Retune *all* The Frames! (11/19: Wildfire)

[taiiat]

i skimmed pretty fast. i think the two primary things that are problematic for execution of the Warframe, is that Warframe because of how it's powercreeped in years has created an incredibly fast pace for itself, meaning every fraction of a second matters - and Metamorphosis is therefore slow.

and that the way these Abilities function, some of them only work 'correctly' with extended use, meaning you can't truly be flexible because when you switch sides your Abilities not only must be recast but also 'start over'.

 

perhaps if those two were addressed it would make the Warframe more practical. faster switching and Abilities.... going into 'stasis' when on the other side, perhaps.

at the same time that'd have to come with actually balancing some of these Abilities, some are hilariously impractical to actually use effectively, other just cheese things unnecessarily.
ex trying to protect yourself with the Pacify is laughable, and Maim is mega cheese for lower Level Missions while basically useless on it's own.
those aren't that hard to address, the Energy Cost for Enemies in outer areas should go down since the Damage protection does. and Maim dealing Percentage Damage rather than flat value, so it doesn't cheese but remains effective without becoming suddenly pointless once Enemies are at like Lv30 or some crap. so like 25 Damage + 5% of current Health or w/e.

Edited August 7, 2016 by taiiat

[tnccs215]

4 hours ago, taiiat said:

i skimmed pretty fast. i think the two primary things that are problematic for execution of the Warframe, is that Warframe because of how it's powercreeped in years has created an incredibly fast pace for itself, meaning every fraction of a second matters - and Metamorphosis is therefore slow.

and that the way these Abilities function, some of them only work 'correctly' with extended use, meaning you can't truly be flexible because when you switch sides your Abilities not only must be recast but also 'start over'.

 

perhaps if those two were addressed it would make the Warframe more practical. faster switching and Abilities.... going into 'stasis' when on the other side, perhaps.

at the same time that'd have to come with actually balancing some of these Abilities, some are hilariously impractical to actually use effectively, other just cheese things unnecessarily.
ex trying to protect yourself with the Pacify is laughable, and Maim is mega cheese for lower Level Missions while basically useless on it's own.
those aren't that hard to address, the Energy Cost for Enemies in outer areas should go down since the Damage protection does. and Maim dealing Percentage Damage rather than flat value, so it doesn't cheese but remains effective without becoming suddenly pointless once Enemies are at like Lv30 or some crap. so like 25 Damage + 5% of current Health or w/e.

Yes, I almost fully agree with you in that. If I'm right, Warframe was substantially slower at its earlier days--and even is much slower at its earlier levels--and Equinox requires more time in ability casting and uncasting than most frames. I remember that once, in a discussion, someone argued that that wasn't a problem since you could cast every power while on the air, "saving time" and protecting yourself-- though honestly I feel that is nothing but pure compensation. I've proposed multiple times for the powers to change with the frame, because metamorphosis feels like hitting a nullifiers every time you use it. Honestly, if nullifiers simply made powers to instantly go back up once they are dead, I would not have any problem with them.

Now, you mention some fixes. I agree with you on Maim, but believe in me: Simply making the energy cost on Pacify more "fair", while nice, will definitely not be enough to make it useful:Its damage reduction is not big to begin with, its range is small, and its falloff is ridiculous.

The main problem in here, to be honest, is the fall off. Base -50% damage is no shattershield, but it is not bad. However, the fact it reduces itself to -25% at the outer areas is ridiculous. That, and the fact that you have to boost yourself up to 250% strength to make it -40%. Not to mention its relatively small range for its task (which is "compensated" for the fact that you are probably running maximized range regardless, or because you simply wont use it).

The augment is the only thing that makes it worthwhile, because it grants her more than one very expensive and barely effective damage reduction, giving her additional utility that isnt reduced with range. However, it also makes her a bit more of a cheese fest, and further (and very frustratingly) locks her into Night Form. Some say it is "a trade off", but I don't think that sacrificing half of your kit so that half of your other half of your kit actually stops being irrelevant is not a fair compensation. Again, you already are prevented from using the other sides powers, so it is impossible to make it benefit from this, and to benefit from it.

If it was me, I would probably remove the damage reduction fall off, maybe boost its range a bit, and add a base slow effect that would, indeed, falloff with range. 40% at the inner circle down to 20% at the outer (Up to 80% at the inner and 40% at the outer). The Augment would invert this, removing the slow's fall off, but adding damage's. Of course, the cost per enemy would too fall off regardless.

Archwizard's idea is not bad either, however it feels a bit too simple. It is, quite literally,a simple damage reduction. Effective, yes, but not very interesting (no offense Arch).

The other problem I have with her is the cheese fest that is rest, but it seems that hard CC primary abilities are acceptable now(?). Ivara, Inaros and (as far as we know) Titanic all sport one; two of them also open enemies to do finishers, and one of them is indeed virtually equivalent to Rest, but with more range and less duration. I personally don't find Rest the most balanced ability around, but it seems that everyone, including DE, disagrees.

Again, sorry for the long ranting, and for derailing this out off Nekros.

 

 

[taiiat]

35 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

I remember that once, in a discussion, someone argued that that wasn't a problem since you could cast every power while on the air, "saving time" and protecting yourself-- though honestly I feel that is nothing but pure compensation.

Simply making the energy cost on Pacify more "fair", while nice, will definitely not be enough to make it useful: Its damage reduction is not big to begin with, its range is small, and its falloff is ridiculous.
The main problem in here, to be honest, is the fall off.

 

The other problem I have with her is the cheese fest that is rest, but it seems that hard CC primary abilities are acceptable now(?). Ivara, Inaros and (as far as we know) Titanic all sport one; two of them also open enemies to do finishers, and one of them is indeed virtually equivalent to Rest, but with more range and less duration. I personally don't find Rest the most balanced ability around, but it seems that everyone, including DE, disagrees.

i mean, Abilities you can use while flying around and stuff certainly reduces the begrudging feel of ones that take a while to cast - it absolutely is a compensation method, but since not all Abilities can be cast while flying around, it's still notable.

it certainly doesn't immediately make it excellent, but as it stands now it's basically unusable. that Augment doesn't really change that either... for a group of Enemies (what you generally want to protect yourself against), Equinox spends way more Energy to protect herself and Allies than other Warframes do to.... generally turn them off. making the Energy usage practical to use compared to other debuffs is an important goal. other stuff, idunno.

 

playing the QTE game isn't entertaining, at all. but yes, things like that are okay apparently, even though it was rallied that there was some sort of problem with Trinity being able to Kill a single Enemy with her Abilities, but it's okay for Frost to be able to do a very similar thing with just one Ability, and in an AoE. and Script Kill Mods.
lots of contradiction with that aspect. idunno.

[tnccs215]

3 minutes ago, taiiat said:

it certainly doesn't immediately make it excellent, but as it stands now it's basically unusable. that Augment doesn't really change that either... for a group of Enemies (what you generally want to protect yourself against), Equinox spends way more Energy to protect herself and Allies than other Warframes do to.... generally turn them off. making the Energy usage practical to use compared to other debuffs is an important goal.

Well, because I focused myself on the fact that, regardless of cost, the ability is bad, I did not stressed enough that I do agree with you completely: The ability is an enormous energy sink, to the point that she is the only frame in which I always run Energy Siphon and 160% efficiency. Less efficiency than that tends to not be viable enough. So yes, making it more efficient would be a priority.

We could also go another way: Instead of making the ability cost less, we could simply make energy regenerate more. That is, just like Amesha has a power that grants her in-build rage, maybe damage dealt to Equinox with Mend active could have a similar effect?

Im just brainstorming though, and there are several problems with this idea-- the biggest one being how it might just be unnecessary complication, regardless of being interesting or not.

[Azamagon]

@tnccs215

Debatting Equinox is good. As you mention, some of her skills are really meh, others are cheesy. But I wanna discuss something else that is a huge issue for Equinox:

POSITIONING:

(Metamorphosis and R&R are not included here, they are fine positioning-wise as they are)

Maim functions well: Killing in its aura means fueling it (meaning, stay close to enemies). Release it for a damage burst (meaning, still stay close to enemies). The passive bleed and stun also is all about being close to enemies.

Mend functions poorly: Killing in its aura means fueling it (meaning, stay close to enemies). Release it for a heal (meaning, now stay close to ALLIES). This makes her positioning annoying, not even mentioning the need to fuel a heal. I feel that Arch's idea is splendid to fix this part of the problem, as it rectifies the need to be close to allies for it to be of any use, and it makes the heal worthwhile (since it isn't just an instant aoe heal): Allies simply just run into the sphere and the benefit will linger on them for as long as they are there, greatly reducing the need to be close to allies upon releasing it. However, the suggested "passive" part (no shield delay) still benefits being close to allies, rather than enemies. So, it's still not perfected.

Provoke functions ok: Boost allies' killing power (stay close to allies, who in turn are close to enemies). That's fine, as it coincides with Maim (that you have to be close to enemies). But it still requires slightly odd positioning: You wanna stay closer to allies (for Provoke) or to enemies (for Maim)? Could need some rethinking.

Pacify is weird: Help you and your allies by reducing enemy output (so, you have to be close to enemies). Luckily, that's how you fuel Mend too. But it is at odds with the current Mend-release and even with the proposed Mend-passive

So, some brainstorming:

* I feel the names of P&P sounds more like they should be debuffs on enemies (Provoke sounds iike something you do "harmfully" against enemies, rather than something beneficially against allies. If P&P was both about being close to enemies, then everything except Mend is fixed positioning-wise.

* Remember how Blessing had infinite range? With instant healing? That was too much, sure, even with a "buildup" for the DR-bonus. But now Blessing is the opposite: It now has a limitted range (still huge), but no restriction on buildup. Compare that to Mend: It has a buildup AND a limitted range, the worst of both worlds. Why not skip the range of the released heal (the buildup should still require being close to enemies of course)? This would also solve her positioning with Mend, alllowing her to (just like all her other skills) be close to enemies. It would also make it feel different from Blessing: One requires buildup, one requires better positioning.
Or at least, if not skipping range: Make it an expanding wave (similar to Molecular Prime), which has no limit to its expansion range. The range starts at the aura's range, and the expansion speed could be affected either of the 3 Power stats (strength, range or duration).

Even in this version, it could function as a continously healing effect on allies (as Arch proposed). That would make it quite rewarding.

Other, not fully developed thoughts:

CHEESE CONTRA USELESSNESS:

Metamorphosis - The bonuses are meh, and they not only have a duration, but ALSO a decay. I'd do this:

* Switching is done instantly
* Switching keeps your P&P and M&M auras on, no more instant deactivation.
* Being in an Aspect gives you full bonus of that form indefinitely
* Switching Aspect instantly gives you full bonus of the new form (indefinitely) AND a duration-based bonus of your previous Aspect's bonus. This bonus only starts decaying after HALF the duration has lasted.
Example: You are in Day form, enjoying your Speed and Damage bonuses indefinitely. But now you switch to Night form. This instantly gives you access to her Shield and Armorbonus. It also keeps Day form's bonuses (Speed and Damage) for 25 seconds. After 12,5 seconds (half the duration), these Day form bonuses start decaying linearly.

I'd like to do more to it so Range also has a use for Metamorphosis, but what that is I dunno.

Its augment is nice though. Could use a bit more duration at the cost of some power, but the idea is really nice.

Rest & Rage - Rest is maybe a bit too good, Rage is just really bad.

Rage: Make it stun enemies on first cast (same "grab your head" animation as Chaos has).

Rest: I'd leave it as is for now, so Nightquinox has some offensive potential

Augment is fine I guess?

Pacify & Provoke - Both parts need a touchup; They don't fully respect her postioning, and it has no incentive to turn it OFF (other than to save energy).

Pacify: With Pacify up Equnoix debuffs enemies which she gets close to. The enemies will deal X% less damage (affected by Power Strength) for as long as they are within the aura, and up to X seconds after leaving her aura (affected by Power Duration). Each enemy debuffed costs 2 energy (affected by Power Efficiency).

Provoke: With Provoke up Equinox debuffs enemies which she gets close to. Enemies will take X% more damage (affected by Power Strength) for as long as they are within the aura, and up to X seconds after leaving her aura (affected by Power Duration). Each enemy debuffed costs 2 energy (affected by Power Efficiency).

P&P both: Upon turning off P&P, Equinox gets bonus damage (flat damage) and bonus damage reduction (also flat damage). This counts for X attacks (two seperate stacks: one for the offense, one for the defense, and amount of attacks affected by Power Duration). How much the bonuses are depends on how much energy was spent on debuffing enemies. She gets both of these stacks regardless if it was Pacify or Provoke that was deactivated.

I feel P&P needs this deactivation bonus to not feel so... "fire & forgettable". Regardless, I don't feel these changes are enough. It needs more to it (especially Provoke, as it is stepping on Rage's role far too much). Need more time to think about this.

Augment is just a no-no. Its buildup goes against her entire niche. My P&P deactivation idea could fit as the augment, but then it would leave the base ability just as bland as before :/

Mend & Maim - Bleh vs cheese.

Maim: Passive bleed now deals a mix of flat damage (smaller than now) and percentage damage (for scalability). Both affected by Power Strength.

Mend: Passively slightly slows enemies (Power Strength-alterable). Release-effect is now a long-range heal effect: FIrst, healing is split among all allies evenly. The healing is stored on allies for a max of X seconds (affected by Power Duration) and whenever the ally is hurt, it heals the ally after a very brief delay (like 0,5 seconds) the exact amount of healing from the storage which is needed (basicly giving allies uber-regen for the duration). However, there is no healing delay when the healing wave first hits the ally (then it heals immediately). As for the range: If not unlimited range, it should then start at the Mend-aura's range, but quickly expands to an unlimited range (expansion speed is affected by Power Range).

[tnccs215]

57 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

snipy

I'm in the process of criticizing BlackCoMerc's Equinox rework (and it's being quite the critic), however, I'd like to say I'm enjoying your point of views, and that I wanna hop in this thread as fast as possible to comment about the things I like and the things I don't in yours.

[Azamagon]

1 hour ago, tnccs215 said:

I'm in the process of criticizing BlackCoMerc's Equinox rework (and it's being quite the critic), however, I'd like to say I'm enjoying your point of views, and that I wanna hop in this thread as fast as possible to comment about the things I like and the things I don't in yours.

Please do, but remember: My ideas in the spoiler are insanely rough and not anywhere NEAR anything I'd call my final ideas. They are just brainstorming stuff. For example: P&P still feels insanely dull in my version. The spoiler part is just to get ideas rolling :)

[tnccs215]

1 minute ago, Azamagon said:

Please do, but remember: My ideas in the spoiler are insanely rough and not anywhere NEAR anything I'd call my final ideas. They are just brainstorming stuff. For example: P&P still feels insanely dull in my version. The spoiler part is just to get ideas rolling :)

Quite honestly, I like the twist you gave to Pacify. Though there are some rough edges and some things I'd add. I advise you to visit this thread for some of my ideas. They are not as original, but I believe in reinforcing what is good, fixing what is bad, and only ditching what is unrecoverable.

Edited August 7, 2016 by tnccs215

[BlackCoMerc]

1 hour ago, tnccs215 said:

Quite honestly, I like the twist you gave to Pacify. Though there are some rough edges and some things I'd add. I advise you to visit this thread for some of my ideas. They are not as original, but I believe in reinforcing what is good, fixing what is bad, and only ditching what is unrecoverable.

Hey. Thanks for the link. Glad to be a part of the discussion.

Feel free to copy/paste my ideas here for discussion if that pleases anyone. I would do, but am at work presently.

Thanks again.

[tnccs215]

On 8/7/2016 at 4:13 PM, Azamagon said:

@tnccs215

Debatting Equinox is good. As you mention, some of her skills are really meh, others are cheesy. But I wanna discuss something else that is a huge issue for Equinox:

POSITIONING:

(Metamorphosis and R&R are not included here, they are fine positioning-wise as they are)

Maim functions well: Killing in its aura means fueling it (meaning, stay close to enemies). Release it for a damage burst (meaning, still stay close to enemies). The passive bleed and stun also is all about being close to enemies.

Mend functions poorly: Killing in its aura means fueling it (meaning, stay close to enemies). Release it for a heal (meaning, now stay close to ALLIES). This makes her positioning annoying, not even mentioning the need to fuel a heal. I feel that Arch's idea is splendid to fix this part of the problem, as it rectifies the need to be close to allies for it to be of any use, and it makes the heal worthwhile (since it isn't just an instant aoe heal): Allies simply just run into the sphere and the benefit will linger on them for as long as they are there, greatly reducing the need to be close to allies upon releasing it. However, the suggested "passive" part (no shield delay) still benefits being close to allies, rather than enemies. So, it's still not perfected.

Provoke functions ok: Boost allies' killing power (stay close to allies, who in turn are close to enemies). That's fine, as it coincides with Maim (that you have to be close to enemies). But it still requires slightly odd positioning: You wanna stay closer to allies (for Provoke) or to enemies (for Maim)? Could need some rethinking.

Pacify is weird: Help you and your allies by reducing enemy output (so, you have to be close to enemies). Luckily, that's how you fuel Mend too. But it is at odds with the current Mend-release and even with the proposed Mend-passive

So, some brainstorming:

* I feel the names of P&P sounds more like they should be debuffs on enemies (Provoke sounds iike something you do "harmfully" against enemies, rather than something beneficially against allies. If P&P was both about being close to enemies, then everything except Mend is fixed positioning-wise.

* Remember how Blessing had infinite range? With instant healing? That was too much, sure, even with a "buildup" for the DR-bonus. But now Blessing is the opposite: It now has a limitted range (still huge), but no restriction on buildup. Compare that to Mend: It has a buildup AND a limitted range, the worst of both worlds. Why not skip the range of the released heal (the buildup should still require being close to enemies of course)? This would also solve her positioning with Mend, alllowing her to (just like all her other skills) be close to enemies. It would also make it feel different from Blessing: One requires buildup, one requires better positioning.
Or at least, if not skipping range: Make it an expanding wave (similar to Molecular Prime), which has no limit to its expansion range. The range starts at the aura's range, and the expansion speed could be affected either of the 3 Power stats (strength, range or duration).

Even in this version, it could function as a continously healing effect on allies (as Arch proposed). That would make it quite rewarding.

 

Ok, so vacation's over and I can finally sit down and write a proper response. The thing with warframe is that only on some cases you can perfectly distinguish enemy posittion from friendly. Most of the time, there is no front line not no backline. you are simply surrounded. Yes, sometimes there are times were clear distinctions exist: defense, exterminate, etc.However, in most game modes that are actually hard, it does not matter that much.

Of course, just because it doesn't matter a lot, it doesn't mean it doesn't matter at all. Prioritising being on a place with high enemy density is quite different from prioritising being where most of your allies are. So while I no longuer believe positioning should be a priority, I agree it should be taken into account.

Now, I'd also like to say that I agree with your reviews of Power Positioning, except for Provoke: you argue it works "ok", because it demands you to stay close to allies who in turn stay close to enemies. However, wouldn't that logic apply to everything, and make positioning irrelevant in the first place? As I said before, prioritising enemy density is very different from prioritising proximity to allies, and Maim asks one while Provoke asks another. You did "fixed" this by admitting that Provoke should affect enemies and, honestly, while I like find the buff unique, I have to agree. There are ways to improve this though (more on that later).

I agree that Pacify is weird though. Indeed, I remember having conversation about positioning on this very thread a while ago, and how it was positioning itself that led to Archwizard prefer Pacify to affect Allies instead of Enemies-- Localization Priority would shift from enemies to allies. Quite honestly, however-- and this is very personal-- I prefer the current idea of affecting enemies to the one of affecting allies. It makes much more sense for a power called Pacify to affect enemies, and it's a shift from the norm: most defense-suport characters are designed with closeness to allies in mind. Making one that would do the exact opposite would be a breath of fresh air. With that on mind, I would prefer for Mend to be more forgiving about postioning than the other way around.

Now, I like the idea of making Mend Unlimited Range while Blessing is instant and grants the buff. I also love Archwizard's idea. So, perhaps, the best would be a conformation of both: All allies (regardless of range) are instantly healed, and excess healing forms a dome at Equinox position at the time of Mend's deactivation. Allies that enter this dome will be healed X health/second, until the dome's health empties (or, if it also has duration, its timer expires).

Best of both worlds, while still requiring some proactiveness. Personally, I'd prefer for it to expand as a wave whose speed is affected by power duration, but I think that could screw up a bit with the dome's health. Or maybe not.

Now, focusing myself on your brainstorming:

On 8/7/2016 at 4:13 PM, Azamagon said:

 

  Hide contents

CHEESE CONTRA USELESSNESS:

Metamorphosis - The bonuses are meh, and they not only have a duration, but ALSO a decay. I'd do this:

* Switching is done instantly
* Switching keeps your P&P and M&M auras on, no more instant deactivation.
* Being in an Aspect gives you full bonus of that form indefinitely
* Switching Aspect instantly gives you full bonus of the new form (indefinitely) AND a duration-based bonus of your previous Aspect's bonus. This bonus only starts decaying after HALF the duration has lasted.
Example: You are in Day form, enjoying your Speed and Damage bonuses indefinitely. But now you switch to Night form. This instantly gives you access to her Shield and Armorbonus. It also keeps Day form's bonuses (Speed and Damage) for 25 seconds. After 12,5 seconds (half the duration), these Day form bonuses start decaying linearly.

I'd like to do more to it so Range also has a use for Metamorphosis, but what that is I dunno.

Its augment is nice though. Could use a bit more duration at the cost of some power, but the idea is really nice.

Rest & Rage - Rest is maybe a bit too good, Rage is just really bad.

Rage: Make it stun enemies on first cast (same "grab your head" animation as Chaos has).

Rest: I'd leave it as is for now, so Nightquinox has some offensive potential

Augment is fine I guess?

Pacify & Provoke - Both parts need a touchup; They don't fully respect her postioning, and it has no incentive to turn it OFF (other than to save energy).

Pacify: With Pacify up Equnoix debuffs enemies which she gets close to. The enemies will deal X% less damage (affected by Power Strength) for as long as they are within the aura, and up to X seconds after leaving her aura (affected by Power Duration). Each enemy debuffed costs 2 energy (affected by Power Efficiency).

Provoke: With Provoke up Equinox debuffs enemies which she gets close to. Enemies will take X% more damage (affected by Power Strength) for as long as they are within the aura, and up to X seconds after leaving her aura (affected by Power Duration). Each enemy debuffed costs 2 energy (affected by Power Efficiency).

P&P both: Upon turning off P&P, Equinox gets bonus damage (flat damage) and bonus damage reduction (also flat damage). This counts for X attacks (two seperate stacks: one for the offense, one for the defense, and amount of attacks affected by Power Duration). How much the bonuses are depends on how much energy was spent on debuffing enemies. She gets both of these stacks regardless if it was Pacify or Provoke that was deactivated.

I feel P&P needs this deactivation bonus to not feel so... "fire & forgettable". Regardless, I don't feel these changes are enough. It needs more to it (especially Provoke, as it is stepping on Rage's role far too much). Need more time to think about this.

Augment is just a no-no. Its buildup goes against her entire niche. My P&P deactivation idea could fit as the augment, but then it would leave the base ability just as bland as before :/

Mend & Maim - Bleh vs cheese.

Maim: Passive bleed now deals a mix of flat damage (smaller than now) and percentage damage (for scalability). Both affected by Power Strength.

Mend: Passively slightly slows enemies (Power Strength-alterable). Release-effect is now a long-range heal effect: FIrst, healing is split among all allies evenly. The healing is stored on allies for a max of X seconds (affected by Power Duration) and whenever the ally is hurt, it heals the ally after a very brief delay (like 0,5 seconds) the exact amount of healing from the storage which is needed (basicly giving allies uber-regen for the duration). However, there is no healing delay when the healing wave first hits the ally (then it heals immediately). As for the range: If not unlimited range, it should then start at the Mend-aura's range, but quickly expands to an unlimited range (expansion speed is affected by Power Range).

 

I wanna talk mainly about Rage, Provoke, and Pacify (already gave you my biggest input on mend, and I do like your propositions to Metamorphosis buff's, though I think those aren't the priority as of the moment).

You've stated how you think Provoke should apply not to allies, but to enemies, and justified that with positioning. You also stated your fear that it would be stepping into Rage's toes. And, indeed, it is.

However, maybe that should be considered: Provoke stepping into Rage's toes to the point of stepping into its shoes, and vice-versa.

That is, Rage's reticule based cast is great for distance support, and since both Provoke and Maim are Auras-- and that Day form is mainly offensive-- it makes Provoke and Maim more suitable for offense, and Rage for support.

My idea (also just brainstorming, mind you), is that maybe we could borrow some of Amesha's mechanics: Rage, instead of affecting enemies, grants allies in which it's casted upon the power strength bonus that Provoke currently gives (or more. base 20% is really not that much). In case no allie is near the reticule, Rage is casted upon Equinox herself. 

Provoke's positioning problem is fixed, and rage becomes more than a staple. win-win. (however, I'd like comments on this).

---

Regarding Pacify: First, I have to compliment your idea to make enemies being affected by entrance, not by seconds spend in range, and the idea of making it linger on them for some time. It is a very simple change, but that completely alters Pacify's performance both as a personal buffer, and as a team-support power (through enemy debuffing).

If you visited the thread I linked, you might have seen my idea for Pacify: a rather simple one, more based around numerical improvements and with the added utility (because Pacify (and Provoke) trully needs more utility) "stolen" from the current Augment-- but with counter cheese measures.

I proposed the removal of the damage multiplier falloff, a base range increase from 16 to 20 meters (though, debatable), a slight improvement of the multiplier from x0.5 to x0.4, an innate 40% slow effect that would falloff over distance much like the current damage multiplier does (that is, with no mods and a Rank 3 Pacify, Enemies would suffer from up to 40% slow when closest to Equinox, down to 20% slow when at the outskirts of the aura), and an overall reduction to energy cost per enemy (and perhaps some falloff on it too, since you still have smaller benefits applied to those who are the furthest).

Augment would simply invert the falloff, basically making it work like it does now (but without the cringe inducing necessity for a build up)

I would both like opinions on this, as well as finding a way to mixing this and your rather original ideas, without making it a cheese fest-- my best idea is that the slow is only applied to enemies still inside the aura. Once they leave, only the timed multiplier is applied. 

---

Your idea for Mend goes against my Pacify's, however it is understandable. It is an added benefit, and making a slow effect a drain makes somewhat sense. However, while a slow effect fits a power called Pacify like a glove, it trully makes no sense for one called Mend-- perhaps I'm using semantics to justify an arrogant preference for my own ideas, but I honestly trully think it fits Pacify much more. 

Indeed, I would be more than satisfied for Mend to be what I mentioned above-- a fusion of your and Archwizard's ideas.

---

 

I think that is pretty much it. Looking forward for any comment.

Edited August 9, 2016 by tnccs215
Mend, not blessing! my mistake

[Azamagon]

17 hours ago, tnccs215 said:

1) Ok, so vacation's over and I can finally sit down and write a proper response. The thing with warframe is that only on some cases you can perfectly distinguish enemy posittion from friendly. Most of the time, there is no front line not no backline. you are simply surrounded. Yes, sometimes there are times were clear distinctions exist: defense, exterminate, etc.However, in most game modes that are actually hard, it does not matter that much.

Of course, just because it doesn't matter a lot, it doesn't mean it doesn't matter at all. Prioritising being on a place with high enemy density is quite different from prioritising being where most of your allies are. So while I no longuer believe positioning should be a priority, I agree it should be taken into account.

2) Now, I'd also like to say that I agree with your reviews of Power Positioning, except for Provoke: you argue it works "ok", because it demands you to stay close to allies who in turn stay close to enemies. However, wouldn't that logic apply to everything, and make positioning irrelevant in the first place? As I said before, prioritising enemy density is very different from prioritising proximity to allies, and Maim asks one while Provoke asks another. You did "fixed" this by admitting that Provoke should affect enemies and, honestly, while I like find the buff unique, I have to agree. There are ways to improve this though (more on that later).

3) I agree that Pacify is weird though. Indeed, I remember having conversation about positioning on this very thread a while ago, and how it was positioning itself that led to Archwizard prefer Pacify to affect Allies instead of Enemies-- Localization Priority would shift from enemies to allies. Quite honestly, however-- and this is very personal-- I prefer the current idea of affecting enemies to the one of affecting allies. It makes much more sense for a power called Pacify to affect enemies, and it's a shift from the norm: most defense-suport characters are designed with closeness to allies in mind. Making one that would do the exact opposite would be a breath of fresh air. 

4) With that on mind, I would prefer for Blessing to be more forgiving about postioning than the other way around.

5) Now, I like the idea of making Mend Unlimited Range while Blessing is instant and grants the buff. I also love Archwizard's idea. So, perhaps, the best would be a conformation of both: All allies (regardless of range) are instantly healed, and excess healing forms a dome at Equinox position at the time of Mend's deactivation. Allies that enter this dome will be healed X health/second, until the dome's health empties (or, if it also has duration, its timer expires).

Best of both worlds, while still requiring some proactiveness. Personally, I'd prefer for it to expand as a wave whose speed is affected by power duration, but I think that could screw up a bit with the dome's health. Or maybe not.

Now, focusing myself on your brainstorming:

I wanna talk mainly about Rage, Provoke, and Pacify (already gave you my biggest input on mend, and I do like your propositions to Metamorphosis buff's, though I think those aren't the priority as of the moment).

6) You've stated how you think Provoke should apply not to allies, but to enemies, and justified that with positioning. You also stated your fear that it would be stepping into Rage's toes. And, indeed, it is.

However, maybe that should be considered: Provoke stepping into Rage's toes to the point of stepping into its shoes, and vice-versa.

That is, Rage's reticule based cast is great for distance support, and since both Provoke and Maim are Auras-- and that Day form is mainly offensive-- it makes Provoke and Maim more suitable for offense, and Rage for support.

My idea (also just brainstorming, mind you), is that maybe we could borrow some of Amesha's mechanics: Rage, instead of affecting enemies, grants allies in which it's casted upon the power strength bonus that Provoke currently gives (or more. base 20% is really not that much). In case no allie is near the reticule, Rage is casted upon Equinox herself. 

Provoke's positioning problem is fixed, and rage becomes more than a staple. win-win. (however, I'd like comments on this).

---

7) Regarding Pacify: First, I have to compliment your idea to make enemies being affected by entrance, not by seconds spend in range, and the idea of making it linger on them for some time. It is a very simple change, but that completely alters Pacify's performance both as a personal buffer, and as a team-support power (through enemy debuffing).

8) If you visited the thread I linked, you might have seen my idea for Pacify: a rather simple one, more based around numerical improvements and with the added utility (because Pacify (and Provoke) trully needs more utility) "stolen" from the current Augment-- but with counter cheese measures.

I proposed the removal of the damage multiplier falloff, a base range increase from 16 to 20 meters (though, debatable), a slight improvement of the multiplier from x0.5 to x0.4, an innate 40% slow effect that would falloff over distance much like the current damage multiplier does (that is, with no mods and a Rank 3 Pacify, Enemies would suffer from up to 40% slow when closest to Equinox, down to 20% slow when at the outskirts of the aura), and an overall reduction to energy cost per enemy (and perhaps some falloff on it too, since you still have smaller benefits applied to those who are the furthest).

Augment would simply invert the falloff, basically making it work like it does now (but without the cringe inducing necessity for a build up)

I would both like opinions on this, as well as finding a way to mixing this and your rather original ideas, without making it a cheese fest-- my best idea is that the slow is only applied to enemies still inside the aura. Once they leave, only the timed multiplier is applied. 

---

9) Your idea for Mend goes against my Pacify's, however it is understandable. It is an added benefit, and making a slow effect a drain makes somewhat sense. However, while a slow effect fits a power called Pacify like a glove, it trully makes no sense for one called Mend-- perhaps I'm using semantics to justify an arrogant preference for my own ideas, but I honestly trully think it fits Pacify much more. 

Indeed, I would be more than satisfied for Mend to be what I mentioned above-- a fusion of your and Archwizard's ideas.

---

 

I think that is pretty much it. Looking forward for any comment.

1) Good point. It might just be me over-thinking her positioning issues, but I will agreed with your point of view here: Not the most important, but not something to ignore either.

2) Well by Provoke, I meant SORT of ok. Not great or anything, just sort of ok. Provoke requiring you to be close to allies who are close to enemies works in a purely supportive way: You are close to allies, then they get its benefits. Contrast that to Mend. It works kind of the same, yet not at all. Mend has no benefit being close to allies at first, but then it has no benefits (upon release) being close to enemies. The big difference between Provoke and Mend: Provoke only really requires you to constantly follow your allies to benefit them (cuz them being close to enemies might not be necessary for them to benefit from the P.Str, as they might also have very long range powers), Mend requires shifting your proximity back and forth between enemies and allies, and that is a problem if your allies have long range abilities etc. It's a bit nitpicky, yes, but it makes quite the difference in practice.

And still so, yes, that is why I (also) changed Provoke to debuff enemies: Then Equinox is all about being close to enemies (which I have more ideas about, but more to that later)

3) If one could make it so that Dayquinox's powers would function at best by being close to enemies and Nightquinox's powers would function at best just by being close to allies, then his PoV makes total sense: Day is aggressive and thus should be close to enemies, Night is defensive and thus should be close to allies. But considering how her abilities are designed, being VERY similar in both aspects mechanically, yet different in endresult, when shifting from one aspect to the other, it would be a very difficult thing to do. And how the kit is now, it doesn't work: Provoke is at odds with Maim, while Mend's release is at odds with Pacify.

However, this leads me to an idea in regards to her positioning: What if her powers could function just fine wether she is close to enemies OR allies? I will list my brainstorming ideas for that further down, in a bullet list.

4) Why? Blessing is instant both in healing and its buff, requiring no buildup whatsoever right now. Why should range be easier for it? Mend has a (potentially) long buildup, it deserves a "no range restriction" more than Blessing does.

5) I like that iteration of Mend, nice :) Wether the dome expands or not doesn't matter to me.

6) That's ... a really, really good idea! Swapping their effects entirely solves a lot indeed (Rage being a target-area ally-buffer and Provoke being an enemy-debuffing aura). This gives me more ideas for my bullet list further down. That said, I'd make it affect allies in the casted area, and to ALWAYS benefit Equinox herself, no matter where she casts it. She doesn't benefit from Power Strength supermuch anyway, so I don't see why not?
Note that I still was rather fond of giving Rage some form of ministun (more to that in the bullet-list), but considering Maim already has a stun, it's not all too important. Just something I thought was neat :P

7) Thanks :) It would also feel more like a DIRECT counterpart to (my revamped) Provoke: Both requires proximity to enemies, benefitting the team in different ways (more akin to how R&R and M&M functions), in contrast to its current iteration: Provoke wants you to be close to allies (in her AGGRESSIVE form) while Pacify wants you to be close to enemies (in her DEFENSIVE form). It currently just makes no sense, neither as true mechanical twins, nor positioning-thematically.

8) Yes, I saw it, and I really like the idea of giving Pacify a slow-effect (if nothing else, as you said yourself, it fits PERFECTLY with its name :P)
The only real problem I have with it is: What would Provoke's counterpart to Pacify's slow-effect be? If Provoke's effects were to be swapped with Rage, would it then also do the enemy movespeed increase thing? If so, then it's damage amp needs to be quite high to be worthwhile. If nothing extra were to be added to Provoke, the powers would not be fair to one another: Pacify reduces enemy damage output and slows them down, Provoke would only increases enemy damage intake and nothing else. This could need some more thought.
(Note: Don't get me wrong here, Pacify having a slow-effect fits so perfectly that I want your idea to be there! I just feel Provoke needs more too, that's all).

As for the augment swapping the effects: I'd rather the augment to be completely changed. It was an incredibly poorly voted on choice from the Design Council :(

Which leads me to something you didn't directly comment on: How did you like my deactivation bonus on P&P? I wouild like that to be part of the ability itself from the getgo (as I like when "fire & forget" abilities have some reason to be turned off too, more than just for saving energy), but if Provoke were to get some extra utility on it as a counterpart to Pacify's slow, then I would be totally fine with my deactivation bonus turning into P&P's augment.
(Note: My inspiration for the deactivation bonus is from the ability itself: When you turn it off, the aura doesn't just stop, its aura-indicator visually shrinks in to Equinox, like if she were to "absorb" it back again. And that fits with some part of Yin & Yang having some kind of a recycling / circle of life motife (afaik at least :P))

About the mixing of our ideas: Your idea sounds great: You have my energy-cost and debuff-application-ideas (only costs energy one time when they enter + debuff lingers a while after they leave the area), and the slowdown is simply a range-dynamical part of the aura (Closer to Equinox = they slow more. Leave the aura = No more slow). Sounds great to me :)

9) No, you are perfectly right here, it is nou just nitpicking (Slow-effect on an ability called Mend is indeed weird). The only reason I suggested it was because I wanted Mend's passive ongoing effect to be something that wanted you to, once again, be close to enemies. This is a case of where I might've pressed my "positioning" agenda too hard that I forgot that it doesn't even fit, hehe.
Now I'm contemplating what passive part Mend should have instead, which I would PREFER to be something negative on enemies (even if I do indeed like Arch's idea of making it reduce/remove shieldregen delay for allies), and what Provoke's added utility would be which fits as a counterpart to Pacify's slow. This leads me to two final things:

The names of the abilities:
The very names of Equinox's abilities makes them a bit odd, and I find several problems with them:
1) Names and who it should affect - Pacify, Provoke, Rest and Rage. All four sound like they all should be altering the states of enemies, with R&R having the possibility of actually being something beneficial on allies, as well. So that leads to some confusion to WHOM they really ought to affect in the first place. Mend and Maim are more clear on this (Mend is good for allies, Maim is bad for enemies). But all that also lends itself to being (potentially) a part of her positioning issues, imo. They are simply not clear enough on whom they should be affecting, nor then where she should be on the battlefield because of this.

2) Name similarities - Pacify is somewhat similar to Rest, while Provoke is also somewhat similar to Rage: Both Pacify and Rest sounds like you are tranquilizing someone's mind, while Provoke and Rage sounds like you are enraging someone's mind. This leads to another problem: It makes it a bit hard to differentiate what each ability actually should be doing. It's far more clear with Mend and Maim - One is to heal, one is to harm. But the other four are just so hard to distinguish to make them feel unique from one another. Pacify could just as well be the ability which makes enemies go to sleep. Provoke could just as well be the ability which makes enemies take more damage and run faster. It could actually be a good thing to change some of the names ENTIRELY. Maybe this is just an issue for me though *shrugs*

Anywho, on to the very final thing, my bullet-list:

How I'd further change the abilities (note: still just brainstorming!):

Before telling the changes, here is an important note:

Equinox's abilities should make her positioning in the field either make her set in one place (like: always be near enemies), or adapt depending on the aspect (like: Day is near enemies, Night is near allies), or versatile (like: being close to allies or enemies both function well, with some favoring more one than the other here and there).
I have right now gone for the last idea; allowing her a versatile positioning, but even so it still leans more towards the first idea (being close to enemies).

Metamorphosis
* Switching is done instantly
* Switching keeps your P&P and M&M auras on (swapping their effects of course), no more instant deactivation.
* Being in an Aspect gives you full bonus of that form indefinitely
* Switching Aspect instantly gives you full bonus of the new form (indefinitely) AND a duration-based bonus of your previous Aspect's bonus. This bonus only starts decaying after HALF the duration has lasted.
Example: You are in Day form, enjoying your Speed and Damage bonuses indefinitely. But now you switch to Night form. This instantly gives you access to her Shield and Armorbonus. It also keeps Day form's bonuses (Speed and Damage) for 25 seconds. After 12,5 seconds (half the duration), these Day form bonuses start decaying linearly.
* Augment's duration doubled, but the attackpower of the "clone" is halfed

Still thinking of what effect to add to it so Power Range also matters for the skill.


Rest
* Remains the same as a targetted AoE still, and makes enemies fall asleep as well
* In addition, if allies are caught in the AoE, they get a Rest-bonus, which makes the ally regenerate health whenever it is not doing heavy movement (walking, crouching, wall-clinging and being still thus allows you to heal). Equinox always gets the Rest-bonus, regardless where she casts it.
* This means, its power is best used against enemies, but has a minor bonus to allies too.

Rage
* Remains the same as a targetted AoE still, causes enemies to run faster and suffer more damage taken, but also briefly staggers the enemy upon cast (or upon spread, with the augment).
* In addition, if allies are caught in the AoE, they get a Rage-bonus, which increases their Power Strength (and maybe something else too: Minor energyregen? Movespeed? Weapondamage?) by a moderate amount. Equinox always gets the Rage-bonus, regardless where she casts it.
* This means, its power is best used on allies, but has a minor bonus when cast on enemies too.

* Augment remains the same

Pacify
* Debuffs enemies in a diverse way: The enemies get debuffed if they enter the aura, or if the enemies attack an ally who is inside the aura.
* The debuff causes enemies to deal X% less damage (affected by Power Strength) for as long as they are within the aura, and up to X seconds after leaving her aura (affected by Power Duration). Each enemy debuffed costs her 3 energy (affected by Power Efficiency).
* The debuff also causes enemies to be slowed down. This effect is stronger the closer they are to Eqiunox while the aura is on. The slowdown also lingers when they leave aura, but then at minimal effect.

Provoke
* Debuffs enemies in a diverse way: The enemies get debuffed if they enter the aura, or if an ally inside the aura attacks the enemy
* The debuff causes enemies to take X% more damage (affected by Power Strength) for as long as the are within the aura, and up to X seconds after leaving her aura (affected by Power Duration). Each enemy debuffed costs 3 energy (affected by Power Efficiency).
* The debuff also causes enemies to miss more. This effect is stronger the closer they are to Eqiunox while the aura is on. The miss-effect also lingers when they leave aura, but then at minimal effect.

Miss-effect might seem odd, but it has its thoughts:
1) Note that Pacify slows enemies down. And slowed enemies are easier for you and your team to hit. Provoke's counterpart, making enemies miss you more, is thus the direct opposite of that :)
2) Also, a Provoked enemy might not be at his full senses (as he is angry). Being angry can mean you focus less and thus miss more.
Personally, I think it really fits.

* Augment revamped: Upon turning off P&P, Equinox gets bonus damage (flat damage) and bonus damage reduction (also flat damage). This counts for X attacks (two seperate stacks: one for the offense, one for the defense, and amount of attacks affected by Power Duration). How much the bonuses are depends on how much energy was spent on debuffing enemies. She gets both of these stacks regardless if it was Pacify or Provoke that was deactivated.

Maim
* Passively still causes enemies in the aura to become stunned and bleed. They suffer very minor flat damage and moderate percentage damage based on their max health.
* Release effect is the same as now.
* Storage is now also fueled by her and her allies' energy useage (multiplied by X), allowing her to stay close to allies, out of enemy range and still gain some fuel for the nuke

Mend
* Passively causes enemies in the aura to heal the shields or health of those who they shoot at: The healing is a very minor flat value and a moderate percentage healing of shields/health based on the max shields/health of the one they attack (always over 6 seconds, just like the bleed) (Note: The healing, flat value aside, is never more than what they hurt their target). Only applies ONE time per enemy attack (unless Mend is reactivated of course). This healing shot can NEVER proc a status-effect (this is an "equivalent" to the Maim's stun-effect)
* Release effect instantly heals all allies without range restrictions and leaves the remaining unused health (if any) as a dome which continuously heals allies who remain inside it. Size of the dome is the same as the aura's size.
* Storage is now also fueled by her and her allies' energy useage (multiplied by X), allowing her to stay close to allies, out of enemy range and still gain some fuel for the heal

The point of Mend's passive is to 1) Make it have an effect which benefits Equinox and her team by her being close to enemies and 2) still have an effect which works along with its "healing" name. While its actual damage mitigation (the healing) is maybe not all too powerful, it's strength lies more in the status-blocking effect. This can turn out to be a very powerful counter to hardhitting enemies whos status-effects can be very dangerous (Like Ballistas).

Final note: I'm still not fully happy with these ideas, mainly with Rest and Rage bothering me a bit in regards to what they should do to allies and enemies, and Mend's passive feels a bit weak. But I'm quite happy with P&P :)

[tnccs215]

Just spent 2.5 hours writing a suitable answer to @Azamagon's post, only to watch it go down the drain by accidentally pressing backspace without the editor opened. Just wanted to express the frustration.

I'll try to write it again, with more details, but it's 5 am and I need some sleep.

 

[taiiat]

20 hours ago, tnccs215 said:

only to watch it go down the drain by accidentally pressing backspace without the editor opened. Just wanted to express the frustration.

(reasons why i copy posts i'm writing from time to time, or just write them in N[P]++ if i'm making something seriously long)

Edited August 10, 2016 by taiiat

[tnccs215]

11 hours ago, taiiat said:

(reasons why i copy posts i'm writing from time to time, or just write them in N++ if i'm making something seriously long)

I always forget to do that.

@Azamagon, It's gonna be a long day, so I wont be able to write anything substantial for another five or six hours. So, I want to say this:

1)We are disregarding some important factors in regards to localization: Even in their current state, all powers benefit, in one way or another, from proximity to allies: Mend and Provoke are the obvious ones, but Pacify and Maim benefit too: Maim (and Mend) because friendly kills also contribute to the stored hp, and Pacify because there is no point in reducing enemy damage if said enemies aren't near enough to shoot any allies (except yourself-- but than again, if Pacify was simply meant to be a personal tanking ability, it shouldn't work like this).

With this is mind, the true problem may be, not the fact that different powers demand different positioning, but how unforgiving some powers are with their demands. Both Provoke and Pacify feature an irrealistically small range, and Pacify as the added bonus of having the fall-off. The result is that you won't buff any teammate because no teammate stands in a 23 meter radius for too long, or that you won't debuff enemies because enemies themselves are spread just as thin across the map as your allies.

Fortunately, you've stepped on a solution: The timed effect proposed to pacify works incredibly well, and it can be used in Provoke as well.

2)In 4), I meant Mend, not Blessing. Sorry about that.

3) Thanks for enumerating my post.

4)I like your proposed allied effects for R&R

And more stuff. I'll write more soon(tm)

 

[Aquasurge]

may i suggest for mend to work with the affinity radius?

[BETAOPTICS]

Actually in Tenno Clock #145, Drew, Xenogelion and Thorne970 were having an interesting discussion about Equinox as a Warframe. Do you guys remember what was the original selling point of Equinox? Her shifts trough different forms at will, utilizing all of her skills effectively. As taiiat mentioned above and I have to agree, that her/his execution isn't really all too good. One major reason as was mentioned was the nature of her/his 1st ability, how stunted and clumsy it is midst the fast phased battle that the gameplay has.

Another problem, which the above mentioned crew members brought up with her/his kit is that every time you switch forms, your previous abilities cancel out. What the crew in that episode was talking about would be the possibility of her having fading effects and buffs from the other form, so when you would switch form your abilities would exist but with diminishing returns and for a period of time. Effectively should one keep a consistent and well timed rotation, you'd be able to rotate between both of her 4th abilities as well as other passives she has at the same time. Of course to do this it would require that first ability to be more effective, or then the fading buffs would have to take long enough so you'd have enough time to micro-manage your shifts without constantly having to mash all ability keys.

What about balance? Well you have to consider that not only would it be extremely time intensive to juggle around with all the timers, but more than that it would be costly energy consumption wise. So the player would really have to think what abilities, how often and when to activate. The boon? The ability for Equinox having very engaging and interesting playstyle and gameplay mechanics, almost like a make-or-break sort of Warframe where basic players would do a decent-ish job with her/him, but an excellent master would really bring life into her/his kit by having skillful management of timing and energy.

What do you guys think? Too much? Too good? Or perhaps they were onto something with that concept?

[tnccs215]

8 hours ago, BETAOPTICS said:

Actually in Tenno Clock #145, Drew, Xenogelion and Thorne970 were having an interesting discussion about Equinox as a Warframe. Do you guys remember what was the original selling point of Equinox? Her shifts trough different forms at will, utilizing all of her skills effectively. As taiiat mentioned above and I have to agree, that her/his execution isn't really all too good. One major reason as was mentioned was the nature of her/his 1st ability, how stunted and clumsy it is midst the fast phased battle that the gameplay has.

Another problem, which the above mentioned crew members brought up with her/his kit is that every time you switch forms, your previous abilities cancel out. What the crew in that episode was talking about would be the possibility of her having fading effects and buffs from the other form, so when you would switch form your abilities would exist but with diminishing returns and for a period of time. Effectively should one keep a consistent and well timed rotation, you'd be able to rotate between both of her 4th abilities as well as other passives she has at the same time. Of course to do this it would require that first ability to be more effective, or then the fading buffs would have to take long enough so you'd have enough time to micro-manage your shifts without constantly having to mash all ability keys.

What about balance? Well you have to consider that not only would it be extremely time intensive to juggle around with all the timers, but more than that it would be costly energy consumption wise. So the player would really have to think what abilities, how often and when to activate. The boon? The ability for Equinox having very engaging and interesting playstyle and gameplay mechanics, almost like a make-or-break sort of Warframe where basic players would do a decent-ish job with her/him, but an excellent master would really bring life into her/his kit by having skillful management of timing and energy.

What do you guys think? Too much? Too good? Or perhaps they were onto something with that concept?

I have to go watch that first, and to check what are all their ideas. However, by the sound of it, I think her abilities would have to be something worthwhile to begin with; and unfortunately, they are not.

one could argue that that ability to rotate would make them worthwhile but... I dint believe so. At least, it would only make them "not useless", because you'd be able to (kinda) have both effects up at the same time.

It wouldn't feel like you were increasing your power, it would feel like you are simply compensating for the lack of it.

Essentially, if I get it correctly, they want to make every ability sort of a metamorphosis buff. But Metamorphosis buffs already don't work for several reasons-- if the chunkiness' (i.e necessity to reactivate your every ability) continues, it will still not be comfortable to use, and more than time consuming, it would make you a sitting duck; and just like metamorphosis buffs, if the powers are worthless, there still is no point to care for them, even if they exist.

And ironically, the only powers that could work as described are Pacify and Provoke. I truly can't see how Mend&Maim could work without screwing with one another. How would you deactivate Mend without activating/deactivating Maim and vice-versa?

I don't know. Perhaps I'm too attached to my views but, with my experience, if someone came to me and said "hey! Now you can kinda have Pacify effects linguer on for a bit after you switch to day form!" I'd probably say "that's cool. Too bad it's worthless to begin with."

[EDIT]:Btw, I got told in another thread that their idea was to make powers to continue their existence after Metamorphosis, and only deactivate when you activated their mirror version. Honestly, if that was so, I could already see the new meta: Peaceful Provocation, start in Night Form. Max Slow effect, hop into day form. Activate Maim. Profit.

All the cheese everyday.

As I stated before, I would prefer Equinox to be fluid between her forms than to be "synergetic". Metamorphosis working not only as a dynamism provider, but also as a limiting factor. Her synergy would come not from being able to use all powers at once, but from being able to use the right power at the right time.

Currently, however, she does neither.

 

Edited August 10, 2016 by tnccs215

[BETAOPTICS]

12 hours ago, tnccs215 said:

I have to go watch that first, and to check what are all their ideas. However, by the sound of it, I think her abilities would have to be something worthwhile to begin with; and unfortunately, they are not.

one could argue that that ability to rotate would make them worthwhile but... I dint believe so. At least, it would only make them "not useless", because you'd be able to (kinda) have both effects up at the same time.

It wouldn't feel like you were increasing your power, it would feel like you are simply compensating for the lack of it.

Essentially, if I get it correctly, they want to make every ability sort of a metamorphosis buff. But Metamorphosis buffs already don't work for several reasons-- if the chunkiness' (i.e necessity to reactivate your every ability) continues, it will still not be comfortable to use, and more than time consuming, it would make you a sitting duck; and just like metamorphosis buffs, if the powers are worthless, there still is no point to care for them, even if they exist.

And ironically, the only powers that could work as described are Pacify and Provoke. I truly can't see how Mend&Maim could work without screwing with one another. How would you deactivate Mend without activating/deactivating Maim and vice-versa?

I don't know. Perhaps I'm too attached to my views but, with my experience, if someone came to me and said "hey! Now you can kinda have Pacify effects linguer on for a bit after you switch to day form!" I'd probably say "that's cool. Too bad it's worthless to begin with."

[EDIT]:Btw, I got told in another thread that their idea was to make powers to continue their existence after Metamorphosis, and only deactivate when you activated their mirror version. Honestly, if that was so, I could already see the new meta: Peaceful Provocation, start in Night Form. Max Slow effect, hop into day form. Activate Maim. Profit.

All the cheese everyday.

As I stated before, I would prefer Equinox to be fluid between her forms than to be "synergetic". Metamorphosis working not only as a dynamism provider, but also as a limiting factor. Her synergy would come not from being able to use all powers at once, but from being able to use the right power at the right time.

Currently, however, she does neither.

 

Ideally I agree. I mean for the most part it was merely an interesting suggestion they were talking about. But I do recall initially when Equinox was first decided as concept to have the kind of swift but fluid flow and widely different and clear distinct uses, with switches between forms at a seconds whim. When they did then release Equinox, I felt disappointment, a missed opportunity to turn out something great and this iteration is a washed out version to all the wild imaginations I had created so far. Sure, it rarely pans out the way we fantasize, and they are called fantasies for a reason, but I do agree that his gameplay is very passive overall. There are some interesting powers and ideas, but I am not sure they just fit into one Warframe, and certainly not as that kind of kit.

Offensive version is only offensive so as far as it is damage/CC aura Maim and then some offensive oriented team buffs, and defensive is perhaps a bit better with Pacify and Mend, but not anything amazing. At least not to the extent that it could have been I think.

Honestly ideally I would like a rework on her/him, but that will not come anytime soon, and might never come, not to the extent that would make her/him interesting and awesome to play as and have in the team. DE is not too well known for making radical changes, although I live in the hope for it. More likely though, considering the history of re-works, it will mostly be tweaks here and there and within that vain we might want to explore those alternatives as well. Even if that would not be ideal conclusion, at least not for me.

[Archwizard]

Updated the OP to show that Nekros has changed. Part of me feels like what's mostly in the OP is nitpicking - Desecrate's existence on the whole (alongside other loot abilities/augments) still bothers me, but the fact that you don't have to spam it means most of the animosity towards the ability, and likely much of the support behind changing it further, is gone.

On 8/6/2016 at 6:31 PM, tnccs215 said:

-snip-

I apologize for taking so long to get back to you on this; my ADD means it takes me some time to build up the energy to get through blocks of text on a single subject. I'm literally writing this hot off the trail of reading your first post on this discussion; I haven't even gotten to Azamagon's or BETAOPTICS' responses yet!

But yes, I've wholeheartedly agreed with the sentiment since day 1 that Equinox feels like Scott tried too hard to make two separate frames and cram them together with a limiter. The point of the Taijitu is that the two sides are intended to be complementary – that although the two are inversions, one cannot persist without the other (and in fact, gives way to the other), and the two energies complete each other rather than canceling each other out. For something to be lost, it must be found(ed), and for something to be found, it must be lost; a cycle, like day and night.

Although I agree that the two forms require synergy with one another (to compel the player to swap more often than Metamorphosis' buff allows), the main issue that's been holding me back from directly addressing that is how. As you have no doubt realized, the "three quarters" philosophy has potential to make Equinox arguably the most complex frame available – which should, of course, be the major flaw of a shapeshifting hybrid character, the sum of whose parts make them competitive with other frames – but it also makes her the most complex frame to design (or in this case, redesign). 

Equinox' issue is that she is a bundle of 6 disconnected abilities thrown at a wall, loosely aligned, and tied together by Metamorphosis. None of her abilities were created with synergy in mind, they were created to convey "this is A" and "this is B"; considerations for her gameplay stopped after "she can change forms", and as you've noticed, several of her abilities feel like "halves", stretching out the effectiveness of 4 abilities over 7. Because of this, she would need to essentially be rebuilt from the ground up with synergy in mind – each ability with consideration to interactions not with 3 others, but with 5 or even 6 others.

[tnccs215]

On 8/9/2016 at 1:36 AM, Azamagon said:

1) Good point. It might just be me over-thinking her positioning issues, but I will agreed with your point of view here: Not the most important, but not something to ignore either.

2) Well by Provoke, I meant SORT of ok. Not great or anything, just sort of ok. Provoke requiring you to be close to allies who are close to enemies works in a purely supportive way: You are close to allies, then they get its benefits. Contrast that to Mend. It works kind of the same, yet not at all. Mend has no benefit being close to allies at first, but then it has no benefits (upon release) being close to enemies. The big difference between Provoke and Mend: Provoke only really requires you to constantly follow your allies to benefit them (cuz them being close to enemies might not be necessary for them to benefit from the P.Str, as they might also have very long range powers), Mend requires shifting your proximity back and forth between enemies and allies, and that is a problem if your allies have long range abilities etc. It's a bit nitpicky, yes, but it makes quite the difference in practice.

And still so, yes, that is why I (also) changed Provoke to debuff enemies: Then Equinox is all about being close to enemies (which I have more ideas about, but more to that later)

3) If one could make it so that Dayquinox's powers would function at best by being close to enemies and Nightquinox's powers would function at best just by being close to allies, then his PoV makes total sense: Day is aggressive and thus should be close to enemies, Night is defensive and thus should be close to allies. But considering how her abilities are designed, being VERY similar in both aspects mechanically, yet different in endresult, when shifting from one aspect to the other, it would be a very difficult thing to do. And how the kit is now, it doesn't work: Provoke is at odds with Maim, while Mend's release is at odds with Pacify.

However, this leads me to an idea in regards to her positioning: What if her powers could function just fine wether she is close to enemies OR allies? I will list my brainstorming ideas for that further down, in a bullet list.

4) Why? Blessing is instant both in healing and its buff, requiring no buildup whatsoever right now. Why should range be easier for it? Mend has a (potentially) long buildup, it deserves a "no range restriction" more than Blessing does.

5) I like that iteration of Mend, nice :) Wether the dome expands or not doesn't matter to me.

6) That's ... a really, really good idea! Swapping their effects entirely solves a lot indeed (Rage being a target-area ally-buffer and Provoke being an enemy-debuffing aura). This gives me more ideas for my bullet list further down. That said, I'd make it affect allies in the casted area, and to ALWAYS benefit Equinox herself, no matter where she casts it. She doesn't benefit from Power Strength supermuch anyway, so I don't see why not?
Note that I still was rather fond of giving Rage some form of ministun (more to that in the bullet-list), but considering Maim already has a stun, it's not all too important. Just something I thought was neat :P

7) Thanks :) It would also feel more like a DIRECT counterpart to (my revamped) Provoke: Both requires proximity to enemies, benefitting the team in different ways (more akin to how R&R and M&M functions), in contrast to its current iteration: Provoke wants you to be close to allies (in her AGGRESSIVE form) while Pacify wants you to be close to enemies (in her DEFENSIVE form). It currently just makes no sense, neither as true mechanical twins, nor positioning-thematically.

8) Yes, I saw it, and I really like the idea of giving Pacify a slow-effect (if nothing else, as you said yourself, it fits PERFECTLY with its name :P)
The only real problem I have with it is: What would Provoke's counterpart to Pacify's slow-effect be? If Provoke's effects were to be swapped with Rage, would it then also do the enemy movespeed increase thing? If so, then it's damage amp needs to be quite high to be worthwhile. If nothing extra were to be added to Provoke, the powers would not be fair to one another: Pacify reduces enemy damage output and slows them down, Provoke would only increases enemy damage intake and nothing else. This could need some more thought.
(Note: Don't get me wrong here, Pacify having a slow-effect fits so perfectly that I want your idea to be there! I just feel Provoke needs more too, that's all).

As for the augment swapping the effects: I'd rather the augment to be completely changed. It was an incredibly poorly voted on choice from the Design Council :(

Which leads me to something you didn't directly comment on: How did you like my deactivation bonus on P&P? I wouild like that to be part of the ability itself from the getgo (as I like when "fire & forget" abilities have some reason to be turned off too, more than just for saving energy), but if Provoke were to get some extra utility on it as a counterpart to Pacify's slow, then I would be totally fine with my deactivation bonus turning into P&P's augment.
(Note: My inspiration for the deactivation bonus is from the ability itself: When you turn it off, the aura doesn't just stop, its aura-indicator visually shrinks in to Equinox, like if she were to "absorb" it back again. And that fits with some part of Yin & Yang having some kind of a recycling / circle of life motife (afaik at least :P))

About the mixing of our ideas: Your idea sounds great: You have my energy-cost and debuff-application-ideas (only costs energy one time when they enter + debuff lingers a while after they leave the area), and the slowdown is simply a range-dynamical part of the aura (Closer to Equinox = they slow more. Leave the aura = No more slow). Sounds great to me :)

9) No, you are perfectly right here, it is nou just nitpicking (Slow-effect on an ability called Mend is indeed weird). The only reason I suggested it was because I wanted Mend's passive ongoing effect to be something that wanted you to, once again, be close to enemies. This is a case of where I might've pressed my "positioning" agenda too hard that I forgot that it doesn't even fit, hehe.
Now I'm contemplating what passive part Mend should have instead, which I would PREFER to be something negative on enemies (even if I do indeed like Arch's idea of making it reduce/remove shieldregen delay for allies), and what Provoke's added utility would be which fits as a counterpart to Pacify's slow. This leads me to two final things:

The names of the abilities:
The very names of Equinox's abilities makes them a bit odd, and I find several problems with them:
1) Names and who it should affect - Pacify, Provoke, Rest and Rage. All four sound like they all should be altering the states of enemies, with R&R having the possibility of actually being something beneficial on allies, as well. So that leads to some confusion to WHOM they really ought to affect in the first place. Mend and Maim are more clear on this (Mend is good for allies, Maim is bad for enemies). But all that also lends itself to being (potentially) a part of her positioning issues, imo. They are simply not clear enough on whom they should be affecting, nor then where she should be on the battlefield because of this.

2) Name similarities - Pacify is somewhat similar to Rest, while Provoke is also somewhat similar to Rage: Both Pacify and Rest sounds like you are tranquilizing someone's mind, while Provoke and Rage sounds like you are enraging someone's mind. This leads to another problem: It makes it a bit hard to differentiate what each ability actually should be doing. It's far more clear with Mend and Maim - One is to heal, one is to harm. But the other four are just so hard to distinguish to make them feel unique from one another. Pacify could just as well be the ability which makes enemies go to sleep. Provoke could just as well be the ability which makes enemies take more damage and run faster. It could actually be a good thing to change some of the names ENTIRELY. Maybe this is just an issue for me though *shrugs*

Anywho, on to the very final thing, my bullet-list:

How I'd further change the abilities (note: still just brainstorming!):

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Before telling the changes, here is an important note:

Equinox's abilities should make her positioning in the field either make her set in one place (like: always be near enemies), or adapt depending on the aspect (like: Day is near enemies, Night is near allies), or versatile (like: being close to allies or enemies both function well, with some favoring more one than the other here and there).
I have right now gone for the last idea; allowing her a versatile positioning, but even so it still leans more towards the first idea (being close to enemies).

Metamorphosis
* Switching is done instantly
* Switching keeps your P&P and M&M auras on (swapping their effects of course), no more instant deactivation.
* Being in an Aspect gives you full bonus of that form indefinitely
* Switching Aspect instantly gives you full bonus of the new form (indefinitely) AND a duration-based bonus of your previous Aspect's bonus. This bonus only starts decaying after HALF the duration has lasted.
Example: You are in Day form, enjoying your Speed and Damage bonuses indefinitely. But now you switch to Night form. This instantly gives you access to her Shield and Armorbonus. It also keeps Day form's bonuses (Speed and Damage) for 25 seconds. After 12,5 seconds (half the duration), these Day form bonuses start decaying linearly.
* Augment's duration doubled, but the attackpower of the "clone" is halfed

Still thinking of what effect to add to it so Power Range also matters for the skill.


Rest
* Remains the same as a targetted AoE still, and makes enemies fall asleep as well
* In addition, if allies are caught in the AoE, they get a Rest-bonus, which makes the ally regenerate health whenever it is not doing heavy movement (walking, crouching, wall-clinging and being still thus allows you to heal). Equinox always gets the Rest-bonus, regardless where she casts it.
* This means, its power is best used against enemies, but has a minor bonus to allies too.

Rage
* Remains the same as a targetted AoE still, causes enemies to run faster and suffer more damage taken, but also briefly staggers the enemy upon cast (or upon spread, with the augment).
* In addition, if allies are caught in the AoE, they get a Rage-bonus, which increases their Power Strength (and maybe something else too: Minor energyregen? Movespeed? Weapondamage?) by a moderate amount. Equinox always gets the Rage-bonus, regardless where she casts it.
* This means, its power is best used on allies, but has a minor bonus when cast on enemies too.

* Augment remains the same

Pacify
* Debuffs enemies in a diverse way: The enemies get debuffed if they enter the aura, or if the enemies attack an ally who is inside the aura.
* The debuff causes enemies to deal X% less damage (affected by Power Strength) for as long as they are within the aura, and up to X seconds after leaving her aura (affected by Power Duration). Each enemy debuffed costs her 3 energy (affected by Power Efficiency).
* The debuff also causes enemies to be slowed down. This effect is stronger the closer they are to Eqiunox while the aura is on. The slowdown also lingers when they leave aura, but then at minimal effect.

Provoke
* Debuffs enemies in a diverse way: The enemies get debuffed if they enter the aura, or if an ally inside the aura attacks the enemy
* The debuff causes enemies to take X% more damage (affected by Power Strength) for as long as the are within the aura, and up to X seconds after leaving her aura (affected by Power Duration). Each enemy debuffed costs 3 energy (affected by Power Efficiency).
* The debuff also causes enemies to miss more. This effect is stronger the closer they are to Eqiunox while the aura is on. The miss-effect also lingers when they leave aura, but then at minimal effect.

Miss-effect might seem odd, but it has its thoughts:
1) Note that Pacify slows enemies down. And slowed enemies are easier for you and your team to hit. Provoke's counterpart, making enemies miss you more, is thus the direct opposite of that :)
2) Also, a Provoked enemy might not be at his full senses (as he is angry). Being angry can mean you focus less and thus miss more.
Personally, I think it really fits.

* Augment revamped: Upon turning off P&P, Equinox gets bonus damage (flat damage) and bonus damage reduction (also flat damage). This counts for X attacks (two seperate stacks: one for the offense, one for the defense, and amount of attacks affected by Power Duration). How much the bonuses are depends on how much energy was spent on debuffing enemies. She gets both of these stacks regardless if it was Pacify or Provoke that was deactivated.

Maim
* Passively still causes enemies in the aura to become stunned and bleed. They suffer very minor flat damage and moderate percentage damage based on their max health.
* Release effect is the same as now.
* Storage is now also fueled by her and her allies' energy useage (multiplied by X), allowing her to stay close to allies, out of enemy range and still gain some fuel for the nuke

Mend
* Passively causes enemies in the aura to heal the shields or health of those who they shoot at: The healing is a very minor flat value and a moderate percentage healing of shields/health based on the max shields/health of the one they attack (always over 6 seconds, just like the bleed) (Note: The healing, flat value aside, is never more than what they hurt their target). Only applies ONE time per enemy attack (unless Mend is reactivated of course). This healing shot can NEVER proc a status-effect (this is an "equivalent" to the Maim's stun-effect)
* Release effect instantly heals all allies without range restrictions and leaves the remaining unused health (if any) as a dome which continuously heals allies who remain inside it. Size of the dome is the same as the aura's size.
* Storage is now also fueled by her and her allies' energy useage (multiplied by X), allowing her to stay close to allies, out of enemy range and still gain some fuel for the heal

The point of Mend's passive is to 1) Make it have an effect which benefits Equinox and her team by her being close to enemies and 2) still have an effect which works along with its "healing" name. While its actual damage mitigation (the healing) is maybe not all too powerful, it's strength lies more in the status-blocking effect. This can turn out to be a very powerful counter to hardhitting enemies whos status-effects can be very dangerous (Like Ballistas).

Final note: I'm still not fully happy with these ideas, mainly with Rest and Rage bothering me a bit in regards to what they should do to allies and enemies, and Mend's passive feels a bit weak. But I'm quite happy with P&P :)

 

Ok, Let's try and give you a proper response.

First, giving more details to the quick answer earlier (though, I'll be repeating a lot),

What I presented there was something that occurred to me while rereading you other post. You mentioned how Provoke kinda worked well enough, since allies are close to enemies which are good for feeding Maim. I argued that that logic could be used for all powers. However, while I used that argument as an attempt of a reductio ad absurdum, ironically, in Equinox's case, it's true. To a greater or smaller extent, all her powers benefit from proximity to allies much more than, say, frames like Valkyr do. 

(Current) Provoke is an obvious one, since it directly buffs them. Mend, likewise, since it heals them. However, so do Pacify and Maim. Pacify, because while it is always useful to reduce the damage of the biggest amount of enemies possible, and while that certainly will benefit you, there is no team-benefit (besides yours) of doing that to enemies that are too far away from your allies to attack them-- after all, the only benefit of reducing damage dealt by enemies instead of damage received by you is the fact that enemies aren't only targeting you. And Maim, the best offensive ability of her kit, benefits too from proximity to allies because allied kills also contribute for the stored damage. Granted, when discharging, it's best to prioritise enemy density; but regardless, the benefit is there.

As such, and as I said before, perhaps the problem is not the discrepancy between the required positionings, but how utterly unforgiving the abilities can be if you don't abide perfectly to it. 

Ence, in terms of positioning, Mend&Maim (though, Maim much more than Mend) is not as problematic as the current iteration of Pacify&Provoke is:

• Overall, for a support aura, it features a small range: 16 meters. Abilities like Silence (enemy debuff) possess a base range of 20 meters (Sonar possesses 35), and so do abilities like Roar. Sometimes even bigger ranges (Warcry and Speed possess 25 meters) exist. Indeed, the only friendly buffer with a smaller range than P&P that I found was none other than Elemental Ward (which itself got a good augment to buff its team support--- though, honestly, Chroma itself is open for discussion). I am not a fan of using comparisons to other frames as an argument, but when almost every single frame as better values for a similar power, something is not right. Why did DE decided that 16 meters was enough? well, possibly because of the "she has two Aspects" fallacy. 
• Pacify: not only it has a short range, it also has damage reduction fall-off. Honestly, I don't even need to say anything else, we all know how utterly awful Pacify is. Poor damage reduction, high cost, fall-off, etc. It's not a good self defense ability, much less a enemy debuffer, in a game where enemies can be spread all across a map.
• Provoke: If enemies are spread thin, Allies are spread thinner. This is Warframe, and mobility is the main course every meal. Buffing allies with such a short range is irrealistic, specially when you yourself need to change position due to Maim. More often than not, the only effect Provoke has is a split second of an icon next to some ally's name, only for it to disapear just as quickly.

Fortunately, however, you stumbled in a solution. The "enemies affected by Pacify work with a timer" is a technique already used by most ally buffers, and it works for a reason. Making both Pacify and Provoke work that way will make the abilities forgivable (enough) for the problem to go away, without trivialisation. 

That's my take on it, at least. more thought put into this are appreciated.

There is another thing that I consider a priority-- you probably noticed how I did not mention the switching of Provoke and Rage as team buffer/enemy (de)buffer abilities. That is because, as much as I like the idea, I think one should fix what is broken, and only substitute what is irredeemable. I mean... even though it does indeed make a bit more sense (or at least it would be more mechanically consonant) for Provoke to be an enemy debuffer, its nature as a friendly buffer is not inherently problematic. It's poor implementation is, of that there is no doubt. But it can be fixed, easily fixed, and still work just as well. In a rework, the least you have to change to make a Frame incredible, the better. And completely remaking Provoke is not a necessity. So, I think, we should stick to Provoke as a team buffer. 

Of course, feel free to try and convince me of otherwise.

(Also, regardless of whether or not Provoke should change to a enemy debuffer ability, I like all your ideas regardless, and I really like the idea of making Rest&Rage having Ally buffin effects, specially the ones you proposed. More on that later)

----

Onto your several responses than. I'll keep your enumeration, btw. Too useful

Btw, if I pass over something, it's either because I think it's a closed subject, was already addressed in this post (points 1, 2 and 3 in particular, were pretty much the center of the introductory paragraphs), or I simply forgot. Feel free to call me out if you think I failed to address anything as well as I should.

5)I want to give some more input regarding Mend: taking the initial thought into consideration, I have to say that I agree more than ever that indeed, an initial healing wave with no range limitations is very, very much important. Also, I think I wasn't clear in my words: My idea was for the dome to expand, but whether or not the initial general healing would be instant or work as a wave. I honestly prefer the wave, but was having some problems devising a mechanic that would incorporate both the dome and the healing wave. At first I had nothing, but a got one in the meanwhile: Once Equinox deactivates Mend, a dome with the healing capability equivalent to the stored HP will be created. From this dome, a healing wave expands, healing all allies that touches. All healing done by the wave is discounted from the dome's pool. 

A possible augment would be for the wave to give overshields, I suppose. Would like more input about this.

6)Well, glad that you liked it! It's a shame I don't think how much of a good idea it would indeed be.

8)That's a very relevant question, one I'm not sure I know how to answer. While it's easy to know what's the best utility to give Pacify-- simply robbing and teawing the current augment is beyond good enough-- We don't have the same privilege with Provoke. And, indeed, the problem is increased if Provoke indeed changes place with Rage. I honestly don't know how to answer. Your brainstorming is not bad at all, indeed the loss of accuracy is a good idea-- though, it would make "Rage" a much better name (more comments on the nomenclature on the correct place), but I think the speed buff would have to be removed. Rage is already quite too punishing, and making an equivalent but with much bigger range would be suicidal. I must give it more thought.

Regarding the augment: Fair enough, I'm not too satisfied with it either.

Now, your deactivation Bonus: I think they do make some sense. While I do not have a particular problem with Fire&Forget abilities, I have to say that adding a reason to not have them on is quite attractive. There is, however, a problem: Mend&Maim already work that way.

True, their functionality is much more focused on the deactivation than Pacify&Provoke would be, but that it would be somewhat of a saturation of the mechanics. I don't know. Personally, I think it is very fitting for an Augment, more than for a base ability. However, as always, feel free to convince me of otherwise.

9)Honestly, and again favouring it's current nomenclature, I think it makes more sense for mend to give a benefit to allies than a debuff to enemies. After all, it is called "Mend", and therefore a negative effect for enemies does not make much sense. More than that: Pacify itself already grants a debuff to enemies. Making Mend do so too seems quite excessive, I think. In this case, the no-delay-for-shield-recharge seems like a fitting enough.

Talking about nomenclature:

To be honest, it's one of those things in which I partially agree with you: though I do think that Rest and Pacify, though they can mean similar things in a certain context, befit their current place well enough, I agree that both Rage and Provoke are very, very much ambiguous. I don't know, in this case, I don't consider it a particularly big issue.

Ok, now to the best: the brainstorming:

Metamorphosis:

I like all the changes, though I think permanent extra damage in weapons when on Day Form might be a bit too much. I think the permanent passives should not be affected by Power Strength, honestly-- though they could get a buff to compensate.

Regarding the need for Range mods, I don't think that will be necessary: while I agree that the most abilities affected by the several stats, the better, when it's just one ability left, I think that is passable. Specially when Range is already so important for her.

Speaking of which...

• Most of her abilities will need a Range buff.

Currently, the fact that Pacify is useless and that Provoke is passable do give her the... "benefit" of being able to almost completely slack off of power strength and Power duration. This means that most good builds (sometimes excluding Peaceful Provocation ones) will have extrenuous amounts of range, allowed due to not needing to compensate overextended, and simply not having to include as many mods. The same won't happen should the changes proposed be applied:

Duration will become important for both Pacify&Provoke and maybe for Mend

Pacify&Provoke and Metamorphosis wont be irrelevant, and there will be a reason to increase power strength in Maim.

This means Equinox will start favouring, not 250% range builds, but overall more balanced ones. Ence, the extreme range needed to make abilities like P&P more relevant, and even M&M or R&R wont be possible. 

Trully, the only ability I think won't need a range buff is Rest&Rage, for obvious reasons-- you gotta reduce on that cheese, it's not good for your health.

Of course, this is open for discussion

Rest

I really like your changes to this one. They are not priorities, no, but adding Team buffing characteristics to R&R is a really, really good utility addition. Plus, your idea is a really, really good one. Sacrifice mobility for health regeneration: it both fits the power, as it is useful without being too useful. Yes, I love this one.

Rage

Regardless of what happens to Provoke-- whether if it's better to leave it as a teambuffer, or make it an enemy debuffer-- I really want Rage to also have a team support component. Should Provoke become an enemy debuffer, the ones you proposed trully are more than good enough. If not, increasing sprint speed and melee damage (cause being mad won't make your bullets harder) would be good substitutes, and enemy speed increase should either be replaced or offset by the reduction to enemy accuracy-- I agree that it's a neat touch

Pacify

This is mostly my baby, so I practically find this perfect. However, while I trully like that detail of enemies getting debuffed should they attack an allie inside the aura, I don't know if it isn't a bit of an overkill with the ability.

Provoke

Already gave my thoughts about it earlier, but regardless, I have to say I like the changes you propose-- only gripe I have is how enemy accuracy reduction fits more a power called "Rage" than Provoke ("less" is different than "not at all").

1. Also, I have a question: enemies inside the aura will keep the debuff for as long as they stay inside the aura, or will the debuff refresh (and therefore cost energy) when their timer ends when inside the aura? This aplies both for Pacify and Provoke
2. Btw, I think that we should keep cost/enemy as a blank value for now, because we literally don't know what are "fair" values for this. It's easy to get said values for things like duration, range, Strength, and efficiency for "normal" abilities, but in this case, it's better to leave them blank.

Mend

the, erhm.... "problem" with abilities such as Mend--- whose lackluster nature is not due to insufficient numerical values, but yes due to the absence of a utility effect-- is that they allow imagination to run wild. The same problem is imposed with Provoke (though not with Pacify, the simplest and most efficient what to buff it well enough was pretty much obvious, just an adaptation of it's characteristics), and with R&R. 

What I mean is that I will probably just say "yeah that's a great idea!" and will have little to no additional input if it trully is a good idea-- sometimes, somethings are just as good as other propositions.

The first proposal is one of those cases. I like how you attempted to make it a mirror affect to Maim's, affecting enemies, which in turn affect allies. I just fear it will a bit too over the top, though it trully might not. Honestly, in this case, feedback that isn't from me would be appreciated (so, other people in this thread, please start commenting).

I also like the "energy fuels stored damage" thing. It's a great QoL that incentives ability use HOWEVER: it is not a necessity. It trully is just another addition that isn't required, and honestly, might be discarded, even though it truly is a good idea. Sometimes, you have to reduce and streamline things.

The rest I agree with everything, though I'd rather have the heal wave not be instantaneous, and have it's speed affected by duration. That's pretty much all I have to say.

Maim

Indeed, it requires minimal changes. Specially on this case, due to Maim's murderous nature, I think the ability use as a fuel doesn't make much sense.

------

Overall, I really like your ideas, and I'm honestly thankful you came here to comment. I only hope more people in here give their feedback, be it negative or positive, as long as it is constructive.

[EDIT]: Ironically, more people just commented. great!

 

 

Edited August 10, 2016 by tnccs215

[taiiat]

1 hour ago, Archwizard said:

Updated the OP to show that Nekros has changed. Part of me feels like what's mostly in the OP is nitpicking - Desecrate's existence on the whole (alongside other loot abilities/augments) still bothers me, but the fact that you don't have to spam it means most of the animosity towards the ability, and likely much of the support behind changing it further, is gone.

(even though this is a straight downgrade [to Desecrate] and it's now a terrible Support Ability, significantly worse for Support than it was before)
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Edited August 10, 2016 by taiiat

[RealPandemonium]

1 hour ago, taiiat said:

(even though this is a straight downgrade and it's now a terrible Support Ability, significantly worse for Support than it was before)
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

You're talking about Desecrate?  The fewer orbs does suck, but it's more efficient on small groups of enemies now in addition to the hands-free at least. 

I'm also surprised that AW hasn't commented on the SotD nerf yet. 

Edited August 10, 2016 by RealPandemonium

[Archwizard]

1 hour ago, taiiat said:

(even though this is a straight downgrade and it's now a terrible Support Ability, significantly worse for Support than it was before)
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Well yeah. Desecrate was hard to balance to start with just because of the loot it provided, but became downright impossible to balance the moment they added Despoil to an effect that guaranteed health orbs on a success.

I'd been saying since the suggestion first cropped up that no, the devs would never make Desecrate a toggle because, with Despoil, the guaranteed health orb drops would feed into itself and never give reason to turn it off.
My conclusion was wrong, but for the right reasons; it would've been more apt to say a hypothetical toggled version would never be a 1:1 translation - which is what people wanted, because as I've always said, they want to have their cake and eat it too. They always agreed that Desecrate was "balanced just fine" aside from the spam, and failed to realize you can't just buff a balanced skill and expect it to still be considered balanced.

The irony is actually quite hilarious from this side of the argument.

13 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

I'm also surprised that AW hasn't commented on the SotD nerf yet. 

Haven't had a chance to test it yet.

[(PSN)Xeon_Vaz]

"Pilfering Swarm is now limited to the creation of orbs, ammo and life support/batteries "

No. you do this, you kill Hydroid. Period.

[tnccs215]

2 hours ago, Archwizard said:

Updated the OP to show that Nekros has changed. Part of me feels like what's mostly in the OP is nitpicking - Desecrate's existence on the whole (alongside other loot abilities/augments) still bothers me, but the fact that you don't have to spam it means most of the animosity towards the ability, and likely much of the support behind changing it further, is gone.

Gonna have to test him personally. Quite excited to see his changes, specially those made to SotD

 

2 hours ago, Archwizard said:

I apologize for taking so long to get back to you on this; my ADD means it takes me some time to build up the energy to get through blocks of text on a single subject. I'm literally writing this hot off the trail of reading your first post on this discussion; I haven't even gotten to Azamagon's or BETAOPTICS' responses yet!

But yes, I've wholeheartedly agreed with the sentiment since day 1 that Equinox feels like Scott tried too hard to make two separate frames and cram them together with a limiter. The point of the Taijitu is that the two sides are intended to be complementary – that although the two are inversions, one cannot persist without the other (and in fact, gives way to the other), and the two energies complete each other rather than canceling each other out. For something to be lost, it must be found(ed), and for something to be found, it must be lost; a cycle, like day and night.

Although I agree that the two forms require synergy with one another (to compel the player to swap more often than Metamorphosis' buff allows), the main issue that's been holding me back from directly addressing that is how. As you have no doubt realized, the "three quarters" philosophy has potential to make Equinox arguably the most complex frame available – which should, of course, be the major flaw of a shapeshifting hybrid character, the sum of whose parts make them competitive with other frames – but it also makes her the most complex frame to design (or in this case, redesign). 

Equinox' issue is that she is a bundle of 6 disconnected abilities thrown at a wall, loosely aligned, and tied together by Metamorphosis. None of her abilities were created with synergy in mind, they were created to convey "this is A" and "this is B"; considerations for her gameplay stopped after "she can change forms", and as you've noticed, several of her abilities feel like "halves", stretching out the effectiveness of 4 abilities over 7. Because of this, she would need to essentially be rebuilt from the ground up with synergy in mind – each ability with consideration to interactions not with 3 others, but with 5 or even 6 others.

I'm very thankful for the response, and I take no offense in your delay: ADD can be very problematic, and _{[engage boot-licking mode]} to create feedback as you do-- which trully is very well written and streamlined-- takes time regardless_{[disengage boot-licking mode]}. I hope you have patience, however, because as you have seen, the responses have been very long and productive.

Secondly, I trully have little to comment on your words, for the simple reason that I agree with them. Quite honestly, when I first read this thread (I became part of the forums population shortly after Equinox), I was genuinely amazed I did not found Equinox in your "Priorities" List, to the point I considered that maybe it was me who was making a fuss over her. However, I've always known something failed on Equinox, and only over the course of much time and practice I've somewhat been able to figure out what, exactly. 

I do think that our opinions diverge a little bit: not exactly due to the ideal behind her, but yes due to what should be done. If you read my reworks (the several lot of them, this apparent unplanned partnership with @Azamagon is something new, and while I am trully thankful for their originality, coming up with ideas I could never do on my own, this mentality I've held as come before them), you'll noticed that, as I've gained some more knowledge about her (or, at least, believe I do), I've also become increasingly realistic.

I don't disagree that she would be the frame that would most win from synergy-- it fits her more than anything else, as you've put-- but I came to the realisation that, perhaps, her synergy should come, not from complex inter-ability interactions, but yes from her interaction with the environment.

That is, her synergy would be her ability to adapt to each situation by using the correct Aspect and ability, and sacrificing the rest, and not from interactions within her kit. Instead of juggling between several abilities, you would have to strain yourself mostly with two sides: offense, defense. 

There would be four main tasks to do to obtain this:

-Making each power worthwhile. No more half powers, no more lacklusters, no more cheese.

-Making each power as mechanically similar to its mirror version as possible. Azamagon found much better ways to do this (and my propositions kind of sacrificed it a bit)

-Making changing Aspect as fluid as possible. No more storage loss, no more buid-up gone away, and above all, ability transformation over deactivation

-Ironically, keeping inter-Aspect synergy as it is-- that is, borderline inexistent.

Day Aspect and Night Aspect currently feel like two completely different frames to use, and this would-- to some extent, though never completely-- change that. The role would be different, the result would too, but the feeling would be the same. This would be achieved by making powers seemingly equal in their mechanics; and the fact that you simply do not have to activate them, more than making the gameplay more fluid, will make the frame more whole. The fact that there are little or no inter-Aspect interactions helps with this in the matter that you no longer consider each Aspect as a different one, with different effects. When the cat is alive, he was always living. When the cat is dead, he was always dead. 

I believe there is a reason for Pacify&Provoke to be a "Fire&Forget" ability: Making one ability practically a passive reduces the mental strain required to do the ability juggling. In a fast paced game, that is fundamental. The only problem is that it all went down the sink with the fact abilities are deactivated, and that Pacify and Provoke work so differently, and require such different positioning. Changing that, and she becomes much simpler. 

Ironically, this changes that I have in mind, more than increase synergy, solidify her and make her more worthwhile and, I believe-- for the good or the worse, and even though it was not my original objective-- simpler.

There would be no Provoke and Pacify, no Mend and Maim; only Day and Night.

Offense, Defense. 

--------

But this is not the only way. @BETAOPTICS, I've shown some hostility towards what drew and the crew said, and I believe I was somewhat fundamented.

But the truth is, while I think that making her powers just more metamorphosis buffs would not be the best way to go, the idea behind it, an idea obviously shared by many, that each aspect should augment eachother.... is not bad.

Yes, her powers need some buffing on their own regardless of the path chosen, but the idea of making her a juggler, and having each power augment eachother, is a very attractive idea for the sense that she would be unique.

However... is Warframe the game for that? 

Such synergy does more than require mental capacity-- it requires time. And time is not allowed in this game. The biggest problem I have with Mag is the split-second too long cast of Polarize. Saryn's Spores take so long to have an effect that I've been killed more often due to that than any other reason when playing her-- and it has a relatively small casting time. 

Such juggling and synergy require proactiveness, and for the exception of Inaros and Mag in some cases, proactiveness is almost impossible in this game. The fact that having to recast P&P again is so disjointing for Equinox, even though it takes almost no time, is a proof of that.

That is the main reason why I've held myself in the ground with Equinox, attempting to propose the most concise, precise and fluid she could be.

 

 

 

Edited August 11, 2016 by tnccs215