Forget Better Ai - We Need Better Dumb Enemies

[ThePresident777]

Much is being assumed to justify forgetting about smart AI.  It is being assumed that smart AI:

1)  is too slow to act

2)  is exposing itself to danger

3)  that there are not multiples of them such that you get to see the advanced behavior over time

4)  never gets lucky.

5) cannot be relevant in a short amount of time.
 

It is also assumed that the Tenno are always all mighty.

 

Conditions matter because they heavily impact, if not determine, success and failure.  There are many conditions that DE can use to create much choice and variety to improve customer/player satisfaction and appeal to a broader audience.  The conditions for the success of smart AI are being ignored in favor of unfounded pessimistic assumptions.

 

Smart AI could take the form of a distributed system.  The more nodes in it's network, the smarter it is.  Nodes can be replenished.  There could be environmental conditions that weaken the Tenno such that the AI are then advantaged.  There are many possibilities to reap benefit from.

 

A case for smart AI is not a case against dumb AI.  A case for dumb AI is not a case against smart AI.  These are two separate things that succeed and fail based on supporting conditions.  A multitude of conditions is what gives a game choice and variety.  And unjustifiably narrow view is being promoted in this thread.  So, although, I can see value in better dumb AI and you like to vote for it, I can't do that under unacceptable conditions or trade offs.

[PeripheralVisionary]

Although I do think that better dumb AI would be an improvement.  I also think that better smart AI would be an improvement therefore not worth forgetting.  The one size fits all perspective that better smart AI should be forgotten in favor of better dumb AI is what is preventing me from giving this OP a +1.  One size fits all is not conducive to variety and choice.

It's the truth. AI should come after mechanics. 

You can work with basic AI with good mechanics, but not the other way around.

[Recel]

I did some research on this a while back (U12?) and was surprised to find that the 100% perfect aimbot theory is either not true, or enemies have their accuracy values nerfed.

 

I don't remember the exact #s but what i found was the accuracy % was significantly affected by range. Like once you were over 15m away or something, most shots missed.

 

However, none of this matters if it's not evident to the player.

 

So, I agree that movement should have a significant effect on enemies ability to hit targets. Either way, anything that affects accuracy needs to be communicated to the player more clearly in game.

 

I personaly did similar tests in the game my self from time to time, and my experience is that mobs always aim at a zone or a box around your chest. You can see this mostly when you're partially in cover. But their weapons have a big cone of fire, so they tend to miss a lot, especially at range. Corpus are good test subjects for this as you can actually see the bullets, unlike Grineer, which also makes them feel less aimbot like, because of bullet travel time.

 

You can see the aimbot clearly on the Corpus crewman with the Flux rifle. If they can shoot that zone on your chest they will do so instantly, even if you aproach from behind, the beam will hit you before the mob finished turning around! You can't "shake it off" as he will keep the beam directly at one single point untill you move into cover which blocks the beam.

 

Edit:

Also, what DE doesn't seem to get that one mob that rarely apears, that can avoid dieing for a few seconds longer, doesn't do any good if there's no synerge between him and other mobs. The frost eximus is the only mob curently which has this, as cannonfodder pile up under his globe, letting them survive for longer too, giving them time to actually do something. But that's it for now.

Edited June 6, 2014 by Recel

[Innocent_Flower]

Well, that dev stream... 

 

most of the new enemy types look annoying. Then they were talking about the prosecutors as if they were successful? Wha? 

 

 

 

Then surfboard boss. Not only does that look like Hek-corpus, it looks silly, but also: Nobody likes weak spots on bosses where the rest of the boss is invulnerable. That's dumb. 

Edited June 6, 2014 by Innocent_Flower

[-SLX-J3tAc3]

Although I do think that better dumb AI would be an improvement.  I also think that better smart AI would be an improvement therefore not worth forgetting.  The one size fits all perspective that better smart AI should be forgotten in favor of better dumb AI is what is preventing me from giving this OP a +1.  One size fits all is not conducive to variety and choice.

I really wish people would stop it with that mindset and learn to think. Agreed, though I would include dumb AND smart AI COMBINED with greater unit variety. Refer to the latest devstream to see what I mean by unit variety.

Edited June 6, 2014 by -SLX-J3tAc3

[notionphil]

Well, that dev stream... 

 

The new enemy types look annoying. 

 

Riot MOA = awesome, at least he has a shield. Thank you!

 

Juggernaut (with frontal damage resist) = OK, we'll see, hopefully he telegraphs his shield bypassing rain.

 

every other enemy = one shot

 

all enemies = press 4, dead.

[CBAROG]

They said Prosecutors deflect bullets. Never noticed. 
But the new enemies look somewhat interesting. But that ancient that leaves pods after its death won't change anything. Ignis for the win.

Edited June 6, 2014 by CBAROG

[CBAROG]

They said they want the player to feel his power. To be powerful. So they still plan on adding even more cannon fodder. Tis sad indeed.

[locojuan]

ahhh, almost. atelast it made it to the stream. congrats notionphil! that was so close.

 DE is missing the hole point. if they want to avoid "unpleasent" experiences for new players, or keep the "god like feeling" they totally can. as i said before, theres dark sectors, voids, derelict, to put all this ideas without affecting new player experience. we dont even need to touch the solar chart for that matter.

 

Come on DE! i know what you are aiming for with the player experience, but you must also take into concideration all the ppl looking for tactic, skill and focus based gameplay, even if its only there at times.

[Phaenur]

Yeah, all of the fascinating new mechanics they showcased with those mockup Infested units are pretty much caught in the same trap as...everything else, really, exactly like the thread is saying.  The Pus (not "puss," although I'd be curious to see what a felinoid ancient would be like) Ancient is pretty much the only exception because killing it spawns new enemies.  To be fair, we don't know how fast any of these things will die - or kill us - or whether they'll have other mitigating factors like that MOA somersault (which is kind of what you're taking about here - doesn't save them from ults but makes them a much harder target) because they had clearly unfinished health, armor, and damage values.  Speaking of armor, the nanite swarms are another brilliant idea...that won't ever see fruition because we'll blow the Ruk out of anything that gets that close.

 

Like pretty much everyone's said at least once on this thread, we don't feel like warrior deities when absolutely everything crumbles without a challenge.  We don't need everything to be resistant, and we haven't asked for that.  We've just asked for enemies to randomly/gradually gain new tools to make us slow down and chew before swallowing.  Prosecutors are not even close to that, because it's entirely down to the RNG whether you'll have an effective ranged attack or even just a 'frame power that puts them in the ground.  In fact, the things they were describing about Prosecutors parrying bullets while charging...that sounds more like a legitimate challenge than the RNG auras.  I've just never noticed that, they just kind of keel over and die anyway.

 

I came away from the stream fairly disappointed, and I'm waiting to see if 'Phil or DiabolusUrsus have a magnum opus coming up in reply since my thoughts aren't coherent or constructive enough to really be worth sharing yet.  Frankly, I feel like Warframe power needs to be looked at more than anything else (meaning both us and our guns) in order to establish any other sort of balance, and the Balance 2.0 and Mod - Elephant in the Room threads are the best points I've seen in a while.  Unfortunately, DE seems to be wedded to their current systems, and I can't entirely blame them - it's not a very engaging model, but it's the one they've been working in for a year or more now.  I still want it to change, but I'm not all that surprised that the enemy design team isn't really thinking along the same lines as we are.  Not surprised, just...disappointed.

[notionphil]

Yeah, all of the fascinating new mechanics they showcased with those mockup Infested units are pretty much caught in the same trap as...everything else, really, exactly like the thread is saying.  The Pus (not "puss," although I'd be curious to see what a felinoid ancient would be like) Ancient is pretty much the only exception because killing it spawns new enemies.  To be fair, we don't know how fast any of these things will die - or kill us - or whether they'll have other mitigating factors like that MOA somersault (which is kind of what you're taking about here - doesn't save them from ults but makes them a much harder target) because they had clearly unfinished health, armor, and damage values.  Speaking of armor, the nanite swarms are another brilliant idea...that won't ever see fruition because we'll blow the Ruk out of anything that gets that close.

 

Like pretty much everyone's said at least once on this thread, we don't feel like warrior deities when absolutely everything crumbles without a challenge.  We don't need everything to be resistant, and we haven't asked for that.  We've just asked for enemies to randomly/gradually gain new tools to make us slow down and chew before swallowing.  Prosecutors are not even close to that, because it's entirely down to the RNG whether you'll have an effective ranged attack or even just a 'frame power that puts them in the ground.  In fact, the things they were describing about Prosecutors parrying bullets while charging...that sounds more like a legitimate challenge than the RNG auras.  I've just never noticed that, they just kind of keel over and die anyway.

 

I came away from the stream fairly disappointed, and I'm waiting to see if 'Phil or DiabolusUrsus have a magnum opus coming up in reply since my thoughts aren't coherent or constructive enough to really be worth sharing yet.  Frankly, I feel like Warframe power needs to be looked at more than anything else (meaning both us and our guns) in order to establish any other sort of balance, and the Balance 2.0 and Mod - Elephant in the Room threads are the best points I've seen in a while.  Unfortunately, DE seems to be wedded to their current systems, and I can't entirely blame them - it's not a very engaging model, but it's the one they've been working in for a year or more now.  I still want it to change, but I'm not all that surprised that the enemy design team isn't really thinking along the same lines as we are.  Not surprised, just...disappointed.

 

No magnum opus. Actually I'm just going to send Daniel B and Tom G long PMs with nothing other than quotes from players, starting with yours.

[dragonboss]

Riot MOA = awesome, at least he has a shield. Thank you!

 

Juggernaut (with frontal damage resist) = OK, we'll see, hopefully he telegraphs his shield bypassing rain.

 

every other enemy = one shot

 

all enemies = press 4, dead.

While I may have skimmed and reaction posted in the AM before....

 

Riot Moa better not have jackal one-shot rockets though.

Juggernaut seems like it might be interesting but it had better telegraph that direct health damage thing (I really hate it when games force you to take damage, it's artificial difficulty, at its worst).

Exactly, either one shot or 4.

 

Now to combat this one-shot/4 kills everything, how about the mobs actually surrounding you, with sheer numbers, supported by energy leech types/power null types and "Attack formation Bravo" could actually precede the manoeuvre.

 

Now, this won't work with the current enemy AI in place, but if there was a hive mentality, it could be very cool to see, especially for the infested on larger maps.

 

It could also be incorporated into the Grineer and Corpus corridor sets, if we had more frequent lockdowns, Grineer cameras(seriously they have spaceships and arctraps, which are silly btw,  but no cameras?) and turrets( supposedly inbound?).

 

So the lockdowns would be triggered in a set time after being spotted by a camera(their presence would have to be easily noticeable for non-rushers), or instantly after enemy hits the panic button. While the lockdown is being bypassed, enemies will spawn at every exit en masse, lying in wait, and depending on which exit to the tile you go to, other enemies will flank player position.

 

Ideally it would be very difficult to get past this ambush squad, so no random slide jump or invisibility bypasses.

 

I think going this route would increase difficulty a fair bit and force more co-operation AND hinder rushers, who will now have to have the skill/sheer damage(yes, sadly) to survive.

 

A lot of people at DE need to play Ninja Gaiden Black/ Ninja Gaiden 2, those guys have a handle on difficulty and boss fights. They can take some inspiration from there.

Edited June 6, 2014 by dragonboss

[Recel]

snip

 

You know, the problem with hive like AI in this game is really balance. I mean, if we can kill them so fast, they won't have a chance to rely on their numbers, as they lose them fast, but if they spawn enough fast and in numbers to surround us and trap us even with our ridiculous damage, than the balance is tipped in the mobs favor.

 

You must remember that different weapons kill in different speeds if you look at unit/sec instead of DPS. If our enemies relly on numbers than fast firing weapons that can mow down lots will be favored to cut down their numbers fast. If you balance the spawn/death to those weapons, to kep up enemy numbers, slower ones will just fail. And if you balance it to the slower ones, than fast killing ones will still null the impact of the hive AI.

[dragonboss]

You know, the problem with hive like AI in this game is really balance. I mean, if we can kill them so fast, they won't have a chance to rely on their numbers, as they lose them fast, but if they spawn enough fast and in numbers to surround us and trap us even with our ridiculous damage, than the balance is tipped in the mobs favor.

 

You must remember that different weapons kill in different speeds if you look at unit/sec instead of DPS. If our enemies relly on numbers than fast firing weapons that can mow down lots will be favored to cut down their numbers fast. If you balance the spawn/death to those weapons, to kep up enemy numbers, slower ones will just fail. And if you balance it to the slower ones, than fast killing ones will still null the impact of the hive AI.

In a perfect execution of what I'm imagining , the front of the group will have shield lancer/riot Moa in front in a line(think 300) with debuffers, enemy damage buffers and heavies behind them, all with shield eximus types helping as well, preventing you from killing them too fast.

 

The shield guys have to have a significantly high damage mitigation to prevent even the highest dps weapon from oneshotting them. So how it would go down in game is that provided you are flanked, and can survive the bullet hell you are now in, fire would have to be concentrated on the shield guy(who is no longer simply 100% impervious for a set time) to have the chance to kill the rest of them.

 

They should get in to this position very fast from cover bar simply teleporting or spawning already in formation, possibly even throw a flash bang/smoke grenade first.

 

The goal is to make teamwork more important and have the enemies lasting longer.

Edited June 6, 2014 by dragonboss

[Noabettiet]

Related to this:

"Corpus Elites could have fast regenerating shields making them nearly invincible, but shooting their helmet off could disable it."

 

It is best leave some enemies (at least the ones that come in great numbers) simple, as they are now.

Having too many different enemies with special atributes could make the game way too strategic and slow paced for us to actuality enjoy.

 

Other than that, i really agree with everything on this feedback topic.

Edited June 6, 2014 by akkerusia

[Davoodoo]

Riot MOA = awesome, at least he has a shield. Thank you!

 

Juggernaut (with frontal damage resist) = OK, we'll see, hopefully he telegraphs his shield bypassing rain.

 

every other enemy = one shot

 

all enemies = press 4, dead.

You forgot about punchthrough

 

all enemies = press 4 or hit once or twice. Dead

 

I hope they get it resolved somehow.

Edited June 6, 2014 by Davoodoo

[Viverim]

In a perfect execution of what I'm imagining , the front of the group will have shield lancer/riot Moa in front in a line(think 300) with debuffers, enemy damage buffers and heavies behind them, all with shield eximus types helping as well, preventing you from killing them too fast.

 

The shield guys have to have a significantly high damage mitigation to prevent even the highest dps weapon from oneshotting them. So how it would go down in game is that provided you are flanked, and can survive the bullet hell you are now in, fire would have to be concentrated on the shield guy(who is no longer simply 100% impervious for a set time) to have the chance to kill the rest of them.

 

They should get in to this position very fast from cover bar simply teleporting or spawning already in formation, possibly even throw a flash bang/smoke grenade first.

 

The goal is to make teamwork more important and have the enemies lasting longer.

Edited June 7, 2014 by Viverim

[Viverim]

And when they implement that, they can also get rid of the option to solo, as solo play will be completely dead and I will stop playing.

 

They don't need bigger Zerg swarms in this game.  They need to rely less on the "overwhelming numbers" and just make the enemies more diverse and interesting in smaller numbers, or have a limit to the numbers that they throw at you in a given time.  Smaller numbers for solo play, scaling upwards for 2, 3 or 4 man groups.

 

Edit for afterthought:

 

I find it sad that there is a total reliance in the game currently on two main features.  Run & Gun and Massive Magic.  Right now everything feels like the ONLY play option is to  Run & Gun at top speed and to spam your #4 power.  (I watched a dev stream gameplay video for the PS4 version of the game, and sorry to say, all Rebecca was doing was spamming Volt's #4 power.  Now it was a dev stream, but that is only reinforcing that this is the perferred, if not only, tactic for success).

 

There is little to no reward for taking your time, aiming your shots or even trying anything other than a few OP weapons in the game.  What's the point of my using a Grinlock to headshot enemies when you kill 34 enemies with carefull aim, but that one guy who hits the alarm summons a 20 enemy swarm that you just pull out your #4 or your Brakk and wade through anyway?  Oh, look!  It took me 20 minutes to kill the first 34, and the next 30 died in like, 5 seconds to my big magic and/or Penta.

 

I don't rely on my powers.  In fact, if I am using a power in most cases, it's becaue I am in trouble and need an escape button.  With that in mind, the only fram I felt I could use for Suspicious Shipments was Rhino, and I had to use the Penta/Angstrum combinatino to feel like I had any chance of finishing the mission.  Why?  Overwhelming Zerg swarms with over-the-top damage buffs.  Was this a challenge?  No, not really.  It was a stupid level game mechanic. 

 

Having hordes of enemies which wipe both my energy and my shields constantly isn't a "super fantastic" enemy option.  Having one out of every three enemies bypass my shields and do direct health damage isn't a "challenging mechanic".  It's a cheat.  If you have to resort to enemies who cheap-shot the tenno, then there is something very, very wrong.

 

My apologies for the rant.  I'm just feeling a lot of frustration lately.

Edited June 7, 2014 by Viverim

[gell]

I will still be able to kill everything with explosives (except arc traps OH GOD) <--- hey, they are annoying but sort of good designs since I have to change my approach to destroy an arc trap. They are bad because they are often hidden and sometimes I don't have the weapons to destroy them, partly my fault based on equips.

 

Yeah, it sucks they used prosecutors as an example because just as it sounded like the devs understood the problem, they said prosecutors are a good design that change up game play, and also said that hey, you can cover all the bases by carrying all elements, which means... we're back to square 1 of not having anything interesting if I've covered all the bases. Back to Shield Lancers as an example: Aside from all powerful explosive weapons that need a fix, I can't just cover all the bases and bypass the Shield Lancer's one unique attribute. I think piercing damage that went through shields was a glitch, but even if it wasn't, it's not on much stuff. I'd rather if explosives pushed the Shield Lancer back (if you have played Vindictus, you'll know what it looks like when Fiona is hit by a smash while blocking without heavy stander, and it looks really good).

 

So close. The little tiny chargers looked cool (as an enemy design concept), and the armor cloud thing is interesting. Those will hopefully serve to make enemies more fun to fight.

[DirkDeadeye]

Feedback like this, which at is essence would make this game..more of a GAME..being brushed off like that says I should find something else to do with my time.

 

Thanks for the memories DE.

 

Grinding your face into the wall for shiny items and events only goes so far. Eventually you have to make this game, a god damned game. And you've failed.

 

This is something that would step you in the right direction. And you essentially tell us..nah.

 

Well, here's my Nah.

 

Edited June 7, 2014 by DirkDeadeye

[notionphil]

Feedback like this, which at is essence would make this game..more of a GAME..being brushed off like that says I should find something else to do with my time.

 

Agreed, that was a pretty bad sign.

[Recel]

snip

 

 

 

Honestly, the idea of enemies forming up into a threat isn't a bad one, but them just apearing like that is.

We need units that can make the other enemies turn into a bigger threath, but only if said unit goes unnoticed or not dealt with. And also, it shouldn't happen in an instance, like with some damage buff aura or such. Those wouldn't end well.

 

The point is still the same. We need slightly stronger enemy types, that serve as support or cover or aeria denial, to help other cannonfodder mobs to actually do something.

We need fragile enemies wih shileds that you can't shoot through, like the shield lancer was before the new penetration mechanism. So other enemies can get behind him and use it as a cover.

We need enemies that can deny, or absorb or even redirect warframe powers to, again, help the trash mobs stay alive.

 

In short, we need priority targets that are not priority because of damage or health, but because they have tools and skills to make the other, usually half second heros, a chance to do some damage.

But we don't need zergs.

These units should be just as much of a "pain in the @$$" with smaller numbers (for solo) as with large numbers. Their skills should not relly on a large force. Rather they should make it possible for the enemie to reach that large force if they go on unattended.

 

Some ideas on mobs we already have:

 

Shiled Lancer is pretty obvious.

Mobs already use him as cover but he still needs small adjustments. For one, he shouldn't turn away his shield when he shoots in place, just maybe slide it a bit to the side. He should also have less of an urge to charge at you, and more of an urge to actually be a mobile cover.

 

Shield Osprey.

I think this little guy should either give a bigger boost to shield, or project a different type of shiled that can resist hits better. The point would be to still give the player the option to power through the shiled, but making it a bigger effort, to make the Osprey and actual asset to the enemies, keeping them alive longer, unles you take the Osprey out first.

 

Mine Osprey.

Currently, from all the units, this one is the most useless. His bombs only trigger if you clearly walk on them and they do very little damage. They are also easy to shoot because they go right to you.

So for one, make mines something you actually want to avoid. Uping the damage is the easy way, but I'm sure there are other things, such as status effects you could put on them to do this. Second, instead of closing in, the Mine Osprey should stay at a range and lay a line of mines. Give the mines just a bit bigger detection range to detonate, but not too much so you can jump over them.

 

Seeker.

Reduce the speed of the Latchers they deploy, but give them something else than just damage, because they are essentially mobile mines now. And mines currently are useless. Again, up the damage as an easy fix, or give it some unique behavior while on you. How about it reduces accuricy while on you? The more pile up, the worse it gets. It could share the new infested "latchers" resilience to die on a single roll.

 

Balista/Sniper crewman.

Please, please, make them able to actually hit the side of a barn from a meter finally. They shoot more inaccuretly than a machinegun.

 

Shockwave MOA.

Again small thing, but speed up the stomp on these guys, and give them a bit more health/protection overall, maybe a bit more speed too. They don't need to be bulletsponges, not even closely, but for a unit that comes close to preform a three second one leg stand before doing anything, they are the weakest of MOAs.

 

Commander.

First, change the switch teleport so it requires line of sight. Second, give it a "cast time" with a visual/sound on the target player to give him the chance to move out of sight to break the progress. Instead of a stun, give a short but "big" visual interference on the screene (kind of like Stalkers flicker), and I empaise on short.

 

For infested I... really don't know any fixes. They are all melee units, and curently melee units are at the bottom of the food chain, with no real reliable way to close gaps between them and the players.

Maybe a leap/jump or run/dash/sprint for melee units in general? Anything to actually close the gap, that isn't a no-sound teleport like the Power fists.

 

Other things that we would need, but are related to mobs.

 

Give us the ability to roll on the ground when we get knocked down, all four directions, with a quick get up at the end. It's not a big thing but would really help more than watching the screen untill your frame just lies there like his on a vacation. Also, since you roll you still can't shoot, and esentially it can be counted intothe duration of the stun, but still it gives control to the player. Something you should have never took away in the first place.

Change how status effects work, so they are less RNG and more about planing out. No more "procked blead on you five times in a row, lol u dieded" from enemies OR Teno. You could also give them to mobs as a way to give them more character if status would be a reliable thing.

 

 

There are other mobs and things that I know are still anoying or useless, but I have no real ideas for them now.

 

 

 

Agreed, that was a pretty bad sign.

 

I agree too, but I'm not willing to give up just yet. I still have some hope.

Edited June 7, 2014 by Recel

[PeripheralVisionary]

Shiled Lancer is pretty obvious.

Mobs already use him as cover but he still needs small adjustments. For one, he shouldn't turn away his shield when he shoots in place, just maybe slide it a bit to the side. He should also have less of an urge to charge at you, and more of an urge to actually be a mobile cover.

One of the reasons why he was threatening in early beta was that his charge knocked you down. 

[fatpig84]

While I may have skimmed and reaction posted in the AM before....

 

Riot Moa better not have jackal one-shot rockets though.

Juggernaut seems like it might be interesting but it had better telegraph that direct health damage thing (I really hate it when games force you to take damage, it's artificial difficulty, at its worst).

Exactly, either one shot or 4.

 

 

Wrong, they better have the ability to one shot us and prevent revives just like stalker.

Punishing players for every mistake is the key of the game.

 

If you are new to them, you better smash your head until you get smarter.

IE like dark souls.

 

And they should start appearing from Jupiter onwards.

Edited June 7, 2014 by fatpig84

[DirkDeadeye]

I agree too, but I'm not willing to give up just yet. I still have some hope.

 

I wish I had some left. I feel like i'm in a relationship with a gold digging @#&amp;*(. And I just now realized it.