Infested Are Just Goddamn Ridiculous Now

[Naftal]

I think you forgot the part where:

 

Volatile Runners now explode when shot to death and stagger you out of practically anything short of Absorb/Iron Skin, and they pretty much instantly explode unlike previously where they would have a nose holding animation.

 

Ancients still Slap and Pull you out of everything by causing an animation.

 

Infested in general now deal more damage to the pod, the difference of which is so high it can be described by multiplying the old value by a scalar multiple times.

 

Trinity no longer heals the Pod.

 

Ancient Healers make everything within a range a more effective bullet sponge sooner.

 

Clearly the only thing that has changed about Infested is that they are resilient to powers. Clearly.

None of this prevents me from using any weapons I could use before though. It's only the aoe weapons that suck in certain situations.

Edited July 22, 2014 by Naftal

[notionphil]

To all the people telling me to "adapt" or don't use explosives and what not.

 

Ok. Let me take out my three star Boltor Prime. And my five star Marelok with Seeker. And tear through entire crowds of infested.

 

It's not the fact is damn hard, it's the fact it's as well bloody unfair, especially to people who don't have said explosives, a forma'ed up Soma/Boltor Prime or Marelok or whatever. It's also no bloody fun. I go to infested to take it easy, for a casual mission where I can use anything I want because I don't have to worry about G3 or Harvester spawning and me losing a chance at a potential Detron/Brakk part (yes I don't have either), and the only assassin is Stalker, who is manageable even if I am messing around with melee. Now these buffs are simply discouraging me from using other stuff and to select my top tier weaponry. What's the easiest was to "adapt" to the new buffs? Easy! Use all my high-tier DPS whoring builds. New Ancients, even Lv70+, wouldn't be able to stand up against my Boltor if I place on the Bane of Infested and use Roar for a disgusting 190% damage output. I want to play my unpotatoed Valkyr, or my personal favorite that I recently acquired, Hydroid, but all these cheap aura buff/debuffs are doing are encouraging me to go down whatever hurls out the most damage most efficiently.

 

If this is the way the game is going, I don't want to hear any more excuses from the people complaining "oh Boltor Prime is overpowered, Soma is Overpowered, Penta/Ogris OP nerf pls", because frankly the game is encouraging me to go top-tier even in the faction that used to be for casual fun.

 

The thing you're missing is that DE is clearly making Infested an endgame faction.

 

You have to go out of your way to fight them. They don't even normally occur on the star map, outside of one planet, and Dark Sectors which DE already labeled endgame; and give significant loot bonuses. The Infested are now the challenge that residing on the Dark Sectors, and only occupying a corner of a single planet would suggest.

 

The "poor soul" without a Soma and a Rhino really isn't going to be facing infested except in rare cases. It's OK for DE to put some hard things in the game, that you can choose to experience for some specific rewards.

 

Are you upset that the G3 or Stalker are a challenge? You don't sound upset about those. View infested as the Faction version of the G3. Except you can choose when to fight them and when not to.

 

The overwhelming portion of the universe is still ready for you to "take it easy" in. If you are really concerned about not being able to "take it easy", are you forgetting about Mercury? It doesn't get much easier than that. Why does Mercury not satisfy your needs?

Edited July 22, 2014 by notionphil

[Cpl_Facehugger]

This is what's known as an unfounded complaint. With even a minimum of teamwork infested are beyond easy to kill, though I suppose if you're blasting at a mob with a drakgoon on max spread then yeah, you might have some trouble.

 

"Teamwork."

Yeah, and if someone plays solo?

 

You have to go out of your way to fight them.

 

Did they decide to can outbreaks then?

Edited July 22, 2014 by Cpl_Facehugger

[Naftal]

Yeah, and if someone plays solo?

L2P

[notionphil]

Did they decide to can outbreaks then?

 

What % of nodes in the game have infested outbreak at any time. 1 or 2%?

 

And IIRC infested can't invade low level planets.

 

And ancients don't even spawn before wave 5 or 5 mins, and not on low level missions. Basically people are playing hardmode content and complaining that its hardmode. Yes, it needs tweaks bc parts are unfair (and will probably get fixed if we post enough). No, it's not supposed to be easy.

 

This is an endgame faction, meant for high level players. These arguments that poor newbie johnny is going to be forced to fight infested all day are spurious. It's not like there's a ton of starter equipment locked behind high level infested survivals.

[Arabaxus]

I think you're missing the point. It's good that the infested are a challenge. But these issues I am trying to bring to light are the fact you're not making infested any more difficult, you're simply making them more spongy.

 

New infested to me, to be perfectly honest, are nothing more than an annoyance. G3 is nothing more than a means to farm Brakk parts. Stalker is dispatched in under 10 seconds even playing solo. I'm not trying to speak for me, I'm trying to speak for the me who played warframe before I was at this stage. Early in your warframe career is the most painful, difficult part, especially when everything is a damage sponge to you and farming for components was indeed difficult. The only reason I didn't quit was that when I got tired of fighting Grineer and Corpus that would easily fry me was that I was lucky enough to be graced by a Dread when I was MR 0 and that I could always go to the Infested to kick back and level up my gear. That and a certain friend kept blabbing on about Warframe all day in chat. The fact the issue remains is that with pretty much all the other factions, the problem for DE's "endgame" is that everything is simply a giant bullet sponge thanks to armor being completely broken after Damage 2.0 is now starting to become a thing for infested as well.

 

You want a good example of this? Look at the new Lephantis post "fix". What did they do to make it challenging? Change it to level 60 instead of 40. I did that mission solo yesterday.

 

Did it take me longer to kill Lephantis? Certainly.

Was it any harder? No.

 

The effect of this? It makes it harder on the newer players to complete these missions, while the veterans are bothered to hold M1 down longer.

 

There's a difference in making something endgame by increasing the actual difficulty and by artificially increasing the difficulty through making things bigger damage sponges or forcing upon you debuff after debuff or other unavoidable shenanigans. The fact stands that currently, Infested are even more annoying to deal with than Corpus/Grineer, and the EXP is roughly the same now. Meanwhile, Corpus have Oxium, Gleaming Talon, that thing that drops from Sniper Crewman, Grineer have Crimson Dervish, Malicious Raptor, and more good loot. Infested have practically nothing of value.

 

It's a pain in the arse, there's no incentive, and it makes the harsh early game even harsher on new players. If everyone who played this game were as situated and comfortable as me and you, this wouldn't be a problem. But the fact is not everyone is.

 

I neglected to mention this one last part: It's not even fun anymore.

Edited July 22, 2014 by Arabaxus

[Cpl_Facehugger]

L2P

 

I've got a clanmate who can't play online at all because of strictNAT.

 

What % of nodes in the game have infested outbreak at any time. 1 or 2%?

 

And IIRC infested can't invade low level planets.

 

And ancients don't even spawn before wave 5 or 5 mins, and not on low level missions. Basically people are playing hardmode content and complaining that its hardmode. Yes, it needs tweaks bc parts are unfair (and will probably get fixed if we post enough). No, it's not supposed to be easy.

 

This is an endgame faction, meant for high level players. These arguments that poor newbie johnny is going to be forced to fight infested all day are spurious. It's not like there's a ton of starter equipment locked behind high level infested survivals.

 

Infested can't infest Earth, Mercury, or Venus. That leaves plenty of low level places like Saturn, Jupiter, and Mars.

It also really sucks for anyone who wants to play Nyx.

Honestly, I find it really hard to take this notion that infested are the endgame faction seriously because they can show up via outbreak in low level systems.

 

Plus the Venus dark sectors. A newbie won't know enough to avoid them, especially since the current starmap isn't too clear on progression compared to the old one.

[notionphil]

There's a difference in making something endgame by increasing the actual difficulty and by artificially increasing the difficulty through making things bigger damage sponges or forcing upon you debuff after debuff or other unavoidable shenanigans.

 

I neglected to mention this one last part: It's not even fun anymore.

 

The thing is, not everyone agrees with you. I find fighting the infested much more fun.

 

I hated old infested, I literally could not have designed a more boring faction if i tried. I don't want a mindless grindfest, and if I do, there's always low level planets which give nearly the sam

 

I think it's clear that DE was attempting to increase the actual difficulty. Leapers dodge rockets, Runners penalize you for letting them get too close w gunplay, Ancients resist AoEs and powers, and are now priority targets.

 

Things still need fixes, like the Pull and spawn rate. Mutalists were already just nerfed, an hour ago. Make actual, specific suggestions. Like I have posted Infested Analysis U14 .

.

"Infested are goddam ridiculous" or "they are annoying to fight" is not an actionable suggestion. This is the direction DE is going in with infested, so help them make it better.

[notionphil]

I've got a clanmate who can't play online at all because of strictNAT.

 

 

Infested can't infest Earth, Mercury, or Venus. That leaves plenty of low level places like Saturn, Jupiter, and Mars.

It also really sucks for anyone who wants to play Nyx.

Honestly, I find it really hard to take this notion that infested are the endgame faction seriously because they can show up via outbreak in low level systems.

 

Plus the Venus dark sectors. A newbie won't know enough to avoid them, especially since the current starmap isn't too clear on progression compared to the old one.

 

Agreed that the starmap makes progression horribly unclear. However, that's a UI issue - the dark sectors were clearly called Endgame by DE.

 

Also, you know that mid level infested missions are nearly free of Ancients and Mutalists, right?

 

It's almost exclusively runners, chargers and leapers. Do you honestly feel that's a problem?

[Naftal]

I've got a clanmate who can't play online at all because of strictNAT.

That is completely separate issue and shouldn't be used as an argument regarding solo difficulty.

Edited July 22, 2014 by Naftal

[notionphil]

That is completely separate issue and shouldn't be used as an argument regarding solo difficulty.

 

Also, infested spawn rates, especially on solo difficulty need to be adjusted.

[APBladeX]

The fact that ancients are basically "leader" types, and have a Scorpion grappling hook.... is.... well, stupid.

[Naftal]

The fact that ancients are basically "leader" types, and have a Scorpion grappling hook.... is.... well, stupid.

Nah, it's good that they have constant priority targets that let the trash mobs actually do something.

[sneakatone]

yea I solo part 3 of marriage quest with a lanka and saryn and it was ridiculous. All these energy drain and infested buffs.

[letir]

Worst thing is resistance from healers, second is Osprey's procs and third is free hook for every Ancinet (debatable).

[Llyssa]

They quartered the damage output from Ospreys, that should fix most of the problem.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

That is completely separate issue and shouldn't be used as an argument regarding solo difficulty.

 

"Hey guys, let's ignore all those players who can't effectively play in teams because connection issues and make infested punishingly difficult for solo players instead of fixing the connection issues first then balancing around the working-as-intended game."

 

"Genius!"

 

"And you know what else? Let's screw over people who choose to play solo as a matter of personal preference too!"

 

"Double genius!"

 

Seriously man, "just rely on teamwork" is a crappy argument in a game that allows solo play. It's a crappy argument in a game where there's no real effective means of communication beyond text chat and voip that nobody actually uses. It's a crappy argument in a game where you have no way of knowing if the pub you're joining is a well oiled team of awesomenauts who know what they're doing, or a gaggle of nublets who slot in fast hands and ammo drum on their latron.

 

Agreed that the starmap makes progression horribly unclear. However, that's a UI issue - the dark sectors were clearly called Endgame by DE.

 

And yet there's low level dark sectors, and DE's definition of "endgame" has never included difficulty as the driving concept. I mean, Steve even said as much when he was outlining the three endgame systems to the council way back when. Endgame was framed as things for players to do beyond just grinding the starmap.

 

Also, you know that mid level infested missions are nearly free of Ancients and Mutalists, right?

 

They kinda aren't. Defense is free of Mutalists now, but ancients are very common after five minutes in survival (bear in mind that keys drop at 15 minutes), and they tend to show up in exterminates too.

 

It's almost exclusively runners, chargers and leapers. Do you honestly feel that's a problem?

 

I feel that ancients - particularly toxic and healer ancients - are the problem. Healers because they reintroduce the nonsense damage mitigation that Damage 2.0 was meant to get away from, particularly when they show up in pairs because they'll share the aura between one another. Toxics because damage through shields is a crappy concept to begin with and that's only made even crappier by their ability to pull you in and give every nearby charger toxic damage.

Granted I run Rhino so I'm barely inconvenienced here, but lots of players don't and making one frame a must have for a given faction is bad and not something I want to encourage.

 

That and ospreys, which were just nerfed. They might be something other than ridiuclous crap now, I haven't had a chance to evaluate.

[letir]

They quartered the damage output from Ospreys, that should fix most of the problem.

They should change damage from damned Toxin to not-so-deadly Viral, that will fix problem.

[Thelonious]

Agreed that the starmap makes progression horribly unclear. However, that's a UI issue - the dark sectors were clearly called Endgame by DE.

 

Except DE's definition of "endgame" doesn't mean "high level" (something we already talked about). If it was, there would only be Dark sectors on high level planets. They sure are a bit more difficult than normal nodes on the planet, but they're not reserved for "endgame players"

 

Also, you know that mid level infested missions are nearly free of Ancients and Mutalists, right?

It's almost exclusively runners, chargers and leapers. Do you honestly feel that's a problem?

 

As someone who often runs invasions (fast and easy clan mats), I can tell you that's wrong. As long as the level range allows a type of Ancients, they can spawn as much as RNG decides. 

I don't know what you call "mid-level", but if it means 15+, then any ancient can spawn. Even at 10+ actually.

And Invasions do spawn on any planet but Mercury (venus and earth can be invaded too, with yes, ancients too).

 

There's a list of enemies that can spawn on any planet on the wiki, including Infested during Invasions. Cudos to the guys that took the time to write everything down.

 

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Planets

[Phatose]

Given that both outbreaks and dark sectors have considerable bonuses - battle pay for outbreak and considerable bonus affinity and credits for dark sectors - having either be tougher then a regular mission should really be expected, don't you think? 

 

I'm glad to see it going this way.  Dark Sectors giving better affinity and drops, while also being limited to what was the weakest faction in the game by a considerable amount was a bad design decision.  Making the infested more dangerous is something that game has desperately needed for a long time.

[Azawarau]

"Hey guys, let's ignore all those players who can't effectively play in teams because connection issues and make infested punishingly difficult for solo players instead of fixing the connection issues first then balancing around the working-as-intended game."

 

"Genius!"

 

"And you know what else? Let's screw over people who choose to play solo as a matter of personal preference too!"

 

"Double genius!".

If you balance a game for people with bad connections youre going to go into some deep water when people with good connections come out on top even more so than before

[(PSN)kiddplay13]

Trinity + Link+ Rage+ Quick Thinking= Infested are a joke again

[Cpl_Facehugger]

If you balance a game for people with bad connections youre going to go into some deep water when people with good connections come out on top even more so than before

 

How? We're not talking about tying fire rate to ping or anything, we're talking about not screwing over solo players.

[jawnt]

Trinity + Link+ Rage+ Quick Thinking= Infested are a joke again

 

What? Anyone standing on a lamp post can solo to wave 30 sechura again.

[notionphil]

Except DE's definition of "endgame" doesn't mean "high level" (something we already talked about). If it was, there would only be Dark sectors on high level planets. They sure are a bit more difficult than normal nodes on the planet, but they're not reserved for "endgame players"

 

 

As someone who often runs invasions (fast and easy clan mats), I can tell you that's wrong. As long as the level range allows a type of Ancients, they can spawn as much as RNG decides. 

I don't know what you call "mid-level", but if it means 15+, then any ancient can spawn. Even at 10+ actually.

And Invasions do spawn on any planet but Mercury (venus and earth can be invaded too, with yes, ancients too).

 

There's a list of enemies that can spawn on any planet on the wiki, including Infested during Invasions. Cudos to the guys that took the time to write everything down.

 

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Planets

 

Endgame doesn't tie to frame level (bc that's not how WF works), but it does tie to player/mastery level. Steve described it as "systemic replay at level cap".

 

You may want to play endgame with your lv 1 Mirage and Silva/Aegis, even though you are rank 15. Kudos to DE for realizing that. You may, and you'll be better far suited to do so than a MR 1 with a rank 1 volt/mk1/lato.

 

I'm glad new players can enter these nodes - however, when they do enter those optional nodes, which confer addl bonuses (for endgame players), they should expect an endgame level challenge. I really can't see how we would expect otherwise.

 

RE: Spawns (again)

 

Elite/Ancient spawn rates are not totally random, even when all mobs can spawn. From experience, you know that you see more heavies/ancients as time goes on (ex wave 30) than we do at wave 5. And that we don't get surrounded by Bombards in a level 20 non-endless mission, but we do in a lv 40.

 

Note, that as previously agreed - spawn rates by level/solo/etc need a serious looking at. Even though we're not "swamped" in a level 20 mission, players should be getting limited to 1 ancient spawned at a time etc.