Do Heavy Weapons Deserve A Buff?

[Goodking]

I've been using heavy weapons since I first started Warframe in Update 6, and they felt much less balanced after Melee 2.0. 

There's no way a huge skull splitter like the Gram should have the same slash damage as a Kama. I'm pretty sure many other players also felt how inadequate some heavy weapons are without a catalyst, loads of forma and maxed mods.

 

I think that heavy weapons like the Gram, Scindo and Galatine should not be on such equal terms with their longsword and machete counterparts, and should be improved, probably by increasing some stats.

[Deidaku]

They don't deserve a buff....they desperately need  one , fast

[nintega]

Yeah, they should probably deal a bit more damage. Both of the stance mods compensate a little bit, but on their own they're just too weak. Cleaving Whirlwind having high damage multipliers, and Rending Crane having a good chance to headshot.

 

Though honestly, as long as I've got Cleaving Whirlwind on my Gram, I've got nothing to complain about. Gram is life

[Redhux]

I agree!

 

Since they have a real big issue on moving (You can't copter with 2 handed weapons, or not horizontally that is...) because of their shape, they should at least have the power accordingly.

 

Between the Serro is marvelous ^^ You should try it

[sambarpowder]

They require significantly greater investment than other weapons and are weaker as a whole because of this. It's not a matter of whether a buff is needed, it's a matter of priority. The thing is, all the heavy weapons in the game have had their heyday already, and are basically stashed away in the attic. DE pays more attention to the newest releases because they are the most used at the time.

[Alad_VI]

It's a buff the heavy weapons need, but not the buff they deserve.

 

If you didn't read that in a Batman voice you're doing it wrong.

[Casardis]

Back in April I made a topic asking the same thing, explaining how taking out the charge attack in melee 2.0, as well as other factors, hit heavy weapons pretty hard. The balance in power switched from heavy weapons to the fast and high damage weapons (Dual Cleaver/Zoren/Ichor, Nikana, etc), so the problem still persists, just in reverse.

 

Just like in melee 1.0 with light weapons, heavy weapons of melee 2.0 are still useable (Gram is still my favorite weapon), but they are much less viable than most light weapons. This is even more apparent when you either don't have a stance or you're using quick melee often; light weapons simply have way too much advantage (damage, mobility, quick melee...) compared to heavy weapons that, in a logical sense, one would pick those light and powerful weapons instead of the heavy weapons that should hit harder by default, but don't.

 

It doesn't help that the heavy weapon combos are way too slow for the most part, requiring way too long build ups (3 hits before the interesting string of combo), while weapons like Venka and Aegis has a build up of 1 hit into a Hold, which, for both weapons, are one of the best combo in their arsenal. I have to say that the way the combo input are made should be reversed in a way: heavy weapons should have faster input build up while faster weapons should have longer input ones, but if I had to make an utopian decision, it would be that both types of weapons have fast input build up.

 

That's something Steve promised and shared his agreement with, but failed to execute it with heavy weapons so far, even with the new combos in Cleaving Whirlwind and Rending Crane. So you pretty much have to equip a Gram in melee-mode with Cleaving Whirlwind if you want to bring it to the same level as a regular Nikana using Quick Melee attacks, or almost. There's something wrong in just that, and it's not with Nikana (okay maybe a bit), but with how heavy weapons have been balanced.

 

Something needs to be done fast, but it's been almost FOUR MONTHS since Melee 2.0 was introduced, and not a single big change/tweak/revision have been done to the system ever since. Where are proper jump attacks that's been asked since early Open Beta? Where are proper distance-closing attacks that don't involve passing through enemies or sliding over them, or taking 3 hours to perform because the move is at the end of the combo? Why is channeling not expanded on and only rely on barely-useful channel mods for different effects, instead of making weapons unique by having proper channeling powers themselves?

 

Instead it was just left out like that, thinking that it was solid. It's a solid base to work on, yes, but it's still just a foundation. You can't build a house over a foundation of sand. Thirty pages of feedback in the Megathread and DE has yet to do anything significant about it. What is the point of it?

Edited August 8, 2014 by Casardis

[PeanutMonster]

IMO heavy weapons need a buff to their crit chance, so using Berserker they can be made faster.

[RealPandemonium]

They should have their base channeling multiplier increased to 75% to match their previous niche of being charge-oriented weapons.

[Goodking]

IMO heavy weapons need a buff to their crit chance, so using Berserker they can be made faster.

That actually makes a lot of sense. I'd support that.

[unknow99]

That reminds me that my Fragor has taken some dust,since it no longer make people fly/go ragdoll much, and seems too slow(even with fury)...

[Casardis]

IMO heavy weapons need a buff to their crit chance, so using Berserker they can be made faster.

 

So far only the Fragor has decent crit and works decent with Berserker, but I don't think this should be the only element. More things could be done other than slapping crits, which is one of the most overused meta so far. I won't be against that, but I don't want this to be the only alternative. The problem goes much further than that.

Edited August 8, 2014 by Casardis

[UndeadGhostWarrior]

galatine buff please

[Goodking]

Back in April I made a topic asking the same thing, explaining how taking out the charge attack in melee 2.0, as well as other factors, hit heavy weapons pretty hard. The balance in power switched from heavy weapons to the fast and high damage weapons (Dual Cleaver/Zoren/Ichor, Nikana, etc), so the problem still persists, just in reverse.

 

Just like in melee 1.0 with light weapons, heavy weapons of melee 2.0 are still useable (Gram is still my favorite weapon), but they are much less viable than most light weapons. This is even more apparent when you either don't have a stance or you're using quick melee often; light weapons simply have way too much advantage (damage, mobility, quick melee...) compared to heavy weapons that, in a logical sense, one would pick those light and powerful weapons instead of the heavy weapons that should hit harder by default, but don't.

 

It doesn't help that the heavy weapon combos are way too slow for the most part, requiring way too long build ups (3 hits before the interesting string of combo), while weapons like Venka and Aegis has a build up of 1 hit into a Hold, which, for both weapons, are one of the best combo in their arsenal. I have to say that the way the combo input are made should be reversed in a way: heavy weapons should have faster input build up while faster weapons should have longer input ones, but if I had to make an utopian decision, it would be that both types of weapons have fast input build up.

 

That's something Steve promised and shared his agreement with, but failed to execute it with heavy weapons so far, even with the new combos in Cleaving Whirlwind and Rending Crane. So you pretty much have to equip a Gram in melee-mode with Cleaving Whirlwind if you want to bring it to the same level as a regular Nikana using Quick Melee attacks, or almost. There's something wrong in just that, and it's not with Nikana (okay maybe a bit), but with how heavy weapons have been balanced.

 

Something needs to be done fast, but it's been almost FOUR MONTHS since Melee 2.0 was introduced, and not a single big change/tweak/revision have been done to the system ever since. Where are proper jump attacks that's been asked since early Open Beta? Where are proper distance-closing attacks that don't involve passing through enemies or sliding over them, or taking 3 hours to perform because the move is at the end of the combo? Why is channeling not expanded on and only rely on barely-useful channel mods for different effects, instead of making weapons unique by having proper channeling powers themselves?

 

Instead it was just left out like that, thinking that it was solid. It's a solid base to work on, yes, but it's still just a foundation. You can't build a house over a foundation of sand. Thirty pages of feedback in the Megathread and DE has yet to do anything significant about it. What is the point of it?

True. Totally true. I feel almost the same way. Many weapons shouldn't only get a long-awaited stat tweak, but also a bit of a combo shift as well. Some weapons should also get innate channeling abilities, even just to diversify them a bit.

Not to mention these channeling mods being almost useless. I'm pretty sure almost no one bothers with them (except life strike). Lol, we only have 8 mod spaces per weapon.  

I don't even mind my heavy weapon's quick melee taking a while to execute.. I mind when it takes a while to hit, and hits mob enemies for barely a quarter of their health.

 

I have no problem with the lighter weapons being able to take down targets with ease. It just shouldn't be something that takes more effort if you have a heavy weapon.

 

...slapping crits would be nice though. xD

[FrackingBiscuit]

They should have their base channeling multiplier increased to 75% to match their previous niche of being charge-oriented weapons.

 

IMO heavy weapons need a buff to their crit chance, so using Berserker they can be made faster.

 

I agree with both of these.  Channeling modifier/channeling power could even be their own stats for melee weapons across the board, with heavy weapons generally being better at channeling than lighter weapons.

 

What do people think about channeling mods reducing channeling efficiency?  I haven't used them all that much so I don't know what to make of them.  When I look at them I feel like they add too much energy cost for what they do, and in order to compensate for them I have to add more efficiency mods.  It's like I either mod my melee weapons like I used to normally or I mod them exclusively for channeling effects and miss out on killing power.

Edited August 8, 2014 by FrackingBiscuit

[PeanutMonster]

So far only the Fragor has decent crit and works decent with Berserker, but I don't think this should be the only element. More things could be done other than slapping crits, which is one of the most overused meta so far. I won't be against that, but I don't want this to be the only alternative. The problem goes much further than that.

 

DE could also slap those useless status chances on every weapon, if you aren't happy with crit chance increase.

[RealPandemonium]

Not to mention these channeling mods being almost useless. I'm pretty sure almost no one bothers with them (except life strike). Lol, we only have 8 mod spaces per weapon.  

Killing Blow gives you a ton of extra channeling damage with no downside.  Certainly not useless if you have the proper energy economy for channeling constantly.

[WhisperByte]

Killing Blow gives you a ton of extra channeling damage with no downside.  Certainly not useless if you have the proper energy economy for channeling constantly.

He probably meant S#&$ like Quickening and Warrior's Grip. Those negative channeling efficiency mods.

Edited August 8, 2014 by WhisperByte

[Grulos]

Melee 2.0 pretty much nerfed all charge weapons through the ground to Lato level.

[Monolake]

Simply put fast>>>> slow  in melee 2.0   because of hit counter build up

not that heavy weapons are bad now, but they are much worse than the fast ones

 

Considering charged attack, why not just add it back in the same way: hold a key to charge then perform a swing - animations are still there - and give it much higher channelling multiplier, like +300% base for heavy weapons  to be worth the time waiting for charge. 

 

Channelling mods need a rebalance period. Half of them are useless. 

 

But I bet all this is not even on DEL 'to do' list because its not gamebreaking and people are more bothered with doggies and peeveeepeee now (for some reason it gets frequent balance iterations, while weapons are being looked at once in half-year)

[Monolake]

That reminds me that my Fragor has taken some dust,since it no longer make people fly/go ragdoll much, and seems too slow(even with fury)...

It should ragdoll on jump attack. 

[Renegade343]

What I have for a very, very quick fix for heavy weapons (for now): 

 

All heavy weapons will have the multiplier counter increase by 2 * (2)^n, where n = number of times the multiplier has gone up. 

 

That means it takes 2 hits from the heavy weapon to gain 1.5x damage, then 4 hits (total 6 hits) to gain 2.0x, then 8 hits (14 hits) to gain 2.5x, and so on. 

[unknow99]

Simply put fast>>>> slow  in melee 2.0   because of hit counter build up

not that heavy weapons are bad now, but they are much worse than the fast ones

 

Considering charged attack, why not just add it back in the same way: hold a key to charge then perform a swing - animations are still there - and give it much higher channelling multiplier, like +300% base for heavy weapons  to be worth the time waiting for charge. 

 

Channelling mods need a rebalance period. Half of them are useless. 

 

But I bet all this is not even on DEL 'to do' list because its not gamebreaking and people are more bothered with doggies and peeveeepeee now (for some reason it gets frequent balance iterations, while weapons are being looked at once in half-year)

If they ever put charge attacks back, it should only be enabled when your stance mod is fully maxed or something else, to prevent people from using it everytime anywhere...

Edited August 9, 2014 by unknow99

[Monolake]

If they ever put charge attacks back, it should only be enabled when your stance mod is fully maxed or something else, to prevent people from using it everytime anywhere...

Could add it as another 'combo' to heavy weapons stances.  Except its not good to lock it behind RNG of getting stances. 

[Azamagon]

What do people think about channeling mods reducing channeling efficiency?  I haven't used them all that much so I don't know what to make of them.  When I look at them I feel like they add too much energy cost for what they do, and in order to compensate for them I have to add more efficiency mods.  It's like I either mod my melee weapons like I used to normally or I mod them exclusively for channeling effects and miss out on killing power.

 

Channeling mods reducing channeling efficiency = Seriously dumb decision. They already cost a modslot, no need to have more penalties (especially  considering they are not corrupted mods either, bar Corrupt Charge).

 

If basic attacks cost no stamina + channeling attacks cost stamina instead of energy, then penalties would STILL be dumb on them. Life Strike would be acceptable maybe, but it would be better if it just had a lower benefit (1% heal per rank) with no penalties instead.

 

As you say, modding to use them just makes you lose out on far too much killing power. Considering you also have to EQUIP your melee weapons to get any use of channeling mods makes it even more stupid (as raw power still makes the weapon useful in quick melee).

 

In short: Melee 2.0 has faaaaaaaaaar too many issues to be solved. Bleh!