Forget Better Ai - We Need Better Dumb Enemies

[notionphil]

I can include the same name, but as a same old reskin of a run-of-the-mill troops, they and their powers are nothing quite special. It just makes it and annoyance, more than a threat. Basically, -insert Eximus name- variant of a Craton Suit. 

 

I designed mine to have a sophisticated AI, one part i'm stuck on atm is balancing of their hp/shields. However the Craton Suits are of Corpus origin due to me designing them lore wise as a reverse-engineer of Warframes, with some data salvaged off Alad V's lab and the Zenuka Project, in which i will create unique abilities/attacks for them (current placeholder is 2 specials).

 

EDIT-forgot to elaborate that these suits, as well you see in the name, Exo-power armors, designed to push the operator to physical limits with unique abilities to that suit, different from Warframes structural/manufacturing-wise being mechanical-based than semi-organic of our Warframe exo-armors.

 

EDIT of EDIT(lol)- Basically im trying to turn them into more of a 'Mini-boss' style enemy, than the simple cannon fodder we have and provides a challenge, similarly to how the Manic Grineer, Juggernaut and Riot MOA will be implemented.

 

I wouldn't get too excited about the Manic and Juggernaut being minibosses until we see them in game. Remember, anything that doesn't have power resistance is dead the second you press 3 or 4.

 

Also, what is this "sophisticated AI" you're talking about? Again, unless it includes being resistant to boltor prime (aka a bullet sponge) and Ults, it won't have a chance to appear in game. It will be dead before you see its "intelligent" behavior.

 

I do think Eximus units need to be more engaging, but...surprise....I think it needs to be via better "dumb" mechanics not "sophisticated AI".

 

EX:

 

snowglobe should be many times stronger, but have certain sections missing that you can shoot through as it rotates.

 

fire Ex should have embers overheat on entire body except head...and instead of absurd 100M aoe...use Vor's telegraphed "world on fire" marks appear under your feet before flame jets shoot out

 

shock should set up Volt style shields, and have high speed, dashing away when you get too close.

[notionphil]

How does Shield Lancer create new options? "You can't shoot through my shield" and "you don't have energy" neither give you more options.

 

Both situations however have plenty of options left to deal with the situation though.

 

We have plenty of ways to regain our energy after dealing with the Eximus.

 

Shock Eximus aren't perfect but that mechanic is a step into right direction.

 

The Shield Lancer creates a new 'situation' by making some of your usual solutions into bad choices. The most common way to deal with enemies is to shoot in their general direction, which isn't a very effective way to deal with the shield lancer. It may still work, its just not the best way.

 

However, the Shock eximus REMOVES your choices, and whats worse, he removes them not just for engaging him, not just during the fight, but for approaching all enemies even after he is dead. Until probably the next 15 seconds or so.

 

A better "situation" with choices would be the shock eximus sending off a big shower of energy draining sparks when hit by an AoE power. Yes, you could still use AoE's they would just be a bad choice in that situation.

 

Thus - I wholeheartedly disagree that the Shock Eximus is a step in the right direction. Enemies shouldn't remove your choices in general, especially in sometimes unavoidable ways.

 

If the shock Eximus were to have a visible aura, so you'd know where to run, in the common case that he's obscured by objects/enemies, that would be better. Or if he disrupted your power use while in his radius, that would also be better. But no, the current implementation is not an engaging mechanic, it's an unfair one.

 

This isn't a "lets see how hard we can make the game" thread. It's a "lets see how ENGAGING" we can make the game thread.

Edited June 18, 2014 by notionphil

[Renegade343]

I wouldn't get too excited about the Manic and Juggernaut being minibosses until we see them in game. Remember, anything that doesn't have power resistance is dead the second you press 3 or 4.

 

Also, what is this "sophisticated AI" you're talking about? Again, unless it includes being resistant to boltor prime (aka a bullet sponge) and Ults, it won't have a chance to appear in game. It will be dead before you see its "intelligent" behavior.

 

I do think Eximus units need to be more engaging, but...surprise....I think it needs to be via better "dumb" mechanics not "sophisticated AI".

 

EX:

 

snowglobe should be many times stronger, but have certain sections missing that you can shoot through as it rotates.

 

fire Ex should have embers overheat on entire body except head...and instead of absurd 100M aoe...use Vor's telegraphed "world on fire" marks appear under your feet before flame jets shoot out

 

shock should set up Volt style shields, and have high speed, dashing away when you get too close.

Sometimes, too much 'dumb' mechanics tend to become a bit bland. I would prefer to have a mix of 90% dumb mechanics and 10% sophisticated AI to make enemies feel fresh every time a player fights them. 

 

And speaking of Boltor Prime damage... my own rework of Primes coming at 2014-07-04!

[Naftal]

The Shield Lancer creates a new 'situation' by making some of your usual solutions into bad choices. The most common way to deal with enemies is to shoot in their general direction, which isn't a very effective way to deal with the shield lancer. It may still work, its just not the best way.

 

However, the Shock eximus REMOVES your choices, and whats worse, he removes them not just for engaging him, not just during the fight, but for approaching all enemies even after he is dead. Until probably the next 15 seconds or so.

 

A better "situation" with choices would be the shock eximus sending off a big shower of energy draining sparks when hit by an AoE power. Yes, you could still use AoE's they would just be a bad choice in that situation.

 

Thus - I wholeheartedly disagree that the Shock Eximus is a step in the right direction. Enemies shouldn't remove your choices in general, especially in sometimes unavoidable ways.

 

If the shock Eximus were to have a visible aura, so you'd know where to run, in the common case that he's obscured by objects/enemies, that would be better. Or if he disrupted your power use while in his radius, that would also be better. But no, the current implementation is not an engaging mechanic, it's an unfair one.

 

This isn't a "lets see how hard we can make the game" thread. It's a "lets see how ENGAGING" we can make the game thread.

I could say the same for Shock Eximus. It creates a new situation by not allowing to use your usual solutions.

[notionphil]

Sometimes, too much 'dumb' mechanics tend to become a bit bland. I would prefer to have a mix of 90% dumb mechanics and 10% sophisticated AI to make enemies feel fresh every time a player fights them. 

 

And speaking of Boltor Prime damage... my own rework of Primes coming at 2014-07-04!

 

Once the "dumb mechanics" are in place, you can start getting more complex with AI.

 

However, without the "dumb mechanics" to keep mobs alive, they'll be dead far before they can execute their clever master plan.

[notionphil]

I could say the same for Shock Eximus. It creates a new situation by not allowing to use your usual solutions.

 

If you think:

 

1) blocking poorly aimed bullets aimed at a single mob

 

and

 

2) removing all of your power usage, and preventing you from using both offensive and defensive powers even after the engagement is over

 

are the same, I suggest you think about it more.

[Renegade343]

Once the "dumb mechanics" are in place, you can start getting more complex with AI.

 

However, without the "dumb mechanics" to keep mobs alive, they'll be dead far before they can execute their clever master plan.

No, I agree on making the addition of "dumb mechanics" as a priority, but my way of executing this would be to introduce enemies with "dumb mechanics" using a mixture of 90% "dumb mechanics" and 10% "sophisticated AI" (on the same enemy), which would allow a solid and somewhat diverse base to build upon, while allowing enemies to survive long enough with "dumb mechanics" to start using one or two "sophisticated AI", just to make gameplay fresh from the current one. 

Edited June 18, 2014 by Renegade343

[Naftal]

If you think:

 

1) blocking poorly aimed bullets aimed at a single mob

 

and

 

2) removing all of your power usage, and preventing you from using both offensive and defensive powers even after the engagement is over

 

are the same, I suggest you think about it more.

No I don't think they are the same. Removing your energy is a bigger nuisance obviously.

 

I'm just arguing that a) messing with players' energy like that is a step into right direction, not the correct final solution but a step towards it and b) neither shield lancer or shock eximus give you new options but only restrict you.

[notlamprey]

Sometimes, too much 'dumb' mechanics tend to become a bit bland. I would prefer to have a mix of 90% dumb mechanics and 10% sophisticated AI to make enemies feel fresh every time a player fights them. 

 

And speaking of Boltor Prime damage... my own rework of Primes coming at 2014-07-04!

 

It probably wouldn't be worthwhile to add any kind of "smart" behavior to more than one enemy on the map at any given time. Even then, this type of enemy would have to bring something new to the table after the vaunted Eximus has realized its potential. That's a big ask, but not impossible.

 

As a rough idea, how about an Operator enemy that actively attempts to engage lockdowns and activate turrets while avoiding direct combat? Let's assume this little bugger only spawns a maximum of once in a given mission. If he detects the player, he first tries to open up some distance for safety, and then begins generating little hazards by locking doors, depressurizing rooms, activating turrets, or some other environmental condition that is appropriate for the tileset. At Ceres, he might try turning the shipyard lasers on you.

 

Instead of just forcing the player to "eat" this extra obstacle, what if the Operator's activities opened the same options for the player? Let's say he doesn't have time to encrypt his input, and the Tenno can now get into these systems to make the enemy feel the burn. Maybe we let the player choose: hacking to deactivate the Operator's "traps," taking the offensive and using these systems against the enemy, or choosing to temporarily lock him out for a short duration?

 

It's rough, but maybe there's some fun in there that's worth hammering out.

[Renegade343]

It probably wouldn't be worthwhile to add any kind of "smart" behavior to more than one enemy on the map at any given time. Even then, this type of enemy would have to bring something new to the table after the vaunted Eximus has realized its potential. That's a big ask, but not impossible.

I forgot to add the parenthesis after 90%-10% statement, which should be: (on the same enemy). 

 

That will mean that the enemy will still mainly operate on "dumb mechanics", but will play something "smart" if certain conditions are met. Once that is done, revert to "dumb mechanics". 

[notionphil]

No I don't think they are the same. Removing your energy is a bigger nuisance obviously.

 

I'm just arguing that a) messing with players' energy like that is a step into right direction, not the correct final solution but a step towards it and b) neither shield lancer or shock eximus give you new options but only restrict you.

 

I agree, neither give new options. But they aren't just two different shades of a gradient - they are two entirely different things. I know this sounds nitpicky, but i strongly believe this.

 

Removing player options is different than making those options bad choices. They are two different things, in two different categories. EX: I would never suggest making a 100% gunfire resistant enemy. 90%? sure. Gunfire may be a bad choice. But you can still do it.

 

This is compounded when player options are removed via "cheap" mechanics, instead of ones they have ample warning to apply their "skill" to avoid. Those two factors interact to make the Shock Eximus horrible instead of awesome. It's a small difference, but its a critical one.

 

Removing player options leads to less player agency. Less feeling of skill and control. Less feeling like an uber space ninja badass. "I had to use guns bc they were the only option." Well did you make a choice? No. The game chose for you.

 

However, making some options good and others bad does the opposite. It makes us feel like we just solved a puzzle by killing that enemy in a skillful or creative way. Bc we chose, instead of the game choosing. "Well, i decided to jump kick him down bc he was blocking many of my bullets. It was more efficient that way. *yeah, I rock*"

 

Little difference, big impact.

Edited June 18, 2014 by notionphil

[Steelfeathers]

Just reading through OP's post kind of reminded me of Payday 2. Why? Cause of the some-what different enemy variations.

 

If you have played the game long enough, you'll start to notice that not all the enemies are the same. Sure you get the backbone of DC's finest, the basic green-wearing non-bulletproof cannon fodder. But then playing through the game again, you'll notice you start to get frustrated because you think the game is bugged when you see the body of a TAN officer. This enemy that wears tan colored armor with the acronym "FBI" printed on his back seemed to be more buggy than the rest of the law enforcement jack-offs that you have fought, why? Because he was wearing actual bulletproof armor and the only way you could have beaten him was to actually aim for the head. The worse part of these guys is that when it rains, it pours! Masses of bulletproof bodies surround you and you have to make a retreat or at least change up your strategy. These guys helped me realize that maybe I shouldn't just be playing a point and click adventure, maybe I should actually take into account of the situation that I am currently facing.

 

And after a while of assessing the situation and establishing a basic foothold of your ground, the game throws at you a special enemy. One of five unique enemies that can drastically change the flow of the game. Who are these guys? Well, the worst that is yet to come.

 

SHIELDS: These guys, they can change the game, they can ruin everything if you don't get rid of them as soon as you get an opportunity. How? They're moving cover, they actually protect the other enforcers.

The Grineer shield lancers? They don't do any of that. They don't change the game, they shouldn't, but what bothers me is that they use that shield like it was their own. That shield is for them, for when THEY need it, not for when their fellow Grineer need it. One way I can probably foresee is to throw in a Grineer that may have a stronger shield or something, maybe something that could actually defend against the Tenno. Bigger health? A damage reduction aura for him and his pals perhaps?

 

BULLDOZERS: These guys were powerhouses, they were the grim reaper of law enforcement, he made you sjit your pants if you didn't coordinate your efforts. Until PD2 that is, when they drastically dumbed him down by half of his original glory. In PD2 they were too timid, too passive, until they saw their moment to shine they didn't act. In the first Payday, as soon as you saw him you knew you were in big trouble. When you first saw him, your mind easily concluded, "This guy is a human tank! He can't even see his own feet because of how much armor he's wearing, ow damn! He just shot me and it nearly killed me who is this guy!?" He was the guy who's phasers were not set to 'stun,' but to 'ruin-your-day.' Enforcers looked up to him and they all aspired to be like Bulldozer-senpai. When the police were too afraid to even enter a hallway for fear they could be killed, they saw the Bulldozer carelessly walk into that hallway. They saw the criminals immediately retreat to a safer place just by seeing him. To them, he was a light shining in the darkness, a god of war that inspired these hapless slaves to rally behind him to take down their masked oppressors. And when down to fighting him face-to-face, it was a challenge. When he looked at you, he challenged you to him. If you turn tail and ran, you died. If you were behind him, you couldn't even hoped to take him down. Due to body armor of course.

Does this sound vaguely familiar to you? To a certain Grineer or a certain Corpus? It should, because it should remind you of a Heavy Gunner and a Tech. Well, mostly the Heavy Gunner. She had the right idea, walked towards you and gunned you down in the middle of you fcuking beauty pageant, Barbara! I mean the opposite, where YOU gunned her down to a red mist just because she slightly inconvenienced you... in the middle of her pyucking beauty pageant, Barbara. To remedy this I suggest a special heavy gunner with ARMOR. Lots of armor! So much armor is makes noodle frames like Nyx awestruck, Rhino jealous, and Valkyr envious of how much armor she has. Durable armor that either ignores or takes damage based on a certain damage threshold until it breaks off due to some crackerjack, below-par, rooty-tooty-and-point-and-shooty Soma hero that shows up and mows down most of her armor exposing her with nothing more that her standard Heavy Gunner squishy self as she cries out "Kyaaaa~! Hentaiii! Pervert! Baka, baka!" Leading her to double up her efforts with big health and bigger firepower. Basically an armor plating that you can only break to expose pieces of her plush and soft self which would lead to her getting a damage buff depending on how much armor you've stripped from her. Also some blast resistance to stop those pesky Penta-flys.

 

And seriously guys? Whats with the ballistas? I hardly ever see them and they seem limp like wet noodle. Are they suppose to be marksman? A threat? The snipers in PD: The Heist were a bigger pain in the @$$ and they died just by you simply looking at them. I propose a special elite Ballista that spawns with a small cadre of a more improved class of ballistae. She could be sporting some fancy hurty Vulkar that doesn't shoot as often, but will still catch the attention of unwary, carefree Tenno.

 

Also I wonder why we have the Jat Kittag, if not a single Grineer sports it? Maybe they'll add in that will, but for now I would like to suggest these mean brutish armored Grineer that will utilize a jet-powered hammer religiously.

He would look like this sexy badass

Edited June 18, 2014 by Steelfeathers

[CBAROG]

 Heavy Gunner squishy self as she cries out "Kyaaaa~! Hentaiii! Pervert! Baka, baka!"

I died of laughter at this point. +1

[ThePresident777]

I like T4.  It's glass cannon vs glass cannon.  And it is godlike when you consider it's 4 Tenno with nukes and revives vs. a fast respawning massive horde.

 

And, it's funny to hear people advocating for nerfing Warframe into Dark Souls, telling developers to rip off another game, hilarious.  I'm imagining DE has more self respect and respect for players than to do that.

Edited June 18, 2014 by ThePresident777

[Nagisawa]

I hate that, that's why I suggested the Active Recovery System. Handspring should be there by default since that's an innate skill of the operator and not the suit, and as you advance, with the recovery mod, the suit will help you recover quicker and more powerfully as you upgrade it.

What if...  And this would require new animations, but whenever you get 'knocked down' instead you do the anime roll/flip to your feet as a knock back effect?  But allowing you to fire a weapon as you do so?

[Nagisawa]

 

Also I wonder why we have the Jat Kittag, if not a single Grineer sports it? Maybe they'll add in that will, but for now I would like to suggest these mean brutish armored Grineer that will utilize a jet-powered hammer religiously.

He would look like this sexy badass

SOLD!  Put him as a Boss somewhere!  Earth maybe?

[-SLX-J3tAc3]

That's exactly what I said in an email to The Beautiful One (I'm not naming names ^^) - well, that was one of my suggestions. In the email, I suggested Handspring have that mechanic at rank 4, and at rank 5, you won't even hit your back, but you will fly back in a ball position, then, while airborne, you unleash an arc of energy stars towards the one who tried to knock you down so they'll get hit along with any nearby buddies.

[Demons3ye]

That way to play would be awesome. Real challenges. Makes me think about Borderlands 2, where badass enemies were REALLY tough to get, even when playing with some of the best gear available!

[-skimmer-]

Yes, this thread 100%.  I kinda hate how I can just effortlessly one shot entire groups of enemies by shooting in their general direction and keep doing it, unless Im doing an endless mission where they can wait 50 minutes and maybe one shot me back with a stray bullet simply because they have no better response me. I dont have to worry about what Im shooting at, I dont know when was I last concerned about dying or failing a mission and all that indeed makes the game kinda monotonous.

[YashiroSora]

I wouldn't get too excited about the Manic and Juggernaut being minibosses until we see them in game. Remember, anything that doesn't have power resistance is dead the second you press 3 or 4.

 

Also, what is this "sophisticated AI" you're talking about? Again, unless it includes being resistant to boltor prime (aka a bullet sponge) and Ults, it won't have a chance to appear in game. It will be dead before you see its "intelligent" behavior.

 

I do think Eximus units need to be more engaging, but...surprise....I think it needs to be via better "dumb" mechanics not "sophisticated AI".

 

-snip-

By my module AI as in, reflexively parry your bullets and/or (also applies if your shots are travel-time), they can detect and dodge it. I am balancing how it takes damage atm, where possibly may have its armor have a damage cap, i.e. only takes 500 damage maximum per shot. Or where some parts don't take damage at all, requiring some aim. It would be done faster if i have some help, so i say we can discuss it and we'll flesh out how to make it totally badass.

 

On that note, whatever you mentioned of 'But just press 4' or '-Insert High DPS gun- will wreck it', i have already thought it through(or look for some ways to go around it for parts i haven't done). I mentioned it somewhere before that, "If we are this powerful, then just think 'what can i do to defeat myself?' ". I am running on this mindset, and finding where defeat can be a possibility for us. 

 

EDIT-In terms of behaviour to Abilities, i plan them to react the same way it affects us in dueling and conclave. E.g. Rhino Stomp does not throw them into stasis. Since i noticed this does, in a way, effectively counter our abilities, while not just straight flush-out.

 

EDIT of EDIT-Things i am including here is only part of the whole thing as it is still a 'Work in Project', and not completed. The designing of it is pretty deep. On the note of working above, does anyone wish for me to make it a Thread and we can work on it collaboratively?

 

ADD-ON EDIT-

 

-snip-

"To remedy this I suggest a special heavy gunner with ARMOR. Lots of armor! So much armor is makes noodle frames like Nyx awestruck, Rhino jealous, and Valkyr envious of how much armor she has. Durable armor that either ignores or takes damage based on a certain damage threshold until it breaks off due to some crackerjack, below-par, rooty-tooty-and-point-and-shooty Soma hero that shows up and mows down most of her armor exposing her with nothing more that her standard Heavy Gunner squishy self as she cries out "Kyaaaa~! Hentaiii! Pervert! Baka, baka!" Leading her to double up her efforts with big health and bigger firepower. Basically an armor plating that you can only break to expose pieces of her plush and soft self which would lead to her getting a damage buff depending on how much armor you've stripped from her. Also some blast resistance to stop those pesky Penta-flys."

 

-snip-

 

This 'reactive armor' seems a pretty good idea. :O .Well with permission of your idea of course.

Edited June 19, 2014 by YashiroSora

[(PSN)Jr_Bello]

Awesome, i absolutely agree with notionphil,

we definitely need a better game-play feel in this game, 

i've been playing for only a month now and i am already starting to get bored.

i can already handle level 40 waves in Tower 3 defense and high level dark sectors without breaking too much of a sweat (that being said only when my team isn't all that bad either), this shouldn't be so, when level 30 hits, my co-op team should be like "holy ****, [insert troop name] are going to start popping up, we should start planning how to take them on" 

 

i hope devs read this thread

[YashiroSora]

Awesome, i absolutely agree with notionphil,

we definitely need a better game-play feel in this game, 

i've been playing for only a month now and i am already starting to get bored.

i can already handle level 40 waves in Tower 3 defense and high level dark sectors without breaking too much of a sweat (that being said only when my team isn't all that bad either), this shouldn't be so, when level 30 hits, my co-op team should be like "holy ****, [insert troop name] are going to start popping up, we should start planning how to take them on" 

 

i hope devs read this thread

Yes we need a real 'Threat' and 'Dangerous Unit', not steam-roll about anything that proves a mere annoyance. Yes, we should drop a lot of enemies, but, it shouldn't be 'too easy'. Like in Lost Planet 2, there were to usual rank and file of troops, gun them down pretty fast, but when you meet the tanky, and slightly more agile VS's (Vital Suits, or more simply, robots/mechs). When I see an enemy use one, im like 'Oh Sh-$%' and find cover. Point is there's no immediate threat, and the new Eximus that i mentioned above, is me trying to create an enemy that is a 'Threat'. (Hek even bosses aren't really a threat, just another cannon fodder with flashy abilities.).

 

On that note, the Devs have read this thread, but it was to a degree disregarded with one of them saying on LiveStream 30 that 'The Tenno are suppose to be powerful, they should be able to kill hoardes of these guys'. Well Devs, to put it bluntly, we are bored of the 'hoardes of Rank and File now'. We want a real threat. 

Edited June 19, 2014 by YashiroSora

[angrykenji]

DE PLS

[DSpite]

Either you misunderstood my post or it was unclear. That's my exact point. All we have time to do is 'twitch' - dodge or shoot in a direction, hopefully with a tiny amnt of aiming.

Thus adding layer upon layer of AoE slows stuns etc on top of that twitching is likely to result in very unhappy Tenno.

 

I don't think I misunderstood. I'll try again.

 

I am in agreement that enemies should have more varied things they do, and be more dangerous, as long as can work smarter to counter. I was trying to point out that, at least for me, It's very hard to see anything in this game, so even if mobs were to "telegraph" what they were about to do, it would be lost in a sea of color.

 

In Guild Wars I used to play a CC Ranger, It was my job to interrupt some of the more annoying stuff like Scorpion interrupts from their tails, the Mammoth stomps, and mages casting spells. All those mobs did very clear telegraphing, and I had to time it to make it work, so I understand those concepts. However, in Guild Wars, when mobs telegraphed, it was a very damn obvious to spot thing like a whole custom animation, or a bright aura above their heads, or the whole mob glowing, etc etc, so a similar thing would have to be done here.

[notionphil]

I don't think I misunderstood. I'll try again.

 

I am in agreement that enemies should have more varied things they do, and be more dangerous, as long as can work smarter to counter. I was trying to point out that, at least for me, It's very hard to see anything in this game, so even if mobs were to "telegraph" what they were about to do, it would be lost in a sea of color.

 

In Guild Wars I used to play a CC Ranger, It was my job to interrupt some of the more annoying stuff like Scorpion interrupts from their tails, the Mammoth stomps, and mages casting spells. All those mobs did very clear telegraphing, and I had to time it to make it work, so I understand those concepts. However, in Guild Wars, when mobs telegraphed, it was a very damn obvious to spot thing like a whole custom animation, or a bright aura above their heads, or the whole mob glowing, etc etc, so a similar thing would have to be done here.

So then we agree that the new mobs will be a player frustration unless something fundamental changes about telegraphing.