[13.5.0 Ash] Teleport Finishers Need To Be Optional.

[shut]

As many of you are aware, Update 13.3.0 introduced a new "Finisher prompt" on enemies, allowing Ash to use Finishers on the enemy that he just Teleported to by simply pressing the melee button.

The nice thing about Finishers is that, by default, they deal a meaty 6x damage by default (4x stealth multiplier * 1.5x finisher multiplier), and are very reliable at one-shotting enemies. Finishers now also feature invulnerability frames, and also have the added benefit of enemies around you being unable to detect your presence while you're doing them.

The bad things about Finishers are that, as expected, they're slow. Like, painfully slow.

Prior to 13.5.0 (when the Blade Storm finisher-prevention glitch was fixed), I and many other Ash players were able to play in Melee Mode by Teleporting to an enemy and quickly obliterating everything around it before moving on to the next group. This basically effectively extended a melee weapon's range to nearly 50m, allowing for a hugely mobile and, most importantly, viable playstyle.

As of 13.5.0, this is no longer possible.

By the time players are done the forced Finisher, the group surrounding the target already walked away, so extra time must be spent chasing them around whenever Teleport is cast. To add insult to injury, Teleporting to a target that you would have one-shotted anyways, or Teleporting to a target while cloaked (in which you could have normally made several hits of 400% in the time it takes the Finisher to do one slow hit of 600%), means that unless you deliberately allow the target to survive, you are using a version of Teleport that is a direct downgrade to what it was prior to 13.3.0.

The problems with Finisher attacks are not Ash-exclusive. While Finishers do their job quite well with recent updates, all Frames will still find themselves doing an unwanted Finisher every once in a while, when an ordinary swing would have sufficed.

Of course, there are scenarios in which the Finisher is hugely beneficial (e.g. during gunplay in general while uncloaked), so I wouldn't suggest something as silly as the complete removal of the Finisher prompt. However, due to its massive negative hit on both DPS and mobility while cloaked or in Melee Mode, we need to actively be able to choose whether we want to use the Finisher.

__________________________________________________________________

My suggestion:

(pick 1)

1. Allow "Finishers" to be separately keybound to a button of the player's choice.

Players who want to actively choose when to use Finishers have their wish granted, and those who think the current system is fine are entirely unaffected. Everybody wins.

2. (Much easier to implement) Move Finishers from "Melee / Quick Melee (E)" to "Contextual Use (X)". It would take some getting used to for some players, but the end result is hugely beneficial to all.

3. Prevent Rank 2- Teleport from triggering Finisher prompts, so Ash players can choose to avoid Finishers entirely if they so please. However, this does not solve the problem for other Frames.

Please consider this, DE. It's a small tweak that would go a long way for all Frames.

__________________________________________________________________

(TL;DR: Finishers are nice, but they slow us down too much a lot of the time. We need a way to choose whether to use regular strikes or Finishers on prompted targets.)

^{The original thread, written before 13.3.0:}

UPDATE: As of U13.3.0, the Teleport->Finisher mechanic has been implemented into the game.

After testing it out, this is what I found:

Pros:

- It complements gunplay quite nicely, with stealth multipliers (4x, does not stack with Smokescreen) on top of the small Finisher multiplier (~1.5x default, tested on Amphis). It basically hits like a truck.

- Enemies do not target you, or acknowledge your existence, while teleporting or performing the finisher.

- You are invulnerable while doing the finisher.

Cons:

- Only certain animations will stack with the Channeling multiplier. (e.g. the Amphis' back finisher will stack with Channeling, but its frontal Finisher will not.)

- It's slow. So slow, in fact, that by the time the animations on most weapons finish, normal attacks would have already done most of that damage. Smokescreen'd attacks could have done that damage several times over, making this change nearly a straight nerf when Smokescreen is used.

- It makes you immobile. It's worse than I imagined; teleporting to a group and then quickly wiping it out can no longer be used as a viable tactic unless you deliberately allow the Teleport target to survive. The time it takes to kill the first target is just too long, allowing the other enemies to be far out of your reach by the time you're done.

The verdict: My point remains the same. It's a great addition to Ash and it complements gunplay very well. However, it has a huge negative impact on Melee Mode gameplay.

The change should not be reverted, but we need a way to disable it.

From: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/230632-warframe-ability-changes/

Ash - (coming around a few more corners, likely to follow the rest of the above changes at a later week):

-Teleport: Enemies are now open to finishers when teleported to, giving it more aggressive utility in order to make Teleport more appealing for use in combat.

Right now, my playstyle (and, I assume, that of many other Ash players out there) revolves mainly around Teleporting to enemies, quickly shanking them to death (usually in one hit unless it's a 30+ Heavy Grineer; always in one hit when cloaked), and then massacring the group around them before teleporting to the next tight gathering of enemy troops and repeating. This is a very fast, mobile playstyle that allows a melee weapon's crowd-destroying capabilities to truly shine.

My worry is that once the Teleport target becomes prone to finishers, this playstyle will slow down and, contrary to the goal, actually become less effective. We'll have to stand on the same spot and watch a quick stab-a-single-target-to-death animation play, which greatly hinders mobility and the efficiency of the strategy.

While the finisher animations are indeed infinitely faster than they were before U13, they still don't match the speed of a single melee swing. Which means that if the single melee swing can one-shot the enemy (which is almost always the case when cloaked, save for the strongest of enemies), the finisher animation will be a direct downgrade to what we can do now. The only workaround is to either let the enemy live, or to prioritize only the enemies that can survive a melee swing (which, when Smokescreened, is incredibly rare).

My suggestion:

- Go full speed ahead with this change. I can certainly see why using Finishers on Teleport targets would be valuable, and more effective than the current system. UPDATE: It happened. They went through with it.

BUT

- Restrict the Finisher prompt to Rank 3/3 Teleport only. This way, players who wish to play as they do now (i.e. being able to freely teleport around and slash things the way they want, in the order they want, at the pace they want, as they please) can simply equip a Rank 2/3 Teleport and do so.

or

- Give us the option to rebind our Finisher key to "Contextual Use" instead of "Melee". This way, players can choose when they do or don't want to take advantage of the Finisher, greatly improving the potential versatility of Teleport and all Finisher-related scenarios.

Edited June 2, 2014 by SortaRandom

[Thirsty_Pickle]

It's just like Valkyr's Paralysis.

 

It costs bothing [5 energy] and stuns enemies and opens them up to cool finishers.

[shut]

It's just like Valkyr's Paralysis.

 

It costs bothing [5 energy] and stuns enemies and opens them up to cool finishers.

 

Please read the entire thread.

The issue is that it hinders mobility.

[Thirsty_Pickle]

The issue is that it hinders mobility.

 

Barely, Given you have full energy / team of energy siphons, you'll be able to hop to the next person in the crowd.

[shut]

Barely, Given you have full energy / team of energy siphons, you'll be able to hop to the next person in the crowd.

 

Again:

 

Please read the entire thread.

[Seele]

Another thing is that finishing moves often tend to deal less than simple spam attacks, which I am still yet to understand.

 

Do finishers not use base melee damage mods or what? It's ridiculous. Do this showy, flippy, slicey assassination attack and then a big yellow 47 pops up, followed by a stream of white 300s as you mash E.

[Dreykan]

I totally agree with op here. I'd rather use a "smart" teleport. Imagine that your aimpoint thingy could somehow scan whats ahead, and teleport you to a hostile in the area scanned and not directly in the aim, because right now if you need to quickly close the gap between an enemy that's not really close, and you are only equipped with a melee, is a pain in the arse to aim at them

[Icymountain]

Seems logical. Perhaps as Teleport gets leveled up, it gets extra 'bonuses' along with the increased range.

 

First rank, nothing.

Second rank, instantaneous teleport, you disappear from your original location in a cloud of smoke and immediately rematerialise behind your target. 

Third rank, turns you invisible for a second.

Fourth rank, opens the enemy for a finisher. 

[Casardis]

Finisher should just have been really, really strong to begin with. They are already very situational to pull, so there's no reason they should be weaker than my basic attacks.

 

And there should NOT have a bandaid mod that increases finisher damage.

Edited May 13, 2014 by Casardis

[CelsiusPrime]

I don't see how this slows you down. (and yes I read the whole thing)   I read it as meaning that the target will be staggered for a second that will leave you open to do a finisher or a normal swing that will do normal damage.

[shut]

I don't see how this slows you down. (and yes I read the whole thing)   I read it as meaning that the target will be staggered for a second that will leave you open to do a finisher or a normal swing that will do normal damage.

 

They're both activated by the same button. You try to do a normal attack on a Finish-prompted target, and a finisher pops up instead. Basically the same issue that Stealth Attacks have (cuts straight into the stealth animation if you hit from behind, even if you're already halfway through a swing), but from all directions so there's no avoiding it.

 

To my understanding, anyways. I'll have to test it out a bit more.

Edited May 13, 2014 by SortaRandom

[Stefanovich]

This change would #%*¥ over anyone (which is probably 99% of players) who have already maxed Teleport. It would just force people who want this change not to affect them to grind for a rare ability mod.

How about we wait and see how this plays out, then see whether we should buff Finishers or tweak Teleport again?

[Vaskadar]

I've started to think there's nothing inherently wrong with teleport, at all. Perhaps increase the stun duration of the target and make the targeting hitbox a lot bigger (for obvious reasons).

 

There's a problem with finishers, however, which deal worse damage than the regular attack. Finishers should deal 4x the normal damage.

 

I was going to make a thread on this, and then you beat me to it.

Edited May 13, 2014 by Vaskadar

[Stefanovich]

Personally, I just think Teleport needs free-aim.

Ya know, like every OTHER mobility skill?

[Vaskadar]

Er, switch teleport can be excluded from that list.

[HAYABU5A]

these are well considered ideas, ash players would definitely benefit from having a choice 

[Vargras]

Non-issue. Valkyr's Paralysis does the same thing, and more often than not, I end up just meleeing them to death while trying to just get the finisher prompt instead.

 

I fail to see how this would be any different. Perhaps you should wait to play it before talking about how it's such a huge nerf.

[Xiquara]

an easy way to fix would be, bind 'use' key for executing finishers and let do 'melee' key just do melee.

 

(sry for bad english)

[Dalu__Ka]

I always thought Teleport would greatly benefit from a small AOE stun instead of the single target stun.

[Replacement]

Better solution: Tie the "Finisher" prompt to the "Use" button instead of Melee.  Your choice on how to strike.  This would improve the game for several not-Ashes as well.

[shut]

an easy way to fix would be, bind 'use' key for executing finishers and let do 'melee' key just do melee.

(sry for bad english)

Better solution: Tie the "Finisher" prompt to the "Use" button instead of Melee.  Your choice on how to strike.  This would improve the game for several not-Ashes as well.

This would be a huge improvement. Players have been asking for this for Stealth Attacks especially for ages now.

If they implemented this, I would skip around my room in glee.

Edited May 13, 2014 by SortaRandom

[HansJurgen]

 

From: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/230632-warframe-ability-changes/

 

 

 

Right now, my playstyle (and, I assume, that of many other Ash players out there) revolves mainly around Teleporting to enemies, quickly shanking them to death (usually in one hit unless it's a 30+ Heavy Grineer; always in one hit when cloaked), and then massacring the group around them before teleporting to the next tight gathering of enemy troops and repeating. This is a very fast, mobile playstyle that allows a melee weapon's crowd-destroying capabilities to truly shine.

 

My worry is that once the Teleport target becomes prone to finishers, this playstyle will slow down and, contrary to the goal, actually become less effective. We'll have to stand on the same spot and watch a quick stab-a-single-target-to-death animation play, which greatly hinders mobility and the efficiency of the strategy.

While the finisher animations are indeed infinitely faster than they were before U13, they still don't match the speed of a single melee swing. Which means that if the single melee swing can one-shot the enemy (which is almost always the case when cloaked, save for the strongest of enemies), the finisher animation will be a direct downgrade to what we can do now. The only workaround is to either let the enemy live, or to prioritize only the enemies that can survive a melee swing (which, when Smokescreened, is incredibly rare).

 

 

 

My suggestion:

 

- Go full speed ahead with this change. I can certainly see why using Finishers on Teleport targets would be valuable, and more effective than the current system.

 

BUT

 

- Restrict the Finisher prompt to Rank 3/3 Teleport only. This way, players who wish to play as they do now (i.e. being able to freely teleport around and slash things the way they want, in the order they want, at the pace they want, as they please) can simply equip a Rank 2/3 Teleport and do so.

 

 

I think you are confusing stealth attack (default key X) with finisher attack activated via melee attacks (default key E), which is much faster.

 

The current teleport and any follow up attack is already slow because of it sloppy mechanic, and being required to hack at beefer targets for a fair bit, opening you up to stun or knockdown attacks.

 

They way I see it, the patch will make the teleport function like a single target version of bladestorm, granted you are required to quickly hit E once the teleport animation is over. Considering the huge potential damage bonuses of finishing attacks, I think most targets will die instantly.

 

I also think this will give us a reason to add finishing mods to our melee weapons, instead of killing blow (for instance).

 

Personally, I'll wait and see how the change works for me. Nevertheless, your suggestion has merit, and it would be cool if it was implemented.

Edited May 13, 2014 by HansJurgen

[OTTERMATIC]

 

 

There's a problem with finishers, however, which deal worse damage than the regular attack. Finishers should deal 4x the normal damage.

 

I think finishers should be a guaranteed kill. They take a lot of time to pull off, and leave you vulnerable the entire time.

[Drathin]

It's just like Valkyr's Paralysis.

 

It costs bothing [5 energy] and stuns enemies and opens them up to cool finishers.

Ya and it's horrible. You paralysis a group of them but can only kill one...if it kills it. 

[VentiGlondi]

I think finishers should be a guaranteed kill. They take a lot of time to pull off, and leave you vulnerable the entire time.

I've never been damaged while pulling off a finisher, which leads me to believe, AI is programmed not to attack you when you're using those.