problems on its own.

 

Main problems:

1) Ranged weapon master race.

It's quite simple: Risk vs. Reward. Ranged weapons have a minimal risk, but highest reward. You can kill enemies one by one from cover, or kite infected without the slightest danger. Moreover, ranged weapon has the highest damage, can penetrate obstacles (modding) and has a large reserve of ammunition (it can be replenished during the mission).

 

2) Powers.

Press 4 to win. To be invisible. To be immortal. To wipe room. To control room. To be contined...

 

3) Game balance.

a) СС problems - inevitable and irresistible control effects.

b) Tank vs late game - insane damage from high level enemies can easy kill any tank. It's fight of glasscannons.

с) Lack of combat etiquette - enemies can freely attack you in crowds, without any hindrances.

 

 

 

What need to be done for REAL Melee 2.0:

1) Absolute block and parry system.

Not DMC, but Jedy Knight and Metal Gear Rising battle type.

 

a) Bullet deflection - when you hold melee weapon, all "light" ranged attacks reflected automaticly. If you attack, it's changed to damage reduction - signifcantly lowered ranged damage.

b) Absolute block - special block can hold any sort of attack, defend from any CC effect.

c) Parry and counter - time-stricted action. Can open enemy for deadly/very strong (for bosses and leaders) counterattack, return "heavy" projectile to sender.

 

"Light" = bullets, plasma projectiles, etc. - any "usual" shot.

"Heavy" = rockets, Milter's disks, etc.

"Irresistible" = sniper's shot - сan not be parried or reflected, blockable only.

 

Block must work in ANY direction, not just in front.

 

2) Enemy diversity.

All fractions adopted to modern warfare. They create new armor, shields and tactics to counter gunfire. What's why Way of the Sword is still alive - Tenno sword can beat unbeateable.

 

3) HP, tanking and CC system rework.

a) Rework of defence - defence modules with better effect. Real tank must miltigate some damage even on high levels, even from most dangerous enemies.

b) Stricted CC - all control effects can be avoided or blocked. There isn't any "insta-AOE-knockdown" or "infinity-chain-of-stuns". Handspring for free.

 

"You just wanna faceroll Pluto/T3/Nightmare!"

I want a chance to use my sword against Grineer squad or pack of Ancients/Chargers. Without the risk of being killed on the spot/controlled to the death.

 

 

4) Stricked ammunition for ranged weapon.

Each weapon should be limited to 1-3 clips. Supply of ammunition should be significantly limited. Ammo drops must die.

On Defence/Survival Lotus give you ammo drops.

 

That's the way to balance everything without nerfs. Use your gun now, or keep ammo for future boss? Kill this crowd with rocket launcher or take down armored leader without melee battle? Choices and decisions.

 

 

5) Stricked powers.

CD's and "rage" concept - you can gain energy only for damage/kill, melee give more energy.

 

 

 

P.S. "It's too difficult, you want to destroy the fun!"

I want VIABLE melee - not just funny toy. And simple shooter with unlimited powers can't have viable melee - there is just no way. It's question of game balance - every "melee orientated game" must strict ranged weapons.

 

P.P.S. Solved problems:

1. Ranged weapon master race 50%.

а) Melee weapon is much stronger now.

 

2. Game balance 20%

a) Block/parry system is created (but not completed).

b) CC effect can be blocked (part of them cannot be blocked).

there is an ultimate block or whatever you call it..the current block can block anything..well except some rhino stomp in pvp..but pretty much everything the enemies and your fellow warframes have to offer..and a real tank should be able to tank highest levels..hell that is the weirdest thing i've heard...its not even press to win,its just,tank to win?..I mean if you can tank anything,who can kill you ehh?..in every game,every game..be it RPG,FPS,MOBA..you name it,there are always ways to take a tank down and a tank cant mitigate everything from high levels..you really need to do some work in order to tank properly..please,play some more games and don't think of tank as a walking unstopable,unbreakable force,tanking isn't just having huge pools of every shield,health and armor it is about having above average of these values and learning to exploit them by combining different methods and not just those values alone..that is tanking.and I got insanely surprised..blocking in all direction,I mean wtf,you are facing infront,with a single sword or a tiny little dagger,trying to block bullets,and wait wait wait,enemies are shooting from my back and sides,oh well,gotta flip out this 9 inch dagger and block hundreds of bullets from all directions with it,coming at me all at the same time because I demand the game to do it.also you got a chance of not being killed,build a second wind build on your sword and a stamina build on someone like ash or valkyr and whoalah..tested on level 70's they aint doing anything,well of course I am still hit by bullets from my back ==

Edited May 6, 2014 by Razer_Angel21

[Joyfulmama]

Nope. Holding block allows you to block in all directions is a nope. That is so boring

[Ionus]

I sense a nekros in this thread.

[Dopey]

Why did you even bump this thread... It's not viable anymore since we figured out that melee 2.0 is actually pretty dam good

 

some mod please lock this thread

[Methanoid]

all these additions may be shiney distractions for new players but older ones with nothing to do still have nothing to do.

[Morec0]

all these additions may be shiney distractions for new players but older ones with nothing to do still have nothing to do.

 

Says you! I've been playing for about a year now and I'm loving the game still!

[PsychedelicSnake]

Necromancyyyyyyyyy

[Tengu-musume]

all these additions may be shiney distractions for new players but older ones with nothing to do still have nothing to do.

If only I knew Warframe has such a hard cap, I wouldn't have started. But Mynki's art sucked me in and now I spend most of my time in the Arsenal screen. I know the pain.

[letir]

there is an ultimate block or whatever you call it..the current block can block anything..well except some rhino stomp in pvp..but pretty much everything the enemies and your fellow warframes have to offer..and a real tank should be able to tank highest levels..hell that is the weirdest thing i've heard...its not even press to win,its just,tank to win?..I mean if you can tank anything,who can kill you ehh?..in every game,every game..be it RPG,FPS,MOBA..you name it,there are always ways to take a tank down and a tank cant mitigate everything from high levels..you really need to do some work in order to tank properly..please,play some more games and don't think of tank as a walking unstopable,unbreakable force,tanking isn't just having huge pools of every shield,health and armor it is about having above average of these values and learning to exploit them by combining different methods and not just those values alone..that is tanking.and I got insanely surprised..blocking in all direction,I mean wtf,you are facing infront,with a single sword or a tiny little dagger,trying to block bullets,and wait wait wait,enemies are shooting from my back and sides,oh well,gotta flip out this 9 inch dagger and block hundreds of bullets from all directions with it,coming at me all at the same time because I demand the game to do it.also you got a chance of not being killed,build a second wind build on your sword and a stamina build on someone like ash or valkyr and whoalah..tested on level 70's they aint doing anything,well of course I am still hit by bullets from my back ==

Nope. Holding block allows you to block in all directions is a nope. That is so boring

I'm holding block and...

...can't attack at all.

...block only 1 direction.

...can't block rollers (surprise!).

...spend stamina on blocked strikes too.

...can't parry&counter without mod (maybe it's just me).

 

Nope. Take Iron Skin or inviz and stop spending your time on "blocking". Offense>>>>Defense in Warframe.

[Kaotyke]

why did you guys revive this dead thread?

[Methanoid]

 

beats doing the usual, typically you see 2-3 threads of the exact same subject on multiple forum subsections.

[ArmyUnit]

Well, I guess Nekros used Shadows of the Dead.

EDIT: Oh wait, someone beat me to the joke. :(

Edited May 6, 2014 by ArmyUnit

[Ionus]

I'm holding block and...

...can't attack at all.

...block only 1 direction.

...can't block rollers (surprise!).

...spend stamina on blocked strikes too.

...can't parry&counter without mod (maybe it's just me).

 

Nope. Take Iron Skin or inviz and stop spending your time on "blocking". Offense>>>>Defense in Warframe.

While you're easily taking down hordes with heavily plated armor, a rocket launcher, and a hand cannon, I'll be in the fray, racking up just as many kills with two small axes.

[Deidaku]

CURSES this thread is alive!

[Warriorrogue]

CURSES this thread is alive!

I couldn't agree more.

It wasn't even letir who revived it. Although he has commented. And I can parry without a mod, although some weapons don't seem to like it.

And blocking is there and is needed sometimes. For example, bombard rocket heading straight at you. 

People, just let this die.

Edited May 6, 2014 by Warriorrogue

[Utarious]

I couldn't agree more.

It wasn't even letir who revived it. Although he has commented. And I can parry without a mod, although some weapons don't seem to like it.

And blocking is there and is needed sometimes. For example, bombard rocket heading straight at you. 

People, just let this die.

Better off running at it sliding under it so it hits the ground.

[Cleesus]

The game relied on shooting so heavily that melee became a way to just deal with enemies if they got too close. But DE insisted on using the phrase Space Ninja, so people became confused and wondered why melee was so anemic. The truth is, they clearly had no plan, if they did they would have worked on a balance between guns and melee sooner (or from the start). If you set out to make a game that used both of these methods of player action, you would say one of the following:

 

1. Guns should be the focus, melee is just a simple tacked on concept meant for specific scenarios.

 

2. Guns and Sword should be balanced, they are both effective means of play.

 

3. Melee is the focus, guns will either not exist or be extremely weak.

 

Now had this game been melee centric from the onset, we would have a completely different game. But the over reliance of throwing together whatever they feel like, without direction has caused a rift in not only the meta, but the player base. Is Warframe about shooting? Is it about being a Ninja? Is it a loot based game like Diablo? Shouldn't there be more Co-Op interactions? Warframe is so unfocused that this late into development, it has caused uneasiness and instability.

 

If you sat down and said: I want a Co-OP based game that uses movement, melee and guns; marrying those three to create an experience like nothing else- why would you make the game rely so heavily on loot? Not just loot, the over reliance on superficial content to suppliment any real development of identiy or function has caused irreprehensible damage to the product. It was the obvious lack of planning and dishonest means of retaining players that has lead to the massive grind/RNG heavy game we have. Instead of creating experiences, DE keeps giving us new treadmills to run.

 

People are most likely aware of my disdain for Mods and my fear of stagnation or over saturation. It is founded and this update has proved it.

I agree, nice summary of events.

[ss4chris]

It be nice for the devs to go back and re-do some of the stances( how weapons are wielded and used) like the galatine and decisive judgement stance for the nikana. Its  funny  but sad running  with the galatine. Should be wielded differently..

 

 and the unsheathing with 2 hands on a katana for the decisive judgement.. Is not realistic... you dont unsheathe with 2 hands.  >.<

 

other than that 2.0 is great.

 maybe more   and intricate combos T_T Im already bored just pausing and holding between auto attacks. Make it more dmc like.

Aerial chain combos be nice. :( make it happen DE ;(

[Razer_Angel21]

I'm holding block and...

...can't attack at all.

...block only 1 direction.

...can't block rollers (surprise!).

...spend stamina on blocked strikes too.

...can't parry&counter without mod (maybe it's just me).

 

Nope. Take Iron Skin or inviz and stop spending your time on "blocking". Offense>>>>Defense in Warframe.

you can counter while parrying even without the mod..

[Warriorrogue]

you can counter while parrying even without the mod..

Just let this thread die its overdue death.

[Utarious]

you can counter while parrying even without the mod..

You can.

 

But the chance is so low without the mod it isn't even worth using.

[LegioDamnus]

Arise o' thread so freshly dead.

Through winter's cold or darkest dread.

From my cold heart i have thee beseeched.

From the depths of death now be unleashed.

 

That was a terrible necromancy poem.