Ammo Nerf Protest

[TX10000]

If you're using 3,000 Penta grenades to get to 30 minutes, you're a one trick pony. Use your secondary weapon. Save your heavy hitting weapons for later on when the enemies get tough and don't waste them on the small fries which are just as easily killed by a secondary or melee weapon.

Hardly viable (the secondary idea). As i said previously, eventualy (as you move higher in the waves) there will come a time when you won't kill enough mobs no matter how - to replenish -, until you get overrun. The secondary does play a secondary role really and melee is out of the way because of toxics.

Edited August 14, 2014 by TX10000

[TX10000]

Somebody lock this please. Its a pointless conversation - People whining and clogging up this forum need to stop complaining, grow up, and pick one of the other ~200 weapons in the game. Or just leave, which would be a better alternative.

Of these 2, to leave is unfortunately, the better one.

Edited August 14, 2014 by TX10000

[S3EK3R]

Maybe you speak about playing as valkyr constantly using her ulti. That is not an alternative. After all, her ability would also get nerfed, cause of dynamicity (the same argument as frost nerf, vauban nerf, nova nerf, ...).

Valkyr is fine as she is. In lower level she is overkill, but in high level mission her powers are necessary for survival.

I'm quite interested in your solution to Valkyr's "OP"ness. People complained when she was weak and now they complain when she is strong.

[Mama_Sasha]

Hardly viable (the secondary idea). As i said previously, eventualy (as you move higher in the waves) there will come a time when you won't kill enough mobs no matter how - to replenish -, until you get overrun. The secondary does play a secondary role really and melee is out of the way because of toxics.

Melee is still useable regardless of toxic or such. I never had any problems with them, though the experiecne is different from player to player.

This is why combos and such exist for melee 2.0. Using them in a creative way is not only fun but also usefull.

[Letter13]

Hardly viable (the secondary idea). As i said previously, eventualy (as you move higher in the waves) there will come a time when you won't kill enough mobs no matter how - to replenish -, until you get overrun. The secondary does play a secondary role really and melee is out of the way because of toxics.

PERFECTLY viable. If your penta/ogris/launcher is modded correctly it'll still kill enemies with ease up to wave 45 or the one-hour mark in survival. If you're running low on ammo, lob one into a group of small fries to get a lot of potential drops in a short span of time, or switch to your secondary (or primary if your launcher is angstrum) and kill with that for a while.

 

Even so, how often do you go to wave 30 or the 1-hour survival with random players anyway? Every random group I match up with leaves at or before 15 or the 30 minute mark. If you're playing with buddies then you're going to be coordinating which means it's even easier to coordinate ammo pod drops, having a Nekros, etc.

[RSITH]

You tell me. I am playing Warframe to have fun, you know, that emotion that you get from enjoying a challange or a game? I wonder if some people lack the emotion of fun lol.

I agree. Isn't that why we are all here to have fun. So I suggest all of you just please let DE do what they have to do to make this game better!

[Renegade343]

You know, I had a thought: 

 

What if this thread happens to be on the next Community Hot Topics?

Edited August 14, 2014 by Renegade343

[S3EK3R]

Hardly viable (the secondary idea). As i said previously, eventualy (as you move higher in the waves) there will come a time when you won't kill enough mobs no matter how - to replenish -, until you get overrun. The secondary does play a secondary role really and melee is out of the way because of toxics.

Then you use your abilities. You know, they exist.

 

With 20 max ammo? Maybe it's only 75. The point is unchanged.

I once had a useful farming weapon, and instead of spending i was earning, now i have to spend, not even talking about how much i am capable to reap.

I can reach 30 min in T4S with my Dragon Nikana alone.

[Jsrazz]

I think they need to rethink the Angstrom definitely, it goes through ammo a lot faster than the other launchers, and even with a potato and one forma my damage with it was falling off after wave ten on Sechura, so its not like it was super overpowered to begin with.

[Wrathinside]

You're not allowed to insult anyone, so no.

 

What I'm suggesting is that when you run out of charmin ultra-soft toilet paper that feels like wiping your buttocks with silk made from clouds is that you reach two feet over to grab the spare bargain brand toilet paper. Sure it might not feel quite as nice but it gets the job done until you go out to get more charmin.

 

Plenty of secondary weapons are able to dish out enough damage to wipe the floor with enemies, and since secondaries draw from a different ammo pool than primaries, well, you can do the math.

 

If I'm doing Survival or Defense I want a Nekros on the team (whether it's me or someone else, doesn't matter).

 

Yes. One trick ponies. That's what I see when people complain about how they "can't" survive now because they have to be just a wee bit smarter with their ammo usage. The same one trick ponies that climb up to a high spot and just lob penta grenades down in a carefree manner because they pick up 20 ammo per ammo pickup and have a reserve of 540 ammo. Leaving launcher ammo pools so large for such a long time has caused players to develop an ugly habit. They have 1 trick: shoot a grenade/rocket and that's it. It's boring, and by reducing ammo pools DE has expressed that they'd like players to be a bit more involved in the game than just sitting on their rear ends in a single spot and clicking the mouse every second or so. This is Warframe, not clicking-simulator 2014.

 

Melee 2.0 was to make melee-only viable. They didn't tell you "You can only use melee weapons only until the end of time and can't switch weapons at all", so no, it's not a one trick pony.

 

It takes me 1 minute to build 10 ammo pods. They're cheap as dirt to build, easy as hell to deploy, and your teammates who are also using launchers (or high ROF weapons) will thank you.

 

 

There is literally no reason to be upset over the alternatives I've suggested. They are solutions to the problem, but whether you want to acknowledge them as such is your prerogative. 

The thing with changing weapons is that a person plays a role with launcher. Other people can take Amprex/Angstrum or levelable weapons. If the AoE person is out - group loses it's main source of damage. I understand that DE wants to make game more difficult than that, but AoE weapons are used for AoE, it's not exactly compensated by firing your boltor prime or brakk. Either more people have to pick up AoE weapons, which is inconvenient - therefore troublesome, or too much pressure is placed on the person with AoE weapon.

Well, good for you that you want Nekros. Many good players want Nekros. Like I said - announce it, maybe somebody has missed it. Last time I checked, Nekros was just a warframe, not a prerequisite, not official. If this update makes it official - different story. Maybe also pack a Vauban and Speed Nova here, so that EVERY group was brilliant? Oh and don't forget Nyx and Loki, I also want them in almost every game.

I I recall, it explicitly said that you can take melee only(I believe being able to remove other weapons was shipped the same day), equip melee as your... stance weapon... and wreak havoc. There is really no point in Melee 2.0, in stances and stuff, if you are not entering stance mode.

And here you've also said it. I've tried to keep elitism out of the subject, I warned that I can take the update to the chin, I can deal with it, but I wouldn't be talking for the community(unless you mean my schizophrenic accusations against the update).

You, on the other hand, have expressed that every single user of AoE weapon should have spare 250k for 10x pod blueprint, AND have 9k+resources per ever mission that he needs at least 10 pods in.

If I could agree with more or less splitting the AoE job between the party, forcing people to buy pods to cope with it - that's too much.

Again, what is wrong with 50-60 ammo? This at least gives room for use, room for ammo storage. Would the sun blow up if you use 50 ammo as 20 ammo? Or would it blow up if 50 ammo allows you to be a bit more flexible, than with 20 ammo?

DE has changed 100% to 1%. Surely there would be outrage. If your favourite bar of chocolate costed 1$ and now costs 3$ - you'd be pretty effed up about it, even if store has valid reasons. That is why they could implement it gradually, first 100, listen to community, maybe reduce to 50, again give it some time. Maybe people would at least understand the difference.

But no, 540 turned 20, people have to suck that tough ****. Way to work with community.

[Letter13]

I can reach 30 min in T4S with my Dragon Nikana alone.

To be completely fair that's actually impressive and not *that* easy to do.

 

 

DE has changed 100% to 1%. Surely there would be outrage. If your favourite bar of chocolate costed 1$ and now costs 3$ - you'd be pretty effed up about it, even if store has valid reasons. That is why they could implement it gradually, first 100, listen to community, maybe reduce to 50, again give it some time. Maybe people would at least understand the difference.

If my favorite chocolate bar went from $1 to $3 then I'd buy/eat it less in order to savor it and use it as a treat, while getting a different chocolate bar in the meanwhile. The same way I would switch to a different weapon if the ammo for my currently equipped weapon began to run low.

[S3EK3R]

The thing with changing weapons is that a person plays a role with launcher. Other people can take Amprex/Angstrum or levelable weapons. If the AoE person is out - group loses it's main source of damage. I understand that DE wants to make game more difficult than that, but AoE weapons are used for AoE, it's not exactly compensated by firing your boltor prime or brakk. Either more people have to pick up AoE weapons, which is inconvenient - therefore troublesome, or too much pressure is placed on the person with AoE weapon.

Well, good for you that you want Nekros. Many good players want Nekros. Like I said - announce it, maybe somebody has missed it. Last time I checked, Nekros was just a warframe, not a prerequisite, not official. If this update makes it official - different story. Maybe also pack a Vauban and Speed Nova here, so that EVERY group was brilliant? Oh and don't forget Nyx and Loki, I also want them in almost every game.

I I recall, it explicitly said that you can take melee only(I believe being able to remove other weapons was shipped the same day), equip melee as your... stance weapon... and wreak havoc. There is really no point in Melee 2.0, in stances and stuff, if you are not entering stance mode.

And here you've also said it. I've tried to keep elitism out of the subject, I warned that I can take the update to the chin, I can deal with it, but I wouldn't be talking for the community(unless you mean my schizophrenic accusations against the update).

You, on the other hand, have expressed that every single user of AoE weapon should have spare 250k for 10x pod blueprint, AND have 9k+resources per ever mission that he needs at least 10 pods in.

If I could agree with more or less splitting the AoE job between the party, forcing people to buy pods to cope with it - that's too much.

Again, what is wrong with 50-60 ammo? This at least gives room for use, room for ammo storage. Would the sun blow up if you use 50 ammo as 20 ammo? Or would it blow up if 50 ammo allows you to be a bit more flexible, than with 20 ammo?

DE has changed 100% to 1%. Surely there would be outrage. If your favourite bar of chocolate costed 1$ and now costs 3$ - you'd be pretty effed up about it, even if store has valid reasons. That is why they could implement it gradually, first 100, listen to community, maybe reduce to 50, again give it some time. Maybe people would at least understand the difference.

But no, 540 turned 20, people have to suck that tough ****. Way to work with community.

50-60 ammo would be the optimal yes. For reasons you stated.

 

Nekros was always necessary for 40min+ survival runs.

 

 

 

To be completely fair that's actually impressive and not *that* easy to do.

 

I usually get downed once or twice by Heavy Gunner masses, but teammates help me quickly. Blocking and sliding can be very useful.

Edited August 14, 2014 by S3EK3R

[PsychedelicSnake]

To be completely fair that's actually impressive and not *that* easy to do.

I almost did similar with a Glaive.

 

And then I had an itch I needed to scratch.

[TX10000]

Then you use your abilities. You know, they exist.

 

I can reach 30 min in T4S with my Dragon Nikana alone.

Abilities without weps to back them up are useless. And T4S has no toxics, correct me if i'm wrong.

[DeadX65]

Somebody lock this please. Its a pointless conversation - People whining and clogging up this forum need to stop complaining, grow up, and pick one of the other ~200 weapons in the game. Or just leave, which would be a better alternative.

like i told the last guy, learn the difference between feedback and whining

 

you are currently whining over people providing feedback on a change they don't particularly like. see the difference? one is actually constructive or at the very least informative in the fact that someone either likes or dislikes game changes, your whining is useless.

 

as to the nerf, what i thought was going to happen when they said sniper ammo, was the standard 72. that made more sense, then both reducing total amount to ridiculous levels and making it sniper., did not see that coming  i've run missions with bows where i've actually ran out, sniper drops are like everything else, rng based. and since they are less common...yeah, that rng can screw you over.

 

at only 20 that's a problem, even at 72 it could be if unlucky but at least you start with a bigger pool.

Edited August 14, 2014 by DeadX65

[Mama_Sasha]

To be completely fair that's actually impressive and not *that* easy to do.

Indeed impressive. I done something similar by going melee only like that. I actauly wrote a guide on how to go melee only. Trust me, its super fun when you get creative durning these missions.

[S3EK3R]

Abilities without weps to back them up are useless. And T4S has no toxics, correct me if i'm wrong.

When your enemies are paralyzed by Rhino or slowed by Nova, etc. it's fairly easy to take them out with secondary and melee weapons.

[LukeAura]

Hardly viable (the secondary idea). As i said previously, eventualy (as you move higher in the waves) there will come a time when you won't kill enough mobs no matter how - to replenish -, until you get overrun. The secondary does play a secondary role really and melee is out of the way because of toxics.

This game is not balanced for infinite scaling(although I haven't actually hear de says this in a while). The farther you go beyond normal expected levels, the less balanced you should expect it to be and the more unfair it to become.

Edited August 14, 2014 by LukeAura

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

The nerf was needed, and I am glad to see the took my suggestion to switch it over to sniper ammo. 

[LukeAura]

I have presented arguments about conveniently increased max ammo, about gradual changes, about impact of changing weapons. You've trolled me out of it. Do better.

That's not trolling btw, strawmanning is trolling and deliberate antagonization with no intention of serious debate. He is telling you to adapt to the problems you find unfair because they are for the better in the end.

Dropping things cold turkey and ripping off bandaids. Gradual changes sometimes aren't the best. There is no need for gradual changes in this case, players will learn to adapt and play smartly without taking the extra time to slowly reduce the numbers.

And there isn't that much higher launchers can realistically go at the moment. Not until Snipers feel balanced any ways. Both are high powered weapons, but the heavy killing potential is nearly equal and launchers  have way more kills per unit of ammo if used correctly. Their current numbers actually make them about equal in number of kills right now, although ammo drops do favour launchers in this regard still.

(And it's actually more 100 to 3.7% but I'm just picky about math.) 

[Azakeroth]

First off, protesting and not giving feedback is pointless. How bout coming up with feedback and help DE?

Second, i had ogris and angstrum since they came out, the ammo count was way too high, and was more like "why should i bring any other weapon when i can sit up high in defense and do nothing but click my mouse button".

Warframe is not a game where you can just stand in one slot and take down 5-30 enemies in one shot, it is a game of skill and planning. I rarely use explosives anymore and rather use my Marelok, Latron Prime/Paris Prime/Vectis etc and have some status builds that i change based on the enemy. And i can easily get past wave 15 in ODD without explosives. Point is the ammo changes to explosives were made to make players think and be more active. There is a reason why warframes have skills, that you have primary/secondary/melee weapons, and that is, USE THEM, stay active and plan your attacks, or are you a NPC with such a bad AI you can only use one weapon and cant move? I know for sure im not, i am a Tenno.

[Wrathinside]

Seems like Letter has utilized some moderation, at least about product placement xD

I understand that you want to explain to people that changing weapons is logical and the only way to go.

The problem is that changing weapons alone won't entirely solve it with the way launchers are used now. You aren't changing Braton for Lato. That's why people dislike it.

And it implies external support, be it mandatory Nekros or even pods, which is over the top, compared to other weapons.

I would accept a consensus, that launchers should be used with more care, if DE on the other hand doesn't make it so tunneled just at their whim.

[TX10000]

First off, protesting and not giving feedback is pointless. How bout coming up with feedback and help DE?

Second, i had ogris and angstrum since they came out, the ammo count was way too high, and was more like "why should i bring any other weapon when i can sit up high in defense and do nothing but click my mouse button".

Warframe is not a game where you can just stand in one slot and take down 5-30 enemies in one shot, it is a game of skill and planning. I rarely use explosives anymore and rather use my Marelok, Latron Prime/Paris Prime/Vectis etc and have some status builds that i change based on the enemy. And i can easily get past wave 15 in ODD without explosives. Point is the ammo changes to explosives were made to make players think and be more active. There is a reason why warframes have skills, that you have primary/secondary/melee weapons, and that is, USE THEM, stay active and plan your attacks, or are you a NPC with such a bad AI you can only use one weapon and cant move? I know for sure im not, i am a Tenno.

This is a form of feedback. If a change is abrupt, how could you have not expected an abrupt reaction?

[Wrathinside]

First off, protesting and not giving feedback is pointless. How bout coming up with feedback and help DE?

Second, i had ogris and angstrum since they came out, the ammo count was way too high, and was more like "why should i bring any other weapon when i can sit up high in defense and do nothing but click my mouse button".

Warframe is not a game where you can just stand in one slot and take down 5-30 enemies in one shot, it is a game of skill and planning. I rarely use explosives anymore and rather use my Marelok, Latron Prime/Paris Prime/Vectis etc and have some status builds that i change based on the enemy. And i can easily get past wave 15 in ODD without explosives. Point is the ammo changes to explosives were made to make players think and be more active. There is a reason why warframes have skills, that you have primary/secondary/melee weapons, and that is, USE THEM, stay active and plan your attacks, or are you a NPC with such a bad AI you can only use one weapon and cant move? I know for sure im not, i am a Tenno.

Mirage reported going past 100 with Penta ODD solo... (Won't vouch for it, but from the details, a fear Kubrow was used, as well as Saryn spectre. Either way, going long-solo ODD with exploitive abilities isn't a discovery of the century)

Oh and getting to wave 15 is possible with Tesla, just so you know.

Personally I never noticed ammo, and I don't like AoE weapons, because they were just that - AoE. As I said - Amprex and rarely Stug does pretty much all the AoE job I need, without manually detonating Penta or charging Ogris. So if you really think that AoE weapons diminish other weapons - perhaps your mentality has forced DE to make this change, and other people have to suffer now?

And... sorry, but your last paragraph is more laughable than even Letter. Warframe is a game of skill and planning? Sticky that. I can't get people to Desecrate or Vortex on cooldown, and you call this game TACTICAL? Bring Nyx to Tower Defense - you win. Bring (good)Vauban to ODD - you win. Bring Loki to Tower Survival - you win. Is that the meticulous planning you are talking about?

Edited August 14, 2014 by Wrathinside

[Azakeroth]

This is a form of feedback. If a change is abrupt, how could you have not expected an abrupt reaction?

That is true, but we can think things over and provide clear feedback. But instead of doing that the OP ranted and went straight to a protest. That is the big difference between productive feedback and unproductive feedback.

And it was not abrupt change, i heard of the planned changes for a bit now. There was time to say something.

Edited August 14, 2014 by Azakeroth