Retune *all* The Frames! (11/19: Wildfire)

[Aquasurge]

guys, you may want to check out the ideas for blade storm on this thread. genius way to make it less nauseating for players.

 

oh and BTW the warframe passives got data-mined. the thread on Reddit got deleted but we have this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2rxld6tdTM

 

Edited May 8, 2016 by Aquasurge

[Aquasurge]

8 hours ago, taiiat said:

i think it's perfect actually - basically only Ice Eximus have Ice Damage, and Electric Eximus & Sapping Ospreys Electric Damage (Corpus Snipers are also Electric Damage unless that was changed). very few Enemies having these Damage Types is actually perfect. they're already the two most popular types.

so then the moderate number of Fire Enemies and okay number of Toxin Enemies, would give Players more reason to want to use those Modes.
if you mix that with being able to change your Element on the fly, you'll see Players actually tactically choosing what Element to use (for more than just resist, that's just one part) for different situations.

again, it's perfect that very few Enemies do Ice or Electric Damage in general - it helps balance out the Elemental choices better.

yes +1

[KingSolir]

8 hours ago, Archwizard said:

Just to throw a wrench in that, how many enemies do we have dealing Cold damage? How many factions deal Toxin or Heat damage? How effective is Electric damage already?

See, the push for Frost or Ember to have a passive resistance to elements was born out of knowing that the primary element types are infrequently used (thereby allowing them to measure up against the very slight boosts provided by other passives), and the statuses are the bigger nuisances anyway. Balancing Chroma in any way around that is... essentially just there for flavor.

for the singular elemental type's like frost, ember etc. i was just saying that it doesn't make sense for a frame that creates and basically is constantly standing in ice or flame to be damaged or receive status effects from their respective elements.

not that it would be so incredibly useful.

As for chroma having a team buff that could add elemental resistances and status ailment resistance, even for combo elements would be helpful. adding up to 45%ish chance to resist magnetic procs for your team would be pretty good in certain situations.

though this is all unnecessary my biggest problem with elemental ward is still that aura's are just less effective buff delivery systems than something like rhino's roar, not to mention its just visually annoying and it would only get worse if all you did was increase this aura's range. 

[Archwizard]

On 5/8/2016 at 10:39 PM, UndeadGunman said:

though this is all unnecessary my biggest problem with elemental ward is still that aura's are just less effective buff delivery systems than something like rhino's roar, not to mention its just visually annoying and it would only get worse if all you did was increase this aura's range. 

Looks like they heard ya. EW just got an augment to have allies retain its effects after leaving the radius.

Today also included improvements to and an augment for Oberon's Renewal; I'm going to be a little busy the next couple days, but if anybody has any feedback on whether this made Renewal less annoying, I'd certainly like to hear it.

[RealPandemonium]

Yay more bandaid mods!

[taiiat]

12 minutes ago, Archwizard said:

Looks like they heard ya. EW just got an augment to have allies retain its effects after leaving the radius.

ugh.
even more emphasis on that Chroma is super easy and cheap to simply be a walking brick, but being able to be a Co-Op Player and help your friends, share things with them, or anything that's Co-Op... requires huge investment and sacrifice of most of what makes Chroma Chroma.

*sigh*

[Sajochi]

Just going to redact this whole thing then.

Edited May 12, 2016 by CrazyCortex
People are hard to please

[taiiat]

12 minutes ago, CrazyCortex said:

-snip-

thank you for explaining to me that an Augment works, rather than is non-functional. and that Elemental Ward works, rather than being non-functional.
i don't see how that is relevant to anything i said.

the big problem with Elemental Ward in regards to jolly Co-Op is that 12 Meters is tiny. removing a Mod Slot to 'fix' that, doesn't. it's a bandaid for a problem that's so simple to fix, that it should not cost a Mod Slot to do so.

all anyone asked for is for enough Range that Elemental Ward could actually be shared in any practical sense.
touching their Shield once and having praise the sun Jolly Co-Op last until their Phantom has completed its task is nice too, but more than what people have asked for (not that anyone would complain).

[Archwizard]

Yeah... unfortunately I have to agree here. While the EWard augment is a nice idea in theory, it'll be no easier to fit it into a build than, say, Stretch.

[BETAOPTICS]

On 5/8/2016 at 6:58 AM, Basilisk1991 said:

Really I would like to see them find some way to incorporate bounce into Bastille (Basically having it generates a column of reduced gravity for your allies and still slam enemies against low ceilings before stunning them)  and maybe have Vauban get a new second ability (Like a heavy turret or some form of mines?). Also to elaborate on something I mentioned ages ago when Ivara came out, maybe we could give you a few different setting for his Tesla grenades? Like instead of JUST having the default mode with random bolts shot out every 3 seconds you could get a setting that acts like an arc trap that deals constant damage to everything in a set range around it (With a decreased range/duration as a trade-off) or like the Sappers dropped by the Ospreys (with less single target damage but more predictable AoE). In addition I would like to see you get rewarded for actually getting the Tesla grenades attached to a target (Maybe they get hit with a shock every time the grenade shocks another enemy). 

I like your ideas of a turret/mines, I'd prefer a turret more. Seriously I remember back when Vauban was introduced as an Engineer, I was really hoping for and expecting for some kind of traditional turret ability for him and the only thing even remotely alike for him was the 1st ability of shock grenades. Heck, even Chroma is more engineer like in this way with his 4th ability. So yes please to the turret.

[tnccs215]

Renewal's augment is hindered by everything that hinders the ability itself. If there was no canceling at full health, the cooldown would be fair. If there is, than a 90 second cool down isn't, because you are now unable to survive past level 50.

oh well. Hardly anything new.

Edited May 13, 2016 by tnccs215
wtf children. why auto correct. why.

[Archwizard]

I spotted a rather inspirational old post recovered by Reddit today. I don't plan on lifting anything directly, but it has gotten me thinking.

Lately Reddit has been flooded with a lot of Oberon reworks, and I've been responding to several of them; I've felt they were all inadequate, simply adding more onto his kit to make it more complicated, without necessarily making him better at his job.

Ultimately, Oberon is supposed to be a Paladin... but due to the broad implications of this name, nobody's really gotten a clear image of what that means. I'm not ashamed to admit I haven't either.

When I originally suggested giving him things like an armor boost on his 2 and Puncture procs on his 1, the idea was that he would make up for his weaker healing than other healers by being a more proactive mitigator. However, I overestimated the maximum benefits of stacking such effects - or, perhaps, the devs overestimated what he received. Either way, it's universally agreed that what he received wasn't enough.

So. Starting over, and considering anew:

• Smite reworked: Oberon strikes the target with a bolt from the heavens, inflicting Blind and Radiation/Impact damage based on his melee weapon mods to the target and surrounding enemies within a small radius.
• Hallowed Ground replaced: Oberon increases his threat against surrounding enemies, compelling them to target him instead of his allies. Each enemy slain by Oberon under this effect will increase his health, shields and armor based on a percentage of their own for the remainder of the threat boost.
• Renewal reworked: While toggled active (and with no other limiters), Renewal produces a wide aura around Oberon, restoring allies' health, purging negative status effects and extending their bleedout durations as long as they remain within Range.
• Reckoning reworked: Enemies will be lifted in the air and slammed into the ground, receiving Radiation/Impact damage. Survivors are debuffed for a Duration, causing any damage they deal to be dealt to them as Radiation damage with a chance to inflict status. (No longer inflicts Blind or summons health orbs.)
• Passive: Oberon releases a blinding flash whenever his shields are broken.

Need some ideas on that pesky passive, of course. The one proposed on the devstream is pretty worthless to a paladin... Got it.

Unrelated to Oberon...

• Tail Wind no longer deals direct damage to enemies struck. Instead, it now leaves a stream of hostile winds along Zephyr's path for a Duration, inflicting Slash damage to enemies who pass through.

Edited May 15, 2016 by Archwizard

[Blakrana]

50 minutes ago, Archwizard said:

• Smite reworked: Oberon strikes the target with a bolt from the heavens, inflicting Blind and Radiation/Impact damage based on his melee weapon mods to the target and surrounding enemies within a small radius.
• Hallowed Ground replaced: Oberon increases his threat against surrounding enemies, compelling them to target him instead of his allies. Each enemy slain by Oberon under this effect will increase his health, shields and armor based on a percentage of their own for the remainder of the threat boost.
• Renewal reworked: While toggled active (and with no other limiters), Renewal produces a wide aura around Oberon, restoring allies' health, purging negative status effects and extending their bleedout durations as long as they remain within Range.
• Reckoning reworked: Enemies will be lifted in the air and slammed into the ground, receiving Radiation/Impact damage. Survivors are debuffed for a Duration, causing any damage they deal to be dealt to them as Radiation damage with a chance to inflict status. (No longer inflicts Blind or summons health orbs.)

Sounds good.

Perhaps rename Hallowed Ground something like 'Zeal' or 'Radiant Vigour'? Not too sure what'd be a good suggestion admittedly.

[Archwizard]

9 minutes ago, Blakrana said:

Sounds good.

Perhaps rename Hallowed Ground something like 'Zeal' or 'Radiant Vigour'? Not too sure what'd be a good suggestion admittedly.

I've been going with "Guardian Oath" (always apropos, as his role as a defender is the idea they really need to push harder), but I'm open to other suggestions.

Edited May 15, 2016 by Archwizard

[Blakrana]

11 minutes ago, Archwizard said:

I've been going with "Guardian Oath" (always apropos, as it's the idea they really need to push harder), but I'm open to other suggestions.

Fair. Something to see what suggestions might be, but Guardian Oath works well. Would the skill have the increased stats just vanish entirely when the duration expires, like Vex armour, or would they ebb away gradually? Certainly can see some interesting applications for the skill itself though; cast it and Renewal, Oberon can fight off enemies whilst allies have diminished threats so the HoT can do its work more easily, or people can focus on reviving due to having their back and all.

[Archwizard]

1 hour ago, Blakrana said:

Would the skill have the increased stats just vanish entirely when the duration expires, like Vex armour, or would they ebb away gradually? 

Generally I go with "Vanish entirely".

Thing is, I know people prefer the idea of built-up effects degrading slowly, since they might only enjoy the maximum benefits of it for a short time, but only the placebo effect makes it any better than saying you want to add a few more seconds onto the Duration (which, having a few more seconds of it at that peak effect is universally better anyway). The only way slowing the drop-off would matter is if A) it's unaffected by the ability's Duration, both so you can recast the effect during its drop-off and so negative Duration won't harm it and B) recasting the effect during the drop-off halts the degradation, allowing you to extend its upper limit without needing to build it up all the way.

The latter of which is unambiguously cheesy, and leaning on overpowered, while the former is niche left on its own.

As an alternative, you could, say, tap Reckoning, activate the ability and start Finishing/Smiting enemies while they're down so you have some benefits before they get back up. All you need is Rage to complete the circuit.

Edited May 15, 2016 by Archwizard

[taiiat]

it's nothing personal, i just don't approve of an Oberon that doesn't have Hallowed Eruption as a specialization choice to focus more onto Damage but less onto Utility.
Hallowed Eruption is an excellent example of Augments, because i'm actually opting out of some of the default functionality to instead get a different functionality.

1 hour ago, Archwizard said:

Thing is, I know people prefer the idea of built-up effects degrading slowly

it's a psychological thing. something trailing off feels better psychologically than immediately poofing.
it's basically a cosmetic thing, but those sorts of things are good psychological tricks to make people like things more (for basically no reason).

[Aquasurge]

2 hours ago, Archwizard said:

I've been going with "Guardian Oath" (always apropos, as it's the idea they really need to push harder), but I'm open to other suggestions.

i think the same fits Oberon's theme perfectly. love the suggested changes BTW. 

[Blakrana]

7 hours ago, Archwizard said:

Thing is, I know people prefer the idea of built-up effects degrading slowly, since they might only enjoy the maximum benefits of it for a short time, but only the placebo effect makes it any better than saying you want to add a few more seconds onto the Duration (which, having a few more seconds of it at that peak effect is universally better anyway). The only way slowing the drop-off would matter is if A) it's unaffected by the ability's Duration, both so you can recast the effect during its drop-off and so negative Duration won't harm it and B) recasting the effect during the drop-off halts the degradation, allowing you to extend its upper limit without needing to build it up all the way.

Agreed.

Really, as yet I don't think I've seen any benefit to degrading traits over time. Metamorphosis is meant to 'encourage' swapping forms, but so long as Equinox's other skills require build up...once you get your Pacify/Provoke values up, swapping isn't likely on the agenda. Personally I'd put a degrading trait on something of a berserker style skill, enforcing a need to keep up the tempo else the 'wounds catch up' perhaps. Though maybe I'm thinking too much in terms of Tabletops I've been involved with there.

All or nothing means needing to be aware of safe spaces when it gets close to expiring. Something that plays well into a supportive mindset.

[TheGrimCorsair]

10 hours ago, Archwizard said:

I spotted a rather inspirational old post recovered by Reddit today. I don't plan on lifting anything directly, but it has gotten me thinking.

Lately Reddit has been flooded with a lot of Oberon reworks, and I've been responding to several of them; I've felt they were all inadequate, simply adding more onto his kit to make it more complicated, without necessarily making him better at his job.

Ultimately, Oberon is supposed to be a Paladin... but due to the broad implications of this name, nobody's really gotten a clear image of what that means. I'm not ashamed to admit I haven't either.

When I originally suggested giving him things like an armor boost on his 2 and Puncture procs on his 1, the idea was that he would make up for his weaker healing than other healers by being a more proactive mitigator. However, I overestimated the maximum benefits of stacking such effects - or, perhaps, the devs overestimated what he received. Either way, it's universally agreed that what he received wasn't enough.

So. Starting over, and considering anew:

• Smite reworked: Oberon strikes the target with a bolt from the heavens, inflicting Blind and Radiation/Impact damage based on his melee weapon mods to the target and surrounding enemies within a small radius.
• Hallowed Ground replaced: Oberon increases his threat against surrounding enemies, compelling them to target him instead of his allies. Each enemy slain by Oberon under this effect will increase his health, shields and armor based on a percentage of their own for the remainder of the threat boost.
• Renewal reworked: While toggled active (and with no other limiters), Renewal produces a wide aura around Oberon, restoring allies' health, purging negative status effects and extending their bleedout durations as long as they remain within Range.
• Reckoning reworked: Enemies will be lifted in the air and slammed into the ground, receiving Radiation/Impact damage. Survivors are debuffed for a Duration, causing any damage they deal to be dealt to them as Radiation damage with a chance to inflict status. (No longer inflicts Blind or summons health orbs.)
• Passive: Oberon releases a blinding flash whenever his shields are broken.

Need some ideas on that pesky passive, of course. The one proposed on the devstream is pretty worthless to a paladin... Got it.

Unrelated to Oberon...

• Tail Wind no longer deals direct damage to enemies struck. Instead, it now leaves a stream of hostile winds along Zephyr's path for a Duration, inflicting Slash damage to enemies who pass through.

This retains his balance between offense, survivability, and support without sacrificing any or making him overpowered. I'm 100% on-board with it aside from the complete loss of a force-radiation proc in his kit for KO'ing auras. I'd really like to keep the forced Rad-proc on Reckoning and/or Smite as a way to disable auras. Actually, probably Smite (hell, make it a new Augment, IDK), as with this he really doesn't need mass confusion on top of everything else.

 

The blind from shield breaking... does that only happen when they break after being filled up to/past 100% capacity or anytime they hit zero, regardless of whether or not they had been previously recharged?

[tnccs215]

4 hours ago, Blakrana said:

Agreed.

Really, as yet I don't think I've seen any benefit to degrading traits over time. Metamorphosis is meant to 'encourage' swapping forms, but so long as Equinox's other skills require build up...once you get your Pacify/Provoke values up, swapping isn't likely on the agenda. Personally I'd put a degrading trait on something of a berserker style skill, enforcing a need to keep up the tempo else the 'wounds catch up' perhaps. Though maybe I'm thinking too much in terms of Tabletops I've been involved with there.

All or nothing means needing to be aware of safe spaces when it gets close to expiring. Something that plays well into a supportive mindset.

No, thats a Good idea. Berserker's survival should depend on the rate they kill, and that is a much better way of encouraging that than the terrible iteration of hysteria we have. Indeed, I ad that: I propose to make hysteria give you invincibility depending on the amount you kill, and this resistance sort of slowly drain out. Health would also be periodically drained, and much be gained through killing enemies.

As a side note yes, Equinox is awfully constructed.

Edited May 15, 2016 by tnccs215

[Archwizard]

8 hours ago, TheGrimCorsair said:

This retains his balance between offense, survivability, and support without sacrificing any or making him overpowered. I'm 100% on-board with it aside from the complete loss of a force-radiation proc in his kit for KO'ing auras. I'd really like to keep the forced Rad-proc on Reckoning and/or Smite as a way to disable auras. Actually, probably Smite (hell, make it a new Augment, IDK), as with this he really doesn't need mass confusion on top of everything else.

Blind/Radiation on Smite would probably not be too much - forced disable with high offensive properties, works.

8 hours ago, TheGrimCorsair said:

The blind from shield breaking... does that only happen when they break after being filled up to/past 100% capacity or anytime they hit zero, regardless of whether or not they had been previously recharged?

Any time the shields hit zero, the blind releases. This effect is on cooldown until Oberon's shields regenerate to any amount above 0 - including by the effects of his Guardian Oath each time he slays a shielded enemy. Could probably have the effect duration/range increased based on how much Shielding he lost since the last burst.

I wanted him to have a reason to pick up any of the health types. Easier to heal whenever he's fighting Grineer or Infested, easier to CC whenever he's fighting Corpus. Makes him much more dynamic and interesting, I think, but also increases the value of build variety (ie now you can swap out Equilibrium for Retribution).

8 hours ago, tnccs215 said:

No, thats a Good idea. Berserker's survival should depend on the rate they kill, and that is a much better way of encouraging that than the terrible iteration of hysteria we have. Indeed, I ad that: I propose to make hysteria give you invincibility depending on the amount you kill, and this resistance sort of slowly drain out. Health would also be periodically drained, and much be gained through killing enemies.

Hmm... what if... Hysteria simply staggered incoming damage? You still receive it, just at a slower rate (like a max of, say, 200 per-second, reduced by mods, with the duration of the DoT extending as you take damage), so you can heal it off? And of course, you're only able to heal by attacking...

Edited May 15, 2016 by Archwizard

[taiiat]

1 hour ago, Archwizard said:

Hmm... what if... Hysteria simply staggered incoming damage? You still receive it, just at a slower rate (like a max of, say, 200 per-second, reduced by mods, with the duration of the DoT extending as you take damage), so you can heal it off? And of course, you're only able to heal by attacking...

could certainly work. but not as bulletproof (not literally) as minimum Health 1, take Damage as normal, with the Life Steal on Hysteria.
as that doesn't fall too poop if Enemies stop coming(and then you get sniped by one Enemy over there by a few bullets), but still heavily mandates being active in Combat.

[tnccs215]

2 hours ago, Archwizard said:

 

 

Hmm... what if... Hysteria simply staggered incoming damage? You still receive it, just at a slower rate (like a max of, say, 200 per-second, reduced by mods, with the duration of the DoT extending as you take damage), so you can heal it off? And of course, you're only able to heal by attacking...

I was considering that exactly. I gt the idea with Rathuum's life leeching. Something like a bleeding effect, with a maximum per-tick value wouldbe cool. Now, either this damage would correspond to the damage taken being divided and distributed, or it should simply Always be there. Not sure.

Eitherway, making the ability much more expensive seems necessary. Call me cheese-hater, but i dont believe that an ability that makes you literally invincible should be one of the cheapest.

1 hour ago, taiiat said:

could certainly work. but not as bulletproof (not literally) as minimum Health 1, take Damage as normal, with the Life Steal on Hysteria.
as that doesn't fall too poop if Enemies stop coming(and then you get sniped by one Enemy over there by a few bullets), but still heavily mandates being active in Combat.

eh, the minimum health 1 ends up eraing the risk of dying, so I don know if it truly is preferable. I mean, if you are invincible, does it matter if you have 764 health or just 1?

[taiiat]

27 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

I mean, if you are invincible, does it matter if you have 764 health or just 1?

well, it means turning off your special mode is going to get you killed, as you'll instantly die.

with some other number adjustments, you can make that able to challenge the Player to be active in Combat or die. but not immediately, just snowballing their situation for an inevitable death.