Retune *all* The Frames! (11/19: Wildfire)

[Archwizard]

-snip-

 

Imagine if you will, a world where Molecular Prime also causes enemies under its effects to explode into loot. Now, there is zero reason not to have a Nova in every mission tagging every enemy for loot explosions. No skill, no coordination, no tact. The fact that nobody loses anything makes it just one degree of separation from having the loot "bonus" be a passive - the kind you lose with the wrong setup. The fact that it CCs enemies, does high damage and causes loot gains when the opponent dies would invariably change the whole balance of the game, with every Nova build based on turning every enemy into mere loot pinatas. The game would need to be rebalanced against such forms, limiting the actual gain from the effect and harming the CC and damage applications of the ability itself. Chaos.

 

The only difference between what you suggest for Hydroid and that world, is that Tentacle Swarm has a Power In Use. 

 

Or I'm just being paranoid, but better safe than sorry. The way it's designed now proposes a much more interesting design philosophy.

Edited April 11, 2015 by Archwizard

[Azamagon]

Imagine if you will, a world where Molecular Prime also causes enemies under its effects to explode into loot. Now, there is zero reason not to have a Nova in every mission tagging every enemy for loot explosions. No skill, no coordination, no tact. The fact that nobody loses anything makes it just one degree of separation from having the loot "bonus" be a passive - the kind you lose with the wrong setup. The fact that it CCs enemies, does high damage and causes loot gains when the opponent dies would invariably change the whole balance of the game, with every Nova build based on turning every enemy into mere loot pinatas. The game would need to be rebalanced against such forms, limiting the actual gain from the effect and harming the CC and damage applications of the ability itself. Chaos.

 

The only difference between what you suggest for Hydroid and that world, is that Tentacle Swarm has a Power In Use. 

 

Or I'm just being paranoid, but better safe than sorry. The way it's designed now proposes a much more interesting design philosophy.

You see, this is the reason why I hate the loot bonuses in the first place... especially so since I absolutely HATE the Power In Use restriction on Tentacle Swarm (and pretty much all other abilities too for that matter).

 

Before, I hated Desecrate with a passion due to its loot meta-bonuses

Then Pilfering Swarm happened (stupid design council voting is to blame a lot on this one, if you didn't know... so many idiots in there that can't see further than their own greed, unfortunately) and I just felt that I should give up on the "lootbonus" hatred, hence my previous post

Now, you post that last post of yours and with that you have refueled my hatred for loot-bonuses again, I guess I should be saying thank you... only problem is that it feels like a pointless battle.

 

How do you just not give up when you see DE being so stubborn about their bad designs (+ with people backing them up)?

Edited April 11, 2015 by Azamagon

[Arcira]

I would like to see some sort of passive abilities, too. For example ember could benefit from burning ground, because logic and stuff. Same for frost in ice tilesets. 

 

That could even extend there overall mechanics. As more enemies are frozen/ignited near ember/frost this passive get a boost.

Because they like it hot and cool.

 

Valkyr could get a boost if only equiped with melee weapon (or maybe melee and secondary). Necros for death bodies nearby and so on.

 

These passive would support the basic orientation of the frame, like small energie reg for ember and frost, life reg amor or something for vakyr

[Noble_Cactus]

You see, this is the reason why I hate the loot bonuses in the first place... especially so since I absolutely HATE the Power In Use restriction on Tentacle Swarm (and pretty much all other abilities too for that matter).

 

Before, I hated Desecrate with a passion due to its loot meta-bonuses

Then Pilfering Swarm happened (stupid design council voting is to blame a lot on this one, if you didn't know... so many idiots in there that can't see further than their own greed, unfortunately) and I just felt that I should give up on the "lootbonus" hatred, hence my previous post

Now, you post that last post of yours and with that you have refueled my hatred for loot-bonuses again, I guess I should be saying thank you... only problem is that it feels like a pointless battle.

 

How do you just not give up when you see DE being so stubborn about their bad designs (+ with people backing them up)?

 

If it isn't confidential information, what were the other augment ideas for Tentacles?

[Elydir]

Then Pilfering Swarm happened (stupid design council voting is to blame a lot on this one, if you didn't know... so many idiots in there that can't see further than their own greed, unfortunately)

 

If it isn't confidential information, what were the other augment ideas for Tentacles?

 

I dont wanna get too into it, but Pilfering Swam wasn't the winning vote for Tentacle Swarm's augment. DE decided to override it because the winning vote was more practical.

[taiiat]

If it isn't confidential information, what were the other augment ideas for Tentacles?

if i summarize paraphrase, it should be okay.

some of the other things in the Poll were things like:

Kills Regen Health to nearby Players.

spawns a Pool on the ground that attacks.

spawns extra Tentacles at Hydroid's location as long as he is stationary.

creates an AoE Blast upon ending.

the loot one.

Tentacles have an AoE to knockdown and Damage Enemies. (probably someone thinking of the Kraken in Pirates of the Caribbean, haha)

the thread for submitting ideas had many more than that, ofcourse.

Edited April 12, 2015 by taiiat

[Archwizard]

How do you just not give up when you see DE being so stubborn about their bad designs (+ with people backing them up)?

 

Because sometimes...

 

14.5.0: Oberon

"- Smite deals Radiation/Puncture [...] status chance increased to 100%. 

- Hallowed Ground is summoned under Oberon's feet and grants (stackable) damage reduction to allies standing in it. 

- Renewal is now a Toggled aura [...] Activating Renewal also instantly purges status effects from allies within range (but only on the first pulse) and increases recovery time."

 

... they listen to reason.

[RealPandemonium]

Because sometimes...

 

 

... they listen to reason.

Eh, random hodgepodges of user suggestions is not "listening to reason."  It was more a lack of creativity and laziness (read:not on their agenda in the first place.)  The Oberon revisions and the Radial Javelin -> radial nuke change really shook my faith in DE and heralded the start of a great neglect for gameplay as well as a troubling shift in their approach to balance and content in general.   

[Archwizard]

Eh, random hodgepodges of user suggestions is not "listening to reason."  It was more a lack of creativity and laziness (read:not on their agenda in the first place.)  The Oberon revisions and the Radial Javelin -> radial nuke change really shook my faith in DE and heralded the start of a great neglect for gameplay as well as a troubling shift in their approach to balance and content in general.   

 

... I'm sorry, which part of buffing Oberon "shook your faith"? He had been universally panned within weeks of his release.

 

No, the buffs themselves weren't polarizingly strong or necessarily original, but that's sort of the point - the Paladin is the RPG's Jack-of-all-Trades.

[RealPandemonium]

... I'm sorry, which part of buffing Oberon "shook your faith"? He had been universally panned within weeks of his release.

 

No, the buffs themselves weren't polarizingly strong or necessarily original, but that's sort of the point - the Paladin is the RPG's Jack-of-all-Trades.

That's another problem: If DE had never mentioned "paladin" then no one would have had such a sentiment to begin with.  

 

Also, I didn't pan him before the revisions; his abilities could have used some polish but what he got was not what he needed.  The only thing that he needed that he got was better tracking on Smite's projectiles. Really, the Smite changes were spot-on.  However, turning Renewal into a toggle was dumbfounding, leaving Hallowed Ground with no CC (and thus, no damage potenial) was severely disappointing, and the changes to Reckoning just tacked on gratuitous CC without actually fixing its health orb mechanic.  Rather than fixing the problems with his powers, DE just took suggestions at random while also shoehorning their shiny new toggle mechanic in.  

 

That's why my faith was shaken, and the increased sway this forum has on DE now shows that my fears were warranted.  You only need to look at what a trainwreck things are now (with no solution in sight) compared to a year ago to see why.  

Edited April 13, 2015 by RealPandemonium

[akira_him]

That's another problem: If DE had never mentioned "paladin" then no one would have had such a sentiment to begin with.  

 

Also, I didn't pan him before the revisions; his abilities could have used some polish but what he got was not what he needed.  The only thing that he needed that he got was better tracking on Smite's projectiles. Really, the Smite changes were spot-on.  However, turning Renewal into a toggle was dumbfounding, leaving Hallowed Ground with no CC (and thus, no damage potenial) was severely disappointing, and the changes to Reckoning just tacked on gratuitous CC without actually fixing its health orb mechanic.  Rather than fixing the problems with his powers, DE just took suggestions at random while also shoehorning their shiny new toggle mechanic in.  

 

That's why my faith was shaken, and the increased sway this forum has on DE now shows that my fears were warranted.  You only need to look at what a trainwreck things are now (with no solution in sight) compared to a year ago to see why.  

We have renewal, why do we want health orbs? but I agree with the part of hallowed ground, it should have CC

[RealPandemonium]

We have renewal, why do we want health orbs? but I agree with the part of hallowed ground, it should have CC

Health orbs are nice to have around as insurance.  Anyone who's been on long missions with an attentive Nekros should be able to appreciate the value of having hp orbs around.  

[Noble_Cactus]

That's another problem: If DE had never mentioned "paladin" then no one would have had such a sentiment to begin with.  

 

Also, I didn't pan him before the revisions; his abilities could have used some polish but what he got was not what he needed.  The only thing that he needed that he got was better tracking on Smite's projectiles. Really, the Smite changes were spot-on.  However, turning Renewal into a toggle was dumbfounding, leaving Hallowed Ground with no CC (and thus, no damage potenial) was severely disappointing, and the changes to Reckoning just tacked on gratuitous CC without actually fixing its health orb mechanic.  Rather than fixing the problems with his powers, DE just took suggestions at random while also shoehorning their shiny new toggle mechanic in.  

 

That's why my faith was shaken, and the increased sway this forum has on DE now shows that my fears were warranted.  You only need to look at what a trainwreck things are now (with no solution in sight) compared to a year ago to see why.  

 

It's pretty clear at this point that DE is apprehensive to make any move that they think might improve the game, partly out of recognition of their past incompetence when it comes to balancing the game, and partly out of the recognition that the direction (or what little there is of it) in which they want to take the game lies on one side of a deep rift with how the game currently works. And crossing this rift makes people mad. So they introduce anemic reworks and balance decisions to avoid these slip-ups. Or, in the case of Limbo and mesa, they attempt something creative, fail, and then release an apology frame that caters to the worst of what WF has to offer.

 

-

 

In any case, I'm glad I'm not alone in thinking that making Renewal toggleable was unnecessary. I'll copy/paste my idea for Renewal from another thread:

 

 

Renewal is a bizarre healing skill. I'm glad other people are baffled by its design. What it is:

- A slow projectile

- That drains energy while it's out and while it's healing

- That has a duration

- And that shuts off when whatever it's healing reaches full hp.

Oh, yeah, and it's toggleable for some reason too.

I understand how it works, but whenever I try to use it I just go "...why?"

Why can't Renewal just work like this:

- Sends out an orbs upon casting

- No energy drain

- No toggle

- Orb hits target, purges debuffs from targets after x seconds

- Orb continues healing target for the rest of its duration. If the target is at full health, the HoT still ticks until it expires. You know, like a normal Heal Over Time. Maybe it even provides bonus health that decays over time if the target is at full hp. Or an anti-prog shield that lasts for y seconds. Or a general damage reduction for that target.

- Ability retains the bleed out reduction. Was this trait ever fixed?

Just a thought.

[taiiat]

i guess we're all just different, but being able to toggle Renewal is useful for me. since it's burst plus trickle, if i cancel the trickle partially through (such as when almost everyone is Healed already) to start over again, this can be significantly beneficial in the event more Healing is needed. speeding up the process for those that may have much larger Health Pools.

i will agree that addressing the very unreliable (since it needs to get the Kill as a fairly low Damage Ability for most Loadouts) Health Orbs on Reckoning should have happened, but the other features are certainly welcome. Slam Jam makes for some good CC.

Hallowed Ground probably deserves some slowing to make Enemies stay in the fields longer, but i guess it doesn't bother me all that much because i use Reckoning for CC and Hallowed Ground for Damage via Hallowed Eruption.

[Archangelzz]

Actually your a bit wrong on the excal rework

 

Slash Dash is actually going to function almost exactly like the end of the Archwing trailer were excalibur goes on a rampage inside the balmorian with his nikana doing a combo while bouncing from one enemy to the next in front of him. The devs even stated this in the live stream

 

Radial blind no longer is restricted to being stationary to cast you can now move and use it at the same time and it opens them up to finishers that are unquie to excalibur alone

 

Radial Javlien (now skill number 3 also the name should be changed since it has nothing to do with javliens ) it will function pretty much the same I think but they said there will be changes to it

 

And the ultimate is now similar to valkiers ult were excalibur summons a energy sword except he also has a unquie stance that he alone can use with it and he he the ability to release release energy waves from his sword with each slash.

 

And excaliburs energy sword will be remodeled to be unquie looking(and we get another helmet), these are the changes stated by the devs for him.

[taiiat]

and it opens them up to finishers that are unquie to excalibur alone

the amount of disappoint i will be if i cannot Execute my Enemies in a Chivalrous looking style.

raising the Sword with both hands, and driving it down like a Railroad Spike. in a calm manner, not frantic with it looking like extreme effort is being put into it. something that looks noble.

twisting the blade after driving it is acceptable.

[Archwizard]

Actually your a bit wrong on the excal rework

 

The short list in the OP isn't my way of rephrasing it, it's me suggesting additions to it.

[(PSN)forty_FOKELS]

If Loki's decoy is a hologram, then why/how would it take damage?  It's only a projection.  I've been using Loki(P) since I started playing over a year and a half ago; I still haven't figured this out.  And if it's not "just a projection" then it should do damage.  And if it is "just a projection", then shouldn't it project whatever Loki is using at the time.  It just seems like instead of fixing Loki's decoy, DE waited for Mirage to get it right.  1 more thing: Wouldn't it make more sense for a stationary projection to be proximity based in some way?  Like, if the further you got away from it, the more the projection would fade.  Then you wouldn't have to worry about decoy shield/health at all; you would just use range mods to increase the distance you could be from the decoy before it starts to dissapear.

 

I can't help but to think how much better Loki's Decoy would be if it was more like the Holoprojector from Star Wars.

 

1. It still won't do damage to physical objects.
 
2. It only "receives" damage when Loki(P) is damaged (Destroyed if Loki(P) goes down).
 
3. It completely replicates Loki's current build (his weapons) & motions (parkour & casting abilities) in a stationary position.

 

About Loki's Augment mod= 9 sec. of Radiation.  I don't use it for my Primary Loki P build, but I'm building another Loki P just for RD.  It just doesn't seem like 9 sec. is much help.  Does this increase if you also have Duration mods equipped?  Then I could see this having a major effect.  If not, I think this should be altered as well.  I don't use RD that much, really only in T4D & T4Sur.  Has anyone noticed if the stun duration from Loki's RD increases w/ Duration/ Strength mods?

 

Because my Primary Loki P build is also built for speed, I don't really use Switch Teleport for combat.  I only use it to combo w/ Decoy when I need to get somewhere I can jump or wall climb to.

 

I've heard some people say that even though Loki's Invis. lasts longer, it takes more energy than Ash's Smoke Bomb.  But what's also better about Loki's Invis. is that he can use it in the air, whereas Ash must be grounded to use Smoke Bomb.= This is a GOOD thing; PLEASE DON'T CHANGE THIS.

 

I really want to get into video game design, and these are the things I think about when I see how games can be improved.  If I was helping with the "Loki Buff Team", this is what I would pitch to them.

[taiiat]

-snip-

Decoy can be destroyed because otherwise it would singlehandedly trivialize the entire game by attracting all Enemies to attack it, forever.

if you want Decoy to be indestructible, then... it probably wouldn't have a Threat Level at all, and just be a mobility tool. that would be a detriment though, giving Loki less options to manipulate combat.

Decoy doesn't duplicate your own Equipment because it's an inexpensive Ability, but duplicating your own Weapon(s) would mean it would be Killing Enemies left and right, which is not even something a 100E Ability does necessarily.

you might also be suggesting that it visually look more like Loki, which... maybe. moving and acting like the Player sounds acceptable. as long as it can still be visually distinguished by Players as a Decoy rather than the actual Loki.

Irradiating Disarm is arguably Overpowered. with the frantic pace of Warframe, it's probably okay, but it makes Disarm even more ridiculous.

Disarm is only affected by Range and Power Strength. Power Strength only affects how much Damage it deals to Enemies which have no Weapons to Disarm from to start with, such as Infested.

otherwise, just Range.

the Stun and Target resetting of Disarm is powerful enough without Mods affecting it. if you need more, you can always cast it more often.

Smokebomb might as well be less restricting, i don't see why not. being less restricting increases the skill ceiling of gameplay. it probably won't happen but Animation Lock and Et Cetera dumbs down the game and limits how much skill the Player can bring to the table.

Invisibility is ~4% more Energy efficient than Smoke Bomb already.

[(PSN)forty_FOKELS]

Decoy can be destroyed because otherwise it would singlehandedly trivialize the entire game by attracting all Enemies to attack it, forever.

if you want Decoy to be indestructible, then... it probably wouldn't have a Threat Level at all, and just be a mobility tool. that would be a detriment though, giving Loki less options to manipulate combat.

Decoy doesn't duplicate your own Equipment because it's an inexpensive Ability, but duplicating your own Weapon(s) would mean it would be Killing Enemies left and right, which is not even something a 100E Ability does necessarily.

you might also be suggesting that it visually look more like Loki, which... maybe. moving and acting like the Player sounds acceptable. as long as it can still be visually distinguished by Players as a Decoy rather than the actual Loki.

 

How would it do damage, if it's only a projection?  It would only appear (to enemies) as if was really attacking them.  It wouldn't last "forever" either, because of the time restriction.  It would only last as long as the time limit permitted, unless Loki went down or went out of range.  And how would you get confused between the real Loki & the Decoy?  The entire Decoy (even weapons) would still be Loki's power color.  That is one way DE has already differed Loki's ability from Mirage's.  Also, the Decoy would only move so far as to mimick Loki's movements, but it would actually be walking around with you like a spectre.  That would make it too much like Mirage's ability.  I don't think you know how a Holoprojector works.

[(PSN)forty_FOKELS]

Irradiating Disarm is arguably Overpowered. with the frantic pace of Warframe, it's probably okay, but it makes Disarm even more ridiculous.

Disarm is only affected by Range and Power Strength. Power Strength only affects how much Damage it deals to Enemies which have no Weapons to Disarm from to start with, such as Infested.

otherwise, just Range.

the Stun and Target resetting of Disarm is powerful enough without Mods affecting it. if you need more, you can always cast it more often.

 

Thanks for the RD info.  I'll make sure it max & equip Irriaiting Disarm on my RD build.  I already have maxed Overextended/Stretch mods, so that will help too.

[Scherhardt]

How would it do damage, if it's only a projection?  It would only appear (to enemies) as if was really attacking them.  It wouldn't last "forever" either, because of the time restriction.  It would only last as long as the time limit permitted, unless Loki went down or went out of range.  And how would you get confused between the real Loki & the Decoy?  The entire Decoy (even weapons) would still be Loki's power color.  That is one way DE has already differed Loki's ability from Mirage's.  Also, the Decoy would only move so far as to mimick Loki's movements, but it would actually be walking around with you like a spectre.  That would make it too much like Mirage's ability.  I don't think you know how a Holoprojector works.

Then it would be better if they just rework Decoy > Doppleganger. 

Doesn't mimic Lokis movement but moves like a spectre.

Doesn't deal/take damage but will make a really annoying target distracting enemies. Duration should be around 15-40 seconds.

Dopplegangers and the real one can't be more than 30m apart or the doppleganger will disappear.

 

Would be awesome if Radial Disarm gets a rework too.

Forced Decoy - Makes ally/enemy get targeted.

Has unlimited cast range. The target has 20m radius of Lure/decoy status. Duration preferably 10-25 seconds.

After its duration or if the target is killed, it will deal radiation procs around its radius.

Power in use until target is killed or duration ends.

Can be cancelled if cast on an ally by pressing button again.

 

Again sorry for such a random idea.

[taiiat]

Decoy would walk around as per the Player's movements

no thanks, i'd rather Decoy stay where i put it, attracting Enemies to where i want them to go, rather than basically RNG because you can't stand still for extended periods in this game.

use Decoy to attract or distract attention towards it, in a different direction than the Players. bonus points if it's not shootable unless they walk around an obstacle or something, to increase how long it's effective.

and yes, if Decoy was indestructible, it would be Overpowered. you'd cast it, all or almost all Enemies would attack it until the Duration runs out.

not being destroyable would also remove any sort of tactical placement needed, just place it in the middle of a group of Enemies, and now you've got almost a minute of Enemies that will ignore the Players.

meaning forever, because of the dirt cheap Energy cost. it's basically free to cast it. so it lasts forever unless you trip and fall and all of your Energy falls out of your pockets.

also, Decoy is capable of IPS Status Effects, Impact and Puncture working as normal, and Slash Status for DoT of 1.

[Archwizard]

Then it would be better if they just rework Decoy > Doppleganger. 

 

Augments, man.

 

Augments.

[(PSN)forty_FOKELS]

no thanks, i'd rather Decoy stay where i put it, attracting Enemies to where i want them to go, rather than basically RNG because you can't stand still for extended periods in this game.

use Decoy to attract or distract attention towards it, in a different direction than the Players. bonus points if it's not shootable unless they walk around an obstacle or something, to increase how long it's effective.

and yes, if Decoy was indestructible, it would be Overpowered. you'd cast it, all or almost all Enemies would attack it until the Duration runs out.

not being destroyable would also remove any sort of tactical placement needed, just place it in the middle of a group of Enemies, and now you've got almost a minute of Enemies that will ignore the Players.

meaning forever, because of the dirt cheap Energy cost. it's basically free to cast it. so it lasts forever unless you trip and fall and all of your Energy falls out of your pockets.

also, Decoy is capable of IPS Status Effects, Impact and Puncture working as normal, and Slash Status for DoT of 1.

 

sry, supposed to have been *wouldn't.  got to remember to proofread, thanks.  If the Decoy was walking with you it would be too similar to Mirage. and again, it would only last the full minute if you stayed within range.  It also *wouldn't change how enemy aggro works.  going back to my original post, I just don't understand how a "hologram" or "projection" would actually take or deal damage (status proc).  Also, that it *would be better if the "projection" actually "projected" what was really happening.  I really think Loki is the most well-rounded warframe.  I'm just saying he could be better.

Edited April 16, 2015 by (PS4)forty_FOKELS