I Would Like To Thank Steve For Throwing Down The Mic On The Mods And Joining The Scott Side Of The Void.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Can you elaborate on what skill means to you for the folks that dont play those video games?

Because it seems like this idea of no skill is picturing some scenario where you put on a mod and simply walk forward shooting without worrying about anything that is going on. And, yes, this can be achieved if you forma to hell and walk through Venus but at that point your challenge is not Venus, is it?

Skill: Something that requires more than the point and click that is WF. a decent example of skill (again) is defeating a dark souls boss without taking damage, or clearing the game with 0 (extra, I think there are a few where you need to die IIRC) deaths. Skill is (i.e., no flames about the game please) the ability to juggle Draven's axes without dropping one, or the ability to land a skillshot again and again without fail.

 

Skill is not WF. WF is pretty much a point and click adventure without formaing things to hell and back. Any explosive weapon, boltor prime, or decently modded weapon (for damage) is enough to clear any planet, solo, minus a few (i.e. mk1 braton)

 

and:

 

Watch it, it explains what the illusion of choice is.

Edited July 4, 2014 by KvotheTheArcane1

[Momoynator]

Hm. Have to see this now, but I find the most amusing answer so far:

 

"HE DID IT WRONG! HE SHOULD COME TO THE FORUMS SO WE CAN NIT-PICK HIS REASONING UNTIL HE FINALLY AGREES WITH US!"

 

Gee, I wonder why he doesn't want to do that.

 

Like I said. People can have their opinion but we (or DE in this case) don't have to agree with them. It's just like that saying "I'd agree with you, but then we'd both be wrong."

 

I'll give the nay sayers credit for thinking it through and coming up with possible, but not necessarily better solutions, but if you work on something enough, it could be better than you'd originally think.

[grillv20]

@ OP

 

When there is an overwhelming number of people agreeing with a message somebody is saying and a developer decides to throw a temper tantrum in front of thousands and thousands of customers because he pointed out flaws in their system does not make them "the man" it makes him look stupid. Rather than blowing up he should have at least took the time to read the rest of what he was saying instead of the first part that offended him. When he did this he missed the point that Rebecca probably would have been able to get across if she had the chance to before Steve went and blew up on Zamboni. If he had actually took the time to read the thread(which I'm pretty sure he didn't) he would have known what the point was. 

 

This whole thing would have been a great thing to actually talk about. This was what a lot of us were waiting to be talked about on stream for once.

Edited July 4, 2014 by grillv20

[Momoynator]

Skill: Something that requires more than the point and click that is WF. a decent example of skill (again) is defeating a dark souls boss without taking damage, or clearing the game with 0 (extra, I think there are a few where you need to die IIRC) deaths. Skill is (i.e., no flames about the game please) the ability to juggle Draven's axes without dropping one, or the ability to land a skillshot again and again without fail.

 

Skill is not WF. WF is pretty much a point and click adventure without formaing things to hell and back. Any explosive weapon, boltor prime, or decently modded weapon (for damage) is enough to clear any planet, solo, minus a few (i.e. mk1 braton)

 

and:

 

Watch it, it explains what the illusion of choice is.

 

I can't help myself but point out that those can all be boiled down to a personal goal. You can land a skill shot every time if you wanted to in WF (Banshee's Sonar). You can play and not get shot at ('stealth' run) in WF, you can clear the game without any extra revives in WF as well.

 

Having never played dark souls I wouldn't know for sure, but for one, that is a single player game, hardly fair to ask of the same of a multiplayer co-op/pvp (kinda) game. And secondly, those are all (or seem to be) goals you can set for yourself, regardless of the game. Hardly a measure of skill.

 

Okay, I swear I'm done with this now lol. I'm just extremely bored at work :3

[KvotheTheArcane1]

I can't help myself but point out that those can all be boiled down to a personal goal. You can land a skill shot every time if you wanted to in WF (Banshee's Sonar). You can play and not get shot at ('stealth' run) in WF, you can clear the game without any extra revives in WF as well.

 

Having never played dark souls I wouldn't know for sure, but for one, that is a single player game, hardly fair to ask of the same of a multiplayer co-op/pvp (kinda) game. And secondly, those are all (or seem to be) goals you can set for yourself, regardless of the game. Hardly a measure of skill.

 

Okay, I swear I'm done with this now lol. I'm just extremely bored at work :3

I disagree, I believe those are all indicators of some skill. Skillshots have the name for a reason, they can be dodged, and some of them are difficult to land. If you haven't played dark souls, I'd suggest doing so before claiming it's "just a personal goal." Dark souls is widely lauded as an immensely tough game, but fairly tough (as in, not many cheap shots).

[BETAOPTICS]

 

How about a conclave rating for missions?

Each planet has a rating for the max rank allowed for mods so if you have max everything but pop into Venus your mods get de-rank for a level allowed in Venus? So that means that everyone is essentially at the same level. And after you reach 30 then there is no limit to mods. It's like that system Steve showed for the new Conflict missions for the Dark Sectors.

Maybe it would be a solution. However I personally would prefer exploring the mission difficulty option. While both have problems of their own, the flexibility of mission difficulty route is more apealing, at least on the paper. Though I can not shake the feeling that what would happen to players ang matches found, since we would all be divided now.

[CapedBaldy]

The current mod system is actually not a mess like most people are inclined to think it is. Many people use the 'cookie-cutter' set-up because they're great and viable in most circumstances. In a system like this, there are bound to be set-ups that are better than other set-ups, not all combinations are meant to be great after all. If you go into a Grineer survival mission or defence mission with a hacking specialist set-up and anti-Corpus weaponry you should expect to get wrecked, but I've seen many other players use odd mod combos to great effect, notable ones being Overextended and Stretch Ash with Eagle Eye on Vectis to take down many foes from a vantage point in a large interception map and supporting the whole team, or a knockdown resilient Oberon that can safely melee fight even ancients slapping him every other second.

 

Now, I think that the lack of serious competition and mechanics from other mods causes people to mostly go back to those few 'mandatory' mods. Rage, Life Strike and Quick Thinking are examples of mods having great and obvious mechanics to work around and these mesh into a great combo. Power modifiers are also apparent through usage of Warframe abilities. If the other mods became serious contenders with interesting mechanics, we'd see a lot of mod diversity and interesting builds, say perhaps a Fast Deflection that in addition to increasing shield recharge rate, also reduced shield recharge delay to almost instantaneous, now that would be an interesting choice on many high shield Warframes, especially for those who dodge well. Maybe even an Undying Will that actually let you walked around during bleed out to find a team mate to help you out!

[Momoynator]

I disagree, I believe those are all indicators of some skill. Skillshots have the name for a reason, they can be dodged, and some of them are difficult to land. If you haven't played dark souls, I'd suggest doing so before claiming it's "just a personal goal." Dark souls is widely lauded as an immensely tough game, but fairly tough (as in, not many cheap shots).

 

That's why I was tentative in my wording as I am no expert, but my point about single player vs co-op multiplayer still stands. How do you scale difficulty for one to four people with different load outs (even assuming the mod system was replaced with, say, a generic skill tree). Also, indicators of skill, yes, but landing the shot is the true test and proof of skill. How you do it is up to the player, whether it be with the explosive penta, the hit scan soma or the non-hit scan paris prime is still up to them. Some are easier tests of skill than others.

[LukeAura]

I can't help myself but point out that those can all be boiled down to a personal goal. You can land a skill shot every time if you wanted to in WF (Banshee's Sonar). You can play and not get shot at ('stealth' run) in WF, you can clear the game without any extra revives in WF as well.

 

Having never played dark souls I wouldn't know for sure, but for one, that is a single player game, hardly fair to ask of the same of a multiplayer co-op/pvp (kinda) game. And secondly, those are all (or seem to be) goals you can set for yourself, regardless of the game. Hardly a measure of skill.

Dark Souls does have a large PvP/Co-op component to it. And the games pacing allows for all those choices to be encouraged or rewarded in some way. But each possible method of playing through the game ends up with roughly the same rewards, the loot you find, and the satisfaction of victory you earn. Nor does the game particularly encourage beating it at any set pace, because it's natural pacing is actually fairly slow. Going any slower, isn't really an issue.  

in Warframe, there is very little satisfaction in victory, so when you intentionally limit yourself it feels more like punishment than a self imposed challenge to overcome. And the loot you receive is entirely dictated by the frequency at which you kill things. Any self imposed challenge in Warframe denies both aspects of what makes a unique playthrough of Dark Souls so rewarding, and actually makes the rewards you do receive worse. And because Warframe's gameplay is very fast, there is a long way to fall and a lot you lose if you go slow. 

 

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Also, indicators of skill, yes, but landing the shot is the true test and proof of skill. How you do it is up to the player, whether it be with the explosive penta, the hit scan soma or the non-hit scan paris prime is still up to them. Some are easier tests of skill than others.

I disagree with the last part of your post (only part I left there, don't feel like getting into the first part, it's a whoooole 'nother huge topic). Getting hits with the soma is not skill, it's a machine gun. The penta requires no skill, you can drop the 'nade, and then back off, and it has an AoE, so, you know, it hits enemies pretty well.

 

Paris requires a bit of skill, I'll admit, the travel time makes it a bit awkward to use, but really, it's fast enough to still be used as a mid range weapon (as bows are supposed to be)

[Mak_Gohae]

Skill: Something that requires more than the point and click that is WF. a decent example of skill (again) is defeating a dark souls boss without taking damage, or clearing the game with 0 (extra, I think there are a few where you need to die IIRC) deaths. Skill is (i.e., no flames about the game please) the ability to juggle Draven's axes without dropping one, or the ability to land a skillshot again and again without fail.

 

Skill is not WF. WF is pretty much a point and click adventure without formaing things to hell and back. Any explosive weapon, boltor prime, or decently modded weapon (for damage) is enough to clear any planet, solo, minus a few (i.e. mk1 braton)

 

I dont play DS so i dont understand what you are trying to convey here... are these challenges? Is this what you are asking for? Because you can try all this stuff in Warframe. I actually put on the Hawk/Eagle mods so i can have a better time at going for weakspots since they have multipliers to dmg. Do you want some skill challenges included in the game?

 

 

and:

 

Watch it, it explains what the illusion of choice is.

 

This video uses story and stage construction as examples which had nothing to do with equipment.

And, like i said above, i run Rejuv and Vitality only most of the time.... is that not a choice?

Or using the video.... are you saying that putting on mods means we dont have a choice? Cause.... it's equipment... you kinda have to put it on, that's part of the game. But you have the choice to run without it, it's going to be difficult but no one is stopping you.

 

@ OP

 

When there is an overwhelming number of people agreeing with a message somebody is saying and a developer decides to throw a temper tantrum in front of thousands and thousands of customers because he pointed out flaws in their system does not make them "the man" it makes him look stupid. Rather than blowing up he should have at least took the time to read the rest of what he was saying instead of the first part that offended him. When he did this he missed the point that Rebecca probably would have been able to get across if she had the chance to before Steve went and blew up on Zamboni. If he had actually took the time to read the thread(which I'm pretty sure he didn't) he would have known what the point was. 

 

This whole thing would have been a great thing to actually talk about. This was what a lot of us were waiting to be talked about on stream for once.

 

Can you link that post?

Because i think folks need to understand that these people get flooded with stuff all day long, he has probably seen this subject a million times now so i very unreasonable to expect a detail answer to your specific post. If he was given an overall answer to the point of the thread i think that's as much as you are going to get from a Stream.

 

Maybe it would be a solution. However I personally would prefer exploring the mission difficulty option. While both have problems of their own, the flexibility of mission difficulty route is more apealing, at least on the paper. Though I can not shake the feeling that what would happen to players ang matches found, since we would all be divided now.

 

Not only that but people will likely complain about loot, how the more difficult missions should have the better rewards.

There are a lot of challenges when adding difficulty option in this type of game. Which is why they are probably focus on just providing it at the higher ranks

[KvotheTheArcane1]

I dont play DS so i dont understand what you are trying to convey here... are these challenges? Is this what you are asking for? Because you can try all this stuff in Warframe. I actually put on the Hawk/Eagle mods so i can have a better time at going for weakspots since they have multipliers to dmg. Do you want some skill challenges included in the game?

Well then, no wonder it's a lost cause trying to explain it to you. Go watch some videos of dark souls, or better yet, go play it. You'll understand then.

 

This video uses story and stage construction as examples which had nothing to do with equipment.

And, like i said above, i run Rejuv and Vitality only most of the time.... is that not a choice?

Or using the video.... are you saying that putting on mods means we dont have a choice? Cause.... it's equipment... you kinda have to put it on, that's part of the game. But you have the choice to run without it, it's going to be difficult but no one is stopping you.

Replace "story" in every instance with "equipment".

 

It's not about what example they chose to you, it's about what illusion of choice is. Assuming you don't want to handicap yourself, there is no reason to take hawk eye over more damage. The extra damage will generally give better results than the zoom will, mostly because weapons aren't perfectly accurate/have recoil.

[Mak_Gohae]

Well then, no wonder it's a lost cause trying to explain it to you. Go watch some videos of dark souls, or better yet, go play it. You'll understand then.

 

 

In a previous post i asked for you to explain  your point for folks that do not play the game so yeah.

BTW, since i dont play the game..... i would have no idea what to look for so, again, i ask you to provide some examples of what you mean.

Can you link some videos?

 

Replace "story" in every instance with "equipment".

 

It's not about what example they chose to you, it's about what illusion of choice is. Assuming you don't want to handicap yourself, there is no reason to take hawk eye over more damage. The extra damage will generally give better results than the zoom will, mostly because weapons aren't perfectly accurate/have recoil.

 

But this is your view of things, again, this is your view of things.

With Hawk/Eagle i have a better chance at hitting weak points that have big multipliers to damage.

If you dont care to aim, of course, the better choice is to not take that mod, but this is your choice.

You line of thought is damage better, ergo, taking damage... dammit the game is giving me no choice but to take damage.

Sorry but this is you and not the game.

 

I think another problem about this is that the rewards drive everyone mad to get to the goal ASAP so people go for the shorter root which requires this type of stuff. And there are people that fold to that and just do what others tell them. Again, your choice.

You bend to a specific playstyle then blame the game for it. So what you are saying is that you want the game to tell you how to play but at the same time you complain when they sort of do.... MOsprey. So there's this weird whirlpool going around here that doesnt make sense.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

In a previous post i asked for you to explain  your point for folks that do not play the game so yeah.

BTW, since i dont play the game..... i would have no idea what to look for so, again, i ask you to provide some examples of what you mean.

Can you link some videos?

I'm not gonna link videos, I'm saying, go watch some. Even if they play poor and die often, it still shows my point. Videos don't do the game justice, the best experience would simply be playing, even if it was for a short time, like half an hour or so.

[Nagisawa]

Why is anyone responding to Mak?  The issue is that the OP never has any sort of concrete point to make or counter, and simply tries to brush off any issue that people bring up.  And yes, some of these threads are not really relevent or are missing the point, but Mak NEVER addresses this, simply intent on shutting down conversation.

 

And shutting down conversation about any sort of feed back kills games faster.  And I've got a sneaky suspicion that Mak truly HATES Warframe, which is why he plays this role.  Because he knows, the more people he annoys enough to leave, the less money DE makes, and the faster Warframe shuts down.

[Llyssa]

Having actually seen it now, I'm trying to figure out which part of "You're full of ridiculous bullS#&$." they would like to try and discuss with Steve.

[Xylia]

As outspoken as I am about Weapon Mods in other threads, I'm right there with the OP (and Steve in the Devstream) in saying that the Mod System is good!

 

The problem is, though, is that we need better balance.

 

The problems with the mods...

 

1). Damage mods are just too darn powerful. They turn 99% of the game into cakewalk, and for anything to be "challenging", it has to kill you in 2-3 seconds flat. Everything is either too easy, or too balls-hard, and there's absolutely nothing in-between because of mods that allow us to drop anything (except for the balls-hard stuff) in 1-2 seconds flat. What good does it do us to have all of these utility mods when you're stacking multishot, damage, and 1-2 elements + maybe a mutator for bullet hose weapons... by the time you do that, you don't have any room for "Utility" mods. Same goes for Warframes and Power Mods (Duration, Efficiency, Power Strength, etc). Once you get those on there (plus a Redirection, because yanno, mobs that kill you in 2 seconds flat are the current fad; without Redirection you die in 1 hit period unless you're Valkyr), you don't have room for Handspring, etc.

 

2). Mod Drop Locations really need a look. We need to move mods like Hornet Strike to better enemies (seriously? Toxic Ancients? lol....) so that players can actually find the stupid things.

 

3). Remove the stinkin' Warframe Power Mods already. Put em up in the Market for Credits. I hate how 8 out of 10 Rares that drop are Warframe Powers, and 1 out of 10 is a Fusion Core... and the remaining 10% of all Rare Mod drops are actual non-power rares.

 

4). The Forma System could use a look at too. It completely invalidates the Mod Capacity System (you can put any 8 mods on any weapon and never run out of capacity, ever). The only time a player cares about Mod Capacity Points, is when they are trying to level a weapon, and then it doesn't make the game interesting; it makes the game tedious because you can't fit enough mods on your weapon to actually use the weapon and have fun doing it without putting at the very least, a potato on it. A gun without Serration/Multistrike is a gun that doesn't do enough damage to do anything reasonably high level that you would actually get reward from. Serration and Multistrike alone take up nearly 30 Capacity Points with no Polarities (guns that have V polarities naturally are incredibly rare). By the time you can fit Serration/Multistrike on your weapon, it is almost maxed out and will likely be headed for the scrap heap as most weapons are not powerful enough to bother with beyond leveling to 30 anyways.

 

Address some of these problems.... and I bet a lot fewer players could complain about the Mod System.

 

EDIT: If Mak was to see Dark Souls...

 

 

The guy in this video is mildly above-average in terms of skill and is highly overlevelled.

 

Notice how Dark Souls is mostly fair (though this boss battle is thought of as one of the most BS fights in the whole game, despite it only being about halfway through the game), but punishes you hard for failing to dodge telegraphed attacks (note how he almost gets killed from the impale attack). Also note that green orb floating in the corner of the room -- he died there earlier, which means even this guy failed that boss fight at least once.

 

The game gives you plenty of chances to avoid getting hit, but punishes you for failing to observe your surroundings. Going slow and checking around corners will save your life many times over.

Edited July 5, 2014 by Xylia

[Mak_Gohae]

 

1). Damage mods are just too darn powerful. They turn 99% of the game into cakewalk, and for anything to be "challenging", it has to kill you in 2-3 seconds flat. Everything is either too easy, or too balls-hard, and there's absolutely nothing in-between because of mods that allow us to drop anything (except for the balls-hard stuff) in 1-2 seconds flat.

 

What' ranks are you talking about?

Because it's pretty obvious that the higher the rank you have the higher the rank the enemy is needed for the game to be a challenge. And this is why we got Tier 4 and porbably t5 in the future. 

 

What good does it do us to have all of these utility mods when you're stacking multishot, damage, and 1-2 elements + maybe a mutator for bullet hose weapons... by the time you do that, you don't have any room for "Utility" mods.

 

By the time you do this you have 3 slots left, how many utility mods are you looking to use?

The point of the system is to make a choice of what to use not you put every single mod that you can.

If people choose to go all damage that's their choice. It's also their choice to give up some of that and pick something else. Why are poeple waiting for the game to get rules change so they can do this? You can do it now.

 

Same goes for Warframes and Power Mods (Duration, Efficiency, Power Strength, etc). Once you get those on there (plus a Redirection, because yanno, mobs that kill you in 2 seconds flat are the current fad; without Redirection you die in 1 hit period unless you're Valkyr), you don't have room for Handspring, etc.

 

Not all frames need these mods. Flow is for continued casting, if you have flow you should be casting abilities in constant basis, if you are not you are wasting space. Flow is for frames like Vauban and Nova Science Now so they can continue to throw their balls out. Pirateframe doesnt need Flow if you have duration because his spells are locked by casting time and with duration you can have barrage lasting 10 sec and the tentacles lasting close to a minute. The only way you are going to run out of energy will be if you constantly cast Tidal Surge which is possible but that means you are just focused on one ability.

 

And i dont run Shield most of the time but i do run Vitality and i do fine. What exactly is the situation where they are killing you at 2 seconds? If all these example are based on t4 Survival 2 hours in, that is another conversation.

 

 

EDIT: If Mak was to see Dark Souls...

 

 

The guy in this video is mildly above-average in terms of skill and is highly overlevelled.

 

Notice how Dark Souls is mostly fair (though this boss battle is thought of as one of the most BS fights in the whole game, despite it only being about halfway through the game), but punishes you hard for failing to dodge telegraphed attacks (note how he almost gets killed from the impale attack). Also note that green orb floating in the corner of the room -- he died there earlier, which means even this guy failed that boss fight at least once.

 

The game gives you plenty of chances to avoid getting hit, but punishes you for failing to observe your surroundings. Going slow and checking around corners will save your life many times over.

 

Well uh.... this is a melee single player game you are using here to compare against a co-op shooter so there are some obvious things that dont click. First is that since it's single player the enemy can be more focused on you and the attacks mostly focus on one target which gives the game creators the ability to do  a little more wit the encounters. Dark Sector actually had fights like this. Second, the gameplay was extremely slow, maybe because this is a melee game that is not the arcade viriety. This doesnt connect that well with Warframe.

 

Outside of having a lot of health i didnt see how this fight was that different from what we have in Warframe. They both have a handful of attacks that they repeat over and over and i guess the different is that in DS every attack is deadly vs in Warframe where bosses usually have one or two mega attacks like that.

 

I guess Warframe is too quick for people to enjoy the boss battles? I mean, when you get max rank mods and pop in and basically one-shot the boss there is little to do. DE put DMG cap to make people enjoy the figths like this but people got mad. Which is something that happens in this board all the time, you complain about something, it gets fix, then the people get mad at the fix.

 

The main problem here that i see if that anyone can join any game so they cant balance around that. I've seen plenty of times when i pop into a low rank boss with people playing for the first time and some maxed dude pops in,  blows, through the boss, and no one gets to see anything. Ive been asking for mission parameter to be added to separate people farming from people going through for the first time since i started leveling my second frame but that has never really been delved into by DE. They said they had better match making but i dont really feel it.

 

 

[Xylia]

What' ranks are you talking about?

Because it's pretty obvious that the higher the rank you have the higher the rank the enemy is needed for the game to be a challenge. And this is why we got Tier 4 and porbably t5 in the future.

 

Except that "Rank" (I assume you mean, Mastery Rank because the block you quoted does not actually contain the word, 'rank') does not increase your power whatsoever.

 

Doesn't matter if you are MR1 or MR16, you are still just as powerful. You can level all the weapons in the world and it means nothing without the mods.

 

 

 

By the time you do this you have 3 slots left, how many utility mods are you looking to use?

 

There's 8 slots in a gun, right? Too bad a minimum of 5-6 of them "must" be used for pure damage. That's the point. They can add all the new utility mods they want, but a lot of them will probably not be used unless they are good enough to boot out existing mods that people use in their builds already. Can you really say that +165% damage will get replaced anyday soon? How about 280% multishot? Or the Elements?

 

 

 

The point of the system is to make a choice of what to use not you put every single mod that you can.

 

Choosing the gimp yourself just for the sake of choice does not make a good argument. Nobody in their right mind lowers their performance "because I can".

 

 

 

If people choose to go all damage that's their choice.

 

Except the game is balanced around going all-out damage and if you don't, you're going to have a bad time (insert South Park Ski Instructor Meme here.)

 

 

 

It's also their choice to give up some of that and pick something else.

 

Not really, unless you're doing Lowbie stuff. You seriously gonna tell me you do T3 Survival or Defense with lots of utility mods on your weapons? lol. Right, sure. Maybe if you have a fully decked out team killing everything for you and you end up with 5% of the damage done End-of-Mission...

 

 

 

Why are poeple waiting for the game to get rules change so they can do this? You can do it now.

 

Sure, you can do it now.... at the severe cost of performance. The numbers End-of-Mission don't lie. If you deck your weapons out with lots of Reload Speed, Clip Size, Zoom, and other similar things and only put a couple damage mods on... your performance will suck, and suck hard compared to the others who went in with the "required" mods.

 

The devs themselves have acknowledged "Required" mods in this past Devstream, the very same devstream you're cheering!

 

If THAT doesn't tell you that these mods really are "Required" then I don't know what to say to you.

 

Outside of having a lot of health i didnt see how this fight was that different from what we have in Warframe. They both have a handful of attacks that they repeat over and over and i guess the different is that in DS every attack is deadly vs in Warframe where bosses usually have one or two mega attacks like that.

 

Dark Souls emphasizes skill over gear. You need to know when to dodge and when to attack, or you will get your butt handed to you on a silver platter. Not only by bosses, but by EVERYTHING in the game. It is why it is very often referred to when people talk about "Hard Games" and it is one of the very few games (outside of the others in the franchise) that were released within the last 10 years that are featured in the "NintendoHard" section of Tvtropes. People call it Hard for a reason, because they're not used to a game where you need actual skill to win.

 

I showed you a boss fight. Normal play involves being aware of your surroundings, memorizing where enemies are, dealing with enemy attacks, and being aware of your surroundings while dealing with enemy attacks, and going in prepared. And yes, I'm aware I repeated the surroundings thing twice, because it is so bloody important in that game. You see a hallway. Did you run into that hallway? There's probably a skeleton waiting just out of view that konks you in the side. By the time you get back up, there's 2 more running in the room from the next room and you're in a jam now. There's an animated gif that appeared on Memebase awhile back where this guy was playing Dark Souls... he ran across a bridge and past a pillar. A zombie stabs him in the side and he falls right off the bridge because he wasn't paying attention and he didn't look around the corner before going.

 

I guess Warframe is too quick for people to enjoy the boss battles? I mean, when you get max rank mods and pop in and basically one-shot the boss there is little to do. DE put DMG cap to make people enjoy the figths like this but people got mad. Which is something that happens in this board all the time, you complain about something, it gets fix, then the people get mad at the fix.

 

I liked Lephantis and Sargas Ruk. The ONLY thing I didn't like about Lephantis is how buggy it was when it first came out, where damage numbers didn't show up for clients, sometimes hits would not register for clients. Once they worked out most of the bugs... Lephantis is still one of the most epic feeling fights in the game.

 

Vay Hek is... meh. I have mixed feels about Vay Hek. I don't like that stupid "HAHA I HEAL TO FULL!" if you leave but one guy running around and he runs away from you and drains that guy. Cheap, cheap, cheap. And the constant knockdown explosions everywhere are annoying, but otherwise he was a pretty good fight too, despite his invulnerable phases.

Edited July 5, 2014 by Xylia

[notlamprey]

My initial thoughts on the mod system and balance:

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/257516-balance-in-warframe-and-purposeful-imbalance/

[Mak_Gohae]

 

Except that "Rank" (I assume you mean, Mastery Rank because the block you quoted does not actually contain the word, 'rank') does not increase your power whatsoever.

 

Doesn't matter if you are MR1 or MR16, you are still just as powerful. You can level all the weapons in the world and it means nothing without the mods.

 

 

 

 

"Rank" is the warframe word used to mean levels. Given that we are talking about mods, why would you think when i said rank i meant Mastery Rank? I am talking about mod ranks.

 

 

There's 8 slots in a gun, right? Too bad a minimum of 5-6 of them "must" be used for pure damage. That's the point. They can add all the new utility mods they want, but a lot of them will probably not be used unless they are good enough to boot out existing mods that people use in their builds already. Can you really say that +165% damage will get replaced anyday soon? How about 280% multishot? Or the Elements?

 

You DO know that every time you try to make this point you are leaving several slots open where you can put in utility mods, right? Before it was 3 and now it's 3-2 open slots... why are you not putting utility mods in those open slots?

What's your idea of utility mod use? Adding in 5 to six utility mods? Is that your point? Since you put almost every damage mod you also want almost every utility mod?

 

Like i said before, the mod system is about choice, you pick whether to go one way or another. You are not supposed to be able to put every single mod in.

 

Choosing the gimp yourself just for the sake of choice does not make a good argument. Nobody in their right mind lowers their performance "because I can".

 

But what is the goal you are trying to accomplish?

If you are going for one thing, of course, you should not randomly put mods that dont work with that build but if you are not you are not gimping yourself. If i put in Hawk/Eagle Eye.... i should be aiming for the weak spots because that's the point of better Zoom. Of course, if you are not going to aim, there is not point in putting that mod on.

 

There is not just one way to mod your stuff, dude.

 

 

 

Except the game is balanced around going all-out damage and if you don't, you're going to have a bad time (insert South Park Ski Instructor Meme here.)

 

Not really, unless you're doing Lowbie stuff. You seriously gonna tell me you do T3 Survival or Defense with lots of utility mods on your weapons? lol. Right, sure. Maybe if you have a fully decked out team killing everything for you and you end up with 5% of the damage done End-of-Mission...

 

Now you clarify the problem as i suspected above.

You do not need to put in "lots" of utility mods, you can put in one or two. When you create a build you create a balace for a certain playstyle. A balance doesnt meant putting every single mod that exist.

 

Sure, you can do it now.... at the severe cost of performance. The numbers End-of-Mission don't lie. If you deck your weapons out with lots of Reload Speed, Clip Size, Zoom, and other similar things and only put a couple damage mods on... your performance will suck, and suck hard compared to the others who went in with the "required" mods.

 

The devs themselves have acknowledged "Required" mods in this past Devstream, the very same devstream you're cheering!

 

If THAT doesn't tell you that these mods really are "Required" then I don't know what to say to you.

 

Like i said above, you have an incorrect view on how to equip mods.

The limited space is supposed to make you think on what to equip. It's like cooking, you are supposed to throw a little bit of this and that, you are not supposed to just throw everything in and watch it burn. It's some damage, some elemental, some utility. At no one has anyone said, you have to be able to equip all damage, all elemental, all utility.

 

Dark Souls emphasizes skill over gear. You need to know when to dodge and when to attack, or you will get your butt handed to you on a silver platter. Not only by bosses, but by EVERYTHING in the game. It is why it is very often referred to when people talk about "Hard Games" and it is one of the very few games (outside of the others in the franchise) that were released within the last 10 years that are featured in the "NintendoHard" section of Tvtropes. People call it Hard for a reason, because they're not used to a game where you need actual skill to win.

 

Outside of being slow, close range, and taking heavy damage, there's nothing in that game that make it seem that special from what i've seen.  It looks to be like a melee version of the Rainbow Six games. I guess it has been so long where game that kill you quick that when this came out a certain group of players were surprised because they have not experieced these types of games.

 

I showed you a boss fight. Normal play involves being aware of your surroundings, memorizing where enemies are, dealing with enemy attacks, and being aware of your surroundings while dealing with enemy attacks, and going in prepared. And yes, I'm aware I repeated the surroundings thing twice, because it is so bloody important in that game. You see a hallway. Did you run into that hallway? There's probably a skeleton waiting just out of view that konks you in the side. By the time you get back up, there's 2 more running in the room from the next room and you're in a jam now. There's an animated gif that appeared on Memebase awhile back where this guy was playing Dark Souls... he ran across a bridge and past a pillar. A zombie stabs him in the side and he falls right off the bridge because he wasn't paying attention and he didn't look around the corner before going.

 

And you have to do this in this game to a lesser degree and there are groups of people that dont. There are a bunch of threads about people complaining about X mob that could be easily solved by them paying attention. Hek, the M Osprey was one of those things, the enemy could not be more blatant and people were acting like the thing was a ninja. If you want Warframe to be MORE like that i think the forums will explode.

 

Seriously, if you cant handle what Warframe is right now i dont know how people will react if this game goes DS on us.

 

I liked Lephantis and Sargas Ruk. The ONLY thing I didn't like about Lephantis is how buggy it was when it first came out, where damage numbers didn't show up for clients, sometimes hits would not register for clients. Once they worked out most of the bugs... Lephantis is still one of the most epic feeling fights in the game.

 

Vay Hek is... meh. I have mixed feels about Vay Hek. I don't like that stupid "HAHA I HEAL TO FULL!" if you leave but one guy running around and he runs away from you and drains that guy. Cheap, cheap, cheap. And the constant knockdown explosions everywhere are annoying, but otherwise he was a pretty good fight too, despite his invulnerable phases.

 

Well, they are passing through all the bosses and will continue to .

So stuff will improve.

[drMightyPotato]

I honestpy have no idea what people are arguing about in this thread. Personaly i go with it like this : 'oppinions are like A******s, everyone has one'. Ultimately its DEs game im glad that they finnaly stood up to deffend ther work. Furthermore i also dont understand why some people try to explain their viewing of the game and how they play. Personaly i like damage a put nearly every damage mod inmy weapon i can find. My gf likes utility i she does fine with half the damage i have. Oppinions are not to be disscused. Ever.

If people would try to defednd therir oppinion the way this community does daily we would soon find out alot of sceletons running around. Chill.

Edited July 5, 2014 by Alinna

[Guest Tehnoobshow]

Steve is love

Steve is life

All will be gone when PW takes over

[Hueminator]

It is always good to hear DE opinion about their creations. I love the comment from Scott (I think) that "I can pop snow globe goes afk and pop it again later"  before Frost nerf.

Edited July 6, 2014 by Hueminator

[5Billion]

Hm. Have to see this now, but I find the most amusing answer so far:

 

"HE DID IT WRONG! HE SHOULD COME TO THE FORUMS SO WE CAN NIT-PICK HIS REASONING UNTIL HE FINALLY AGREES WITH US!"

 

Gee, I wonder why he doesn't want to do that.

Better than him calling it bullS#&$ and not even explaining why.

 

When Devs post in the forums or PM us, it lets us know that we are actual people to them, and not just things to make money off of. Maybe his reasoning for liking the mod system is faulty, and MAYBE the community disliking the current mod system is flawed, but we can't move forward if it's gon be like this.