Event - Misleading Enemy Levels

[PeanutMonster]

These supposedly level 12 enemies deal twice the damage compared to the enemies in T4 Void mission. Something is not right here.

 

My point is this: What the hell is the point of even having enemies scale in levels if they don't mean anything?

Edited August 14, 2014 by PeanutMonster

[Letter13]

It's like suspicious shipments all over again!

 

Better call Kenny Loggins. 

 

Because we are in a place of peril. A zone of danger. Danger Zone.

 

[Vyrn]

They got the Suspicious Shipment treatment.

 

edit: doged

Edited August 14, 2014 by Vyrnaazus

[SYLUX6574]

oh yeah lol when i was soloing it even my valkyr had trouble.

[BenzinNinJa]

It's like suspicious shipments all over again!

 

I for one like that we are in a place of peril. A zone of danger. Danger Zone.

 

Agreed. Getting caught with your pants down is fun from time to time.

Edited August 14, 2014 by BenzinNinJa

[sambarpowder]

I wish I knew this going in. My Kubrow was dead before the mission start animation ended.

[PeanutMonster]

It's like suspicious shipments all over again!

 

I for one like that we are in a place of peril. A zone of danger. Danger Zone.

 

And I'm sure new players are very happy about this. Let's just throw the new players experience down the drain, nobody cares about it anymore.

Edited August 14, 2014 by PeanutMonster

[izzatuw]

It's like suspicious shipments all over again!

 

I for one like that we are in a place of peril. A zone of danger. Danger Zone.

I wouldn't mind if my Loki didn't get one shotted by a normal crewman out of a sudden or my Frost dying in less than 2 seconds by a gang of 5 enemies.

[RSITH]

Yea I reach lvl 100 enemies, I would just tell you it wasn't pretty.

[Letter13]

And I'm sure new players are very happy about this. Let's just throw the new players experience down the drain, nobody cares about it anymore.

Or, let's make an event so easy that anyone who's been playing for more than a couple weeks only has to make a funny face at the enemies to make them explode in a shower of sparkles.

 

Because that "nobody cares about X/Y/Z player experience" goes both ways bud.

[PeanutMonster]

Or, let's make an event so easy that anyone who's been playing for more than a couple weeks only has to make a funny face at the enemies to make them explode in a shower of sparkles.

 

Because that "nobody cares about X/Y/Z player experience" goes both ways bud.

 

Since you are an experienced player, I'm sure you don't give a S#&$ about enemy levels. As we all now, it doesn't matter if the enemy is level 5 or 30, you are able to kill it with one shot after having good equipment.

 

The way I see enemy levels is a way of telling new players the difficulty of each mission. I am not suggesting to make the enemies of the event easier, I am just suggesting that the levels of the enemies should be increased, so people don't get too surprised about level 12 enemies being so damn powerful.

Edited August 14, 2014 by PeanutMonster

[Somedude1000]

 

Also, suspicious shipments 2.0. New players could easily get older ones to help them if they wanted to..Or just go volt or mag annd you'll be alright bud. In fact, if they were diligent or careful enough, they may even have been able to complete it solo

 

Then again, I think I may be misunderstanding the post.

Oh well

Edited August 14, 2014 by Somedude1000

[KorbanGado]

Since you are an experienced player, I'm sure you don't give a S#&$ about enemy levels. As we all now, it doesn't matter if the enemy is level 5 or 30, you are able to kill it with one shot after having good equipment.

 

The way I see enemy levels is a way of telling new players the difficulty of each mission. I am not suggesting to make the enemies of the event easier, I am just suggesting that the levels of the enemies should be increased, so people don't get too surprised about level 12 enemies being so damn powerful.

I managed to make it through with a level 10 frame. I'm not going to say it was pretty - it most certainly was not - but it was doable. After getting one shotted by an explosive, i figured out that the best tactic wasn't going to be run and gun and adjusted to play a little safer (which lead to me being exploded through a door).

You win some and lose some. It's a challenge, and the average gamer these days is "all about challenge" (it's almost like people don't play just for fun or something). Will some of the new players be a bit put off by it? Sure, but most likely the biggest hit from that will be the folks who are new and play solo. A group of four picking each other up and working as a team shouldn't have much of an issue with making it through the stage.

At least it's got a limited enemy count. Imagine how terrible the surprise power of enemies would be if it was a defense mission.

[PeanutMonster]

 

Also, suspicious shipments 2.0. New players could easily get older ones to help them if they wanted to.. just go volt or mag annd you'll be alright bud

 

Then again, I think I may be misunderstanding the post.

Oh well

 

The point is this: What the hell is the point of even having enemy levels in this game if they have nothing to do with how powerful the enemies actually are?

[Somedude1000]

The point is this: What the hell is the point of even having enemy levels in this game if they have nothing to do with how powerful the enemies actually are?

 

Perhaps a damage level indicator should be added next to the enemy health level? We can even start a seperate feedback thread just for that, or throw it into fan concepts..

 

Be careful though, With  a mod already watching the thread, and the tone your posts are conveying, this one could get locked

 

Relax bro, this isn't even a thing to get freaked out about, were getting mad about enemy AI in a game being able to shoot our character to death more easily than the usual enemy AI, basicly, were getting worked up over bots, inconsequential, foolishly generated and unreal pieces of code, being able to harm our virtual avatars more easily than usual'

 

You aren't usually like this when giving feedback, Ive seen your previous posts here and there. Keep that good image up, dont let it go down simply by getting mad in one thread

[KorbanGado]

The point is this: What the hell is the point of even having enemy levels in this game if they have nothing to do with how powerful the enemies actually are?

Maybe it's the equivalent of them having potatoed and formad weapons on a normal level 17 guy?

 

Perhaps a damage level indicator should be added next to the enemy health level? We can even start a seperate feedback thread just for that, or throw it into fan concepts..

 

Be careful though, With  a mod already watching the thread, and the tone your posts are conveying, this one could get locked

 

Relax bro, this isn't even a thing to get freaked out about, were getting mad about enemy AI in a game being able to shoot our character to death more easily than the usual enemy AI, basicly, were getting worked up over bots, inconsequential, foolishly generated and unreal pieces of code, being able to harm our virtual avatars more easily than usual'

 

You aren't usually like this when giving feedback, Ive seen your previous posts here and there. Keep that good image up, dont let it go down simply by getting mad in one thread

Why not just implement the standard MMO naming convention of adding color to the names? "Oh no, that guy's a blue name! Red Name? Peace, I'm outta here!" Granted, not really sure how many people take the time to even look at the levels of the enemy while blasting away, so not sure how useful a color indicator or symbol or extra level number would be either.

[Somedude1000]

Why not just implement the standard MMO naming convention of adding color to the names? "Oh no, that guy's a blue name! Red Name? Peace, I'm outta here!" Granted, not really sure how many people take the time to even look at the levels of the enemy while blasting away, so not sure how useful a color indicator or symbol or extra level number would be either.

 

 

Thats actually an awesome idea :D Im still going to call it an indicatr though :3

[Nefarious-EN-]

Indicators are a bad idea, takes away the suprise of meeting enemies that actually fight back.

Edited August 14, 2014 by rudzen

[Keltik0ne]

I never looked at the levels. Nor did I really take much damage, or even come close to dieing soloing the missions I needed.

Since I was using my recently formad valkyr, I was spending a whole lot of time hiding behind stuff and not acting very ninja like at all, which could have been why I wasn't having issues.

 

Was using my Braton Vandal too, with a mag/toxin setup.

 

Just pretend you're playing Spec Ops: The line and not a bad &#! space ninja and you'll be fine.

[Nichivo]

I think the simple solution would be remove all indicators of enemy level throughout the entire game. How am I supposed to know MR. Badguy trained harder than his palls and has a better gun before coming face to face with him without some kind of intel? I shouldn't!

 

Always ready, Always prepared!

 

More random difficulties is just what this game needs. Granted to be a little fair they should maybe scale some for solo, lower rank tenno. Not for groups though, crank that skill cap up, and force team play, it ain't fun till tenno need revives!!

[JHarlequin]

 It is a little ridiculous that they keep rehashing this "Enemies one shot you so it's a challenge" issue.  It's difficult to make enemies work well together.  It's difficult to make a group of enemies an effective challenge, but in general, the enemies doing too much damage is never going to work well.

 

 One good thing to realize is that maybe enemy damage scaling should be a bit different.  Early on they do no damage and take very little to die and people can mow through them, then you level up your stuff and keep mowing through them for a while, but their damage keeps going up.  By the time you can't just blow them away, their damage is so high that suddenly you always die before you even shoot them.

 

 The damage needs to move differently.  Start low, then angle damage up faster then the armor and shields on enemies.  The damage needs to come up sooner, but it also needs to angle off again at some point because they would get too strong too fast.  In the same way that players start weak, jump their damage up a good amount then plateau at a sort of max damage.  The enemies need to do the same thing.  Damage needs to jump up at some point and then stop going up.

 

 As for challenge, work more towards enemies that work together and have specific weaknesses.  Have to lead them into certain spots.  Make it possible to flank an enemy.  Keep them from being absolutely aware of where the players are even if an alert is running.  But don't just make them have infinitely scaling damage.

[KorbanGado]

 It is a little ridiculous that they keep rehashing this "Enemies one shot you so it's a challenge" issue.  It's difficult to make enemies work well together.  It's difficult to make a group of enemies an effective challenge, but in general, the enemies doing too much damage is never going to work well.

 

 One good thing to realize is that maybe enemy damage scaling should be a bit different.  Early on they do no damage and take very little to die and people can mow through them, then you level up your stuff and keep mowing through them for a while, but their damage keeps going up.  By the time you can't just blow them away, their damage is so high that suddenly you always die before you even shoot them.

 

 The damage needs to move differently.  Start low, then angle damage up faster then the armor and shields on enemies.  The damage needs to come up sooner, but it also needs to angle off again at some point because they would get too strong too fast.  In the same way that players start weak, jump their damage up a good amount then plateau at a sort of max damage.  The enemies need to do the same thing.  Damage needs to jump up at some point and then stop going up.

 

 As for challenge, work more towards enemies that work together and have specific weaknesses.  Have to lead them into certain spots.  Make it possible to flank an enemy.  Keep them from being absolutely aware of where the players are even if an alert is running.  But don't just make them have infinitely scaling damage.

Difficulty has been used as a challenge dictator since the old games. Ever played the original Contra? That thing was dang near legendary in status back to the older gamer generations as being extremely challenging - and there wasn't a lick of "smart" AI in the thing. As long as it's hard, its a challenge to beat, although what hard means to any given person can be different.

An example, if you will, from a more modern time would be the Mass Effect multiplayer - it had three difficulties (then they added in that ridiculous fourth later) that you would select from the get go. Non of these difficulties really affected the AI of the enemies as far as I could tell - it would make them hit harder, and it would throw out some heavy hitters more often, but never would the AI suddenly show any more sense of teamwork then before. To most anyone who played it, that hardest difficulty was played almost entirely for the challenge of it - because quite frankly how well you had to work together as a team to make it past the first reward checkpoint drowned out using it as any sort of farming device. 

In this particular game, there's a bit of a disjoint when it comes to difficulty. You have the veterans ("I have everything maxed out and it's just too dang easy three hours into T4 survival"), you have the newbies ("I just can't keep up with the damage output and numbers of the baddies"), you have all the different playstyles (soloists, speedrunners, PUGs, organized clans/friends, stealth players, rambo players) - it's a lot of things you have to factor in. The point of of the vast majority of stages (as said in a devstream at one point) is more of a power-fantasy, of making the players feel like this ancient god of war rampaging through the galaxy to restore balance - but at the same time eventually people are of course going to want a challenge. As it is, the enemy AI here is just as adequate as a plethora of other shooters played in the last 4 years - they run away, they take cover, they come at you in groups - and they've tried adding difficulty in various ways, such as the nightmare mode that tweaks variables in the play (constant health degen, no shields, etc) similar to mutators in other games (such as Skulls in the Halo series), albeit more random. 

 

For "smart ai" options, they gave everyone the PvP side of things - nothing is smarter than a human, right? Although, atm theres all sorts of balancing issues since the game was intended as a coop game.

I dunno, i just think challenge is a more intricate problem than just "make things smarter" and effects a lot more of the game. I'm still rooting for just slapping some difficulties on there that pump enemies up, as opposed to just spending longer and longer in the matches - then giving each enemy a different roll sheet for the loot on a per difficulty basis - allowing people to play easy if they don't want the challenge, and harder if they do (or want the better rewards). Seems to me the best option.

[DSpite]

oh yeah lol when i was soloing it even my valkyr had trouble.

 

Really? Soloing it with an Excalibur and a Glaive. Just need to dodge more. You sure you doing it right?

[DSpite]

And I'm sure new players are very happy about this. Let's just throw the new players experience down the drain, nobody cares about it anymore.

 

Yea, because once they fail the mission, they can't try again, and it has such a SMALL window of time to be done as well !

 

See where sarcasm gets us? That's right. Nowhere. It's an easy mission. You actually need NOT to run face first into things. If you seriously think it's difficult, you are doing it wrong.

[DSpite]

Since you are an experienced player, I'm sure you don't give a S#&$ about enemy levels. As we all now, it doesn't matter if the enemy is level 5 or 30, you are able to kill it with one shot after having good equipment.

 

The way I see enemy levels is a way of telling new players the difficulty of each mission. I am not suggesting to make the enemies of the event easier, I am just suggesting that the levels of the enemies should be increased, so people don't get too surprised about level 12 enemies being so damn powerful.

 

Experienced players? You DO realize that NEW players are scared of the enemy and are NOT Trackmania MOD enhanced, hence they stay at range, shoot things, and take cover. That is how you get through that mission with rubbish gear. I've been soloing it on an account under two weeks old. With a Glaive from a login reward.