Why Fleeting Expertise Needs To Be Changed

[Seele]

When it was first released, Heavy Caliber increased recoil as well as damage. However the recoil penalty did not affect recoil-less weapons (Flux Rifle, Ignis, Synapse, Paris, Lanka, among others), effectively acting as another instance of Serration. This was confirmed to be unintentional in Warframe Prime Time - Episode 2 (9:40). The mod's effects were changed Update 10.4: it now gives an accuracy penalty instead of a recoil penalty.

-Warframe Wiki

So, as Rebecca said in the video, the recoil debuff on Heavy Caliber was changed to accuracy because there were some popular weapons which did not suffer a penalty from a recoil debuff, like the Flux Rifle.

 

I feel as though I'm insulting people's intelligence if I say anything further.

 

 

 

When it was first released, Fleeting Expertise decreased power duration as well as power cost. However the duration penalty did not affect duration-less powers (Molecular Prime, Rhino Stomp, Miasma, Antimatter Drop, Shield Polarize, among others), effectively acting as a superior instance of Streamline. This has not been confirmed to be unintentional. The mod's effects have not yet been changed as of Update 13.2.4.

 

I'm quite certain people's butts were hurt when Heavy Caliber was 'adjusted' and probably even more butts would be hurt by this, but this game needs some tough love. Just ask all the people saying it's too easy.

I'm not saying reduce the buff or increase the penalty. Do like you did with Heavy Caliber and make the penalty more universally applicable. Something that maybe not every power would suffer, but as it stands right now almost every 'ult' in the game, presumably the most powerful abilities each warframe possesses, is virtually unaffected by duration, or benefits from it being reduced.

 

Try to be civil but I have a maxed flame repellent equipped just in case.

Edited May 11, 2014 by Seele

[residente]

I don't like your idea but I respect it.

[koolen]

I really like it, perfect for loki

[SquirmyBurrito]

Just change it to debuff range...

[ProfessorRobledo]

Changing the debuff to Power Strength would unfortunately make it a foil to Blind Rage, but it's the best solution I see. People would still be able to use the crowd control aspects of their skills at reduced cost but not be able to completely cheese high level defenses for wave after wave.

Unfortunately, this isn't any better of a way to fix the problem. There are several warframes with abilities that aren't affected Power Strength just as there are warframes that aren't affected by the Duration penalty.

 

One other problem is the nature of the Corrupted Mods themselves. The warframe Corrupted Mods are made to act as a cycle so to speak. 

 

To explain:

 

Blind Rage gives: +Strength; -Efficiency

Fleeting Expertise: +Efficiency; -Duration

Narrow Minded: +Duration; -Range

Overextended: +Range; -Strength

 

Changing Fleeting Expertise to take away from Strength would break the way the mods balance each other. Beyond that, when maximizing warframes for long survival and defense missions, you stop caring about Strength on most abilities because you're after the CC rather than the damage of the ability.

 

I respect the idea that it's not "fair" per say (like Heavy Caliber pre-change), but changing it won't fix the mod. It'll only be broken in a different way. It's really an inherent problem with the entire set of warframe Corrupted Mods (barring Blind Rage. Everything loses with reduced efficiency) since the warframe abilities are all affected by Strength, Range, and Duration in different ways. 

[Deaths.Reap3r]

you change it to one thing, and it screws something else.

 

I really like it, perfect for loki

[RealPandemonium]

-Warframe Wiki

So, as Rebecca said in the video, the recoil debuff on Heavy Caliber was changed to accuracy because there were some popular weapons which did not suffer a penalty from a recoil debuff, like the Flux Rifle.

 

I feel as though I'm insulting people's intelligence if I say anything further.

 

 

 

 

I'm quite certain people's butts were hurt when Heavy Caliber was 'adjusted' and probably even more butts would be hurt by this, but this game needs some tough love. Just ask all the people saying it's too easy.

I'm not saying reduce the buff or increase the penalty. Do like you did with Heavy Caliber and make the penalty more universally applicable. Something that maybe not every power would suffer, but as it stands right now almost every 'ult' in the game, presumably the most powerful abilities each warframe possesses, is virtually unaffected by duration, or benefits from it being reduced.

Changing the debuff to Power Strength would unfortunately make it a foil to Blind Rage, but it's the best solution I see. People would still be able to use the crowd control aspects of their skills at reduced cost but not be able to completely cheese high level defenses for wave after wave.

 

Try to be civil but I have a maxed flame repellent equipped just in case.

FE makes radial nukes too powerful because radial nukes are too powerful.  Their damage is fine; the fact that they can kill hordes of enemies reliably and mindlessly without needing to be aimed or having any negative consequences or decision-making involved is the problem.  One could also argue that utility skills like Radial Blind are the most exploitable using FE, so changing the penalty to power strength doesn't address the core issue in the end, it just forces us to equip another corrupted mod in order to be able to nuke.  Power costs need to be overhauled in general.

[[DE]Momaw]

 

Changing the debuff to Power Strength (...) it's the best solution I see..

 

 

So instead of some abilities getting free efficiency because they don't use Duration,  you switch it to a different set of powers getting free efficiency because they don't use Strength. This is not solving anything.

 

Frankly I am not sure there is anything here to really solve. What is the actual specific objection to efficiency builds? That frames can use their abilities too often?  What is "too often"? What metric is being used to define the appropriate power frequency?

[Not_Oliver]

ok if fleeting expertise is +efficiency and -range or -strength...

 

Loki masterrace even more 

[ra9una]

I think it's fine.

[Seele]

Believe it or not I did consider Loki, the frame with probably the fewest energy problems in the game, when I suggested making it reduce strength.

 

It's clearly not the solution that's needed, as has been stated by ProfessorRobledo, it would just break it a different way, and what needs change is the energy system itself.

 

Different means to the same ends, I guess. As long as this mod stops granting godlike power for no cost beyond a mod slot and 11 capacity, I'll be content.

[SquirmyBurrito]

So instead of some abilities getting free efficiency because they don't use Duration,  you switch it to a different set of powers getting free efficiency because they don't use Strength. This is not solving anything.

 

Frankly I am not sure there is anything here to really solve. What is the actual specific objection to efficiency builds? That frames can use their abilities too often?  What is "too often"? What metric is being used to define the appropriate power frequency?

you change it to one thing, and it screws something else.

ok if fleeting expertise is +efficiency and -range or -strength...

 

Loki masterrace even more 

 

Loki has two abilities that are affected by range, he doesn't get by unscathed.

 

To all above, I propose FE get its debuff changed to a range debuff (obviously the other corrupted mods play musical debuff to divvy out the remaining ones). It is the best solution I see and it also ends up with very few frame abilities not being affected and ZERO frames getting by without at least two

 ability affected.

 

Ash- 4/4

Banshee- 4/4

Ember- 3/4

Excalibur- 3/4

Frost- 4/4

Hydroid- 2/3 (not sure about tidal surge, common sense says yes but wiki has no information)

Loki- 2/4

Mag- 4/4

Nekros- 2/4

Nova- 3/4

Nyx- 3/4

Oberon- 3/4

Rhino- 3/4

Saryn- 2/4

Trinity- 2/4

Valkyr- 3/4

Vauban- 2/4

Volt- 3/4

Zephyr- 4/4

 

Affected: 56

Unaffected: 19

Uncertain: 1

[VentiGlondi]

FE exposes energy system biggest flaw - it lets you spam any of your abilities.

 

At first it wasn't a problem because flow and streamline are rare. Not many people had those mods and the most you could get is two ults in a row.

But now it's reached ridiculous levels.

 

To be honest, if ults weren't spammable, then Molecular Prime could be called balanced and the other nukes would be severely underpowered.

Edited May 11, 2014 by VentiGlondi

[Psychosist]

I think cooldowns would better reduce the spammability of abilities than changing the effects of Fleeting Expertise.

[Zap15]

FE exposes energy system biggest flaw - it lets you spam any of your abilities.

 

At first it wasn't a problem because flow and streamline are rare. Not many people had those mods and the most you could get is two ults in a row.

But now it's reached ridiculous levels.

 

To be honest, if ults weren't spammable, then Molecular Prime could be called balanced and the other nukes would be severely underpowered.

 

Agreed.

 

I was discussing with my roommate, who plays Nova, and we were thinking that Molecular Prime would probably have been balanced if its Energy cost stayed at 100.

 

DE knew that Fleeting Expertise was a problem, which is why we have the capped 75% instead of the actual 90%.

Even with that, having ultimates cost 25 Energy can still be exploited. 

[sanj66]

 

Loki has two abilities that are affected by range, he doesn't get by unscathed.

 

To all above, I propose FE get its debuff changed to a range debuff (obviously the other corrupted mods play musical debuff to divvy out the remaining ones). It is the best solution I see and it also ends up with very few frame abilities not being affected and ZERO frames getting by without at least two

 ability affected.

 

Ash- 4/4

Banshee- 4/4

Ember- 3/4

Excalibur- 3/4

Frost- 4/4

Hydroid- 2/3 (not sure about tidal surge, common sense says yes but wiki has no information)

Loki- 2/4

Mag- 4/4

Nekros- 2/4

Nova- 3/4

Nyx- 3/4

Oberon- 3/4

Rhino- 3/4

Saryn- 2/4

Trinity- 2/4

Valkyr- 3/4

Vauban- 2/4

Volt- 3/4

Zephyr- 4/4

 

Affected: 56

Unaffected: 19

Uncertain: 1

 

the problem with this is this is just pure statistical, yes it may affect every frame, but the skill mechanism isnt considered, so while a frame might have 1 range skill vs a frame with 2, the actual mechanism or usefulness of that 1 skill can be driven completely into the ground by this and in a domino effect make the frame completely useless, for example rhino vs loki, 3 of rhino's skills are range, charge, roar and stomp, it greatly affects rhino especially with end game or high level endless survival, loki on the other hand yes it affects his teleport and radial disarm but it still makes him viable as he has infinitely scaling powers unaffected by range, same with current trinity blessing isnt range capped and she is still viable, valkyr is still viable, volt will be another frame hit very hard by this. so while the statistics will say yes every frame will be affected you have to look at how it is affected and how viable will it make a frame with the effect it imposes on all of their skills and overall viability and survivability.

[Cwierz]

Make every other corrupted mod reduce power efficiency. Fleeting expertise reduces max power to 75%

Ideas to toy with I guess.

[SquirmyBurrito]

the problem with this is this is just pure statistical, yes it may affect every frame, but the skill mechanism isnt considered, so while a frame might have 1 range skill vs a frame with 2, the actual mechanism or usefulness of that 1 skill can be driven completely into the ground by this and in a domino effect make the frame completely useless, for example rhino vs loki, 3 of rhino's skills are range, charge, roar and stomp, it greatly affects rhino especially with end game or high level endless survival, loki on the other hand yes it affects his teleport and radial disarm but it still makes him viable as he has infinitely scaling powers unaffected by range, same with current trinity blessing isnt range capped and she is still viable, valkyr is still viable, volt will be another frame hit very hard by this. so while the statistics will say yes every frame will be affected you have to look at how it is affected and how viable will it make a frame with the effect it imposes on all of their skills and overall viability and survivability.

 

I don't exactly understand what it is you're trying to say here. Maybe your formatting it killing my reading comprehension?

 

I don't see how this change could make a frame useless as Fleeting expertise's efficiency shouldn't be a requirement in the first place. If a frame needs FE to be viable it is in SERIOUS trouble and should be buffed immediately.

 

Loki doesn't really benefit from this change all that much so I'm not sure why people are even bringing him up. Here, I'll explain my reasoning:

 

With FE's current effect Loki is already capable of achieving an infinite invisibility loop via energy siphon. Removing the duration debuff from FE doesn't change this, all it does is further increase the duration and net energy gain. There is no step beyond perma invisibility. Having a longer lasting invisibility means little more than less times you have to press its cast button. However, this change WOULD prevent the extremely powerful Radial Disarm spam.

 

Rhino would be forced to choose between wide-range CC/Nuke for a normal/high price or low-range cheap CC/Nuke. This would apply to all nuke abilities. Trading spammability for their once amazing range. Charge wouldn't be hurt as a movement skill. Roar would have to choose between spammability and team viability.

 

Trinity's blessing is one of the few powers that escapes the change. But again, there is no step beyond perma blessing. Increasing it's duration means little.

 

No, Volt will be just as he would be without slapping a FE on. You seem to be under the assumption that frames HAVE to have FE to be usable. Volt (like every other room nuker/CC'er) will be forced to choose between spammability and range.

 

My change is by far the least complex and most affective of the ones I've seen. It offers a very real and reasonable trade-off, and is only 'exploitable' in situations where that exploitability already existed. The frame that is hit hardest by this change would be Saryn as she would no longer be able to use FE as a double buff corrupted mod (both the debuff and buff help her miasma). 

 

So, in short- Loki and Trinity can ALREADY abuse FE to achieve perma invisibility/blessing builds. The debuff being changed to something that doesn't affect those two abilities doesn't change anything in the grand scheme of things as permanent is permanent (even though that term isn't being used quite right).

 

No frame should require FE to be viable. If you feel any frame does I urge you to go create a thread about it and bring this to DE's attention.

Edited May 11, 2014 by SquirmyBurrito

[fatpig84]

Making FE affect range only brings more invisibility builds rather than disarm.

Which makes for MORE SELFISH play. This sets a VERY bad precedent.

 

An invisible loki does next to nothing other than bring more aggro to his team mates and the cryopod, which is why vet players dislike Loki in the first place. So do not EVER suggest changes that makes game play more selfish.

 

Also radial disarm is NOT that powerful. Because you and your team still has to kill the mobs.

It doe not wipe out mobs in a 50m radius, it only merely makes them easier to channel around.

 

 

Just keep the current duration and increase it's point cost (like 15?).And allow skills like Rhino stomp, M Prime and co be affected by duration. I don't get why they are special snowflakes and immune to the timer as well.

 

Trinity will be re-worked so less worries about invulnerability.

Edited May 11, 2014 by fatpig84

[SquirmyBurrito]

Making FE affect range only brings more invisibility builds rather than disarm.

Which makes for MORE SELFISH play. This sets a VERY bad precedent.

 

An invisible loki does next to nothing other than bring more aggro to his team mates and the cryopod, which is why vet players dislike Loki in the first place. So do not EVER suggest changes that makes game play more selfish.

 

Also radial disarm is NOT that powerful. Because you and your team still has to kill the mobs.

It doe not wipe out mobs in a 50m radius, it only merely makes them easier to channel around.

 

 

Just increase the duration nerf to 75% so perma immune builds will consider FE much less often.

And allow skills like Rhino stomp, M Prime and co be affected by duration.

I don't get why they are special snowflakes and immune to the timer as well.

 

This change does NOT affect Invisibility builds in the grand scheme of things. Perma invisibility is already achievable. So increasing the length of those periods of invisibility does not matter. How many times am I going to have to say that in this thread? Someone just tell me so I can get it out of the way. Do I need to type it in different colors? Different sizes? What? There's only so much I can do with BBcode.

 

Your assertion that vets don't like Loki is unfounded. I am a vet (not the oldest obviously) and Loki is my favorite frame. YOU do not speak for all of us.

 

Radial Disarm would still be usable and viable. You'd just have to put a little more thought into your builds (not really). 

 

Increasing the debuff and having to go through and tweak powers by arbitrarily adding duration effects is not nearly as easy or successful a fix as the one I have proposed. If Rhino Stomp was affected by duration it would turn into another Miasma/Chaos in that players would willingly toss on a maxed FE for the positive changes that would come from less duration.  M Prime being affected by duration wouldn't matter much either as it would still be spammable and could be tossed back up whenever it wears off. 

 

A range debuff is a hard nerf. It requires actual thought for MOST frames (Trinity, Valkyr, and a vortex-Vauban being the only exceptions I can think of right now). 

 

My change is the best one suggested so far as it changes things and forces players to think.

 

Edit: I don't understand why you've seem to have latched onto Radial Disarm and the effect my change would have on it as if that is the main purpose of this thread. 

Edited May 14, 2014 by [DE]Drew

[Archwizard]

I prefer the idea of them just changing abilities like Miasma and Molecular Prime to be affected by Power Duration, since they actually have a duration.

 

Don't really care about Antimatter Drop and Shield Polarize, given that one's slow and more difficult to use effectively, while the other's only outrageously powerful in a niche environment.

[fatpig84]

 

Radial Disarm would still be usable and viable. You'd just have to put a little more thought into your builds (not really). 

 

 

And to remind you, I main Loki as well.

And I only use FE for Radial disarm, my other 2 Loki builds (thief build and perma invisibility) do NOT use FE in any form.

 

But fine, I will analysis by the numbers.

 

Cutting down his disarm range to 38 meters (assuming a 60% range nerf and a maxed setup) is fine. Because you get to keep a 12 second invisibility for only 12.5 energy and you can RD far more safely than before. So you are making the RD Loki even stronger.

 

Right now a full blown 50m RD Redirection Loki only has a 5+ seconds (50 FE + 25 SL) of invisibility or 10 if you drop redirection for continuity (and keep rush). The current system keeps him balanced.

 

But if you are not a full on RD loki but using a balanced setup, then what happens?

So your changes will actually buff the RD Loki to possibly extremely Op levels but end up killing a ton of other frames and Loki builds in the process.

 

And don't talk about Trinity, she will be getting re-worked.

Edited May 11, 2014 by fatpig84

[Stefanovich]

I suggested it before, and I'll suggest it again.

Have Fleeting Expertise decrease Warframe Ability Casting Speed by 40% base and 50/60/70/80/90%.

So even with Natural Talent, you'll be slower than a Arcane Thrak Rhino crouching along cryo floor.

Have fun casting Blessing.

[fatpig84]

I suggested it before, and I'll suggest it again.

Have Fleeting Expertise decrease Warframe Ability Casting Speed by 40% base and 50/60/70/80/90%.

So even with Natural Talent, you'll be slower than a Arcane Thrak Rhino crouching along cryo floor.

Have fun casting Blessing.

 

I actually agree this is a lot better than what squirmy suggest.

But probably with tweaked numbers, at max you should triple the time it takes to cast something.

 

So something like Rhino stomp will take nearly 4 seconds to cast.

Edited May 11, 2014 by fatpig84

[Cwierz]

I suggested it before, and I'll suggest it again.

Have Fleeting Expertise decrease Warframe Ability Casting Speed by 40% base and 50/60/70/80/90%.

So even with Natural Talent, you'll be slower than a Arcane Thrak Rhino crouching along cryo floor.

Have fun casting Blessing.

This is a very good suggestion. However I am fairly certain you meant INCREASE, as decreasing would make it faster.

 

I have also seen suggestions for the corrupted mods besides FE, they should reduce efficiency to prevent abuse much in the same way this currently is.