Ash Vs. Loki (Who Should Be The True Starter Frame?)

[Shackram]

This is what all new players see when they hover over Loki as a starter frame:

 

 

"Desired by advanced players, Loki offers a variety of specialized reconfiguring abilities. The creativity of Loki's powers allows players to master the battlefield through manipulation."

 

 

Keyword: "Advanced Players"

 

By definition, new players aren't advanced players.

 

You don't have access to all the stuff you need to make an "advanced" frame shine when you start out.

[Deidaku]

Loki should stay. He's the 3rd branch of frame types. otherwise we'd get 2 damage dealers 

[Wahooo]

By definition, new players aren't advanced players.

 

You don't have access to all the stuff you need to make an "advanced" frame shine when you start out.

BUT new players don't have to all be skill-less morons either.  Plenty of players who know how to play an FPS or TPS can jump grab Loki as a starter frame and do just fine.

You don't need fully modded, all of the starter frames have similar shortcommings when it comes to the mods you get, but Loki has decoy and invisibility.  Used by someone that can learn how to use powers in a handful of missions and already knows how to use active cover, and can quickly aim and make headshots while moving Loki DOES start as a pretty bad &#! frame.

 

The real substitution should be Trinity for Mag.

 

Loki the advanced frame to control the battle field.

Excal the all around balanced frame

Trinity the support and healer frame.

[DecapitatingJim]

I chose Loki back in U7, when he was still of dubious usefulness, mostly because of mod limitations.

I have never once regretted that decision. It taught me, very quickly, how to survive and get around enemy attacks. He should stay as a starter, but like someone above me mentioned, the tutorial should cover all 3 frames. We don't need another damage based frame as a starter. 

 

Also Loki just kicks &#! because Loki master race amiright?

Edited March 27, 2014 by DecapitatingJim

[(PSN)TheShinigamiGod]

To me Loki has much more survivability than ash with invisibility and Radial Disarm

[Archistopheles]

By definition, new players aren't advanced players.

 

You don't have access to all the stuff you need to make an "advanced" frame shine when you start out.

 

Which will make video game nerds meme the "Challenge Accepted" picture before jumping into the game.

 

The point is that players know what they're getting into, so you can't say "Loki should be replaced on the grounds that he isn't noob friendly."

 

You need a different point-of-discussion if you're to convince anyone.

[Nampoosh]

I laugh at everyone who said something along the lines of "we don't need another damage frame as a starter".

 

Loki is the only frame that doesn't have some sort of direct damage ability, until you get to infested.

 

The only one.

 

Even Trinity has one(energy vamp), well 2 if you count link.

 

A Lato, Skana and MK1-Braton can only get you so far in the beginning. Especially for how difficult it can be for new players to build weapons and find/equip good mods. Have to grind for the few weapons you can buy with credits. Which can put off people who want to move through the star map.

 

I actually picked Loki as my starter, I started about a month ago. It is really hard to manage invisibility on a low level Loki without streamline. I ended up just buying a new frame with plat and sold my Loki.

 

I'm not going to say Loki is too hard of a starter frame (I am an avid Dark Souls player, I'm used to difficulty), but I can definitely see why others would say so. I am all for removing Loki as a starter frame since it could potentially make DE lose business which they would have to make up in other ways as well as create a better new player experience for those who would end up regretting picking Loki. Although I would say that the new player experience just needs an overhaul, especially Earth. But this is still beta so I can't complain too much.

[Archistopheles]

But this is still beta so I can't complain too much.

 

Poppycock... That hasn't stopped anyone here from complaining too much :3

[Chaosdreamer]

Loki. Yet this warframe should be for still marked advance, less health, durability, and I think armor and modding is harder.

 

More stealthy, even if Ash throws the stars, Loki is silent, even stopping gun fire.

 

Loki hard to mod? Duh you must be bad , it's the most easy , You do not need anything related to power ... Put rush , duration to your skill you are done , if you want more safety add shield but its kind of useless , being invisible with near to no cost is enought

[LGear]

 

Now the question is which frame is easier to master and is more approachable, Ash is a clear choice.

 

This is missing the point of why Loki is a starter: he's there so that new players have a choice of a completely different playstyle from Excalibur or Mag: a stealth utility unit that doesn't rely on raw damage to survive (something that's important later on). Despite Ash's stealth skills, he's still more a damage dealing assassin than a true stealth warframe. Having all three starters be mere damage dealers removes the variety from the lineup.

[Nampoosh]

This is missing the point of why Loki is a starter: he's there so that new players have a choice of a completely different playstyle from Excalibur or Mag: a stealth utility unit that doesn't rely on raw damage to survive (something that's important later on). Despite Ash's stealth skills, he's still more a damage dealing assassin than a true stealth warframe. Having all three starters be mere damage dealers removes the variety from the lineup.

Loki is the only non damage dealer in a game where dealing the most damage is the key to proceeding further into the game. 2/18 of the frames can actually go invisible with their own abilities. Stealth does not play a major role in the game right now. So why would you subject new players to rely on stealth in a non stealth game?

 

Also I think you are forgetting about Excalibur and Mag's utility and synergy. Sure they have abilties that just kill, but they also have abilities that keep them alive (Radial Blind and Shield Polarize) and work together quite well (Radial Javilen and Bullet Attractor). What does Loki add to this trio? Rush the objective before the other players are even halfway there? Stealth revive? Troll your team by switch teleporting them? Radial disarm? Sure, I'll give you that one (good luck spamming this as a new player). The only thing I could actually see Loki being useful for teams of brand new players would be his decoy and then you have to decide wether to distract the enemy for a few seconds or go invisible and save yourself due to a low energy pool.

 

Loki is a selfish frame. I would much rather see new players finding ways to interact with each other and find new ways for their abilities to compliment each other.

[123Olympian]

Loki hard to mod? Duh you must be bad , it's the most easy , You do not need anything related to power ... Put rush , duration to your skill you are done , if you want more safety add shield but its kind of useless , being invisible with near to no cost is enought

I am not bad at all. It's hard to mod for new players.

 

As most new players may only have the basic mods, or just care about health and shields before even noticing the usefulness of the other mods.

[DarkLizalfos]

Excalibur, Mag, Loki and Ash scale off their modding and equipment a bit. Initiates have terrible mods and equipment.

 

So the starters should be:

Dex Zephyr

Rhino Prime Vandal

Wraith Twin Valkyries

 

Wait, that doesn't solve Initiates getting screwed at all.

[AngelGuardcc]

Loki master race

[Kamal965]

I find it rather hilarious that people seem to think that Ash has more survivability than Loki. Believe it or not, Loki can be considered one of the best tank frames in the game, with him only missing out on the high HP/Shields. Decoy redirects enemy aggro, Invisibility stop enemies from targetting you, allowing you to recharge your shields and Radial Disarm completely negates ranged aggro. <--- Redirecting/Negating aggression is the proper job of a tank.

 

Loki can fit a LOT of roles for the newbies better than Ash ever could.

[achromos]

Loki is the only non damage dealer in a game where dealing the most damage is the key to proceeding further into the game. 2/18 of the frames can actually go invisible with their own abilities. Stealth does not play a major role in the game right now. So why would you subject new players to rely on stealth in a non stealth game?

 

Also I think you are forgetting about Excalibur and Mag's utility and synergy. Sure they have abilties that just kill, but they also have abilities that keep them alive (Radial Blind and Shield Polarize) and work together quite well (Radial Javilen and Bullet Attractor). What does Loki add to this trio? Rush the objective before the other players are even halfway there? Stealth revive? Troll your team by switch teleporting them? Radial disarm? Sure, I'll give you that one (good luck spamming this as a new player). The only thing I could actually see Loki being useful for teams of brand new players would be his decoy and then you have to decide wether to distract the enemy for a few seconds or go invisible and save yourself due to a low energy pool.

 

Loki is a selfish frame. I would much rather see new players finding ways to interact with each other and find new ways for their abilities to compliment each other.

 

Have you ever played on pluto?  Have you ever played in a T3 mission with enemys... oh say level 40, 50, 60... 80?  Those "damage dealing abilitys" especially rhinos 'stomp' become nothing more than wonderful CC, Oberons reckoning becomes more akin to making enemys trip and just making them angry, and even Ash's bladestorm becomes nothing more than a sturdy man-hug.  Seriously, as a loki in a 57 minute run [O2 was running low thanks to lotus .-.] I did TOP damage in a party full of rhinos.

 

After about level 30,40ish the stomp ability that was oneshotting enemys just stopped doing a thing as far as killing them, granted Stomp is a wonderful and very valuable CC in high end gameplay but a trend I've realized is even the most modded out damage dealing abilitys falter  around the mid 30's and if its not modded early 20's and if they don't have the added bonus of CC [like Rhino's Stomp] you might as well not even use them.

 

The BEST thing in this game is Utility, utility means options, options means better chances at survivability.  How can you deal 'uber' damage when you are on the floor in bleedout having a invisi loki res you :P?  Hell, most the times I do go into bleedout are because of MY OWN mistakes, like... grenades, In that 57 minute run I went down once, why?  didn't see a grenade that oneshot me from full to 0 as i was running up some stairs.

 

The ironic part about that is at that point... it was around 45 minutes in, the rhinos, some of them were having their iron skin broken relatively quickly.  Granted they were all great players but I'll take not being seen, heard and sniping heavy gunners in one shot or even just disarming them so they DONT kill my team-mates while a decoy makes them all bunch up in a good direction over 'damage dealing' ability's anyday because once you are down to it... its your primary, secondary, and melee that matter and what you do with the ability's at hand.

 

Disclaimer,  Loki IS NOT a god frame.  However he is "HARD-er" to use effectively, and as players are already having a hard time I think he should be moved out of the starter line-up as well in terms new player friendliness.  Not to say that some out there aren't smart or clever because I know there are a lot of people who are...  However I think Ash can be a introduction to Loki.  Heck if people really want loki they can still go for him and ash is 'flashy'  his bladestorm is a very fun and very effective [at lower-mid levels] bit ot eye-candy which will definitely be something enticing for newer players.  I do like ash he is one of my favorites so far, but my main go-to is and always will be loki.

Edited March 28, 2014 by Sibarian

[Nampoosh]

Have you ever played on pluto?  Have you ever played in a T3 mission with enemys... oh say level 40, 50, 60... 80?  Those "damage dealing abilitys" especially rhinos 'stomp' become nothing more than wonderful CC, Oberons reckoning becomes more akin to making enemys trip and just making them angry, and even Ash's bladestorm becomes nothing more than a sturdy man-hug.  Seriously, as a loki in a 57 minute run [O2 was running low thanks to lotus .-.] I did TOP damage in a party full of rhinos.

 

After about level 30,40ish the stomp ability that was oneshotting enemys just stopped doing a thing as far as killing them, granted Stomp is a wonderful and very valuable CC in high end gameplay but a trend I've realized is even the most modded out damage dealing ability falters around the mid 30's and if its not modded early 20's.

 

The BEST thing in this game is Utility, utility means options, options means better chances at survivability.  How can you deal 'uber' damage when you are on the floor in bleedout having a invisi loki res you :P?  Hell, most the times I do go into bleedout are because of MY OWN mistakes, like... grenades, In that 57 minute run I went down once, why?  didn't see a grenade that oneshot me from full to 0 as i was running up some stairs.

 

The ironic part about that is at that point... it was around 45 minutes in, the rhinos, some of them were having their iron skin broken relatively quickly.  Granted they were all great players but I'll take not being seen, heard and sniping heavy gunners in one shot and disarming them so they DONT kill my team-mates while a decoy makes them all bunch up in a good direction over 'damage dealing' ability's anyday because once you are down to it... its your primary, secondary, and melee that matter and what you do with the ability's at hand.

 

Disclaimer,  Loki IS NOT a god frame.  However he is HARD to use, and as players are already having a hard time I think he should be moved out of the starter line-up as well in terms new player friendliness.  Not to say that some out there aren't smart or clever because I know there are a lot of people who are...  However I think Ash can be a introduction to Loki.  Heck if people really want loki they can still go for him and ash is 'flashy'  his bladestorm is very fun very effective [at lower-mid levels] eye-candy which will definitely be something enticing for newer players.  I do like ash he is my favorite so far, but my main go-to is and always will be loki.

I'm slightly confused. Were you trying to refute what I was saying or reinforce it?

 

Loki is an excellent late game frame, I am not denying that. CC > Damage.

 

All I was trying to say is that Loki should be left for when players have enough experience to use him to his full extent instead of throwing him in at the start.

 

I'm sure you had really awesome fully modded weapons on that Pluto T3 Defense. That is something new players will not have for a very long time. I am not saying that Ash should replace Loki as a starter because Ash is a selfish frame as well. I want that neither of these frames be chosen from the start.

 

Keep in mind that my perspective is one of a brand new player completely unfamiliar with Warframe. And new players should be working together to get through things in a game that is meant to be played with squads of 4.

[achromos]

I'm slightly confused. Were you trying to refute what I was saying or reinforce it?

 

Loki is an excellent late game frame, I am not denying that. CC > Damage.

 

All I was trying to say is that Loki should be left for when players have enough experience to use him to his full extent instead of throwing him in at the start.

 

I'm sure you had really awesome fully modded weapons on that Pluto T3 Defense. That is something new players will not have for a very long time. I am not saying that Ash should replace Loki as a starter because Ash is a selfish frame as well. I want that neither of these frames be chosen from the start.

 

Keep in mind that my perspective is one of a brand new player completely unfamiliar with Warframe. And new players should be working together to get through things in a game that is meant to be played with squads of 4.

 

I was under the impression that you were saying that Damage dealing was more important than utility in the case of this issue [loki].  Other than that I was reinforcing the other points, [and it wasent a Pluto T3 defense, but that is besides the point.  T3 Survivals are fun :3]

 

I don't see ash as a selfish frame, he needs to stay with the group more than loki.  His 'stealth' can stun, which can contribute to the group as well as giving himself the ability to deal more damage.  His teleport can get him to downed players that would have otherwise died due to being too far and in bleedout.  His bladestorm can give him invincibility while in the earlier levels killing hordes of enemys IF used intelligently and his shuriken is a good damage dealing ability even in the upper mid tier of difficulty.

 

It's not the frames fault that players use them in a certain way though, what I'm saying is... 'any' frame can be selfish.  It's not the frame that is selfish per-say but the person operating it.  Loki is just the one that people like to slap around because he can easily get away with it.  Packs of enemys ahead?  Lolol ill just use my 28 second invis and stroll on through it.  Someones beating me to extraction?  I'll just 'switch' this up.  Ect.

 

I do agree that newer players should be working together and that is why I say loki should be removed, while this 'may' seem contradictory at the same time.  I think that removing the temptation to just invis and leave your team dead while you survive or just troll them using switch teleport and replacing it with a fun, flashy and fast paced warframe is a good idea.  Ash 'needs' his team, but he isnt 100% reliant if the player operating the warframe is skilled enough, though starting out I don't think that a ash can get its invisibilty high enough to just leave them behind if that is what you are worried about.

 

Though, if not ash then... Maybe Trinity?  Or Rhino, but then again he does not need anyone either way.

Edited March 28, 2014 by Sibarian

[SquirmyBurrito]

-snip-

 

There is a difference between a damage focused frame, and a frame that has damage dealing abilities. Frost (was) not a damage focused frame, yes he had damage dealing abilities. Trinity is not (normally) a damage focused frame despite being able to deal damage.

 

-snip-

 

Same as above.

[Nampoosh]

I was under the impression that you were saying that Damage dealing was more important than utility in the case of this issue [loki].  Other than that I was reinforcing the other points, [and it wasent a Pluto T3 defense, but that is besides the point.  T3 Survivals are fun :3]

 

I don't see ash as a selfish frame, he needs to stay with the group more than loki.  His 'stealth' can stun, which can contribute to the group as well as giving himself the ability to deal more damage.  His teleport can get him to downed players that would have otherwise died due to being too far and in bleedout.  His bladestorm can give him invincibility while in the earlier levels killing hordes of enemys IF used intelligently and his shuriken is a good damage dealing ability even in the upper mid tier of difficulty.

 

What I'm saying is... 'any' frame can be selfish.  It's not the frame that is selfish per-say but the person operating it.  Loki is just the one that people like to slap around because he can easily get away with it.  Packs of enemys ahead?  Lolol ill just use my 28 second invis and stroll on through it.  Someones beating me to extraction?  I'll just 'switch' this up.  Ect.

 

I do agree that newer players should be working together and that is why I say loki should be removed, while this 'may' seem contradictory at the same time.  I think that removing the temptation to just invis and leave your team dead while you survive or just troll them using switch teleport and replacing it with a fun, flashy and fast paced warframe is a good idea.  Ash 'needs' his team, but he isnt 100% reliant if the player operating the warframe is skilled enough, though starting out I don't think that a ash can get its invisibilty high enough to just leave them behind if that is what you are worried about.

 

Though, if not ash then... Maybe Trinity?  Or Rhino, but then again he does not need anyone either way.

Oh my bad, I meant to say survival.

 

Also, just for kicks reread what you wrote about Ash. Focus on the wording. Notice how you write that his abilities:

 

"giving himself the ability to deal more damage"

"give him invincibility"

and that he "needs to stay with the group"

 

Also I'm pretty sure his stealth bomb only has a second or two stun on it with a small radius. Which is nothing compared to something like Radial Blind.

 

To me it sounds like he is relying on the group while not contributing anything. This is why I call him selfish. I pointed out in one of my ealier posts that Loki does have abilites that contribute to the team, but from playing him myself I found it easier in sticky situations to stealth myself and hope my team would live, if not I would stealth revive and hope I didn't get downed in the crossfire.

 

I do agree with you that any frame can be selfish, but most frames have abilites that help everyone(in more ways than just getting to someone to revive). There are shields, damage buffs, heavy aoe cc, heals and decoys, that everyone can benefit from.

 

I think Trinity would be a better starter, but even another frame like Oberon or even Banshee could work.

[Nampoosh]

There is a difference between a damage focused frame, and a frame that has damage dealing abilities. Frost (was) not a damage focused frame, yes he had damage dealing abilities. Trinity is not (normally) a damage focused frame despite being able to deal damage.

 

 

Same as above.

Even if the frame's focus is not damage, those damage dealing abilities help new players progress while they struggle to build good weapons that will outdamage those abilities. Loki does not allow for this. The last thing I would want is players starting with a choice between Ember, Nova and Saryn. As just doing a bunch of damage with abilities does not really help them learn the game or help new players when it comes to later missions that actually require some sort of strategy.

 

There are only 18 frames right now, maybe there will be a release that provides a better mix of damage and utility that is easy for new players to pick up but still provide a skilled player to make it to end game material. But for right now I do not feel that Loki nor Ash fits that criteria

[MisterUltimate]

Loki is far more unique. The play style you need to master him is radially different from the rest of the frames, where as Ash plays very similar to Excalibur. First and fourth abilities deal damage, single target and multiple targets respectively. Second abilities have a stun effect dispite Smoke Screen's stealth utility, and they each have a mobility ability as their third ability. They aren't the same, but similar enough to make adding Ash more of a dilution than an enhancement to the starting line up.

 

Also, Loki isn't as hard as people say, and if you are creative, all four of his abilities are useful no matter the situation. Helpful to have a frame that will take you all the way to Tower III if you are on a budget and can't buy additional slots.

Edited March 28, 2014 by MisterUltimate

[quietcanary]

I think volt should go back but replace loki instead. He has completely different elements than either and frankly loki as a starter is just problematic. Either the player sticks with loki and gets a bloated ego or they quite him. I'm generalizing alot but so many noobs think they invented the switch teleport troll that I no longer play with inexperienced lokis. Anyway havent you heard? Volt is a potent alternative to gun play!

[SquirmyBurrito]

Even if the frame's focus is not damage, those damage dealing abilities help new players progress while they struggle to build good weapons that will outdamage those abilities. Loki does not allow for this. The last thing I would want is players starting with a choice between Ember, Nova and Saryn. As just doing a bunch of damage with abilities does not really help them learn the game or help new players when it comes to later missions that actually require some sort of strategy.

 

There are only 18 frames right now, maybe there will be a release that provides a better mix of damage and utility that is easy for new players to pick up but still provide a skilled player to make it to end game material. But for right now I do not feel that Loki nor Ash fits that criteria

 

I'm not sure if I agree or not (on damage abilities helping newbies). I have an alt account that I started with Mag on and I rarely get to use my abilities because I can't recoup energy fast enough. 

 

I think volt should go back but replace loki instead. He has completely different elements than either and frankly loki as a starter is just problematic. Either the player sticks with loki and gets a bloated ego or they quite him. I'm generalizing alot but so many noobs think they invented the switch teleport troll that I no longer play with inexperienced lokis. Anyway havent you heard? Volt is a potent alternative to gun play!

 

I think Volt encroaches upon Excal's territory.

[Koukiten]

Ash

All the way :|