Boltor Prime: Killing The Game?

[MirageKnight]

Because it's stronger than the automatic rifles made before it. I thought that was a given...

 

It's clearly NOT obvious to everyone. Please don't assume too much about the rest of us as not all of us are as into the game as you seem to be. Ok?

 

 

Becouse is has over 300 more innate dps than any weapon in game ?

 

If that's correct, that just makes it a bit more powerful than the second best weapon(s) and makes it a top tier weapon - and thus worthy of at least MR8 while we're on the topic of discussing the weapon's MR. 

 

No offense intended, but your early statement that the weapon IS power creep strikes me as claiming opinion to be fact and as such is a flawed argument.

 

On topic: Seeing as Warframe is MAINLY a PvE game...what's the problem with the Boltor Prime being as powerful as it is if it allows you to kill off high level enemies more easily than other weapons? I agree that it should only be accessible to players with a high Mastery level, but honestly, what's the big deal other than that? If the other Prime weapons are not even remotely as good in comparison, why not buff them as an additional solution? I can think of at least ONE Prime that could use said buff, but that's for another topic.

[Seanjuju]

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Paris_Prime 

Mastery rank 4. 

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Boar_Prime

Mastery rank 2.

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Bo_Prime

Mastery rank 5.

They need to just add a mastery to the boltor prime. I feel like M8~9 would be fine.

I'm aware that there's one or two prime weapons that work within the mastery system. However, nearly all prime gear is exempt (I would classify mastery 2 as exempt) of mastery. It would appear to me that this mastery exemption is a feature of prime weapons. There's also no apparent correlation between the power of prime gear and whether it is mastery exempt. 

 

Instead of a mastery requirement, I'm more interested in seeing the alternative system which these mastery exemptions are evidence of, function. The mastery system is a joke. It's outdated. It's under-supported. It's not relevant. It's in desperate need of reform.

[Arabaxus]

Long story short:

If Prime weapons are supposed to be exempt, which from the some of the newer weapons, like Bo Prime, seem to suggest otherwise, then this needs to be changed.

 

Mastery Rank needs to mean something. Strong weapons should be locked behind Mastery Rank. Compromise, and make Boltor Prime at MR 10 or something, so that it's high MR, but doesn't require you to literally farm weapons just for mastery. Also raise the MR requirements for the strong weapons.

[LukeAura]

If this is going to be a discussion about fixing mastery rank(not another amiright?), it's probably worth mentioning Mastery rank really has no correlation to in game time spent playing missions. I think it'd be better if mastery rank was more heavily tied to total earned experience more than anything. That would make more sense any ways. 

[Xana_Skullsunder]

If this is going to be a discussion about fixing mastery rank(not another amiright?), it's probably worth mentioning Mastery rank really has no correlation to in game time spent playing missions. I think it'd be better if mastery rank was more heavily tied to total earned experience more than anything. That would make more sense any ways. 

 

Maybe, but I don't see DE overhauling the system entirely considering they forget to use it, 9 times out of 10. They should at least try to use the system they put in the game in the first place to balance what a new player has access to.

[Cat_Jam]

Bumping because the Boltor Prime needs balancing.

 

On topic though, I agree with everyone asking for prime weapons to require a much higher mastery rank. It means that newbies aren't gaining OP weapons straight away and also gives mastery ranks a purpose.

[Lost_Cartographer]

Mastery rank is both a poor gating concept and just delays the inevitable.  The fact remains, a game that can't retain a player has either failed the player, or as is possible in Warframe's case, the player made things too easy/formulaic for themselves.

 

I slap on a decayed dragon key just to make missions even harder for myself, and use "poorly" modded average weapons so that my enemies don't all die in one shot.  Holy $#!% balls are level 15 MOAs scary!

 

Warframe is the game where you make your own fun.  If you're in it to get the best stuff and run T3/T4 endless defense and survival, it's going to be a very short lived, very grindy adventure.  Small goals are still cool though, like obtaining X mod or weapon, but picking up the Boltor Prime and using it exclusively instead of exploring other weapons just because they're weaker?  That's on the player more than it is on DE.  Players that pick the easy setting don't get to complain about the game being too easy when the veteran, legendary and mythical settings are available to them via a huge plethora of weapons, frames and mod builds.

 

Basically, you don't NEED to use the boltor prime, serration, and split chamber until the wave 30/40 minute mark if you want a challenge.

 

Yeah... I know... ever since WoW, the greater population of gamers as a whole has been trained to only use the best stuff and that progression is the only reason to play, despite their rabid hatred of grinding.

Edited September 21, 2014 by Littleman88

[Sebastianx]

Need MR10 at least, not 6-7-8-9 as people keep saying.

[ST4LKBR]

You're right, you can't just simply get this with MR 0, you must first learn how to use weapons properly.

[angrykenji]

if new people buy the prime access i can see why the lower mastery rank. people paid real $ so i'm sure they want to use them. but i still agree with higher mastery requirements

[_Fracture8]

if new people buy the prime access i can see why the lower mastery rank. people paid real $ so i'm sure they want to use them. but i still agree with higher mastery requirements

 

That is a real problem yeah, DE has kinda backed themselves into a corner with Prime Access now.

[Vanadium]

That is a real problem yeah, DE has kinda backed themselves into a corner with Prime Access now.

 

At least they aren't bankrupt. Even so, the Rhino Prime Access (which came with BoltorP) was really the only pack that offered an easy mode package (except them Ankyros, el-oh-el).

 

 

It's clearly NOT obvious to everyone. Please don't assume too much about the rest of us as not all of us are as into the game as you seem to be. Ok?

 

If that's correct, that just makes it a bit more powerful than the second best weapon(s) and makes it a top tier weapon - and thus worthy of at least MR8 while we're on the topic of discussing the weapon's MR. 

 

No offense intended, but your early statement that the weapon IS power creep strikes me as claiming opinion to be fact and as such is a flawed argument.

 

On topic: Seeing as Warframe is MAINLY a PvE game...what's the problem with the Boltor Prime being as powerful as it is if it allows you to kill off high level enemies more easily than other weapons? I agree that it should only be accessible to players with a high Mastery level, but honestly, what's the big deal other than that? If the other Prime weapons are not even remotely as good in comparison, why not buff them as an additional solution? I can think of at least ONE Prime that could use said buff, but that's for another topic.

 

You're sure are getting defensive. Almost suggests a dependence on Boltor Prime.

 

Your last paragraph, you just described power creep. And this is what's been happening since last September: increasingly powerful gear necessitating buffs for the rest of the weapons so that they stay viable. Having a single weapon out of 140+ which is better than pretty much every other weapon is really boring. Though seeing most players using not-Boltor Prime when I know they have one (I do too, forma'd twice), at least makes me think that this community is far from the worst. They (we) don't want easy mode, they want fun mode.

 

First, lets just look at the vanilla Boltor. At 25 base dmg and like 10 RoF (too lazy to check), it's hardly OP. Open Beta day 1, the Boltor was 18 base dmg and had a 30 round mag. And that was enough. It was considered powerful since it had armor ignore, and alloy plate being an uncommon resource made it painful grind to obtain for new players. Power creep (and Damage 2.0) have resulted in stat increases like this across the board, because anti-nerf QQers won't allow one weapon to be sacrificed for the good of all other weapons.This creates more work for the devs, which is probably why it takes so long for them to get around to buffing guns that need it. When one weapon becomes the standard that all other weapons are held to, there is no balance. The entire point of Damage 2.0, in fact, was to make every weapon that wasn't Soma/Brakk or had Serrated Blade/Armor-ignore/Armor-Piercing (all different things) viable. And it did. 

 

Though, really it feels like completely separate people come up with these numbers. The Boltor Prime and Marelok came out with their bulldozing stats, while Glaxion, Attica, Akzani came out (the first two were fixed) with very underwhelming stats. It's like they're playing different builds of the game.

 

Nerfs to powerful guns have happened and were done pretty well. The Brakk's falloff is exactly what it needed, the Straith got its crit chance almost halved and damage reduced by 40, and explosive weapons got their ammo nerf (notice how no one's complaining about ammo nerf anymore?). And these weapons are still very powerful. Given the past, I'm pretty confident a Boltor Prime nerf is in the works and not just an MR restriction.

 

Power Creep is bad because it feeds an endless cycle of weapons being released that are too powerful and thus destroying loadout diversity (which makes the game boring), which requires all the other weapons to be buffed and at least optional, which results in trivialized enemies and challenges (where we are now), which requires more implentations artificial difficulty (what we are seeing with Gate Crash), because it's a lot of work to overhaul the way all enemies behave; which in turn results in the community asking either for more buffs or "buffed out of the box" weapons, and it starts all over again.

 

The Boltor Prime is the most egregious form of Power Creep yet, and for a measly 40p, any new player can grab one and never need another weapon in the game, ever (probably).

 

This is a waste of DE(Ltd)'s time and destroys our (the players') fun with the game. 

[Deccode]

It doesn't "destroy" my fun.

[Vanadium]

Destroys mine.

[Deccode]

Destroys mine.

And that makes your argument valid?

Edited September 22, 2014 by Deccode

[marelooke]

Making Primes tradeable was a big mistake. OP is just experiencing some of the (arguably predictable) fallout of that terribad decision.

 

It destroyed the value of Primes as status weapon and with Primes becoming simply "better" instead of "different" from their regular counterpart it is now destroying the game's entire progression. Because what are you going to do in a loot-em-up when you can just buy the best loot straight out of the gate?

[Vanadium]

And that's makes your argument valid?

 

All argument is derived from subjective experience. So, yeah it does.

 

Better question, is a one sentence statement a counter-argument (yeah it is, given what I just said, but it's not very convincing)?

 

If you want to really argue my point (instead of not even half-assed), then do it. If you want to troll me, then do it. What you're doing is neither.

Edited September 22, 2014 by Go4tfi5h

[MirageKnight]

You're sure are getting defensive. Almost suggests a dependence on Boltor Prime.

 

Assuming a bit much aren't we? A quick look at my stats would show I use other weapons far more than Boltor Prime. 

 

I wasn't defending the weapon, but rather 1. questioning the validity of someone's argument / statement and 2. asking a legitimate question as to what is the big deal with Boltor Prime being as powerful as it is now as this is a PvE game - to which I have yet to hear a sound argument saying why it IS a big deal.

 

You're also ignoring the fact that I specifically stated that I was in favor in upping a requirement to using the Boltor Prime. If I was truly defending the weapon, then I'd never have suggested a change at all.

 

I'm going to say the same thing to you I said to someone else here. Claiming a subjective opinion to be fact is a lousy way to try and prove a point. It's weak and false way to argue, as is relying on simple statements. You have a point? You want to convince people that you're right? You're going to have to do way better. Use true premises that support a conclusion that logically follows from those premises. Back up your points. Be clear, reasonable and true.

 

Otherwise, any point you make is going to be unconvincing.

[(PSN)KestralSylver]

That said, this new generation of gamers confounds me. I often hear the "things are to easy" argument and my counter to that is always "dont use the best stuff and it'll give you more challenge". They would rather be bored then challenge themselves though. I just dont get it.

I seriously don't understand it either. New gamers are so obsessed with power above fun. Being overpowered is fun for a limited amount of time, that's the reason you can only use cheat codes temporarily in many games. If you could just put in cheat codes and beat the game it would take all the fun out of it. To me, challenge is more fun than having a bullet hose that kills enemies in two hits. Granted, using underpowered weapons isn't much fun, but at least you can say you've accomplished something when you complete a tough mission with underpowered (or even balanced) gear.

Edited September 22, 2014 by (PS4)KestralSylver

[Vanadium]

-snip-

 

I claimed plenty of facts through experience (the story of Vanilla Boltor), so I don't know what you're getting at there. If you want "hard numerical evidence":

 

Taken from DPSFrame: Using their standard build formula for each weapon

 

1) Boltor Prime 16964 DPS

2) Latron Prime 13838 DPS

3) Soma 13028 DPS

 

etc etc it just goes from downhill from there. Boltor Prime according to DPSFrame and the majority of the community agrees that the BP is the strongest in terms of DPS

 

In that case, what do you think is the strongest weapon if not the BP?

 

 

And some more, from here:

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/244344-prime-weapons-some-consistency-would-be-nice/

 

So, I decided to take a look at the various prime weapons damage increases to see exactly how much stronger they are compared to their standard counterparts. Needless to say I honestly don't understand the logic with Prime weapons (excuse any inaccuracies, I had to use the wiki for some of these):

 

Weapon  Normal dmg   Prime dmg    Dmg Increase

 

Boar                96               117                 +22% 

Boltor              25                55                +120%

Braton             20                25                  +25%

Burston           30                39                  +30%

Latron             55                85                  +55%

Paris               75              100                   +30%

Akbronco      105              105                     +0%

Bronco          105              140                   +34%

Lato                12                21                   +75%

Lex                  70               85                   +21%

Sicarus           30                32                     +6%

Ankyros          30                38                   +27%

Fang              30                36                    +20%

Glaive          105              105                      +0%

Orthos           50                65                    +30%

Skana            32                34                      +6%

 

 

Which don't for a second take into account the Boltor Prime's incredible usability and that it's not limited by range, at least not in the context of Warframe's tile sizes. I'm talking purely from experience:

 

From my experience as a player who has played this game for a year and a half, the Boltor Prime is the most egregious case of power creep I have seen so far and could (and I mean that in the sense that the possibility is simply there) single-handedly restart and perpetuate a self-destructive cycle for the game that has been going on for almost a year.

 

That is all I said. Seriously. It took a while in my post, because I am extrapolating on every part to make sure people get it. And yeah, that sounds like exaggeration, but I've been watching it slowly happen for almost a year now. Power Creep is very real, and the Boltor Prime is strong evidence of it.

 

MR-locking the weapon keeps it out of the hands of new players, but it doesn't address the fact that when they get to MRwhatever, they're still probably going to see Boltor Prime as the end-all solution to Warframe's content. That's how I look at, that's what it feels like 1 hr into a T3/4.

 

Like a handful of OP weapons from days of Warframe yore, the Boltor Prime is in need of a nerf. These changes were good for the game as a whole. In a game of 140+ weapons to choose from, weapon balance is extremely important to the game's health, since the weapons you use are one of the major defining experiences of the game for a player.

 

That's the other thing I said.

 

You can't just invalidate someone's argument by saying "give me the facts" if the argument is derived from experience. To shorten, you can't just invalidate someone else's experience.

 

 

It's clearly NOT obvious to everyone. Please don't assume too much about the rest of us as not all of us are as into the game as you seem to be. Ok?

 

This is a threatened response. You were being defensive. Especially given how off-handed/non-inflammatory Archistopheles' statement was:

 

Because it's stronger than the automatic rifles made before it. I thought that was a given...

 

It's a given. You don't even have to look at the numbers. You don't even have to look at the stack of similar threads. Just go find a game with someone using Boltor Prime and watch the effortless rekage.

Edited September 22, 2014 by Go4tfi5h

[Deccode]

All argument is derived from subjective experience. So, yeah it does.

 

Better question, is a one sentence statement a counter-argument (yeah it is, given what I just said, but it's not very convincing)?

 

If you want to really argue my point (instead of not even half-assed), then do it. If you want to troll me, then do it. What you're doing is neither.

It's still invalid, and how do I argue with a person that is talking on hehalf of the whole community, including me?

[(PSN)KestralSylver]

It's still invalid, and how do I argue with a person that is talking on hehalf of the whole community, including me?

Do so without arguing on behalf of the community. Only ever represent yourself and those whom you've personally encountered.

[Deccode]

Do so without arguing on behalf of the community. Only ever represent yourself and those whom you've personally encountered.

But he is already representing me.

[Vanadium]

But he is already representing me.

 

Do you mean this?

 

 

This is a waste of DE(Ltd)'s time and destroys our (the players') fun with the game. 

 

Because, y'know, now you're trying to invalidate my argument by laser-focusing on a dependent clause I typed. There are a bunch of Fallacies of logic/critical thinking/whatever and I'm pretty sure this falls into one of them (not looking it up).

 

I mean, I guess you like an unbalanced game. You're not the crowd I'm trying to convince. Really, I'm trying to convince some devs on some off-chance they make it thiiiiis far into the thread, but I'm pretty sure they've gotten the picture a while ago and are busy with cooler things, like Archwing.

 

And why are you treating this thread like an IM? You're only doing OP a favor by keeping it bumped.

 

Edited September 22, 2014 by Go4tfi5h

[Liverslices]

Just raise its mastery requirement.

Giving one of the top-tier weapons a Mastery Rank requirement of 0? That is a gigantic flaw that must be rectified.

A mastery rank requirement of 7 would be reasonable to make sure that new players go through enough weapons to properly earn the right to wield Boltor Prime.

this... Give this man all the upvotes