Ash: Press 4 To Ninja!

[DeadScream]

How about the necessity of line of sight to mark a target with Blade Storm ? 

The skill would also benefit from enemies being marked on the radar. 

 

We would keep our "no effort" cinematics but we would have to think twice before using the ability.

 

I don't know, just a suggestion.

[shut]

hopefully they don't go through with their shadow clone plan... with the insane damage he does now a faster ult would seem over powered. Bladestorm is in a great spot now. It's not how I would have buffed it but it definitely gets the job done. now just make teleport not suck and he will be perfect.

To be completely fair, the main reason for Ash being buffed was that "Even if he one-shots everything he touches with Blade Storm, it's still so slow that he would be more help to his squad just using a gun and killing stuff faster that way", meaning that it's very seldom going to be worth the 100 energy, especially if you're trying to defend something. Nothing's really changed in this regard with the new Bleed mechanic.

It looks overpowered in Exterminate because enemies are all spaced out and there's nothing that you need to defend. However, Blade Storm won't be killing dense mobs any faster than the widely-spaced units we see in the video, and given its one-by-one nature, enemies will still be shooting in unwanted places even with the speed boost.

I welcome a speed boost for Blade Storm. It has tons of offense, but, unlike other nukers like M Prime, there is nothing that assists teammates in any way (other than removing their enemies one-by-one from the realm of the living, of course), which is a fine balancing factor.

Edited May 26, 2014 by SortaRandom

[Charismo]

I almost can hear it. Those cryies... Do you ?

NERF ASH !

NERF ASH !

NERF ASH !

 

But really, it's ok. I'm all for it.(to keep it as it is) At least someone can have fun.

And no I do not play  ash, he is disgusting.

 

Hey look at you go, you didn't read the thread! You have literally no idea what people here are talking about. Like, not just in a vague way, but like in a trying to get your oil changed at a pre-school kinda way. And while you didn't have time to even read even the title of the thread, you did have time to edit your post to let everyone know that you don't even play Ash.

[Rabidbluedeath]

To be completely fair, the main reason for Ash being buffed was that "Even if he one-shots everything he touches with Blade Storm, it's still so slow that he would be more help to his squad just using a gun and killing stuff faster that way", meaning that it's very seldom going to be worth the 100 energy, especially if you're trying to defend something. Nothing's really changed in this regard with the new Bleed mechanic.

It looks overpowered in Exterminate because enemies are all spaced out and there's nothing that you need to defend. However, Blade Storm won't be killing dense mobs any faster than the widely-spaced units we see in the video, and given its one-by-one nature, enemies will still be shooting in unwanted places even with the speed boost.

I welcome a speed boost for Blade Storm. It has tons of offense, but, unlike other nukers like M Prime, there is nothing that assists teammates in any way (other than removing their enemies one-by-one from the realm of the living, of course), which is a fine balancing factor.

But a speed boost doesn't solve any problem you mentioned, just speeds up the process. Even if it were near instant you can still kill just as fast with an Ogris. If you want bladestorm to have teamplay it needs CC capabilities like ive suggested in numerous threads. Also bladestorm can't look overpowered when enemies are spaced out, you wont be getting your full 15 targets. As it is right now I don't think it is overpowered either. Its stronger than every other ult in damage but it has the duration as a drawback. To me it seems balanced now. Plus how would the combo mechanic work if you have numerous clones killing things? Does each clone have its own combo counter? Is it calculated at the beginning of the ability? Why bother coding the badass animations if you're not going to see them? If they speed it up they need to reduce damage, or buff all other pure damage ults to a similar level. Powers should be balanced against other powers, not X enemy on Y map at Z wave/min.  

[shut]

But a speed boost doesn't solve any problem you mentioned, just speeds up the process. Even if it were near instant you can still kill just as fast with an Ogris. If you want bladestorm to have teamplay it needs CC capabilities like ive suggested in numerous threads. Also bladestorm can't look overpowered when enemies are spaced out, you wont be getting your full 15 targets. As it is right now I don't think it is overpowered either. Its stronger than every other ult in damage but it has the duration as a drawback. To me it seems balanced now. Plus how would the combo mechanic work if you have numerous clones killing things? Does each clone have its own combo counter? Is it calculated at the beginning of the ability? Why bother coding the badass animations if you're not going to see them? If they speed it up they need to reduce damage, or buff all other pure damage ults to a similar level. Powers should be balanced against other powers, not X enemy on Y map at Z wave/min.  

 

- The speed boost speeds up the process, meaning that you're getting more kills per second (save for Vortex+Ogris situations, with stupidly-dense mobs and an AoE weapon) than you would with a weapon, and you can get back to manually defending everything much sooner. Of course, it's not a magical solution to the flaws of Bladestorm, but that's fine-- they went from "fatal, mission-sacrificing flaws" to simply "weaknesses", which is exactly how it should be. After the speed boost, Bladestorm's weaknesses will be significant, yet not quite at the level of "You will fail the mission if you press 4", and will be balanced against other Ults quite well this way.

 

 

- I'm fairly certain the clones will share a combo system with you. So you have a 1.5x multiplier, your clones deal 1.5x damage. Your clones hit an enemy 2 times, you get +2 to your combo meter. (If past updates are any indication, though, chances are DE will mess this up on release and then fix it later. XD)

Edited May 27, 2014 by SortaRandom

[TopSpeed]

i like the vid but to kill all enemy with ulti is kind of watching a movie over and over  .. . . .

[Charismo]

i like the vid but to kill all enemy with ulti is kind of watching a movie over and over  .. . . .

 

Directly from the OP,

 

Well it looks cool and does the damage,  But frankly I would love to have more interactive gameplay instead of pressing 4 and watching the animation.   Would it be possible to have any control during the ultimate?

 

Edited May 27, 2014 by Charismo

[Rabidbluedeath]

- The speed boost speeds up the process, meaning that you're getting more kills per second (save for Vortex+Ogris situations, with stupidly-dense mobs and an AoE weapon) than you would with a weapon, and you can get back to manually defending everything much sooner. Of course, it's not a magical solution to the flaws of Bladestorm, but that's fine-- they went from "fatal, mission-sacrificing flaws" to simply "weaknesses", which is exactly how it should be. After the speed boost, Bladestorm's weaknesses will be significant, yet not quite at the level of "You will fail the mission if you press 4", and will be balanced against other Ults quite well this way.

 

 

- I'm fairly certain the clones will share a combo system with you. So you have a 1.5x multiplier, your clones deal 1.5x damage. Your clones hit an enemy 2 times, you get +2 to your combo meter. (If past updates are any indication, though, chances are DE will mess this up on release and then fix it later. XD)

Where you see a flaw I see an important aspect to balancing the game. Right now it has a pretty big drawback to the damage it does, this is not a flaw. The drawback gives the ability an element of "Only push 4 if you need to and when you can afford to", unlike (after the toggle update) every other ultimate in the game. This is not a flaw with this ability, its a balance problem with other abilities and the game in general from my perspective. People all over the forums complain about "Push 4 to win" gameplay being the only gameplay. Yet when an ultimate isn't push 4 to insta kill the room people seem to get upset. The community can't seem to figure out what it wants as a whole. That is part of the reason when parts of the community go "We want X to change" and it would cause very apparent balance issues I tend to not like it. Mainly because after it happens 5-10 threads pop up going "X change that we asked for sucks now that we actually play it", "It wasn't implemented the way we wanted", "This change is terrible DE what were you thinking", or "it's way to OP change it back." I'm willing to bet speeding up bladestorm (im assuing to ~5 seconds unless you're not doing the animations its all clones in which case basically instant) will have the same effect. 

 

I also think you're exaggerating a huge amount when you say its a "fatal, mission sacrificing flaw." I can't remember an instance where I have failed a mission because I used bladestorm, and use Ash almost all the time I play. Its only a detriment in Defense, Mobile Defense, and Rescue. Even then you are not forced to use the ability, as long as you actually think about when you use it you should never have a problem. Your other 3 team mates should be defending the objective as well. Ash isn't a tanker/defender and him being the sole defender of an objective (unless solo) is a pretty bad idea. Furthermore if you're trying to defend something Ash wouldn't be an ideal choice even with the proposed speed boost, you're still not bringing any utility/team play to the table. While the argument "You will fail the mission if you press 4" is technically a valid one in some very specific instances, it just barely holds up when you look at it.

[ReizoRyuu]

now just make teleport not suck and he will be perfect. 

 

Lol the change to teleport makes it insanely beastly how it is already, it can be used to cancel pretty much any action and it puts the enemy in a finisher state, so you can literally teleport from enemy to enemy landing finishers without pause.

[shut]

Where you see a flaw I see an important aspect to balancing the game. Right now it has a pretty big drawback to the damage it does, this is not a flaw. The drawback gives the ability an element of "Only push 4 if you need to and when you can afford to", unlike (after the toggle update) every other ultimate in the game. This is not a flaw with this ability, its a balance problem with other abilities and the game in general from my perspective. People all over the forums complain about "Push 4 to win" gameplay being the only gameplay. Yet when an ultimate isn't push 4 to insta kill the room people seem to get upset. The community can't seem to figure out what it wants as a whole. That is part of the reason when parts of the community go "We want X to change" and it would cause very apparent balance issues I tend to not like it. Mainly because after it happens 5-10 threads pop up going "X change that we asked for sucks now that we actually play it", "It wasn't implemented the way we wanted", "This change is terrible DE what were you thinking", or "it's way to OP change it back." I'm willing to bet speeding up bladestorm (im assuing to ~5 seconds unless you're not doing the animations its all clones in which case basically instant) will have the same effect. 

 

I also think you're exaggerating a huge amount when you say its a "fatal, mission sacrificing flaw." I can't remember an instance where I have failed a mission because I used bladestorm, and use Ash almost all the time I play. Its only a detriment in Defense, Mobile Defense, and Rescue. Even then you are not forced to use the ability, as long as you actually think about when you use it you should never have a problem. Your other 3 team mates should be defending the objective as well. Ash isn't a tanker/defender and him being the sole defender of an objective (unless solo) is a pretty bad idea. Furthermore if you're trying to defend something Ash wouldn't be an ideal choice even with the proposed speed boost, you're still not bringing any utility/team play to the table. While the argument "You will fail the mission if you press 4" is technically a valid one in some very specific instances, it just barely holds up when you look at it.

Blade Storm has cost me a grand total of one mission in my time of playing Ash, so what I said is of course an exaggeration. You see my point, though; time spent picking off one unit at a time is time that isn't spent defending the objective. XD

But yeah, I agree with the rest of your post. I'd like to see a bit more skill and brainwork be involved in WF gameplay, rather than the comparatively mindless explosionfest that it's trending towards right now. XD

[dandin3]

well the high dmg its nice .

cuz its slow skill and mid rang with no side effect. 

its pure dmg skill .

 

and lol if it  be faster that  will be op ... no?

[i play that 4 pres game style with ash before the update.. and i agree it's boring at some point... but its do the job]]

[doommoose22]

builds for max power strength, cries op.

[shut]

builds for max power strength, cries op.

Slapping on a single Intensify mod is not even close to "max power strength".

EDIT: He also didn't cry about anything being OP.

Edited May 28, 2014 by SortaRandom

[Monolake]

 make bladestorm into a hysteria style alternate melee toggle mode where anytime you attack you automagically teleport to the nearest enemy in line with your swing.  basically bladestorm as it is now but under player control :D

 

'

 

Yeah something like that would be cool and more interesting to play - bladestorm  under player control

[Beas7ie]

His ultimate needs to be changed to something like this.

 

[RahuHordika]

Yeah something like that would be cool and more interesting to play - bladestorm  under player control

But nope! Let's go with the ridiculous clone thing instead!

Bladestorm needed a buff, but I honestly feel there could have been so much more and much better things that could have been done, and that would have kept the cool cinematic factor of the ability.

[RealPandemonium]

RIP good Blade Storm, I enjoyed you for a week.

[drMightyPotato]

RIP good Blade Storm, I enjoyed you for a week.

What? O_o From what ive seen its even better.

[RealPandemonium]

What? O_o From what ive seen its even better.

They made it build up less melee combo per cast and lessened its survival boost by cutting the animation down so much.  Now it's another generic nuke (never mind all the bugs, but those will be fixed.)

[Nagisawa]

They killed my Blade Storm.

 

Sad Turtle...

[dandin3]

kill??

now it's fast and stronger... 

 

im in love with the new upgrade o.o

[Nagisawa]

kill??

now it's fast and stronger... 

 

im in love with the new upgrade o.o

It's just faster, but it's still as not viable in groups.  See, unlike Rhino's Stomp, Excalibur's Radial Javelin or Nova's Molecular Prime, which work almost immediately, and affects whole groups of mobs within a circular radius,even working through obstacles for Nova and Rhino, Bladestorm works sequentially, one on one, one after another, one at a time.  Which means it'll be slower, and people can still pick off targets while it's active, making it less than useful.

 

The issue is not Ash's Ultimate.  The issue is that this game has no Solo/Single Player component.  Or rather a horribly badly implemented one.

[dandin3]

i see your point.

but well the damage is dealt its the bonus.

all frame have plus and minus.. i think .

ash as a ninja build for dmg and utility.

crowd control its for other frame. 

[shut]

They made it build up less melee combo per cast and lessened its survival boost by cutting the animation down so much.  Now it's another generic nuke (never mind all the bugs, but those will be fixed.)

I don't see the problem with the survival thing? You can still achieve the exact same effect by destroying everything in the room and then standing and doing nothing for ten more seconds while your shields recover. If there are survivors or faraway enemies, then just move behind cover or cast Smokescreen and sit there without doing anything.

Boom. Pre-13.5 effectiveness returned.

[Rabidbluedeath]

But nope! Let's go with the ridiculous clone thing instead!

Bladestorm needed a buff, but I honestly feel there could have been so much more and much better things that could have been done, and that would have kept the cool cinematic factor of the ability.

 

 

RIP good Blade Storm, I enjoyed you for a week.

 

 

They killed my Blade Storm.

 

Sad Turtle...

 

Look, people that don't like it. To bad I was about the only person defending it taking 15-17 seconds before the change. Not much help now.

 

 

i see your point.

but well the damage is dealt its the bonus.

all frame have plus and minus.. i think .

ash as a ninja build for dmg and utility.

crowd control its for other frame. 

 

 

So where is ash's minus now? IT DOESN'T EXIST ANYMORE! Yay for horrible sense of balance! To many people whined like children that he had a real minus to his damage ability so DE changed it. It having no CC isn't a minus if Ash is a dmg/utility frame as you say (the speed change did more harm than good to his utility if you ask me). So now we have yet another insta-nuke that is almost OP, almost. It still has the target limit of 15 at least, but now radial javelin is a joke compared to this. So now Radial Javelin will be whined about until it gets a rework, which will make something else a joke and the cycle will go on and on and nothing will really get fixed. This changed may have helped Ash in the short term. But it hurt warframe, and possibly ash, in the long term.

 

I don't see the problem with the survival thing? You can still achieve the exact same effect by destroying everything in the room and then standing and doing nothing for ten more seconds while your shields recover. If there are survivors or faraway enemies, then just move behind cover or cast Smokescreen and sit there without doing anything.

Boom. Pre-13.5 effectiveness returned.

Except he still has a hard target limit of 15 so you aren't clearing a room, still just the 15 people (unless that was removed and they didn't say). So if there are more than that, which there would be in the situation you are getting hit so hard you need to use it to recharge shields, you are still going to get wrecked after it ends. Pre 13.5 Effectiveness not returned :/.