Serrated Blade Damage's Concept Into Damage 2.0

[Casardis]

With the possible coming of Hikou Prime, I want to bring this topic of mine back.

 

For those who were around before Damage 2.0, you probably remember the "serrated blade" damage type, which ignored armor and did the 3x damage against light infested like blade/slash damage. It was a very powerful damage type, and made weapons such as Dual Ether pretty nice, Flux Rifle very powerful, and so on.

 

What I'm asking here is to bring the idea of "slashing through armor" back with some weapons that had it before, and while it can't be exactly like before due to all the changes made in Damage 2.0 (thankfully since Serrated Blade was super strong), it can emulate it. Explanations below.

 

My idea is that previously Serrated Blade weapons should now focus on slashing-puncture "equal" damage distribution, so it does extra damage against flesh/infested, while also having some bonus against armor, making damage reduction from armor smaller even without elementals. Also, by "focus", I don't mean a mere 7 puncture damage for 20 slash damage; I'm talking about at least 12 puncture damage and 15 slash damage. It has to be a ratio of at least 2/3 or higher to be "equally distributed.".

 

EDIT: If it wasn't clear enough, I'm not asking to get Serrated Blade damage back. I'm asking DE to give us damage distribution on some of those weapons to emulate that old damage type, which will also promote more variety in base damage distribution in different weapons, as explained above in my examples and stuff.

 

 

Example of weapons that could use a slashing-puncture formula, following their Damage 1.0 damage type

 

 

Dual Ether

- Was previously dealing Serrated Blade damage on normal and charge attacks

 

- From lore standpoint, it would fit its description of "cutting so cleanly that it was considered by the Tenno to be a more humane weapon for 'cleansing' infested allies."

-- Since it's made of a mysterious material, it can explain why it can go through armor more easily.

 

- Would create a bigger difference from similar weapons, like Dual Kama and Nami Skyla

-- Dual Kama is currently a direct upgrade with a different appearance, and makes me feel like it's a design choice that could have been much better. I don't mind it being better, and I care less about it being harder to build because of that. What I do question is how it's arguably better in every single way, gameplay-wise.

 

- Current VS Proposed Approx. Damage Distribution

Impact: 6 -> 6

Puncture: 6 -> 16
Slash: 28 -> 18

 

 

Flux Rifle

- Would make it much more versatile outside of Infested without counting on elementals too much.

 

- It's a weapon used by Elites. Most enemies the Corpus are fighting against are the Grineer. It would make sense for them to develop weapons specialized against them besides the Supra

-- In comparison, most of the Grineer weaponry are either slashing, or impact, perfect to fight the Corpus

--- Back in damage 1.0, invasions where Elite Crewmen were present, they would be able to stand ground against the Grineer much more thanks to the ability to bypass armor. Though that will be too much for the current system, a little multiplier against armor in general wouldn't be bad to give the poor Corpus a bit of a buff.

 

- Current VS Proposed Approx. Damage Distribution

Impact: 2.3 -> 2.6

Puncture: 2.3 -> 10
Slash: 18 -> 10

 

 

Hikou

- All three "basic" throwing weapons all share the same damage-focus (puncture), while in damage 1.0, the three of them had different damage-type.

-- Kunai was Physics Impact (damage 2.0 could have made it puncture-impact focused instead of puncture)

-- Despair was Armor Piercing (fine as it is in damage 2.0 with puncture focus)

-- Hikou was Serrated Blade (could have been puncture-slash focused instead of puncture)

 

- Changing that will also differentiate the three throwing knives a bit more, in the same way as the bows (Paris - Puncture ; Cernos - Impact ; Dread - Slashing)

 

- Current VS Proposed Approx. Damage Distribution

Impact: 2.5 -> 2.5

Puncture: 15 -> 12
Slash: 7.5 -> 10.5

 

It doesn't have to make complete sense in the realistic way, especially since it already doesn't with most things in Warframe (Twin Gremlin doing equal damage type; Hydroid's tentacle doing Magnetic; etc). It's more of a gameplay design choice than realism. This makes me especially nitpicky when it comes to the "kunai-type" weapons.

 

Currently many weapons, especially melee, follow the pattern of slash/impact/puncture damage distribution with one type having most of the damage. It's either impact-focused, puncture-focused, or slash-focused; and pretty much never distributed evenly for the sake of gameplay design, so less exploration/risk taking (even though many projectile weapons do have that). Therefore, all I want from this is for a more varied damage distribution in certain weapons.

 

TL;DR: Make previously Serrated Blade weapons from damage 1.0 into slash-puncture focused weapons in current damage 2.0. For the sake of variety and exploration with damage between weapons, make damage stats distribution more varied.

Edited September 8, 2014 by Casardis

[Jamescell]

Not something we absolutely need... But I agree. 

[Casardis]

Not something we absolutely need... But I agree. 

 

Not "absolutely," no, but I do think such mindset is needed in the long run due to the amount of weapons we keep getting. I prefer DE to differentiate the current "kunai-type" weapons instead of saturating us by making new ones that will be slashing and impact. I find such a thing to be crucial in terms of designing a variety of weapons for gameplay differences, so that the difference isn't simply "straight damage upgrade" or "speed upgrade."

Edited September 7, 2014 by Casardis

[HAYABU5A]

its a good idea

 

serrated blade damage gave us a unique reason to use some weapons that were too similar to others, but that was lost with dmg 2.0

[Angius]

+1

I'd very much like Serrated Blade damage coming back.

[Azamagon]

Entirely agreed!

 

Just look at all the Thrown - Mostly Puncture-focused. That doesn't add up to their old styles at all! Despair should be mainly Puncture, Kunai could be allround, and Hikou should be Slash+Puncture (a bit more Slash, to differ from Despair more).

 

Ether weapons should all be quite split between Slash and Puncture too.

 

Not exactly related to old Serrated Blade weapons, but more weapons need changing in regards to physical damage distributions. For example: All the Scythes. Why so Slash-focused, ALL of them? Why not some more puncture in them?

 

This lack of variety in the damage-distributions is a big problem in general imo (although more so for the melee weapons). So much wasted potential variety :(

[MonsieurZero]

A Kunai with more focus on impact... perhaps DE should add baseballs for an impact damage thrown weapon. No one could stand up to a Volt's fastball.

[Azamagon]

A Kunai with more focus on impact... perhaps DE should add baseballs for an impact damage thrown weapon. No one could stand up to a Volt's fastball.

Lol, maybe not a baseball, but more stuff like, slightly spiked metallical balls, probably most realistically effective with some kind of chain-attachment, making them into some kind of space-bolas, that'd be neat! :)

[RSITH]

Like it . APPROVED

[Angius]

Give us some space marbles, so we can throw them in enemies' faces and make them trip.

[Azawarau]

Seems like that old type was OP

 

Superb damage against 2 factions seems OP

[Casardis]

Give us some space marbles, so we can throw them in enemies' faces and make them trip.

 

Tenno Caltrops pls

 

 

Seems like that old type was OP

 

Superb damage against 2 factions seems OP

 

Yes, because apparently distributing base damage in a weapon to make it equally slash-puncture instead of only puncture is OP.

You didn't even read my post nor my TL;DR, did you?

Edited September 7, 2014 by Casardis

[Azawarau]

Tenno Caltrops pls

 

 

 

Yes, because apparently distributing base damage in a weapon to make it equally slash-puncture instead of only puncture is OP.

You didn't even read my post nor my TL;DR, did you?

I wasnt talking about that

 

Pay attention

[Casardis]

I wasnt talking about that

 

Pay attention

 

I see. My bad about the sarcastic tone.

Edited September 8, 2014 by Casardis

[.Talia.]

Oh man... You made me nostalgic...

I remember running my immortal masochist Trinity with 5 forma Flux Rifle cutting everything in half with Serrated Blade Damage.

 

Good Times.

[Casardis]

Oh man... You made me nostalgic...

I remember running my immortal masochist Trinity with 5 forma Flux Rifle cutting everything in half with Serrated Blade Damage.

 

Good Times.

 

I feel your nostalgia man.

 

*shares a drink*

[Netheroc]

This wouldnt emulate serrated blade, since slash damage gets a heavy decrease from the armor, namely -15% on ferrite and -50% on alloy. Meaning that a weapon that has balanced damage types of 100 puncture/100slash would deal:

Ferrite armor: 150 puncture and 85 slash
Alloy armor: 115 puncture and 50 slash
Cloned flesh: 100 puncture and 125 slash

See the problem? If the values of slash's reduced damage against alloy and ferrite were swapped, OR the values of puncture's increased damage would swap, it would be fine. But thats not the case.

Edited September 8, 2014 by Netheroc

[Azawarau]

I see. My bad about the sarcastic tone.

No worries

 

Everyone does it sometimes

[Casardis]

This wouldnt emulate serrated blade, since slash damage gets a heavy decrease from the armor, namely -15% on ferrite and -50% on alloy. Meaning that a weapon that has balanced damage types of 100 puncture/100slash would deal:

Ferrite armor: 150 puncture and 85 slash

Alloy armor: 115 puncture and 50 slash

Cloned flesh: 100 puncture and 125 slash

See the problem? If the values of slash's reduced damage against alloy and ferrite were swapped, OR the values of puncture's increased damage would swap, it would be fine. But thats not the case.

 

Good point there, though it still works due to the increase mutliplier on Cloned Flesh (though I'd prefer if slash multiplier was actually 50% instead of 25%). My points on distributing damage in a less predictable way still stands.

 

It would emulate Serrated Blade in idea, as in it will deal decent damage against armored targets thanks to the additional puncture damage (therefore more bonus damage). It will never emulate Serrated Blade completely obviously, and that's good. I'm just using Serrated Blade as an example to show how damage distribution could be a bit more varied, whether it affects gameplay a ton or not. It's more a matter of design, really.

 

You still made a valid point of course, but these things are discussions to be brought in another topic, since it has more to do with the overall model of Damage 2.0.

Edited September 8, 2014 by Casardis

[RealPandemonium]

Just give those weapons a high proc chance; Slash proc damage ignores armor and its very effective against even high level Grineer when it occurs.

[Dasmir]

Puncture and Serrated was broken as hell in damage 1.0 so i dont see how serrated can come back when Slash its already there. An no De will never mix physical damage (even the physical damage mods are crapy as hell)

[Casardis]

Puncture and Serrated was broken as hell in damage 1.0 so i dont see how serrated can come back when Slash its already there. An no De will never mix physical damage (even the physical damage mods are crapy as hell)

 

Once again, I'm not talking about bringing Serrated Blade damage back literally. I even made that clear in the title of the topic and several times in the OP, in case you somehow missed those as well as what my suggestion is about here.

 

And yes, DE has mixed physical damage distribution more than once. Look at the Twin Gremlins for example. All I'm asking is for them to continue doing this kind of thing more often since melee weapons' damage distribution tend to be too obvious. This is especially important when too many similar weapons exist (Kunai/Hikou/Despair).

 

Lastly, for your information, "Armor Piercing (Damage 1.0) and "Puncture (Damage 2.0)" are two different things. Careful when you mix the terms up, since you might have misunderstood my topic just because of that.

Edited September 8, 2014 by Casardis

[RealPandemonium]

Puncture and Serrated was broken as hell in damage 1.0 so i dont see how serrated can come back when Slash its already there. An no De will never mix physical damage (even the physical damage mods are crapy as hell)

At least read the OP before replying.

[Casardis]

Just give those weapons a high proc chance; Slash proc damage ignores armor and its very effective against even high level Grineer when it occurs.

 

Missed on this post. Sorry about that!

Does Slash proc actually ignore armor? I'm pretty sure it ignores shields, but that the DoT is affected by armor (try to find sense in that if it's true XD).

 

They could use higher proc chance, yes, but that's not what I'm asking for; it's just a matter of distributing the base damage in different ways first and foremost, in order to promote further little differences between similar weapons (like the kunai-type weapons where all three of them are puncture-focused).

 

The proc chance can then be decided later on.

Edited September 8, 2014 by Casardis

[RealPandemonium]

Slash procs deal Finisher damage that ignores armor, shields, and resists.  They do 7 ticks of 35% of the pre-resist damage of the hit that causes them.  The first tick is dealt simultaneously with the hit and the other 6 are dealt over the next 6 seconds.  It's quite effective vs late game Grineer who shrug off almost everything due to armor scaling.