What Is A "prime" Really?

[Grimm]

frankly no one but de really knows, since if you read the mag described it talks like mag was prime, but eculs described just says he was the first. my guess is the primes are what happened when the oriken try the corrupt the tenno but they fight back and take control leaving there free will unlike the void creaters we fight

i'm not gonna fix the mistakes 

[zergla]

This thread looks like random philosophy class.

And isn't it so much better than all the damn hype threads and rants?

[HansDecatur]

While rummaging in the Void on a "grab and stab" mission, I was suddenly seized by a strange idea ... what do we really know about the "Primes"?

 

when i read this i was suddenly seized by a strange question, what do we really know about "grab and stab"? :-D

[ENIAK_Prime]

A miserable little pi-

"What is a 'Prime' really?"
A miserable little pile of secrets, that's what.

Gooood dammit...

[RoboDoge]

And isn't it so much better than all the damn hype threads and rants?

They are on the different level completely.

 

 

This one have some points of intelligence, while hype threads are just horrible by definition.

[Mak_Gohae]

Primes are supposed to be the first prototype batch of Warframes before they went into mass production.

But given that now anyone can get them that story has to be changed.

And they might have with the whole high guardian thing.

The Primes are the high guardians, the top of the class, while the low guardians got the standard frames.

This can explain why the Stalker is using a standard Excalibur suit. 

 

You know what DE should do? If you kill a boss using a prime you get a better chance at getting an attack from the Stalker.

[ElHefe]

@ zergla ... Nice crisp thinking

 

Your point that we haven't seen any "aberrant" behavior of a Prime warframe should be qualified as:  only SO FAR ...

Maybe the PrimeFrame is a "Trojan Horse"

 

Regarding the Prime as a "shackle" - well, that is just a fanciful speculation on my part as I haven't found anything directly in the Warframe Codex that indicates ANYTHING about the primes

 

Your question "Do the Tenno feel fear and sympathy?" has MANY aspects for me ...

First, since WE - meaning the players - ARE the Tenno, then the answer is "yes" in so far as what we bring to the game

BUT in terms of the storyline itself, the answer isn't so clear ... these emotions and attitudes - even their very physiology - could have been either eradicated by the Orokin through their "training camps" to make the Tenno invincible OR maybe necessary INTRINSIC characteristics of a "successful" Tenno conversion with the Technocyte OR merely lost through the desensitization of military life and war (much like the goal of Bushido - to be able to imagine one's death dispassionately every day without sentiment)

NOTE:  I highly recommend the classic Hagakure - really great stuff of the way of the Samurai

 

Your last point about the Tenno being kids and children develop a sense of right and wrong early is a really strong one ...

BUT consider the mind set of a modern day suicide bomber or a reformed Klansman - there is a lot of really mixed up value systems there, friend

[mistopportunity]

Think it's time for me to unfollow the thread XD

[ElHefe]

@ HansDecatur ... Hehe, a bit of my own jargon

 

Definiton.  Grab and stab:  an activity wherein the gamer(s) conducts a mission for the principle reason to obtain an item (e.g. a specific mod, prime part, warframe) and expends as little time possible in dispatching opponents who stand in the way of that object of desire and the exit

[zergla]

 

@ zergla ... Nice crisp thinking

 

Your point that we haven't seen any "aberrant" behavior of a Prime warframe should be qualified as:  only SO FAR ...

Maybe the PrimeFrame is a "Trojan Horse"

*Tinfoil hat goes on"

 

Regarding the Prime as a "shackle" - well, that is just a fanciful speculation on my part as I haven't found anything directly in the Warframe Codex that indicates ANYTHING about the primes

Just working of your statements here

 

Your question "Do the Tenno feel fear and sympathy?" has MANY aspects for me ...

First, since WE - meaning the players - ARE the Tenno, then the answer is "yes" in so far as what we bring to the game

True, but, then again, this discussion is a look on the in-game lore, we're just analyzing.

 

BUT in terms of the storyline itself, the answer isn't so clear ... these emotions and attitudes - even their very physiology - could have been either eradicated by the Orokin through their "training camps" to make the Tenno invincible OR maybe necessary INTRINSIC characteristics of a "successful" Tenno conversion with the Technocyte OR merely lost through the desensitization of military life and war (much like the goal of Bushido - to be able to imagine one's death dispassionately every day without sentiment)

Your guess is as good as mine on that subject.

 

NOTE:  I highly recommend the classic Hagakure - really great stuff of the way of the Samurai

I might just do that

 

Your last point about the Tenno being kids and children develop a sense of right and wrong early is a really strong one ...

BUT consider the mind set of a modern day suicide bomber or a reformed Klansman - there is a lot of really mixed up value systems there, friend

But those values came from surroundings. They were all convinced by outside influences, something I was clear that the Tenno probably didn't have, that the way of strapping a bomb to their chests, charge into a crowd and pray to the spaghetti monster for some extra meatballs.

Then again, there's always the possibility that the Tenno were in the Void for so long that simply went insane and are now homicidal maniacs with the power to decimate a galaxy wide empire.

 

Edited July 10, 2014 by zergla

[ElHefe]

@ Mak_Gohae ...

 

I have read elsewhere that primes were prototypes BUT, aren't they awful fancy as a prototype?  Recall the Excalibur prototype ... no grill work for that bastard

 

I like the idea of the Primes being "high guardians" of the Orokin elite/Royalty ... if for no other reason than they would not clash with the wife's columns and fountains (which she must be very taken to since there are so damn many in the Orokin ships)

 

BUT if they were the praetorian guard, then the Orokin would have been VERY, VERY cautious about letting them be free

Again, think about how Caesar ended up and you can bet that the Orokin were VERY, VERY good students of history

 

Lastly, I like your take on Stalker but wasn't the warframe designed specifically for the Tenno?  Maybe Stalker (and those of his station) had a "biosuit" but not of the same design as a warframe.  Maybe Stalker got the suit off a dead Tenno, that is what he/she/other is wearing "today" wasn't the same thing on "Terminus Day"

Edited July 10, 2014 by ElHefe

[SilentMobius]

@ sorq ...

 

Yes!  The Orokin ship AI would have manufacturing/engineering resources to keep itself in such pristine repair ...

In fact, for the Orokin to reach such a level of "high civilization" much of the manual labor would be either automated or done by slave/drones

 

As a side note:  recall Excalibur's codex entry of how the Sentients used the Orokin technology against them

WHAT IF these "abandoned" Orokin ships "lost" in the Void were actually scrapped by the Orokin before the Tenno revolt because their ship AI had been over run by a Sentient AI (like in Halo where Covenant ships could taken over by Alliance AIs?) 

 

They aren't Orokin ships, they are "Towers" static emplacements stored in the void with entry coordinates in realspace.

The Orokin derelicts are ships.

 

The Prime Warframe are simply the standard design that Orokin came up with the reason the exist is because the Orokin wanted Warframes that this is _why_ they made. Just like _everything_ they made it has extensive use of forma in it's construction hence the gold everywhere. The non-prime version of the Warframes are simply the Tenno re-engineering the production of Warframes to not require so much rare and unproducible Orokin components.

 

If the Prime Warframes allowed neural sentry-like control:

 

A: Why can we visit Orokin towers with the sentry active without issue

B: How did the Tenno slaughter the Orokin (Stalker codex)

 

Finally, it's pretty clear that the Void energy (That the Orokin didn't understand) courcing through the Tenno and by extension, their Warframes, disrupts whatever tech-control the Sentients had. What makes you think that the Neural Sentry tech would be immune to that disruption? If the Orokin could control the Tenno through neural sentry tech then all the sentients needed was to gain control of the neural sentry tech and the Tenno would have been no threat at all.

 

No the entire story relies on the Tenno being independent actors in the Sentients War. 

[ElHefe]

@ zergla ... "spaghetti monster"?!  too damn funny

 

You might be on to something with the "insanity" idea and here are a few things to think why:

1. The Codex is quite explicit about the terrible nature of the Void as it is about the misery that the Tenno were subjected to

2. Insanity is in self a rich literary theme ... from the ensuing guilt of "temporary" insanity to the ridiculously convoluted ways to define it (medical psychosis (loss of reality) to moral subjectivism ("you'd have to be CRAZY to do that") much less experience it 

3. Good drama factor - like a Greek tragedy ("those whom the Gods would destroy they first drive mad") ... the Tenno were unique and in their way the best that the Orokin had to offer only to be themselves destroyed at their hand

[Brahmastra]

Used to be something special.. now its just gold.

[zergla]

@ zergla ... "spaghetti monster"?!  too damn funny

 

You might be on to something with the "insanity" idea and here are a few things to think why:

1. The Codex is quite explicit about the terrible nature of the Void as it is about the misery that the Tenno were subjected to

https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/4298519808/h2270E82B/[/img 

2. Insanity is in self a rich literary theme ... from the ensuing guilt of "temporary" insanity to the ridiculously convoluted ways to define it (medical psychosis (loss of reality) to moral subjectivism ("you'd have to be CRAZY to do that") much less experience it

I'm talking "genocide on a regular basis because that goddamn Barrel Diffusion mod won't drop" insane. Think Anders Breivik crazy, not #YOLOMcSWAG crazy

 

3. Good drama factor - like a Greek tragedy ("those whom the Gods would destroy they first drive mad") ... the Tenno were unique and in their way the best that the Orokin had to offer only to be themselves destroyed at their hand

I'm really struggling to think up a joke about this part, THAT is a proper tragedy. The Gods must wish to destroy me.

[zergla]

Used to be something special.. now its just gold.

Thread Prime? My morning has certainly been controlled by this thread. 

[rangeless]

id imagine de would put some secret quests in future updates .....I WANT TO KICK SOME OROKIN BUTT. BRING ON THE OROKIN ARMIES. I WILL FIGHT THEM 1000 V 1!

[koopagon]

i have a feeling it is more likely the orokin tried to collar the tenno but never realized that they only had control over the tenno so long as they werent the largest threat or that the tenno were indeed collared but the collar was cut or didn't last.

 

now i know the tenno were possibly a trial to see the effects the void would have on unprotected beings, but what if when they returned instead of just being thrown into quarantine, they instead started training them as tools to help further their reach? lets not forget that, for what we know, at least some of the original tenno were children. so going by the idea that most were children returning from the void they would likely have either been trained or segregated for reeducation and reintegration if not simple quarantine and study since for all political purposes these children did not exist.

 

but there are several pieces of important information missing between the many snippets of lore we have gotten like how much time has elapsed between the ember prime entry and the mag prime entry or were the orokin at war already with the sentients when ember's entry takes place. though thinking on it a bit there's probably a slightly better chance ember's entry takes place after the war began and they were starting to look for possible weapons to monopolize. which would then push me more towards the possibility they would be more inclined to train the tenno as weapons.

 

now following that idea that they went with training instead of quarantine, we can infer that many more 'accidents' like Kaleen's possibly happened. and going out on a bit of a limb, they may have culled out the ones less responsive to the training. and if they did indeed cull the ranks the 'pre-tenno' there could be some resentment or even malice towards the orokin. so the orokin may have instituted a process to attempt to control the tenno from there to make a weapon suited to combating the sentients

 

and some more speculation but i cant help but think theres a possibility that the orokin/sentient war may have been started by either side. now lets look at this a bit. the orokin are this grand empire. they may very well think they are helping people by absorbing them into their empire, what if the sentients were merely another empire or race doing their own thing when the orokin basically pulled a 'conform or die' deal and the sentients didnt want to play ball?

 

it could even be the opposite way and the orokin were minding their own business when the sentients butting in and put several ruins where orokin settlements were. either way, looking at whats left of them in the game, namely the orokin towers we visit, we can deduce near the end they were more interested in control and retaining if not expanding it.

 

so by the end of the war when the tenno rebelled they may have tried to turn on the mind control or it was already active and the tenno found a way to break it. keep in mind Rebecca did let slip the lotus is indeed an AI and there's a possibility that it is the reason tenno are free as they are now. or the reason tenno are free is someone spilled cola on the controls.

 

TLDR; failed mind control ho, and i should sleep.

Edited July 10, 2014 by koopagon

[ElHefe]

@ SilentMobius ... Wow!  A lot to digest

 

First, thanks for the correction about the Void locations being towers and not ships ... I assumed that they were because the floor plans are nearly identical

Do you have a reference for that?

 

Second, are you saying that what makes a prime a prime is the amount of forma?  Makes sense on several levels - appearance of the forma box and the primeframe and the need to use additional forma to upgrade a warframe.

BUT, wouldn't then a "regular", Tenno made warframe EVENTUALLY look like an Orokin "original" Primeframe after using enough Forma?

 

Additionally, aren't you assuming that the Orokin make everything - regardless of purpose - the same way?  Wouldn't there be "levels" of warframes?

 

As an aside ...

Question to you:  Was Forma the basis of Orokin wealth?

 

Finally, about Void Energy ...

I follow you about the Orokin didn't fully understand it and that it gave the Tenno the edge to defeat the Sentients

BUT where is it that this meant that it "disrupts" whatever tech-control the Sentients had?

 

Excalibur's codex refers to how the Orokin "technology" was used against them by the Sentients and that they could adapt to improvements the Orokin made on their EXISTING weaponry/weapon systems

BUT what made the Void altered, warframe suited Tenno more effective isn't spelled out

 

A closing thought ... do we REALLY know that the Voided/Framed Tenno defeated the Sentients?

Just because the Orokin thought so doesn't make it so ...

 

WHAT IF it was not a Tenno "victory" but a standoff?

So hear me out ...

The Sentients, who had been winning the war with the Orokin of which the outcome seemed certain, now confronted the Voided/Framed Tenno who could hold their own against the Sentients

Rather than fighting to the death, the Sentients offer the Tenno a truce

A truce that is accepted - again out of self preservation

The Tenno - who are out of sight from the Orokin - as this final conflict with the Sentients is well beyond the solar system (is it in the Void itself?) - can return to Earth as heroes

The ultimate reasons for Tenno betrayal of the Orokin could be for any of the reasons I have already stated

 

Admittedly this is far-fetched but only in so far as history is ... for history is never what we thought it to be 

[STARSBarry]

errrr..... this?

 

[Kartumterek]

Prime is Orokin tech. All it is. The oldest and the best as of now. Original Issue

[SilentMobius]

First, thanks for the correction about the Void locations being towers and not ships ... I assumed that they were because the floor plans are nearly identical

Do you have a reference for that?

 

It's in the Wiki, when the missions were first launched they were referred to as the "Orokin Towers" here's a guide from the time of the launch: http://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/1f2mfv/the_ultimate_orokin_tower_guide/

 

Second, are you saying that what makes a prime a prime is the amount of forma?

 

Not really, What I'm saying is that forma is the standard building material of the Orokin, along with Orokin power cells and other non-replicable items and that the Tenno versions of the Orokin originals were made in to minimize the amount of these materials that were needed.

 

Forma is like clay, it can be used for anything, when we apply forma we're not making structural changes were simply optimizing the mod handling centers, constructing new energy paths in the Warframe which would be impossible without forma.

 

Additionally, aren't you assuming that the Orokin make everything - regardless of purpose - the same way?  Wouldn't there be "levels" of warframes?

 

No, the Tenno aren't regular military, the Orokin made then as a last ditch attempt to stop the Sentients, they are monsters wrapped in the most powerful shell the Orokin could make. The Orokin wouldn't use then as bodyguards or anything like that IMHO from what I've seen of the lore and theme that DE have given us.

 

BUT where is it that this meant that it "disrupts" whatever tech-control the Sentients had?

 

Excalibur codex "The Sentients had won. They had turned our weapons, our technology, against us... In our desperation we turned to the Void"

 

The Void is the source of whatever made the Tenno work against the Sentients, The Mag Prime entry refers to "Void Shields" which are most likely the shields we have now, that is, normal shields, but powered by the Void energy flowing through the Tenno. Where the non-tenno soldiers get "Zero tech" suits, AKA suits with zero tech in them.

 

I don't see that there is any other explanation why the Warframe tech is immune to sentient control, the only thing mentioned is the Void energy.

 

WHAT IF it was not a Tenno "victory" but a standoff?

 

I prefer not to make up lore from whole cloth. The Sentients were defeated, we have no reason to assume the Tenno didn't do precisely as they said they did.

Edited July 11, 2014 by SilentMobius

[OniDax]

No, OP, the lack of any substantial lore is this developer's crowing failure that makes the game all about content, such that when that content is used, people tire of the game and move on to something else until there is another substantial update with content.

 

Oh and the Primes? They're the original Orokin warframes. That's all there is to them, really.

[ElHefe]

@ SilentMobius ... very solid argument using logic's best tool - Occam's Razor (+1)

 

For the moment, I yield the question - and the speculation - of "what is a prime"

BUT a few thoughts ...

 

You claim that the Orokin wouldn't use the Tenno as body guards ... on a certain level I get that - it would be like having a nuclear warhead escorting the president

So question:  Was it the INTENT of the Orokin for the Tenno to return or was it a "suicide" mission where it was expected - maybe even hoped - that the Tenno and the Sentients would wipe each other out

As I see it, that COULD be the best scenario for the Orokin - it would fix two problems in a single stroke

 

Next question:  Assuming that the Orokin did NOT expect the Tenno to return, what would the Orokin do with such power once the war was over?  Stockpile them in cryovaults for the next conflict?  Decommission them - as in dismantling them?  Just the knowledge or awareness on the part of the surviving Tenno of the MERE POSSIBILITY of being locked up/put down could be enough for them to turn on their Lords and Creators

 

I am reminded of the first Sci-Fi novel ever written - Frankenstein by Shelley

In it, the creator is motivated by the simple challenge of "creating/reviving" life only for the "monster" to reject his "creator/master/God"

 

I see parallels between the Orokin - Dr. Frankenstein - and the Tenno - the Monster here

 

Last point:  I very much respect your comment of "not to make up lore from whole cloth" ... Wise and sensible

HOWEVER, as with most questions, it is the joy of just asking the question and not necessarily getting (or expecting to get) its answer that makes the process consistently satisfying 

 

@AntoineFlemming ... again, I must respectfully disagree that "the lack of substantial lore is this developer's crowning failure"

 

I look at it this conundrum this way:  old world narratives (novels, short stories, graphic comics, theater, cinema, TV shows) suffer from being a "closed" system - they each tell a single story and once told are just source material ...

 

New world narratives - video gaming - offers the potential of being an "open" system where the story teller and the story listener interact to create an entirely new story

 

It is this malleability that Roger Ebert based his famous statement that video games will never be art (that and that in games the point is to win)

 

Granted, live dinner theater which allows for audience participation is more like what I term an "open system" and the rigidity of live performance over the centuries has varied quite a bit BUT in modern times it represents a small portion of story telling as we now have it

 

Consequently, whether DE has a Tolkien like compendium of the Warframe Universe or just enough back ground story to make a game work is potentially irrelevant IF they actually USE the ideas that come out of discussions like these in the forums

 

If you have been a mod user for Bethesda games (say Nexus or VGU), then you know that nonprofessionals DO contribute to the commercial product in subsequent versions

 

And THAT is what I like about "poor lore" of Warframe ... it is an INVITATION by those very creative and very focused professionals to US to participate in the telling of OUR story

Edited July 10, 2014 by ElHefe

[ShelbyTrooper]

 

 

Assertion 2:  If the corrupted are indoctrinated, so the Prime Warframe can be too

Answer:  Valid point but consider the following analogy:  I have a PC.  It runs DOS 6.2.  You have a PC.  It runs Win7.  Same "hardware", different "software", absolutely NOTHING in common.  So the Prime Warframe need not be "enabled" to communicate with the "Corrupted" Orokin ship AI/Neural Sentry

 

 

 Remember, in Mass effect, almost any race could be indoctrinated, Turians, Humans, Asaris, so should be the same here, Grineer, corpus, infested, human AND Tennos/Warframes.

 

(I refer humans as the Orokin)

 

 

 

 

Assertion 5:  Would explain why the Prime Warframes gain full energy when are close to the void traps

Now here is something I don't know a thing about ... Are you saying that the Void makes a Prime stronger?

 

 

YES!!!

 

Not literally stronger, pick a prime warframe, and go closest to a traps, you will see your energy filling up from 0 to maximum.

And not only your energy, but the energy of your friends too.

 

 

EDIT: In someplace is wrote "The remaining Orokin left the system and destroyed the Solar Rail of Pluto, letting the Tennos, Grinner, corpus and Infested behind."

(something like that, this last part is not a 100%)

Edited July 10, 2014 by Victor2308