Why Do People Dislike Coptering?

[Alphafox]

 

 

 

It doesn't hurt weapon choice per se, it hurts the cooperation between people. 

Most cooperative games organize themselves so that no character is significantly faster than another. This means that even fairly independent players will roughly be running in to the same challenges, or even if going different paths they will be doing so, roughly at the same time, even without directly helping each other they will still be in some way dividing it up as they go. 

Most then reinforce the notion of one class being faster by making it mostly related to in combat skills with more mobility/flexibility. Getting between combat situations is only a small differential between different classes. 

They don't rely on people being cooperative with each other to feel cooperative, and it actually makes them better coop games oddly enough. 

Don't know, I can think of at least one cooperative game wherein one class was significantly faster (unless my memory is off which is possible, I'm too lazy to load it up and check) than the others and it was not the result of combat skills. I have a feeling that I know of quite a few but I just can't think of them right now. The games that usually follow your description are MMOs, games where speed variation among classes is practically unheard of or barely there.

TF2 is the perfect example for that. The scout is significantly faster than any other classes. From what i remember TF2 is a cooperative game. All the classes got their speed,jump eight etc, even rocket jumping(which can be see like zorencopter).

 

Tribes ascend is another example. All the classes got a maximum speed and a defined role. Cooperation is a must in that game, even with different speed.

[darkkterror]

Whenever I think of coptering:

 

[Tiqalicious]

wrong, and you should feel bad for using weak-strawmen like this

 

coptering works against and hurts several other existing ingame mechanics, calling it "emergent gameplay" is a total cop-out and not reflective of the truth

 

just because some ppl like it is not a good reason to leave this bug ingame, that's incredibly poor logic

DE have openly acknowledged it as emergent gameplay, so guess which one of us is wrong here. (Hint: it's not me) :D

[vaugahn]

DE have openly acknowledged it as emergent gameplay, so guess which one of us is wrong here. (Hint: it's not me) :D

 

The strawman part is "some people just don't like X"

[LukeAura]

TF2 is the perfect example for that. The scout is significantly faster than any other classes. From what i remember TF2 is a cooperative game. All the classes got their speed,jump eight etc, even rocket jumping(which can be see like zorencopter).

I'm fairly sure TF2 was a PvP game, technically its cooperative in that sense, but changes the scenario quite a bit. The scouts mobility is balanced out a lot by dealing with real humans instead of Ai, and maps are probably a lot smaller for that game than warframe, his extra mobility is not so much about getting between entirely separate combat sections, because the entire map is technically one battle, even if no one is shooting at another at any given point. I'd probably expect the difference in speed between a scout and heavy to be a smaller gap than CopterLoki and Nocopter Frost as well, but I don't know the game well enough to say that. 

The games I'll list off the top of my head are Borderlands/2, Dynasty Warriors, Dark Souls, and technically Journey(I'm not sure if it quite counts, but it is fairly close) as examples of not MMOtypes. 

Edited August 20, 2014 by LukeAura

[Tiqalicious]

The strawman part is "some people just don't like X"

The poster I was responding to is literally arguing that since it's not by design, it's a "bug" and needs to be removed, DESPITE the developers themselves recognising it as emergent gameplay.

So tell me, which part of "some people really just don't like the idea of emergent gameplay" am I off point on exactly?

[Vallerian]

I thought coptering was a legit mechanic, never for a second thought it was a glitch =P

 

[(PSN)CrimsonShinku]

 

 

 

It doesn't hurt weapon choice per se, it hurts the cooperation between people. 

Most cooperative games organize themselves so that no character is significantly faster than another. This means that even fairly independent players will roughly be running in to the same challenges, or even if going different paths they will be doing so, roughly at the same time, even without directly helping each other they will still be in some way dividing it up as they go. 

Most then reinforce the notion of one class being faster by making it mostly related to in combat skills with more mobility/flexibility. Getting between combat situations is only a small differential between different classes. 

They don't rely on people being cooperative with each other to feel cooperative, and it actually makes them better coop games oddly enough. 

 

 

no it doesn't hurt cooperative, as the others said there's plenty of games with really faster characters than the rest of the team. the TEAM defines how cooperative they want to be, the A****** who doesn't cooperate can be the volt with an amphis, or the frost snowglobing  everywhere and not letting you shoot anything.

 

having a really speedy character opens room for cooperation, team A can do X thing while the loki copterer focuses on getting the life support all the way to the other side of the map, and so and so. if one of the two teams covering a door goes down, a member of the other team on the other side can copter there in a flash and revive, etc etc.

 

the problem isn't coptering, the problem in here is that people don't want to cooperate, copter or no copter. and this is because for almost every mission, going in guns blazing is enough, you don't even need to say a word to your teammates, in fact, most probably don't unless something really annoys you about a teammate

[vaugahn]

The poster I was responding to is literally arguing that since it's not by design, it's a "bug" and needs to be removed, DESPITE the developers themselves recognising it as emergent gameplay.

So tell me, which part of "some people really just don't like the idea of emergent gameplay" am I off point on exactly?

 

A strawman is when you misinterpret someone's argument to make it easier to attack. People have given their various reasons as to why they like or dislike coptering, and saying that the people who don't like it "just don't like emergent gameplay!" is wrong.

[LukeAura]

no it doesn't hurt cooperative, as the others said there's plenty of games with really faster characters than the rest of the team. the TEAM defines how cooperative they want to be, the A****** who doesn't cooperate can be the volt with an amphis, or the frost snowglobing  everywhere and not letting you shoot anything.

 

having a really speedy character opens room for cooperation, team A can do X thing while the loki copterer focuses on getting the life support all the way to the other side of the map, and so and so. if one of the two teams covering a door goes down, a member of the other team on the other side can copter there in a flash and revive, etc etc.

Those are games designed around having such diverse speeds, which usually involve elements of multiple easy to see pathways, the map is usually fairly small, and are usually more PvP oriented in nature. The larger the speed difference, the less damaging it usually can be to the gameplay. 

Warframe has one path to follow through a mission, paths would not be easy to see even if with multiple of them, maps are also a lot larger and the speed differential in Warframe is probably greater as well.

And I do admit elements of speed/mobility/flexibility are good, but it is only when they are focused on the combat situation as you say, not on getting between entirely separate combat situations. That is where speed fails in coop.  

Games that don't rely on cooperation from players keep them relatively together through other means such as controlling the maximum difference in speed, games that rely on player habits of cooperation make it very difficult to succeed without it. Warframe being the way it is, it would make more sense to control the difference of speed than to drastically realter the fundamentals of the rest of the game. 

[Kartumterek]

It has been adopted as a legitimate mechanic, it's really very simple.

Some dude saying he likes it on a devstream doesn't make it legitimate. When it is removed (not if, but when) I'll be sure to come back and giggle.

Beta players not wanting to get beta bugs fixed= why are you even here

[LukeAura]

Some dude saying he likes it on a devstream doesn't make it legitimate. When it is removed (not if, but when) I'll be sure to come back and giggle.

Devs knowingly buffed it with melee 2.0, it's not some dude, it's some dev, on a legitimate devstream. 

[Kartumterek]

Devs knowingly buffed it with melee 2.0, it's not some dude, it's some dev, on a legitimate devstream.

It is going to be removed. Get it out of your system while you can

[LukeAura]

It is going to be removed. Get it out of your system while you can

I am entirely all for its removal.

But it is, since about melee 2.0 and maybe even earlier, a legitimate mechanic as DE has said. Please do not change the subject like that, it is quite rude.

If you would like to debate its merits that is a much better topic of conversation and certainly still on the table for you to discuss.   

 

[Kartumterek]

I am entirely all for its removal.

But it is, since about melee 2.0 and maybe even earlier, a legitimate mechanic as DE has said. Please do not change the subject like that, it is quite rude.

If you would like to debate its merits that is a much better topic of conversation and certainly still on the table for you to discuss.

There is nothing to discuss regarding movement exploits

[sorq]

Coptering is one of the features in warframe. If not why would it still be here after tons of hotfixes and updates? I do remember a certain devstream mentioning that coptering is staying because it's a feature. Though i'm not sure which stream was it again.

[(PSN)theelix]

Some dude saying he likes it on a devstream doesn't make it legitimate. When it is removed (not if, but when) I'll be sure to come back and giggle.

Beta players not wanting to get beta bugs fixed= why are you even here

Some dude is a developer, someone who plays around with the game itself. He has a high say on what stays or goes in Warframe. He's not just some dude that just said it's staying, it's a dev that said it's staying.

[Kartumterek]

Coptering is one of the features in warframe. If not why would it still be here after tons of hotfixes and updates? I do remember a certain devstream mentioning that coptering is staying because it's a feature. Though i'm not sure which stream was it again.

Coptering is not a feature. It is a long standing movement exploit.

DE took the time to do Melee 2.0 which the vast majority of the playerbase flat out ignores because the only feature they want out of the melee slot is how many meters they can be shot forward during a spin move. A most wondrous and skilled use of the slot.

Where is the common sense?

[Balmungofsky]

Coptering is not a feature. It is a long standing movement exploit.

DE took the time to do Melee 2.0 which the vast majority of the playerbase flat out ignores because the only feature they want out of the melee slot is how many meters they can be shot forward during a spin move. A most wondrous and skilled use of the slot.

Where is the common sense?

You continue to ignore the evidence being placed in front of you. Where is your common sense. When a Developer of the game who says what stays and goes says it's staying it's got a massive chance of staying. You can argue all you want about it being a movement exploit at you've labeled it, but it's been correctly labeled by the creators as something legit. You can cover your ears and scream nananananan I can't hear you, but that still won't change things. Accept it, stop being so close minded and try doing some research about what you talk about before accepting that your opinions are what's true.

[Kartumterek]

You continue to ignore the evidence being placed in front of you. Where is your common sense. When a Developer of the game who says what stays and goes says it's staying it's got a massive chance of staying. You can argue all you want about it being a movement exploit at you've labeled it, but it's been correctly labeled by the creators as something legit. You can cover your ears and scream nananananan I can't hear you, but that still won't change things. Accept it, stop being so close minded and try doing some research about what you talk about before accepting that your opinions are what's true.

You can only use the exploit with certain weapons. If it was such an ingrained aspect of the game why doesn't it work with every single melee weapon?

You can try to be a lawyer about it all you want. It IS an exploit, it has always been an exploit, and it will be either removed or adjusted at some point

/tosses the mic

[(PSN)CrimsonShinku]

You can only use the exploit with certain weapons. If it was such an ingrained aspect of the game why doesn't it work with every single melee weapon?

You can try to be a lawyer about it all you want. It IS an exploit, it has always been an exploit, and it will be either removed or adjusted at some point

/tosses the mic

gee, i wonder, why aren't all melee weapons exactly the same? that way everyone would be able to use whatever they want, be it a 10 feet polearm or a 3 cm dagger, and do exactly the same things.

 

why aren't all the rifles the same? why is the boltor prime so obviously better than the boltor, why is one of the weapons of a group so much better than the others? why aren't all guns the same?

 

why isn't every warframe the same? if warframes are such an ingrained aspect of the game (it's in the title!) why don't they all do the same thing? why are some so obviously better at some things than others?

 

how much more OBVIOUS can i put it? it got a nice adjustment in melee2.0 by the way, now more weapons can copter.

 

Those are games designed around having such diverse speeds, which usually involve elements of multiple easy to see pathways, the map is usually fairly small, and are usually more PvP oriented in nature. The larger the speed difference, the less damaging it usually can be to the gameplay. 

Warframe has one path to follow through a mission, paths would not be easy to see even if with multiple of them, maps are also a lot larger and the speed differential in Warframe is probably greater as well.

And I do admit elements of speed/mobility/flexibility are good, but it is only when they are focused on the combat situation as you say, not on getting between entirely separate combat situations. That is where speed fails in coop.  

Games that don't rely on cooperation from players keep them relatively together through other means such as controlling the maximum difference in speed, games that rely on player habits of cooperation make it very difficult to succeed without it. Warframe being the way it is, it would make more sense to control the difference of speed than to drastically realter the fundamentals of the rest of the game. 

they can just design more maps less focused on open spaces and more focused on other kind of movements, derelicts are a good example, go in there with an amphis and try to copter your way to the end, chances are the guy simply walking get there faster.

 

and that's good! we need more of that! maps that promote different kind of movements, instead, everyone, and you in the last paragraph, seem to prefer to simply slow everyone down instead of actually embracing the mechanic. and sure it's possible, but i like to think that instead of that, the game should rise up to the challenge and better itself. not just nerf anything that goes out of the planned

 

and regarding your middle paragraph, i can't understand what exactly you're saying there.

[TheErebus.]

You continue to ignore the evidence being placed in front of you. Where is your common sense. When a Developer of the game who says what stays and goes says it's staying it's got a massive chance of staying. You can argue all you want about it being a movement exploit at you've labeled it, but it's been correctly labeled by the creators as something legit. You can cover your ears and scream nananananan I can't hear you, but that still won't change things. Accept it, stop being so close minded and try doing some research about what you talk about before accepting that your opinions are what's true.

The devs don't run what my personal (and other) opinions are. By this logic, the devs can say that melee 2.0 is the best feature of the entire game and then we all have to agree with them.

 

No. I see it as an exploit. I would like it if it was removed OR if it actually gets worked on and made (at the very least) refined to be a bigger part. Give it some new animations, it's own kind of style (like all weapons can copter, but certain aspects of it are represented in different weapons).

[(PSN)Wizteh]

I copter without thinking about it, but it actually looks pretty funny.

[ReaperShade]

we already have differences between the warframes in sprintspeed as well as sheild regen speed.

 

If we assume that warframebuilder has the correct base stats for the warframes

 

ash has 1.15 sprint speed 30.00 shield regen per sec 80 stamina

 

banshee has 1.10 sprint speed 30.00 shield regen per sec 80 stamina

 

ember has a 1.00 sprint speed  30.00 shield regen per sec 80 stamina

 

 excalibur has a sprint speed of 1.00 and 30.00 shield regen speed 80 stamina

 

frost has a sprint speed of 0.9 and 37.50 shield regen per sec 80 stamina

 

hydroid has a sprint speed of 1.00 and 32.25 shield regen speed per sec 150 stamina

 

loki has a sprint speed of 1.25 and a shield regen speed of 26.25 per sec 80 stamina (loki prime has 100 stamina)

 

mag has a sprint speed of 1.00 and a shield regen speed of 37.50 per sec 100 stamina

 

mirage has sprint speed of 1.00 and a shield regen speed of 27.00 per sec and 100 stamina

 

necros has a sprint speed of 1.10 and a shield regen speed of 28.50 and 80 stamina

 

nova has a sprint speed of 1.20 and a shield regen speed of 26.25 and 80 stamina

 

nyx has a sprint speed of 1.10 and a shield regen rate of 30.00 per sec and 80 stamina

 

oberon has a sprint speed of 1.00 and a sheild regen speed of 30.00 and 80 stamina

 

rhino has a sprint speed of 0.9 and a shield regen speed of 37.50 per sec and 80 stamina

 

rhino prime has a sprint speed to 1.00 same shield regen and stamina

 

saryn has a sprint speed of 0.95 and a shield regen of 30.00 and 80 stamina

 

trinity is base across the board with 1.00 sprint speed 30.00 shield regen per sec and 80 stamina

 

valkyr has a sprint speed of 1.10 and a shield regen of 22.50 per sec and 150 stamina

 

vauban has a sprint speed of 1.00 a sheild regen of 26.25 and 80 stamina

 

Volt has 1.00 sprint speed a shield regen of 37.50 per sec and 80 stamina 

 

zephyr has a sprint speed of 1.00 and a sheild regen of 37.50 per sec and 80 stamina

 

 

while loki is the fastest even before coptering his base stamina means that without mods he will run out of stamina long before most others frames. 

 

while rhino and frost is the slowest frames they also are among the frames with the fastest shield regen at 37.50 per sec while the faster frames like loki 26.25 per sec and nova  26.25 has the slowest shield regen speed coupled with the lowest stamina at 80.

 

It could be that DE has tried to balance rhino and frosts slow speed with their endurance and high shield regen.

 

As for coptering itself well i dont use it in the air i only use it on the group if "rushers" take of like a speeding bullet and i cant keep up even when using speed as volt. 

 

The fact that coptering does not use stamina at all makes it the superior way to travel in warframe due to the fact that the stamina in this game drains incredible fast.  Even more so for me who is new and dont have catalysts to super charge my frames. 

 

if coptering would drain your stamina it would make it less prone to be the only free to use speed boost in the game besides wallrunning speed boosts. 

 

But as others have already said rushing is a mentality and nothing something that will disappear if DE removes coptering from the game. They will just find new ways to rush instead. 

[Snougar]

I see a lot of people who are unhappy with 'coptering. But for it being removed... I don't think they will remove it, given how many times they have joked and made mention of it in the streams, its like the GoldSrc engine and bunnyhopping (In a way), it is just a part of the engines physics (or in this case animations too)). At most it will be made into a "lunge" attack combo or something similar.

I've been playing this for a long while (Going on 18 month from U5/6) and I've never really had a game where someone 'coptering ruined 'the experience'.

And if the main worry is people rushing ahead.. people will do that regardless if they can do it or not.