Retune *all* The Frames! (11/19: Wildfire)

[Praxxor]

7 minutes ago, taiiat said:

i have no interest in entertaining unfounded doom talk.
if you want to say something will cause such a large disruption, pull your experience to prove that.

Experience in a F2P game losing its playerbase because of unpopular choices? Oh where will I ever find cases like that.

[tnccs215]

5 hours ago, Praxxor said:

Experience in a F2P game losing its playerbase because of unpopular choices? Oh where will I ever find cases like that.

every change I can remember-- robocraft, for example--- that led to sudden popularity reduction decisions led mainly by money-grabbing desires and that also unbalanced the game. This is not such decision.

Yes, warframe's player base has reduced lately: Yet it was slowly (and surely), and not the sudden drop due to SotR you seem to imply. SotR even brought back some players: Sure, they quickly left, but that's what usually happens with "small" updates.

All games have their falls. You can't expect Warframe to keep growing forever, and you can't expect it to never burn out players. Warframe is going through such a fase, and honestly, I doubt it would be not changing that would pull it out of it.

[Erl-King]

I will just leave it here:

 

[Praxxor]

5 hours ago, tnccs215 said:

every change I can remember-- robocraft, for example--- that led to sudden popularity reduction decisions led mainly by money-grabbing desires and that also unbalanced the game. This is not such decision.

Yes, warframe's player base has reduced lately: Yet it was slowly (and surely), and not the sudden drop due to SotR you seem to imply. SotR even brought back some players: Sure, they quickly left, but that's what usually happens with "small" updates.

All games have their falls. You can't expect Warframe to keep growing forever, and you can't expect it to never burn out players. Warframe is going through such a fase, and honestly, I doubt it would be not changing that would pull it out of it.

Good job at misinterpreting what i said, i don't remember saying that players were lost with SoTR. I said that a lot of people were disappointed in it

That's not even an interpretation, you have a set opinion of me that i'm wrong, so you'll just write anything to make me look wrong, thank you very much.

[SylvenStar]

Pardon me for stepping in where I'm probably not wanted, but this should be a suggestion and feedback thread, not a venomous argument over whether DE's current decisions will cause them to get overtaken by stockholders (which, in the far future, may eventually be possible, but is an absolutely ludicrous suggestion right now, bordering on conspiracy theorist levels of unnecessary)

@Praxxor I do agree with you on a couple of your points earlier: if DE continues down this path, releasing more and more content before fixing and perfecting what's already here, they will see a large player base loss, one that will definitely hurt. But we already know that, and we're not nearly at a dangerous point yet. 

I also agree with you that people will generally go for simplicity. But just because that's what they will generally choose doesn't mean that's what they'll actually enjoy the most. In my experience, I go for the simple choice just so that I can contribute when all three other members of my squads do it. That doesn't mean I enjoy it. So rather than take away the interesting gameplay so that people will get the easy choice, take away the simple option, or at least nerf it: people will still play, and most will find it more fun either away.

@tnccs215 I'm with you on most points, but you really do need to back off of the guy. Whether or not you're right in the argument is irrelevant, you've both made it clear neither of you will admit the other is right. Just stop addressing the argument, simple as that, and things can get back on topic.

[tnccs215]

10 hours ago, Praxxor said:

Good job at misinterpreting what i said, i don't remember saying that players were lost with SoTR. I said that a lot of people were disappointed in it

That's not even an interpretation, you have a set opinion of me that i'm wrong, so you'll just write anything to make me look wrong, thank you very much.

First of all, I apologize. I was indeed a bit too harsh on you, and have just finished re-reading the conversation.

However, while you think I am being prejudicial against you, fact is your central argument-- that those changes are bad because of backlash-- doesn't matter. Not in here.

Yes, I admit the devs do have to appeal to the masses sometimes-- why do you think Desecrate will shortly become a channeling ability? Why do you think the next prime weapons are the very infamous Tigris and Galantine?--, and I do admit that many people will just change to an easier frame. However, as cold as it may sound... That is irrelevant.

Well, not IRRELEVANT. After all, this is a game, and its core objective is the enjoyment of people. But they do not matter as much in here, in this thread, as they matter in the "real world".

I doubt anyone in here, including Archwizard, trully expect all this changes to one day be presented in game. We may hope, we may desire, but no one still crosses fingers when a new update comes. And why? Simply because this thread, as implied in its introduction, aims to make a Warframe from a perfect world.

This is not, however, a perfect world.

Yes, if there are too equally good proposals, the easier and less radical to implement will be added to the OP-- if it ever is. As much as it seems like a community effort, this thread is, above all else, Archwizard's opinion-- however, backlash, time constraints, coding difficulty, and budget problems are all set (mostly) aside in favor of simply improving the game. It is, in the end, as simple as that.

I apologize for jumping on your throat as I did. I should have presented my point less arrogantly and aggressively. However, that does not alter the fact that you simply have not presented a good argument to support the idea that the proposed changes are bad. Your arguments were either already refuted or, as I said, and as much as you are correct (and as much as it seems harsh), they don't really matter.

Because the priority in this thread is not player approval or cost efficiency. It is making every warframe a balanced, engaging one. And that means that there are going to be things in here that would lead to month-long DdoS attacks and complete DE bankruptcy (if people were indeed as idiotic as you seem to present them). Because the game would be better.

Simple as that.

[Praxxor]

32 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

First of all, I apologize. I was indeed a bit too harsh on you, and have just finished re-reading the conversation.

However, while you think I am being prejudicial against you, fact is your central argument-- that those changes are bad because of backlash-- doesn't matter. Not in here.

Yes, I admit the devs do have to appeal to the masses sometimes-- why do you think Desecrate will shortly become a channeling ability? Why do you think the next prime weapons are the very infamous Tigris and Galantine?--, and I do admit that many people will just change to an easier frame. However, as cold as it may sound... That is irrelevant.

Well, not IRRELEVANT. After all, this is a game, and its core objective is the enjoyment of people. But they do not matter as much in here, in this thread, as they matter in the "real world".

I doubt anyone in here, including Archwizard, trully expect all this changes to one day be presented in game. We may hope, we may desire, but no one still crosses fingers when a new update comes. And why? Simply because this thread, as implied in its introduction, aims to make a Warframe from a perfect world.

This is not, however, a perfect world.

Yes, if there are too equally good proposals, the easier and less radical to implement will be added to the OP-- if it ever is. As much as it seems like a community effort, this thread is, above all else, Archwizard's opinion-- however, backlash, time constraints, coding difficulty, and budget problems are all set (mostly) aside in favor of simply improving the game. It is, in the end, as simple as that.

I apologize for jumping on your throat as I did. I should have presented my point less arrogantly and aggressively. However, that does not alter the fact that you simply have not presented a good argument to support the idea that the proposed changes are bad. Your arguments were either already refuted or, as I said, and as much as you are correct (and as much as it seems harsh), they don't really matter.

Because the priority in this thread is not player approval or cost efficiency. It is making every warframe a balanced, engaging one. And that means that there are going to be things in here that would lead to month-long DdoS attacks and complete DE bankruptcy (if people were indeed as idiotic as you seem to present them). Because the game would be better.

Simple as that.

Well, I am not saying that they are necessarily bad, the backlash, if it were to happen, would be more of a side-effect.

To be honest I would actually prefer for all of my abilities to actually do something while sacrificing some of their spamming potential. And the entire reason why this won't work in the near future is right there in your comment, this is not a perfect world where you can make everyone instantly understand everything, people usually tend to overreact and give the "bad" more... I dunno, weight? (I also mentioned only the bad parts of this post in my initial comment, and that was overreacting). And in this case the "bad" is pretty global for the game, so everyone will be affected at some degree.

Basically what I wanted to say at the end is that there has to be a buildup to all this stuff, if it's ever considered by DE, which is not unlikely. I remember that Steve had a pool on twitter about a potential idea for "Damage 3.0". It basically meant that we'd lose some weapon power with balance changes, while XP and whatever rewards would increase, the post literally ended with something like "tougher fight but better XP", I believe that something like these energy changes would be needed to achieve the idea that Steve had there. Well the poll was completely about weapons, but such changes to weapons (especially when they were no longer supposed to "one-shot" enemies) would require the abilities to be changed too, to be more in-line with the new system. But that was somewhere around April so it might not be even relative to their plans right now. The poll ended with a majority agreeing to the idea if I remember right.

 

P.S. found the tweet 

but I'm too lazy and sleepy to edit the rest of the comment.

 

And there's no real need to be sorry about anything, I was also too harsh about OP's ideas in my initial response, it's just a human thing to react like that when you see something that might be against your ideas. I am also sorry for my rude responses.

[SylvenStar]

55 minutes ago, Praxxor said:

Basically what I wanted to say at the end is that there has to be a buildup to all this stuff, if it's ever considered by DE, which is not unlikely. I remember that Steve had a pool on twitter about a potential idea for "Damage 3.0". It basically meant that we'd lose some weapon power with balance changes, while XP and whatever rewards would increase, the post literally ended with something like "tougher fight but better XP", I believe that something like these energy changes would be needed to achieve the idea that Steve had there. Well the poll was completely about weapons, but such changes to weapons (especially when they were no longer supposed to "one-shot" enemies) would require the abilities to be changed too, to be more in-line with the new system. But that was somewhere around April so it might not be even relative to their plans right now. The poll ended with a majority agreeing to the idea if I remember right.

Now this I would like to see. I adore being able to take my vaykor hek into almost any given mission and send groups of enemies ragdolling across the room, but it is at the point where it pretty much invalidates most of my offensive warframes.

In my opinion, an ideal situation when all this is fully implemented is:

-No more hordes except against the Infested

-Tougher enemies

-Less spammable abilities

-Harder hitting/more impactful abilities

obviously there is a measure of difficulty in doing this, as with current enemy A.I., any player with enough skill can juke and dodge any given level of enemies, hence why the hordes are necessary to produce the challenge. It will require much smarter A.I. to implement well, and personally I'd like to see an interactive cover system for players. Not one that makes cover as restricting and necessary as it is in games like Mass Effect and Uncharted, but enough so that cover becomes more relevant than "Stand behind a door or wall, let shields fully recharge, go back to tanking/dodging while in the open." 

As for ability spamming, so long as they make abilities stronger if they make them less spammable, few reasonable people will complain. Sure, you can't just bounce between rooms annihilating enemies in a bloodbath (unless you're Valkyr), but with that change, you would feel those abilities.

[taiiat]

shiny Tigris and Galatine isn't 'need to do'. that's silly and not true at all.
that's all i have to say about this.

[taiiat]

shiny Tigris and Galatine isn't 'need to do'. that's silly and not true at all.
that's all i have to say about this.

1 hour ago, SylvenStar said:

Harder hitting/more impactful abilities

doing this won't really get anywhere as long as Weapons still have a stupidly huge power curve.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[13QZXXTTX]

Now this is one of those LONG post, I will have to bookmarked, will read this with care.

But I will not surely agree with you or disagree with you.

Becareful of wishful thinking, though I agree with majority of Tennos that the old Frames need plenty of loves/homing.

[Archwizard]

Not sure why that argument seems to be about things happening in "the near future" or not.

This thread's been around 2.3 years. If anything, it's a testament to patience.

As @tnccs215 pointed out, above all, the OP of this thread is mostly my opinions - occasionally acting as a bulletin board for ideas other players have had, but generally things that I think would make the game better, or a place for me to vent my frustrations until I find some kernel of constructive criticism within them. 
My opinion is not the end-all-be-all, and I've never expected any of the changes to make it into the game itself. Everyone who reads it is perfectly within their rights to disagree with anything they see, if they can do so using tactful and intelligent responses; I've seen too many decent threads devolve into "accurate vs right" fights, cyclical arguments and ad hominem attacks, the negativity and stress of which have even dragged me down with them, so I've simply been hoping this thread would function as a somewhat safe space.

@Praxxor, I recommend you take a read over the original discussions on pages 77-79 to see some of the reasoning behind the listed energy changes. To sum up as best as I can, it came about as a way to address loot caving strategies that relied too heavily on set compositions of players sitting in one spot using Fleeting Expertise and EV Trinity to spam relentlessly. The trouble we've found is that every dev change made to deal with loot caves has been a game of whack-a-mole, dealing with them as they come and impulse-nerfing any frames involved, but ultimately spawning a new composition in quick succession. The changes listed were created as one suggestion, relevant from the frames' side, on how to make changes to address such abuse of the system at its core; can't really have a Draco 2.0 if nobody can cast Radial Javelin enough times in succession to deal with the hordes, after all. If someone has to turn to using their weapon instead, that's fine - one clip from a Tonkor can't deal with enemies on all sides either. As long as ability damage itself functions as a viable alternative with consideration to its resource commodity, powers will still be relevant, and have room to be even moreso.

Edited August 4, 2016 by Archwizard

[tnccs215]

Quite honestly, the question that is imposed is not how will the community react, but how will this change affect affinity gain.

I've always considered this game to be one that isn't pay2win not because of the lack of grind, but because how simple it is to bypass it through exploitative mechanics: Current paradigm is that (at the possible exception from syndicate standing and "Collateral farming" resources, that all of us have amassed due to the constant and compulsive farming of one or another map-- there is a reason why the only decaying resource drops in the void) nothing of value can be obtained without actively farming for the specific resource, but said farming, when done right, is shockingly lucrative. The result: A game in which you are forced to expend more than time and effort: You are forced to follow a specific meta to get actually something-- a meta that creates a problem by itself by overewarding you. Hardly fun for you, and hardly healthy (for you and) for the game.

And regarding affinity gains for leveling equipment in specific, leveling up on "normal missions"-- missions excluding spy, stealth exterminates, "dracos", etc-- is a much more extenuating task than the normal resource farming. forma is pretty much a requirement, and the new system only facilitates leveling by actually allowing you to kill enemies with the weapon--not the frame, you still have to level it up to properly unlock the powers--, instead of reducing the amount of levels you have to grind.

As predictable, one form or another of cheesing becomes necessary for you to have your equipment leveled in a tolerable amount of time.

While the so called average "Draco scrub" does represent a problem with the game, the fact is that Draco was-- and is-- important for players not to die of exhaustion, and for the devs to actually have a player base.

Biggest difference I see in how resource farming is treated by the devs and how affinity-related farming (excluding syndicates, which are pretty well done) is treated, is that devs have happily accepted resource and mod farming as part of the game (desecrate becoming a channeled ability instead of simply being removed is a good example of that embrace), while they seem rather conflictuous about affinity farming. Even though leveling and Focus are extenuating things to do-- things that require, be it a Draco, be it a stealth extermination-- to complete in tolerable amounts of time, they have showed aversion to this type of farming time and time again.

Honestly, one way or another, I think they are tackling the problem wrong. As I said before, woth the exception of syndicate standing, the ways they've dealt with all forms of farming simply dont seem to be the best. Maybe they are so in an economic model, but not only that is awfully greedy, I also doubt it.

Simply creating mechanics that make farming borderline impossible (in particular the above-mentioned energy system changes), while also increasing the overall affinity (and focus) gain, and reworking the forma re-leveling system is the way to go.

You allow players to do what they want and be rewarded for it, while simultaneously ensuring they can't get more than what they should-- two things that the current implemented systems fail--miserably--to do.

Edited August 4, 2016 by tnccs215

[BlackCoMerc]

On 7/30/2016 at 5:51 PM, Archwizard said:

And it still won't improve the kit any.
Congrats kids, you managed to have your cake and eat it too; it's officially graduated from an ability you work for at the expense of all else, to an effect that you ignore completely that just passively churns out loot. Playing Nekros will be so exciting.

Sorry, I realize that being sardonic isn't a substitute for feedback, but it was the wrong choice. I'm glad that DE finally did something about Desecrate to kill the 3-spam meme, but now you have a button you'll tap once at the start of the match and then ignore (especially with Despoil paying for itself). It's frustrating because it's still RNG on top of existing RNG - a placebo effect for grinding, since you're statistically as likely to receive what you want whether or not you have a Nekros or Hydroid or Ivara or Atlas there for you (your odds of rolling a 6 on a die are the same every time the die is cast, and you have no guarantees no matter how many times you cast it).

So well said. Least I can save money by skipping his Prime Access.

I want to play the game, not the Meta...

[taiiat]

 

5 hours ago, tnccs215 said:

Current paradigm is that nothing of value can be obtained without actively farming for the specific resource, but said farming, when done right, is shockingly lucrative. The result: A game in which you are forced to expend more than time and effort: You are forced to follow a specific meta to get actually something-- a meta that creates a problem by itself by overewarding you. Hardly fun for you, and hardly healthy (for you and) for the game.

that's certainly the path of least resistance for Players that knee jerk everything and wait until the last second for any particular thing they want.
there'a a lot of User Error there, always has been.

because that 'tolerable amount of time' for most users is whatever is the lowest absolutely possible. actually playing the game without trying to break it is completely within a tolerable time scale, it has been for soooo long.
but in any discussion on these topics, the only 'tolerable' amount of time to say, Polarize a thing, is whatever the lowest it ever was is. so when you ask some Player what the appropriate amount of Gameplay time to Level a thing is, they'll say 2-4 minutes. which shows that they.... are not particularly intelligent individuals. or ones that care about the game - just looking to go as fast as possible now, so they can burn themselves out as fast as possible to leave and then complain that the game gave them what they wanted and they hated it.

just as ever it's the discrepancy to what people whine about, and what they actually want. on some subjects like this one, what they say is not what they want.

 

do we have longstanding issues(like the XP to Enemy Level Curve being too shallow, Et Cetera)? absolutely. they aren't a massive deal, however. each and all together would change the feel of things, but they won't 'change the world'.

[tnccs215]

5 hours ago, taiiat said:

 

that's certainly the path of least resistance for Players that knee jerk everything and wait until the last second for any particular thing they want.
there'a a lot of User Error there, always has been.

because that 'tolerable amount of time' for most users is whatever is the lowest absolutely possible. actually playing the game without trying to break it is completely within a tolerable time scale, it has been for soooo long.
but in any discussion on these topics, the only 'tolerable' amount of time to say, Polarize a thing, is whatever the lowest it ever was is. so when you ask some Player what the appropriate amount of Gameplay time to Level a thing is, they'll say 2-4 minutes. which shows that they.... are not particularly intelligent individuals. or ones that care about the game - just looking to go as fast as possible now, so they can burn themselves out as fast as possible to leave and then complain that the game gave them what they wanted and they hated it.

just as ever it's the discrepancy to what people whine about, and what they actually want. on some subjects like this one, what they say is not what they want.

Well, quite true. However, the fact that some less thoughtful people will ask for too much doens't mean that the game does not give enough. 3 or 4 minutes to max a weapon is ridiculously small, there is no doubt. However, without active farming-- be it in Dracos, be it in spy-- it can take hours. As usual, this game goes from an extreme to the other, ignoring the balance in the middle.

I mean, take Focus, for example. Ever since the convergence changes, I have not managed to get enough standing for one upgrade. And I play daily, with weapons and frames equiped with lenses. The last time I managed to get close to it was when I ran stealth exterminates with loki, with an affinity booster equiped.

It goes beyond the fact that it takes a lot of time: I am locked to use a form of gameplay that I utterly detest (invisicheese) in order to be able to actually get enough focus to reach rank 1 on my Zenurik efficiency node.

That is the main problem. It is true that this community can be, at the absence of better words, a bunch of spoiled children. Hell, the hate for Mag, Saryn and Valkyr changes prove that. It almost became impossible to make constructive criticism to Mag due to the utterly enormous amount of vomit thrown around by people who could not think about using other abilities beyond Polarize. However, just because such brainless criticism exists does not make the problem inexistent. 

I mean, maybe yes, maybe the problem is not a "massive deal". But I think it isnt a massive deal exactly because there are ways to bypass the lack of affinity gained on average; there are ways of quickly cheesing your way up to 5 formas; there are ways to farm, some better than others, but there are. But the fact that those are pretty much the only ways to do it in less than several hours is... bothering

[taiiat]

10 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

Well, quite true. However, the fact that some less thoughtful people will ask for too much doens't mean that the game does not give enough. 3 or 4 minutes to max a weapon is ridiculously small, there is no doubt. However, without active farming-- be it in Dracos, be it in spy-- it can take hours. As usual, this game goes from an extreme to the other, ignoring the balance in the middle.

I mean, take Focus, for example. Ever since the convergence changes, I have not managed to get enough standing for one upgrade. And I play daily, with weapons and frames equiped with lenses. The last time I managed to get close to it was when I ran stealth exterminates with loki, with an affinity booster equiped.
I am locked to use a form of gameplay that I utterly detest (Invisibility).

i could see absolutely no more than perhaps 45 minutes of just general play, with all Slots Equipped. this does presume you can find Players to do Void Defense for a bit.
since Void has Matchmaking nowadays, this is actually feasible, though unlikely ofcourse because people didn't hear in some dumb corner of this Community that it's good. when it is, and is where usual suspects and i have Leveled many things. where two 20 Wave Sessions would absolutely Level a thing. without even trying, just going to the Mission and goofing around, and as aforementoined not Unequipping Weapons to focus Affinity more towards it.

for most Gamemodes that are much less Enemy Killing oriented, i certainly agree however. but i understand at the same time, as those Gamemodes tend to be very short.

 

i've got plenty of points laying around after maxing all of the relevant (i.e. Passive) traits. i play Missions sneaky beaky like from time to time, but it's actually not where the majority of points came from, most of them actually came from goofing around in Excavation.
and you can totally play Missions sneaky beaky without being Invisible at all. it's fun. you might break the streak once or twice but that's still pretty A.OK.

[tnccs215]

12 minutes ago, taiiat said:

i could see absolutely no more than perhaps 45 minutes of just general play, with all Slots Equipped. this does presume you can find Players to do Void Defense for a bit.
since Void has Matchmaking nowadays, this is actually feasible, though unlikely ofcourse because people didn't hear in some dumb corner of this Community that it's good. when it is, and is where usual suspects and i have Leveled many things. where two 20 Wave Sessions would absolutely Level a thing. without even trying, just going to the Mission and goofing around, and as aforementoined not Unequipping Weapons to focus Affinity more towards it.

for most Gamemodes that are much less Enemy Killing oriented, i certainly agree however. but i understand at the same time, as those Gamemodes tend to be very short.

 

i've got plenty of points laying around after maxing all of the relevant (i.e. Passive) traits. i play Missions sneaky beaky like from time to time, but it's actually not where the majority of points came from, most of them actually came from goofing around in Excavation.
and you can totally play Missions sneaky beaky without being Invisible at all. it's fun. you might break the streak once or twice but that's still pretty A.OK.

That's extremely odd, because most of that goes against my personal experience. taking unranked weapons to high level missions usually takes an hour to hour-and-a-half  when with only two weapons equiped, and with Focus... well, as I said, I havent been able to unlock anything else ever since.

And there is another problem: Warframe leveling. The fact that you need to unlock and upgrade their powers as you level up, as well as their energy and health reserves, mean that leveling them up can be very, very problematic. Not only you cannot unequip anything in order to increase its affinity gain, your survivability might be incredibly hindered, to the point that it might simply be impossible to take it to high levels without a team to carry you.

Not to mention the pain that it can be to level a non-offensive frame outside of Affinity-caves. It can be relatively tolerable to level Excalibur: just activate exalted blade and kill away. But trinity... trinity was a nightmare for me to level up. 

Support frames suffer heavily from the current affinity-gain system, and I personally think this is also a point that requires tweaking.

[taiiat]

2 hours ago, tnccs215 said:

And there is another problem: Warframe leveling.

yes, Abilities being made useless until you Level it back up again was an incredibly stupid decision. when a Player starts playing the game, that means that their Warframe is useless, and even vs those Lv1 Enemies, will still feel kind've meh.

i would've reverted it immediately if i could. a monumental mistake. literally makes the game feel worse to play while adding exactly zero benefit or value to the game.
a true lose-lose.

Edited August 5, 2016 by taiiat

[tnccs215]

7 hours ago, taiiat said:

yes, Abilities being made useless until you Level it back up again was an incredibly stupid decision. when a Player starts playing the game, that means that their Warframe is useless, and even vs those Lv1 Enemies, will still feel kind've meh.

i would've reverted it immediately if i could. a monumental mistake. literally makes the game feel worse to play while adding exactly zero benefit or value to the game.
a true lose-lose.

suppose it was meant as an illusion of progression.

I fear the same might happen to weapons. The fact that you get mod points based on your MR will give you next to no bonus if they indeed remove Serration and make the weapon damage increase by its level.

Personally, I'd rather have serration removed and multishot reworked, and enemy scaling altered to adapt to it: Their health and armor curve softened up by a lot, reducing the difference between a level 5 and a level 50, but overall maintaining the effort needed to kill the latter.

[RealPandemonium]

6 hours ago, tnccs215 said:

I fear the same might happen to weapons. The fact that you get mod points based on your MR will give you next to no bonus if they indeed remove Serration and make the weapon damage increase by its level.

That won't be a problem.  Just having an element + Serration makes most guns overkill for pretty much the whole star chart.  You might have to do a mid-level planet start run, at best.

[Archwizard]

Shadows of the Dead is going to have a weighted summoning system, unlimited Duration and the ability to recast to replenish your Shadows, including healing.

... I think that's the first piece of legitimately good news I've heard about Nekros in a long time. Just a matter of whether "replenishing" consumes 100 energy each time...

Edited August 5, 2016 by Archwizard

[taiiat]

now if replenishing would also teleport your Shadows a moderate distance towards you. not completely towards you most likely, but like uh, Greedy Pull, an Ability Modifier that controls how far they can teleport each refresh to get closer to you.

[BETAOPTICS]

15 hours ago, Archwizard said:

Shadows of the Dead is going to have a weighted summoning system, unlimited Duration and the ability to recast to replenish your Shadows, including healing.

... I think that's the first piece of legitimately good news I've heard about Nekros in a long time. Just a matter of whether "replenishing" consumes 100 energy each time...

Honestly I was wondering this too when I heard of the news. I think that the recast should cost less based on the amount of resurrections you do. So if you keep casting and replenishing health, it should be quite low cost but if you have to revive your shadows, it would be full cost, and then some barriers in between depending how many replenishes and revives you'll do. I think this is a mechanic we are all hoping for, or it would be a massive nerf if the cost is 100 at all times.

[tnccs215]

Wanna ask you all your opinion on what follows, since you seem to know what you are talking about (at least more than many in this forums), and I need a second opinion:

Spoiler

The only premise that I ask you to take as truthful, even though it does demand some explanation, is the fact that each Aspect, for all intents and purposes, is pretty much half a frame. I could support this basing myself on how each one only has 3 real powers, on how either one of those other three powers is practically useless (Rage) or how two of the powers are so lackluster by themselves that they basically count has half a power (Pacify and Mend), but that would simply make this too long. And it is already going to be rather long. Fact is, should Night Form had been released as a standalone frame (with a primary ability correspondent to the buffs metamorphosis currently grants-- that is, borderline irrelevant), Pacify and Mend would be considered unacceptable; and should Day Form suffer the same fate, she would be considered a p42w frame, due to Rage's borderline uselessness, and Provokes nice, but non-gamechanging one. But I digress, let's start.

I'm awfully biased towards Equinox, I admit that. I've already started two discussions about her on this very thread--- and I apologise for the stubbornness. 

However, the odd thing is that while I love her style, theme and etc, I find her execution extremely lackluster. I've always felt that she simply didn't offer enough, and was only worth mentioning due to Rest (at the time the only of it's kind, though quickly surpassed by Ivara's quiver, Inaro's 1, Radial Blind, and etc) and Maim. However, presenting her to the community, at the exception of a few who did agreed with me, resulted in a consensus of "eh, she's fine".

It was mostly hard to pin down exactly from where did this conformity to what seemed to me a rather lackluster kit came from. However, I was able to deduce that most people are ok with it was, above all, because she's able to change both aspects. The argument implied was, above all, that since she could be two frames, it made sense that each Form was half a frame, therefore having powers that would be unacceptable should they be in a standalone frame-- and this ignoring the fact that, technically, each aspect only has 3 powers instead of the usual 4-- is acceptable on this particular case._{(to make it official, this is the argument that I will try to refute)}

That never felt right to me. Fact is, since you are dependent on Metamorphosis for the full use of her potential, and since (at the exception of Rest&Rage) no power stays active after you change form (Maim and provoke cease to exist once you use metamorphosis, and vice-versa), she is not a "Jack Frame" such as Oberon: she is not both offensive and defensive, sacrificing specialisation for versatility, but yes either Offensive-support or Defensive-support. She is not two frames, but one frame that either be one frame, or another frame. But not both.

What I mean is that a perfect allegory to explain why being able to switch aspects is not a suitable justification for each of them being lackluster is none other than Schrodinger's Cat.

As I'm sure you all know, if you put a cat in a box with a poison that has a 50% chance of killing him; the cat inside the box, for all intents and purposes, is "simultaneously" dead and alive. However, this is only so because the cat possesses the characteristic of being either dead or alive when he gets out of the box. The cat "isn't" both, but can be either.

The most important thing, however, is that, when out of the box, it's a cat. A full bodied cat. It does not make sense that the cat, when opening the box, to either be a living half of a cat, nor a dead half of a cat. Because when the cat is one, he is not the other. And vice-versa. 

A similar logic applies to Equinox: When she is one, she's not the other. For all intents and purposes-- mainly because, as said before, no Equinox power _{(except for Rest/Rage,but it's effect is almost irrelevant since Rage is barely used, and Rest effect can be redundant with Maim's stun)} exists after her metamorphosis, her other form does not exist. When the cat is alive, it isn't dead. When the cat is dead, it isn't alive.

Equinox ends up being a Schrodinger's Cat whose box is the Orbiter, and even though she possesses the ability to change her state of dead or alive, she can only be in one of them. And so, just like it does not make sense for the cat that comes out of the box to be not a full cat, but half a cat, it does not make sense for an Aspect to not be a fully capable warframe on it's own.

 

One could argue that being able to change role is a benefit by itself: the fact that you can be either one or another justify the fact that each Aspect should only be has strong has half another frame. However, there is a simple way to weaken this counter-argument:

Let's imagine a reworked, improved and actually good Oberon. In this Oberon, his offensive abilities are completely differentiated from his defensive: let's imagine Smite and Reckoning are purely offensive, while Hallowed Ground and Renewal are purely defensive. He has two powers for each role: half of him is defensive, the other half is offensive. Would it make sense, therefore, that a new "power" would be introduced, that effectively prevented you from using or benefiting from your defensive powers should you wish to use your offensive powers (and vice-versa)? A power that you would have to press to be able to use the other half of a frame's kit, and that completely nullified any lingering effect that your other abilities left?

It would not: after all, fundamental part of being one frame is being able to use your whole kit simultaneously. To prevent use of half of your kit is effectively reducing this balanced Oberon to half a frame-- either half of a defensive frame, or half of an offensive frame. But never a Jack-of-all-trades, never a full offensive frame, and never a full defensive frame. In the end, all in all, you'd always be half a frame. And there is not point in using half a frame when you have 26 other full frames to choose.

There is however, no denial that being able to change role is by itself a trait. However, as appointed above, it does not make sense for each Aspect to perform their role at half the efficiency of a specialized frame (and they are already prevented from being a Jack frame due to not being able to use the whole kit simultaneously). We can argue, therefore, that the performance of an Aspect should be between that of a full specialised frame, and of half a specialised frame-- three quarters of a frame.

Coincidentally, 3/4 is the number of powers that Equinox has left to dedicate to specialized powers, the other one being taken by metamorphosis. 

This means that each and all of those powers should be just as powerful as those of a standalone frame-- less than that and you are better of with a Jack-of-all-trades frame, who will be able to perform just as well and without the hindering of form swapping and power deactivation.-- and that there is no good justification for her overall inferior kit.-- specially since she lacks any form of fluidity and sinergy between forms, and effectively punishes you for changing.

It can also be argued that powers should not deactivate upon metamorphosis, but instead become the other Form's equivalent (this means both Pacify/Provoke and Mend/Maim should transfer. Maybe even Rest/Rage should). This is not only because Warframe is a highly reactive game and having your powers deactivated instead of morphed is more of an hindering annoyance and clunkiness than anything else; but also because, for all intents and purposes, when changing back to a form... you were always on that form. When a cat is alive, there are no events that denote the start of his livelihood, just like there are no events denoting the start of his death (ok, there are, but what I mean is that, should a cat change from alive to just dead, there would be no "preparations" for the restart, or re-end, of its life). effectively, when you become Night Form again, it is as if you wer always Night Form, and when you change to Day Form, it is as if you were always on day form. I admit, however, that I might be stretching out my argument a bit thin on this parts.

Spoiler

My idea of what Equinox was meant to be is, ironically, a balance not between offense and defense, but of specialization and pure versatility. She is not capable of the versatility that a Jack Frame is, however she possesses more specialized power to compensate. In return, she does not possesses as much specialization as a specialized frame, but possesses instead much more versatility. The fact she has one less power on her kit prevents her from being (two) true specialized frames, while the need to change aspect prevent her from being a truly  versatile. However, along the creation process, this balance was lost: the faith on the benefits of being able to change role were overestimated, leading to power kits that belong to a Jack frame _{(I believe that, if we fuse her mirror powers into one that grants both benefits, we get a trully good, but not overpowered, Jack frame. yes, perhaps Rest/Rage could use some tweaking, and Mend/Maim have it's initial damage removed, but overall it would be a purely versatile, "jack of all trades frame" (Pacify and Provoke, in particular, seem each to be half a power; and their fusion would be simply be a rather competent and unique power that would grant both supportive offense and defense without giving too much of one or another)} ;while simultaneously hindering her with the metamorphosis mechanic, which not only inherently reduces-- and heavily--  the dynamism fundamental for a versatile frame, it also sports additional characteristics that reduce even further said dynamism; In particular power deactivation instead of transformation (or even maintenance, though I think that would make metamorphosis irrelevant), and a kit that relies heavily on build-ups-- which further lock Equinox in a certain Aspect.

The result was a frame that either has half of an offensive kit or half of a defensive kit, but almost no fluidity or dynamism enough to properly use both. In fear of giving her too much, she was left with nothing-- and her only redeeming qualities are somewhat cheesie powers that, though borderline dull, prevent her from being completely obsolete.

Overall, and to my great sadness, her execution was a complete failure.  

 

Regardless, I'd like to hear any comments on this.

Finally, I'm terribly sorry for the enormous wall of text. I trully, deeply am. However, for some reason, this frame is very dear to me, and I trully want your input on this... analysis.

 

Edited August 7, 2016 by tnccs215
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