Gender Bias In Warframe Power

[noneuklid]

I do, however, hope that you approach each other game you play with the same zeal for gender equality and ensure that there are equivalently-powerful female representations of soldiers, knights, heavy gunners, etc.

[Cradicias]

I do, however, hope that you approach each other game you play with the same zeal for gender equality and ensure that there are equivalently-powerful female representations of soldiers, knights, heavy gunners, etc.

 

This wasn't even zeal for gender equality, just equality in general XD But, you wanna know what's really #*($%%@ up? The female presentation that was gonna be in the game Warface. Was freaking -bull S#&$-.These are god damn soldiers, why aren't they wearing body armor and helmets and instead wearing tank tops that show off the goods?

 

Edit: Makes me kinda glad they didn't include female models if that was their plan in Warface. Much better physical representation in Warframe.

Edited July 20, 2014 by Cradicias

[(PSN)Bobtm0]

I've always seen things in a different light, the female frames tend to appear to be more powerful, but in actuality they generally are not.  Oddly this is due to them having their style directed more towards offense rather than defense.

 

Rhino v Valkyr;  The former focuses on a wide area CC and radial buff, in addition to having a protective shell to aid in his abilities to survive.  The latter focuses on tearing things to bits either through being buffed by Warcry or just activating Hysteria.  Rhino clearly has the superior CC capabilities and, while his defense doesn't scale, it's still good should a player focus on mobility to evade damage.

 

Loki v Mirage;  The latter is clearly offensively focused (partly bugged of course) and has a few light defensive traits.  The former however can dictate foe locations through manipulating the enemy AI.  Even Mirage's obscene damage capabilities can and will fall off eventually, whereas Loki's CC is never capable of being trounced.

 

Vauban v ???;  Seriously, there's just no female frame counterpart who can CC things in such a way over a wide area.  The only other frame who can CC over a wide area in a direct is Hydroid.  I'd be tempted to throw this comparison to Nyx almost, but it doesn't quite fit the same style.

 

Excalibur v ???;  Kind of at a loss here as well, again Nyx could be put here but even her Chaos pales in comparison to the might that is Radial Blind.  Putting a full-stop to all combat is ridiculous.

 

Volt v ???;  Yeah, I clearly hit a bit of a snag with some of these.  But really though, the gunplay and melee bonuses attributed to the player through Volt's kit are outright unmatched by any frame regardless of gender.

 

When you stop and look at raw damagers you end up seeing frames like Nova and Ember coming up at the top of the list.  But at the end of the day damage is generally considered to be the weakest strong suit a frame can have.  So the trend I've seen is that the male frames are basically the strongest in terms of defensive traits, in a general sense of course.  Ash clearly wants to be a girl when you look at how much damage he just stacks on everything.

[Voidcrash]

My favorite frames based on looks are Excalibur and Saryn, both have only one skill that isn't trash. (Radial Blind and Molt.) And in Saryn's case, that skill is just a downgraded copy of a far more superior skill: Loki's Decoy.

 

I have most of the frames in this game, and I think it's safe to say that most of them have only 1-2 skills that are useful beyond level 20. Some frames, like Frost, fall off completely in high level defense missions. CC and % based abilities rule the game, simply because they don't fall off as soon as skills like Radial Strike-a-Pose and Miasma

[Sokina]

Seems less about gender and more about needing to balance / update frames.

Let's not put gender bias where one doesn't exist. I'm sure it wasn't the intention. If nothing else, it's a coincidence. Also, being "Loloverpowered" isn't exactly a good thing, so I wouldn't say that "female" frames are getting the better end of the deal.

 

Some older frames are unbalanced to be really powerful, some are unbalanced to be really weak.

 

What we need is a Warframe 2.0, where warframes are more set apart from each other, have update abilities that match the current state of the game, and ideally, have more than 4 abilities to choose from. It's not gender bias. We have really S#&$ty female frames, too. Loki's not worse than Mirage, especially with invisibility. Invisibility is more or less identical to invincibility, with the huge melee damage modifier. Disarm's a game changer too.

 

This isn't a case of gender inequality, it's a case of things needing to be a bit more balanced, updated, and modernized. Frames need to be made more unique, and they need to stop being one trick ponies. Why can't Saryn have toxic resistance? Why can't Frost be immune to "Icy shields"? Why can't Ember have 5% more fire damage when using weapons that have fire damage? I really think fleshing out each individual frame to have more than 4 abilities (Potentially 8 total abilities, 12 is a stretch) would greatly increase the versatility and overall use of each frame to prevent issues like this, where you're forced to play a certain loadout, etc.

[OrphanMaker]

This is true the Female frames are way more Powerful!!

 

And Mirage multiple decoys that all do damage, all can more, all have visual textures!!!

Loki decoy, single, little sad sounding lato, no damage, cant move, visually sad... Loki's decoy is pathetic!!!

 

I mean Loki decoy visually... I don't care for it dealing damage. To be honest I would prefer Loki's decoy dealing no damage. I just want his decoy to look visually similar to Mirages decoy. Last, give Loki the ability to cast more than 1 decoy, and take away it ability to get damaged. Its a hologram, bullets should go right through it!

Edited July 22, 2014 by OrphanMaker

[vaugahn]

Ah, this idiot again.

[OrphanMaker]

Ah, this idiot again.

Who you talking about?

[FaintestAura]

Wow. See this is the problem introducing gender as a problem when there wasn't one in the first place. I suggest to OP to create an entirely new thread. 

 

 

This is true the Female frames are way more Powerful!!

 

And Mirage multiple decoys that all do damage, all can more, all have visual textures!!!

Loki decoy, single, little sad sounding lato, no damage, cant move, visually sad... Loki's decoy is pathetic!!!

 

WHAT THE FU** DE? FIX THAT SH**!!!

Wow you think Loki's Decoy is pathetic because it doesn't do damage? You're not using Decoy the way it was intended then. Please don't make this about Female vs Male its not relevant to this balancing problem. 

[Beas7ie]

This is why some frames should be able to "trade" skills.  Such as Loki and Mirage being able to use each other's skills.

[Marthrym]

"Tanking" makes no sense in Warframe. Rhino isn't a tank, he's a "bruiser". He's got a nice HP buffer, MASSIVE damage boost and Crowd Control abilities, and is basically better than most frames in most domains. He is not an "all-rounder" frame, he's a "superior versatile" frame.

 

Valkyr is only a "tank" when Hysteria is activated, which forces you to run after enemies to punch tear them apart, flying enemies are a pain in the neck to kill and your damage output is often considerably lowered while in this state. The invincibility is the one thing that makes her hold herself together, especially with the damage enemies can dish out a close range. And a lot of players don't even use it actively, only as an "OH SH!T" button, and rely on a "Steel fiber+Rage+Life strike+War Cry" to enjoy her.

 

As for the "gender issue" the Prologue reveals that *SPOILERS* Tenno are beings of pure energy, direct consequence of their "journey" in the Void, so they probably had a gender before, but maybe that became irrelevant to them. Or not, no idea.^^'

So the frames are catalysts. At least that's how I understand it. Maybe at first each frame was unique, a physical "cristallization" of a few Tenno's energy? And these Tenno "shared" this ability to manifest a physical expression of themselves with other Tenno, allowing them to do the same, which made frames both unique and common to every Tenno? Maybe not every Tenno could do that on their own for X or Y reason, and had to resort to that to find a physical body to occupy, by making a copy of sorts? Or maybe I'm completely wrong on that. Honestly until we get more lore, it's all up to interpretation...^^'

[Nachino]

"Tanking" makes no sense in Warframe. Rhino isn't a tank, he's a "bruiser". He's got a nice HP buffer, MASSIVE damage boost and Crowd Control abilities, and is basically better than most frames in most domains. He is not an "all-rounder" frame, he's a "superior versatile" frame.

How is his damage buff massive? Novas damage buff might be part from her ult but it´s waaay superior. No need to talk about Banshees damage buff, that´s a massive damage buff.

[Heraclius]

Looking specifically at the Rhino/Valkyr comparison--it makes sense that Valkyr's ultimate is more powerful than Rhino's second ability.  The proper question is surely to ask about the overall package of abilities that each warframe offers--and considering that Valkyr's invincibility is significantly offset by the fact that she is forced into using melee for its duration, it seems to me that they're pretty evenly matched.  (And yet you still see more Rhinos around anyway.)  Your example of Mirage being more powerful than Loki is also a little off-mark in that they do not really occupy similar roles: Loki is more of a CC specialist while Mirage brings to the table decent DPS and a somewhat clunky CC.  It is also incredibly fragile, where Loki's invisibility paired with a duration/efficiency build grants it near-invincibility.  I'm basically saying that you're cherrypicking your examples and using unfair comparisons to mark out your case.  If you actually do the apples-to-apples and oranges-to-oranges comparisons it's not as bad as you're saying.

 

That said, I don't think anyone would disagree with you in saying that Mirage, Zephyr and Valkyr are generally better warframes than Hydroid, Oberon and Nekros.  It's maybe a trend visible in the recently developed frames but if you look at the big picture it's pretty even, really.

 

And think about the most common T4 setup these days: Rhino/Frost/Nova/Nyx?

Edited July 21, 2014 by Heraclius

[KiloFoxx]

In the past few updates, we've had Zephyr. While Turbulence is a good defensive skill, it doesn't offer much to the team.

As for other frames?

Frost owns bullet Defense.

Vauban is the king of anything without a gun.

Loki turns his foes into simpering infants with sticks.

Volt speeds up his entire team and makes farming runs almost literally a breeze.

I think both genders are equally represented.

-

Also where does Vor imply the same Tenno occupies different frames? After all, there's the Valkyr conundrum, where Valkyr is Valkyr and only Valkyr. There's barely any lore in this game, so I think there's a bit of a schism we have to accept where not everything that happens in the ship is canon.

I like the idea of each frame being occupied by a unique individual anyway, since it reminds me of the Japanese sci fi/Tokusatsu shows this game is based on.

 

 

and all of those (male frames) BUT Vauban were available in the CLOSED BETA. (pre-update SEVEN) OP said lately. you may have a point, but the argument is invalad. it'd be like someone saying Granny SMith apples are awesome and you try and say they're wrong because you hate Red apples. yeah they're both apples but you're not referencing the same thing. you're operating outside the constraints of the point. (and even Vauban is old.)

 

also, Zephyr is amazing IMO. Turbulence is good for mitigating damage, Tailwind is an AMAZING mobility skill (i outrun Volts ALL the time), Divebomb, when modded right, deals more damage, cheaper, than most Ults, and Tornado THROWS ENEMIES AROUND. yeah Tornado lasts WAY too long when modded for Dvebomb use (problematic unless in a Def or INT mission) and can't be re-cast. but the sheer amount of time your enemies spend twirling in the air, on the ground, or struggling to get up rival even the BEST CC abilities.

 

[vaugahn]

and all of those (male frames) BUT Vauban were available in the CLOSED BETA. (pre-update SEVEN) OP said lately. you may have a point, but the argument is invalad. 

 

The OP has already said that he didn't mean for it to be about gender but instead why newer frames aren't as good as older frames. Gender isn't a factor in that discussion.

[NikolaiLev]

Except Rhino has far more AoE damage and CC than Valkyr does.

 

So, this argument's a little strange.

 

Warframe has always had horrible balance, but it's not related to gender issues.

[Bazookagofer]

Mirage vs Loki. Both have there merits but Loki is still bad***.

 

Radial Disarm is definitely on my list of one of the best ultimates. Making a whole room into a bunch of pansies with sticks. HELL YEAH ANY DAY!!!

His stealth is awesome. Long duration. Extra melee damage. Good.

Switch teleport could use a buff IMHO. It kind of lackluster. I don't even use it anymore.

I think making it a teleport without having to have a target would be good. Also after teleporting you would be stealthed for 2/3/4/5. If you use any ability or fire a weapon stealth will break.Movement speed reduced by 50% and you cannot sprint. Also making it the first ability and cost 25 energy would be nice.

Decoy could use a buff. It should become the third ability. Decoy should spawn 3 Loki's. One Loki uses your primary. The other your secondary and the third would use your melee weapon. Decoys would walk in an area around you attacking and attracting most but not all fire of enemies. The damage would be 25/30/35/40 % of the weapons you have equipped. They would have 50% of your HP and 50% of your shields.  Decoys last /7/8/9/10 seconds.

[Voidcrash]

 

Decoy could use a buff. It should become the third ability. Decoy should spawn 3 Loki's. One Loki uses your primary. The other your secondary and the third would use your melee weapon. Decoys would walk in an area around you attacking and attracting most but not all fire of enemies. The damage would be 25/30/35/40 % of the weapons you have equipped. They would have 50% of your HP and 50% of your shields.  Decoys last /7/8/9/10 seconds.

 

 

Yeah, nah. That's terrible. Decoy as it is functions exceptionally well, if you know where to place it.

Edited July 21, 2014 by Voidcrash

[crisisavatar]

Quit being a *@##$, still be better as a male warframe !

[K_Shiro]

Then there's the newest Warframe, Mirage, compared to Loki, the other trickster. Mirage has not one, but five decoys, that do -actual- damage and not insignificant damage either, and that follow her around to provide constant protection. She can't teleport, but, Loki's teleport was sorta obsolete anyways compared to Nova's. She can semi-stealth with Eclipse, which when she's not hiding in the shadows, boosts her damage a lot. She can also turn environmental objects into traps, negating enemies ability to use the consoles, making her also good at stealth. Then her ultimate... Laser disco ball of death that also steals Excalibur's radial blind.

Seems a tad convenient that you do not mention loki's invisibility and it's damage boost to melee turning Loki into one of the highest damage output badasses the game knows. But though this gender-bias argument is just a joke (I hope or you have issues), statistically you have true statements.

 

Oh, by the way, I dunno about you but I have both Rhino and Valkyr and I would never even once considered Valkyr a better tank (or good altogether...). Her arse is nicely done though.

 

Ah well, I'm losing interest in Warframe anyways - was trying to point out balance problems to DE for a while now but nothing seems to change so I kinda got bored of doing it. Ah well, please continue...

[Keltik0ne]

I'm sorry, but any post that states Mirage is better than Loki is obviously either badly misinformed or trolling.

 

It's also odd you neglect to mention things like Mag vs Volt (both starter frames, Volt has far better dps and utility form powers alone) Valkrie vs ..... hmm.... everyone likes claiming Rhino is a tank, so, Rhino has a better buff, a better ulti (why run around chasing mobs when you can demolish/freeze them ?).

 

Lets go further, stealth frames: you have Loki, Ash and Banshee, are you seriously suggesting Banshee is the best stealth frame ?

Edited July 21, 2014 by Keltik0ne

[Heraclius]

The OP has already said that he didn't mean for it to be about gender but instead why newer frames aren't as good as older frames. Gender isn't a factor in that discussion.

 

Well, starting a thread called "Gender bias in warframe power" and beginning that thread with a series of direct comparisons between what he perceives to be feminine warframes more powerful than their masculine counterparts seems like a pretty strange way of beginning that kind of discussion.

[Cradicias]

Well, starting a thread called "Gender bias in warframe power" and beginning that thread with a series of direct comparisons between what he perceives to be feminine warframes more powerful than their masculine counterparts seems like a pretty strange way of beginning that kind of discussion.

 

Admittedly, I didn't do the best job of naming the thread. My point was mostly that the newer female Warframes have had a lot more care taken with their power selections and concept than their male counterparts and I was comparing them to similar older frames (which tended to be male for diversity). I don't care what gender the frame is, but it is a fact that the newer male frames have had very poor power selections (except for Hydroid, somewhat, but, even he's sorta meh). They really need to spread the innovation to all frames, unite their power sets into a single theme with powers that play off eachother. I mean, holy crap, basically every power Mirage, Zephyr and Valkyr have merge together perfectly. Mirage's ultimate even makes the room brighter so she gets more damage out of Eclipse. Only power that is just sorta thrown in there is Slight of Hand, but, it's still a cool power.

Edited July 21, 2014 by Cradicias

[Noblesse_0blige]

The character you are playing has no gender, so this is impossible.  If you mean you prefer your avatar to appear male since you are male... well, consider this a quick and relatively painless introduction to sympathy for the much more prevalent problem of female FPS gamers.

I understand that you're male and playing this game, so it might not seem fair to compare it to a female who isn't you playing Call of Duty or some other game that isn't this.  But them's the breaks in this industry.

 

 

 

This. All of this. Stand up for us Fem-gamers (You are even smart enough not to use the term gamer girl, you deserve a cookie~)

 

Anyways, joking aside, the balance isn't so much far off as it is balanced in different ways. Fem-frames as a whole are generally weaker physically, having weaker health and armor pools, and while some get off with high shields, most don't. Male frames in general have higher health and armor pools at the expense of being more in the middle ground in terms of survivability and power. Fem-frames in general, save for a few exceptions are glass cannons. High risk, high reward type of frames.

 

Personally, I play the frames I like for how they look and how fun they feel, and couldn't give a damn how powerful or weak they are- we have guns for a reason, use them!

 

As for how that female frames are better than male frames lately; it's actually to be expected, seeing as it was the other way around before this happened, where most of the female frames where lack luster and all the male frames where gods. I don't miss seeing groups of all rhinos and lokis

 

*Steps down off her soap box and goes back to waiting for her new kubrow to mature soon.*

Edited July 21, 2014 by Noblesse_0blige

[Heraclius]

Yeah fair.  I didn't know Prism did that--that's really neat!