How To Solve The Change From Stat Helmets To Non-Stat Helmets Without Penalizing New Players

[Xarteros]

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/224988-stat-helmet-blueprint-changes/

So, they want to let players keep their existing stat-bonus alternate helms, and all future helmets will be purely cosmetic.

What this does is make older players far more powerful, some of those helmet bonuses are actually insanely good. Why sacrifice the cool tactical feature of changing some of your stats around?

What I propose is this: Remove ALL stat bonuses from ALL helmets. Players who own the stat-helmets by the deadline instead receive 'Arcane Seals' for their warframes that confer the appropriate stat bonuses & penalties. This means you can wear whatever helmet you want, and get the stat bonus you want in a separate slot (Divide the helmet option in two, one for skins and one for Arcane Modules).

Later, the Arcane Seals could be released in drop tables, particularly from leaders/eximus, like Oberon's BP, or chance to drop from a boss instead of a mod, or as mission rewards, alert rewards etc. It also means they can make more Arcane Seals for the warframes, to let players tweak them a bit more for their playstyle, without forcing them to wear certain helmets, and without the need to make extra helmets for each stat bonus, since the bonus would now be separate from the skin. It lets DE work on helmet skins at whatever pace they want, without limiting the rate they can make new stat 'Arcane Modules'

I don't think it would be hard for DE to implement in a hurry, they'd just need to essentially copy the helmet slot, and make one for stat bonuses that don't change the skin, and one for skin changes that don't affect the stats. Should be easy =)

This means new players can farm the 'Arcane Seals' or whatever, so they aren't penalized for joining later (too much limited-time/exclusive content already), and have more to work towards.

I don't see how this idea could have any issue, it should be in the best interest of everyone.

EDIT: Additional idea: Make all of the Arcane Seals interchangeable between warframes. Instead of having 2 choices per warframe, you'd have the choice from all of the different stat changes from all of the warframes.

This would mean they wouldn't need to keep creating content to allow us to diversify, we'd just need to find and/or craft the Arcane Seal from warframe X to use on warframe Y. You could build your rhino with extra range from Mag's old coil helmet, in the form of the Arcane Seal. Maybe you want Rhino's Vanguard speed bonus on Saryn. It would make less work in the long run for DE, less repetitive farming for us, nice and easy system. If that would make too many warframes OP, they just need to tweak the bonuses (which I'd expect them to do anyway)

Edited May 2, 2014 by Xarteros

[Noble_Cactus]

Agreed. I'm not sure why they weren't moved to some kind of badge system like in your idea, really.

 

Heck, the modules don't even have to be visible. They can just be straight stat tweaks, saving modelers time that could be spent on other cosmetics.

Edited May 1, 2014 by Noble_Cactus

[McVolker]

I think this would work well, but it may overlap with Focus, depending on how that works. If focus is just cool perks, this wouldn't overlap, but if it is stats, it would. I just want to see all stats removed from helmets, for equality.

[Dtexas]

Or you know, they could have added a damn costume helmet slot. That way everyone wins. DE could add stats to all the helmets like they originally wanted. The only reason they stopped was because people complained about it the second gen helm stats.

 

Seriously, adding a simple costume helmet slot would have solved all the problems for this system.

 

Costume helmet slot: Any helmet in this slot is the appearance of your frame, overrides normal helmet slot for appearance. No stats added to frame.

 

Normal helmet slot: Any helmet in this slot has the stats added to the frame, this helmet in this slot is only shown for appearance if there is no helmet in the Costume helmet slot.

 

Its such a simple mechanic to make everyone happy and DE goes and makes it complicated and unnecessary.

[Austerity]

This really is a well thought out solution. It takes into account existing game framework, lore, etc. and also supplies a route for future development and expansion.

 

+1

[Sirabot]

God yes.

 

This means new players can farm the 'Arcane Modules' or whatever, so they aren't penalized for joining later (too much limited-time/exclusive content already), and have more to work towards.

 

It's shameful how they flaunt around exclusive stuff that penalizes new players.

Edited May 1, 2014 by Sirabot

[EliteRider]

I like the Idea, there are some helmets i have and would like to wear but some of them have negative effects i don't want my Warframes to have and they look really cool... Which kinda make me happy that none of Valkyr's alternate helmets have any effects, they're just so awesome!

Edited May 1, 2014 by EliteRider

[Xarteros]

Or you know, they could have added a damn costume helmet slot. That way everyone wins. DE could add stats to all the helmets like they originally wanted. The only reason they stopped was because people complained about it the second gen helm stats.

 

Seriously, adding a simple costume helmet slot would have solved all the problems for this system.

 

Costume helmet slot: Any helmet in this slot is the appearance of your frame, overrides normal helmet slot for appearance. No stats added to frame.

 

Normal helmet slot: Any helmet in this slot has the stats added to the frame, this helmet in this slot is only shown for appearance if there is no helmet in the Costume helmet slot.

 

Its such a simple mechanic to make everyone happy and DE goes and makes it complicated and unnecessary.

The only issue with using a 'costume slot' is that you are still limited to the stats of the current helmets. While I don't know what DE wants to expand on, I thought by having Skins separate from the 'Arcane Modules', DE could expand either at their own whim. They could add a third stat-set for each of the warframes really easily, without needing to design a new helmet for each.

[Xarteros]

Agreed. I'm not sure why they weren't moved to some kind of badge system like in your idea, really.

 

Heck, the modules don't even have to be visible. They can just be straight stat tweaks, saving modelers time that could be spent on other cosmetics.

Well, on that note It could actually be cool if it puts a little symbol on you somewhere, just something subtle. Definitely not mandatory, and it'd be something they'd work on down the track anyway.

 

I think this would work well, but it may overlap with Focus, depending on how that works. If focus is just cool perks, this wouldn't overlap, but if it is stats, it would. I just want to see all stats removed from helmets, for equality.

If Focus gives stat bonuses, it would overlap, but not drastically. I'm already suggesting equality by unlocking the 'Arcane Modules' for everyone to have. Just remember that all of the stat bonuses have penalties, and those could always get tweaked a bit to be more balanced if Focus makes them too OP =)

[SmokyBird]

Agreeing with this topic.

 

There are some helmets that I want to equip, but the stats are quite useless for me.

[VegetableBasket]

Oh look a perfectly reasonable solution that pleases everyone.

This has been suggested a thousand times. DE doesn't want to do it.

Why? I have no idea. DE doesn't do things that make sense very often. I can build 10 vapor spectres with 1900 conclave rating for less than the cost of one cosmic spectre with 1900 conclave rating. Who's idea was it to make that number a min and not a max? I'm ranting at this point, but, my point is that DE doesn't concern themselves with logic, and that's prevalent all throughout the design of the game.

Wow I'm getting cynical. But I'm constantly telling myself, with this game, "Because DE just decides what makes sense and does the opposite."

Edited May 1, 2014 by VegetableBasket

[Xarteros]

Edit: moved to OP

Edited May 2, 2014 by Xarteros

[Yazeth]

Yes, please!

[AuroraSonicBoom]

Having those stat bonuses apply to every frame would solve one of the worst umbalances in the game(vanguard rhino) since everybody could be 20% faster, putting Rhino back into the lower mid field when it comes to speed. Every other stat combo is less of an issue than this one, but they're still there so they have to be discussed as well.

 

While that solution is still not as good as just removing everything and being done with it, its far better than what we have now. Plus, those universal "perks" could be made available later through a different method, like crafting or whatever.

[SolarDwagon]

Okay, wow. I'm imagining the rage over Vanguard Rush Sprint Boost Loki's now XD (or tbh, even worse if it's volt).

 

Alright, amusing silly things like that aside, it's a brilliant idea, even if its not the first time I've seen either part of it.

 

Additional suggestions though:

1) Make sure that some of the more useful seals are common drops off  VERY common enemies, so that newbies will get SOME. You don't have to have everything to feel that you're on a level playing field, but if it takes 100 hours to get your first Seal, I would expect [justified] complaints.

 

2) While unlikely to happen, I think an appropriate change with this mechanic would be to change Seal pricing to the current cost of a helmet, and to drop helmet crafting price. Since right now, what you're paying for is as much the stats, as the helmet.

[SFkenny]

I don't see why we have to remove the stats like this at all. Personally it would be much easier to just have the stat of the helmet be a toggleable flag in the equip menu. If players like the design but don't want the bonus, leave it unchecked.

 

Boom. Problem solved. Someone at DE cut me a check.

[Xarteros]

Okay, wow. I'm imagining the rage over Vanguard Rush Sprint Boost Loki's now XD (or tbh, even worse if it's volt).

 

Alright, amusing silly things like that aside, it's a brilliant idea, even if its not the first time I've seen either part of it.

 

Additional suggestions though:

1) Make sure that some of the more useful seals are common drops off  VERY common enemies, so that newbies will get SOME. You don't have to have everything to feel that you're on a level playing field, but if it takes 100 hours to get your first Seal, I would expect [justified] complaints.

 

2) While unlikely to happen, I think an appropriate change with this mechanic would be to change Seal pricing to the current cost of a helmet, and to drop helmet crafting price. Since right now, what you're paying for is as much the stats, as the helmet.

Personally, I think bosses should all have a chance to drop some of them, as semi-rare loot. This would either drop in place of a mod (sometimes, not all the time), or would possibly drop in addition to the mod, with a semi rare chance. Maybe a few runs on Vor would get a new player an Arcane Seal, so by the time they get Seer, they have their first Arcane Seal. You'd get more progressively from bosses, maybe with the less-cool ones dropping more commonly than the more 'OP' ones, or it might be diversified more by enemy level or something.

[AuroraSonicBoom]

Okay, wow. I'm imagining the rage over Vanguard Rush Sprint Boost Loki's now XD (or tbh, even worse if it's volt).

 

TBH, it would be less of an issue because the bar would be raised for everybody(except Rhino) than the vanguard stat is now(exclusive to Rhino). People had to gear for rushing, meaning they would forego increasing their other stats, which at least gives it a semblance of balance. They could easily convert these stat boosts into an equipable gear piece. Dragon keys can reduce the speed, damage, shields and health of a player - no reason why another gear piece couldn't boost them.

[Killerdude8]

How about just Removing the stats from the helmets.

 

 

...and that's it.

 

 

Don't baby this thing along, Just drown it and be done with it.

[Xarteros]

How about just Removing the stats from the helmets.

 

 

...and that's it.

 

 

Don't baby this thing along, Just drown it and be done with it.

because that's boring. I think stats with penalties as well as bonuses (which need a bit more balancing imo) are great, and there aren't enough mods that would fill that gap. The bonuses are normally bad enough that you'd never want to waste a mod on anyway, so I think it's perfectly fair to keep the system instead of wasting it completely. 

Edited May 3, 2014 by Xarteros

[Monolake]

Half the helm stats are random and imbalanced to begin with, so getting rid of them completely would be healthier for the game. 

Then add the stats to the frames that REALLY need them  and make extra mod option separately, w/o this legacy of poor design. 

[MechaKnight]

So, I just got an epiphany and tacked it onto this week's Hot Topics threat. I think some of you may like it. Most of you, even.

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/225912-may-2nd-community-hot-topics/

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/225204-how-to-solve-the-change-from-stat-helmets-to-non-stat-helmets-without-penalizing-new-players/

There's one I found, first page of the Warframes & Abilities section.

 

It's a complex alternative system, but it can appease many players who want both looks and stats, and allow new players to acquire the stats by a new acquisition method. Meanwhile, swappable Arcane Seals would alleviate the problem of warframes being overpowered just because they posses helmet buffs that are way too imbalanced. Like Vanguard. It would also allow new ways to tweak warframes besides mods, if mod-space is tight.

 

Let's take the concept further. How about exchangeable warframe cores? For example, Rhino Prime has +10% movement speed from the Original Rhino, changing his sprint speed from 0.9 to 1.0 base. If this was a core that could be implanted into other warframes additively, it would be fair because everyone can use it. So if you don't want to reforma from your old Rhino to your new Rhino Prime, you can just swap the prime core into it. Or you can boost Saryn from 0.95 base sprint speed to 1.05 base sprint speed. Or even boost Loki's speed with an additive contribution of +10% sprint speed from the core you found in the void, and he'll have 1.35 sprint speed. He's still the fastest, and it's fair because everyone can use this Arcane Orokin Swift Core they found in the void on any warframe they have. Catchy, yes?

 

It's really a summary of what's in this thread already, made into a concise form for the post. It cross-links here.

 

I suppose the only problem I didn't think of was 1.25 base on Loki + 10 from Swift Core + 25 from Vanguard Core = 160 base speed on Loki. And if that was contributed by multiplying instead... and with Rush... Wow. He may lock the map by prematurely reaching areas before they've loaded. The door won't open. I've seen that a rare few times when a Rhino Prime dashes through invasion maps.

 

So ironically, this system would be fair for every Warframe, but some setups are literally game-breaking, like locking maps because the next room didn't load, or even crashing the user's client. And if that user was a host... it would be a migration. Hmm. I don't know what to think of all this.

Edited May 3, 2014 by MechaKnight

[Xarteros]

Half the helm stats are random and imbalanced to begin with, so getting rid of them completely would be healthier for the game. 

Then add the stats to the frames that REALLY need them  and make extra mod option separately, w/o this legacy of poor design. 

Well, I think it's a good system, to have stat bonuses and penalties for the player to choose. I agree, that many of them are either random or imbalanced, so all they need to do is tweak them a little. Rhino really doesn't deserve 25% movement speed for such a small 5% penalty to power strength. It's the sort of thing they could tweak really, really easily. Reduce the amount, or even make it Sprint-only speed, so you're more of a charging rhino, or whatever. 

Getting rid of the system completely just seems wasteful, when it has the potential to do a lot as long as it's separated from the cosmetic helmets.

 

 

So, I just got an epiphany and tacked it onto this week's Hot Topics threat. I think some of you may like it. Most of you, even.

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/225912-may-2nd-community-hot-topics/

 

 

It's really a summary of what's in this thread already, made into a concise form for the post. It cross-links here.

I don't agree with you for this point. First and foremost, only two Prime frames (Excalibur and Rhino) have a base stat increase currently, so the system isn't needed, and secondly; the prime frames are supposed to be better than their original counterparts. Eventually, I think DE have said that all prime frames will have minor stat advantages over their common counterparts, and they should remain within the Primes. 

I suppose they could make Orokin seals that are better than their arcane counterpart, but I'm not sure how I feel about that. Alternatively, it could be a special option for Prime frames to swap their inherent bonuses as Orokin seals, so only a prime frame can have an Orokin seal as well as the Arcane seal. This would mean you could trade your Excal Prime's shield recharge bonus for Rhino Prime's speed, but let your Excal keep his Pendragon Arcane Seal bonus as well. Could work, not sure what I feel about it though

[MechaKnight]

Well, I think it's a good system, to have stat bonuses and penalties for the player to choose. I agree, that many of them are either random or imbalanced, so all they need to do is tweak them a little. Rhino really doesn't deserve 25% movement speed for such a small 5% penalty to power strength. It's the sort of thing they could tweak really, really easily. Reduce the amount, or even make it Sprint-only speed, so you're more of a charging rhino, or whatever. 

Getting rid of the system completely just seems wasteful, when it has the potential to do a lot as long as it's separated from the cosmetic helmets.

 

 

I don't agree with you for this point. First and foremost, only two Prime frames (Excalibur and Rhino) have a base stat increase currently, so the system isn't needed, and secondly; the prime frames are supposed to be better than their original counterparts. Eventually, I think DE have said that all prime frames will have minor stat advantages over their common counterparts, and they should remain within the Primes. 

I suppose they could make Orokin seals that are better than their arcane counterpart, but I'm not sure how I feel about that. Alternatively, it could be a special option for Prime frames to swap their inherent bonuses as Orokin seals, so only a prime frame can have an Orokin seal as well as the Arcane seal. This would mean you could trade your Excal Prime's shield recharge bonus for Rhino Prime's speed, but let your Excal keep his Pendragon Arcane Seal bonus as well. Could work, not sure what I feel about it though

I posted my revision just as you posted. A problem is that with some Warframes, this stacking can be taken to insane levels. So when Loki Prime comes out and gets speed on Arcane and Orokin cores, and uses Rush mod, we may see some serious glitches.

[SolarDwagon]

I don't think you'll get any glitches-Volt Speed is already capable of about that level of boost without stacking, it just looks a bit funny.

The bigger issue is more the player side of the equation than the mechanical.