Shields Are Bad.

[Dwarfstar]

 

 

They are. So long as Player 1 was smart enough to equip a certain mod that prevents his low health pool from killing him.

So, shields aren't working properly, and we need super-rare mod to make them functional.

 

Yes, that.

 

I've literally never used Vigor/Redirection because I don't see the point in either. Shield Recharge rate is hardly useful either.

 

I already agreed that OP is right on shields being bad. I just don't think they matter. I rarely die on my newer Xbox One profile which doesn't have QT, and I don't even use any defense oriented mods whatsoever on there. So I'll repeat my main point that I've already stated.

 

Shields are fine.

 

 

Shields are bad, so I don't use them, but they're fine.

 

Got it.

 

I think what you mean is "I am fine not using shields" not that "Shields are fine."

 

And yes, shields being suboptimal is something you can work around. But that's the thing. Shield being suboptimal is something you *have* to work around!

 

But that is the point, some frames are balanced with heavy shield use in mind. So either shields need to be better, or those frames need an EHP rebalance for damage 2.0.

Edited October 6, 2014 by Dwarfstar

[(PSN)KestralSylver]

 

 

 

-snip-

-snippity-

 

-snip-

 

-snap-

Whoa, there's an option for not having shields outside of Nightmare missions? Color me impressed. I thought they were automatically attached by default. Last I checked, I use shields in every single match I play. What I don't use is their superfluous mods.

 

The base shields do their job just fine (even with no other defense mods on). I get hit a few times and hear the depletion noise, then proceed to dodge and block until they come back up. Rinse, repeat. When procced with slash, run/dodge away from enemies until the effect ends.

 

You want shields to be a proc blocker, when there's no necessity for them to be. Especially not if it affects the enemy shields. If I can manage to shred through their shields, chances are that slash proc won't matter by the time I'm ripping through their health since they'll already be dead by the time it starts dealing damage. But if the enemy has a strong shield, I can bypass it by forcing a slash proc, thus cutting my work massively. Also, if shields become proc blockers, how are electricity and magnetic damage even supposed to proc at all?

Edited October 6, 2014 by (PS4)KestralSylver

[Keiiken]

 

 

Health can regenerate just fine if you want it to.

 

Not at the rate shields regen.

 

It would be overpowered as hell if they could. They have shields.

 

 

This is true, it would be OP.

The point I meant to make is that using a rejuv aura, even four of them only helps with papercuts.

[Naftal]

 

 

 

Health can regenerate just fine if you want it to.

 

Not at the rate shields regen.

 

It would be overpowered as hell if they could. They have shields.

 

 

This is true, it would be OP.

The point I meant to make is that using a rejuv aura, even four of them only helps with papercuts.

 

You can use life strike and get full hp with one strike.

[Keiiken]

 

 

 

 

Health can regenerate just fine if you want it to.

 

Not at the rate shields regen.

 

It would be overpowered as hell if they could. They have shields.

 

 

This is true, it would be OP.

The point I meant to make is that using a rejuv aura, even four of them only helps with papercuts.

 

You can use life strike and get full hp with one strike.

 

 

 

Thats a work around not a true solution. The underlying problem that shields are near useless still exists.

Also it doesn't work when you get downed by going around a corner into a toxic ancient you didn't see.

[Naftal]

Thats a work around not a true solution. The underlying problem that shields are near useless still exists.

Also it doesn't work when you get downed by going around a corner into a toxic ancient you didn't see.

Shields work fine for me for what they do. They're just extra layer of protection, not something to rely entirely.

 

Even if there wasn't any damage type that went through shields, I still would prefer vitality+rage+life strike, because it's much more effective than having slowly regenerating hp (shields).

 

And if I fail to see something and get downed because of that then it's my own fault.

[Noble_Cactus]

-snip-

All that equates to is that your title is indeed true. Shields are bad, but they're meant to be bad since they're, once again, just a buffer to protect your health. It'd be different if you could die from a depleted shield but you can't. For those frames you mentioned that rely on shields, I recommend just using Quick Thinking and Flow in tandem. You shouldn't have any issues from slash procs anymore.

Stop looking at health and shields like they are equals, they aren't nor should they be. Guess that is just my opinion though.

Mods like Quick Thinking + Flow shouldn't make up for a frame's weaknesses. That's poor design. They should instead offer alternative playstyles for frames with high shields/low health, and they shouldn't patch up faulty design.

Heck, I don't even run any survivability mods on all but my tankiest frames because after a certain point, you are going to get 1-2 shotted without quick moving/good positioning/Trinity. But I'd like to see my shields count for a little more on my frames who do have high base shields like Frost and co. (Even if you're almost always bubbling with Frost, a little backup protection doesn't hurt).

I also find it strange that, as far as I can tell, every frame shares the same base shield regen rate and regen delay. I think this should vary by frame.

Edited October 6, 2014 by Noble_Cactus

[Phatose]

Thats a work around not a true solution. The underlying problem that shields are near useless still exists.

Also it doesn't work when you get downed by going around a corner into a toxic ancient you didn't see.

 

 

So, you run no-shield nightmare mode all the time and don't notice a difference?  If so, I'm impressed.

 

I think this is a major exaggeration though.  There is a world of difference between "Can't protect you against everything" and "Near useless".  There's an even bigger difference between "Near useless" and "Protects you very well against everything except for 2 procs".

[Azawarau]

Shields are useless but not for the reason you bring up

 

HP feels like it has more advantages to it

 

Id love to see shields in higher numbers and with certain advantages like avoiding specific procs or immunity to critical hits

[Eyeless]

Double edged sword says "but wait, enemy shields aren't immune to procs either! Waowhaoooaoaooooaoo!!"

 

Shields are fine.

 

The entire point of a slash proc (be it for you or an enemy) is to bypass shields and force DoT. Take that away and you've made the most common melee proc borderline useless.

 

You're talking about Warframe as if it's supposed to be 'balanced' between a single Frame and a single enemy unit. It's a PvE game with the focus being on your pseudo warrior god/goddess laying waste to hordes of steadily more challenging enemies. 

 

The way the game plays now, there's absolutely no reason our shielding should work exactly as the enemies, for both lore reasons and from a sensible perspective.

Warframes are supposed to be these badass combat suits from a long lost ancient era that both factions have been struggling to emulate. Our technology in every other regard has proven superior to these factions when it comes to combat, in terms of fire-power and our power to incapacitate the hordes in numerous ways on a whim. 

 

When living out some form of power fantasy, comparing Player Stats to Enemy Stats is Apples to Oranges. 

 

 

Shields are useless but not for the reason you bring up

 

HP feels like it has more advantages to it

 

Id love to see shields in higher numbers and with certain advantages like avoiding specific procs or immunity to critical hits

 

Erm...they're useless for exactly the reason he talked about in the original post. Disagreeing just to disagree or...? 

 

This is what he was getting at. Shields should factor into how we're effected by these damage types and serve as more than just glorified tissue paper. 

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

My suggestion: Add a mod that gives back 15/30/45/60/75% damage lost to slash damage when the enemy is killed. Call it "Bloody Revenge" or something. Frames that wouldn't benefit much, like Valkyr or Zephyr, wouldn't have at use it, while frames like Mag could.

[Rekkou]

There are simpler solution, use both redirection and vitality. My Mag not only has redirection, but also vitality and vigor. And she can easily survive bleed procs with 400+ health left.

[Eyeless]

My suggestion: Add a mod that gives back 15/30/45/60/75% damage lost to slash damage when the enemy is killed. Call it "Bloody Revenge" or something. Frames that wouldn't benefit much, like Valkyr or Zephyr, wouldn't have at use it, while frames like Mag could.

 

We really don't need anymore unused bandaid mods. We need actual mechanics woven into the game, rather than making more examples of Handspring.

[Azawarau]

 

Double edged sword says "but wait, enemy shields aren't immune to procs either! Waowhaoooaoaooooaoo!!"

 

Shields are fine.

 

The entire point of a slash proc (be it for you or an enemy) is to bypass shields and force DoT. Take that away and you've made the most common melee proc borderline useless.

 

You're talking about Warframe as if it's supposed to be 'balanced' between a single Frame and a single enemy unit. It's a PvE game with the focus being on your pseudo warrior god/goddess laying waste to hordes of steadily more challenging enemies. 

 

The way the game plays now, there's absolutely no reason our shielding should work exactly as the enemies, for both lore reasons and from a sensible perspective.

Warframes are supposed to be these badass combat suits from a long lost ancient era that both factions have been struggling to emulate. Our technology in every other regard has proven superior to these factions when it comes to combat, in terms of fire-power and our power to incapacitate the hordes in numerous ways on a whim. 

 

When living out some form of power fantasy, comparing Player Stats to Enemy Stats is Apples to Oranges. 

 

 

Shields are useless but not for the reason you bring up

 

HP feels like it has more advantages to it

 

Id love to see shields in higher numbers and with certain advantages like avoiding specific procs or immunity to critical hits

 

Erm...they're useless for exactly the reason he talked about in the original post. Disagreeing just to disagree or...? 

 

This is what he was getting at. Shields should factor into how we're effected by these damage types and serve as more than just glorified tissue paper. 

 

When i say proc resistance im not talking toxic

 

Viral and cold and such i had in mind. Slash and toxic procs are fine as they are

 

The only frame thats really biased towards shield use is mag (polarize). The rest can get away with using HP effectively one way or another (Love my Vitality based Vauban)

 

There are also ways to avoid slash procs like bringing a healer or healing items or certain powers that grant invi frames or just avoiding getting hit or quick thinking or just vitality because you know some procs pass shields

 

Alot of what OP is saying is just proc bypassing shield QQ and he totally fails to mention that you can use both vitality and redirection in his reasoning of why shields are so bad

 

I agree shields are bad but this is a total QQ thread in disguise

Edited October 7, 2014 by Azawarau

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

 

My suggestion: Add a mod that gives back 15/30/45/60/75% damage lost to slash damage when the enemy is killed. Call it "Bloody Revenge" or something. Frames that wouldn't benefit much, like Valkyr or Zephyr, wouldn't have at use it, while frames like Mag could.

 

We really don't need anymore unused bandaid mods. We need actual mechanics woven into the game, rather than making more examples of Handspring.

 

 

I considered weaving it into the core gameplay, but decided it was something so many people would find unnecessary (as the above posts show) it might be better as an optional augmentation.

 

Handspring can be used by every single frame, and there are barely any frames that are helped less by it than others (maybe Rhino with Iron Skin). Also, it looks like a natural part of gameplay.

 

Bloody Revenge would be an awkward mechanic to explain to a new player, and bizzarre as a part of the basic skillset. Many players would find it redundant when they have Rejuvenation equipped, but for the Mags and Embers of the world such a mod may be helpful. The responses in this thread seem to suggest it wouldn't be an unused mod at all.

 

If you want to suggest removing slash damage for enemies, that's fine. But since people seem to disagree about its importance, I decided to offer a solution using an existing system.

[Lost_Cartographer]

I can't remember the last time I was dropped by bleed, and I usually run Excalibur with just Vigor equipped as his only passive defense.  Seekers and ballistae usually put me down because they hit so darn hard.  Troopers, Scorches, Detron Crewman come in as a close second if I get reckless.  Lancers, standard crewman, and MOAs though?  Fodder.  They're designed to simply plink away with the occasional bleed proc knicking away 2-5 health per tick.

 

Of course, I never liked getting hit, so I abuse cover instead of just standing in the open and soaking hits and counting on a bloated shield or racing around at top speed believing it actually helps where ray scan Grineer weaponry is concerned (pro-tip: it doesn't, only distance matters in the open.)  That's what some of these pass-through procs are meant to accomplish.  A frame with very high shield strength is just too tanky overall otherwise because yeah... why put on a health mod if NOTHING can bypass the shield?  Just don't let the shield reach 0.

 

My setup lately has been vigor, constitution, fortitude, sure footed, and will include handspring if I ever get it.  I also run master thief because near every locker will toss a health orb at a Tenno (this mod isn't so useful for survival/defense, so I replace it with a different mod appropriate to the mode,) and enemy sense, since knowing about a hostile around a corner is even more vital than simply having the means to take a hit from that hostile.  I tend to run rejuvenation as my Aura.  3 hp per second translates to 400 health in a little over two minutes.  Generally speaking, if I'm actually taking enough hits and losing my shield often enough that the regeneration IS NOT outpacing the damage plowing through my HP, I'm either making a lot of bad choices or finally in over my head (late survival or really screwing up a defense.)  Though yeah, generally rejuv is better for recovering from light wounds, not a major blow, generally.

 

If nothing else, a word to the wise:  utility NEVER goes out of date, which is why they're not immediately as apparently powerful as defense mods like redirection or vitality, but why a skill like radial blind is what makes (soon: made) Excalibur top tier.  If knockdown is getting you down, invest in anti-knockdown mods.  They're not band aids any more than vitality or redirection is.  However, at least anti-knockdown band aids don't have an expiration date.

[(PSN)Veg1ta]

So shields are bad are they? completely useless you said, go play pluto no shield nightmares with a frame like ember and come back and tell us shields are useless. If you had no shield everytime u got shot would be like a bleed proc, ridiculous statement and argument.

Edited October 7, 2014 by (PS4)Veg1ta

[Eyeless]

 

When i say proc resistance im not talking toxic

 

 

Viral and cold and such i had in mind. Slash and toxic procs are fine as they are

 

The only frame thats really biased towards shield use is mag (polarize). The rest can get away with using HP effectively one way or another (Love my Vitality based Vauban)

 

There are also ways to avoid slash procs like bringing a healer or healing items or certain powers that grant invi frames or just avoiding getting hit or quick thinking or just vitality because you know some procs pass shields

 

Alot of what OP is saying is just proc bypassing shield QQ and he totally fails to mention that you can use both vitality and redirection in his reasoning of why shields are so bad

 

I agree shields are bad but this is a total QQ thread in disguise

 

 

Er...I never specified which proc shields should factor in, but I think the way they're handled right now is pretty ridiculous at later levels. Toxic Ancients will one shot a frame with 200 health or less at later level Survivals where getting touched by them is more or less a certainty.

 

Phobos Survivals are simply hell because it's simply bleed procs everywhere, and the damage done by the bleed and the toxic scales to ridiculous degrees later on that makes playing squishier frames feel suicidal without being able to abuse AoE abilities constantly just so you don't get grazed. 

 

Whether you use Vitality or Redirection here is redundant. Especially Redirection, as a lot of the procs enemies can spring on you eat through the shields or bypass them entirely at higher levels, making them redundant, which was his entire point. These shield bypassing procs at later levels completely ignore your shields and easily melt through your 740 health.

 

These two mods don't make late-game proccing any less of an issue when it comes to shields, is the point, and I fail to see how not mentioning them completely invalidates his stance on the issue of Shields.

 

People should be able to play the frame they play, and these kinds of missions shouldn't require someone to potentially play an Oberon or Trinity that they don't enjoy running, not that they'd be quick enough in plenty of instances. 

 

So in the end, Life Strike, Quick Thinking, 'Git Gud', Healer Frames, these are not real solutions to the underlying problem that at mediumish to higher levels, the enemy procs get way out of control for at least two factions and this makes shields far less useful than they ought to be. 

 

You can only go with the 'If it ain't broke, don't fix it.' logic for so long... 

 

 

I considered weaving it into the core gameplay, but decided it was something so many people would find unnecessary (as the above posts show) it might be better as an optional augmentation.

 

Handspring can be used by every single frame, and there are barely any frames that are helped less by it than others (maybe Rhino with Iron Skin). Also, it looks like a natural part of gameplay.

 

Bloody Revenge would be an awkward mechanic to explain to a new player, and bizzarre as a part of the basic skillset. Many players would find it redundant when they have Rejuvenation equipped, but for the Mags and Embers of the world such a mod may be helpful. The responses in this thread seem to suggest it wouldn't be an unused mod at all.

 

If you want to suggest removing slash damage for enemies, that's fine. But since people seem to disagree about its importance, I decided to offer a solution using an existing system.

 

 

The above posters seem to be against this just for the sake of being against it. "It's not broken, stop crying!"  

 

I follow your logic with your own suggested mod, however I don't feel the same way about the debate over Handspring, which has remained a sore spot for me and quite a few others within the forum community. 

 

My own reasoning as to why

The issue with the perceived bandaids altogether is that a lot of them feel like they should have already been implemented as a mechanic you can learn, or a passive on select frames (Frost getting immunity to ice levels, Ember shouldn't take damage from fire in the first place, etc) rather than something you may or may not get dropped into your inventory only to find you're gimping your overall performance by having it equipped. 

 

That's always the sore issue with the listed bandaid mods, and so whenever something that sounds like another one is proposed, I can't help but have a flag go off in my mind.

 

Honestly, I simply share the same view as the OP in this thread. Shields should give us something to fend off the procs. When every enemy has several different ways to bypass our shields from all directions in the blink of an eye, it makes shields feel entirely redundant and I can't help but question why we have them when they can't do their job. 

 

Hitscan weaponry and a random Toxic Ancient from around the corner instantly eating your health 30 minutes into a Survival in certain nodes/areas just feels cheap and honestly like a lazy way to go about increasing the difficulty. 

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

I considered weaving it into the core gameplay, but decided it was something so many people would find unnecessary (as the above posts show) it might be better as an optional augmentation.

 

Handspring can be used by every single frame, and there are barely any frames that are helped less by it than others (maybe Rhino with Iron Skin). Also, it looks like a natural part of gameplay.

 

Bloody Revenge would be an awkward mechanic to explain to a new player, and bizzarre as a part of the basic skillset. Many players would find it redundant when they have Rejuvenation equipped, but for the Mags and Embers of the world such a mod may be helpful. The responses in this thread seem to suggest it wouldn't be an unused mod at all.

 

If you want to suggest removing slash damage for enemies, that's fine. But since people seem to disagree about its importance, I decided to offer a solution using an existing system.

 

 

The above posters seem to be against this just for the sake of being against it. "It's not broken, stop crying!"  

 

I follow your logic with your own suggested mod, however I don't feel the same way about the debate over Handspring, which has remained a sore spot for me and quite a few others within the forum community. 

 

My own reasoning as to why

The issue with the perceived bandaids altogether is that a lot of them feel like they should have already been implemented as a mechanic you can learn, or a passive on select frames (Frost getting immunity to ice levels, Ember shouldn't take damage from fire in the first place, etc) rather than something you may or may not get dropped into your inventory only to find you're gimping your overall performance by having it equipped. 

 

That's always the sore issue with the listed bandaid mods, and so whenever something that sounds like another one is proposed, I can't help but have a flag go off in my mind.

 

Honestly, I simply share the same view as the OP in this thread. Shields should give us something to fend off the procs. When every enemy has several different ways to bypass our shields from all directions in the blink of an eye, it makes shields feel entirely redundant and I can't help but question why we have them when they can't do their job. 

 

Hitscan weaponry and a random Toxic Ancient from around the corner instantly eating your health 30 minutes into a Survival in certain nodes/areas just feels cheap and honestly like a lazy way to go about increasing the difficulty. 

 

 

I'm not against removing it; I've had to be that Ember that had to watch 200 HP tick away with 90% of my shields still intact. I just thought I'd offer another suggestion that I thought might appeal to some people as a good balance between what people like you and the OP would want and what people like Azarawau think would be best.

 

In the same vein of offering other suggestions, maybe the slash proc could work as a multiplier of % shields remaining? So if you somehow had 100% shields you'd take no slash damage. If you had 90% shields you'd take 10% of the normal slash damage amount, 50% shields would cause 50% slash damage taken, etc.

[xFayt]

As a Loki Prime that runs with no-health-no-shields, taking damage, regardless if it's health or shields was never a problem.  I run Excal Prime with just a maxed Vigor for health and shields, even then, it still wasn't a problem.  Hell, my Flaunting Pink Rhino™ has no problems with health or shields and I don't use iron skin unless I'm reviving or death-by-proc is about to happen, which happens very rarely.

 

Rather than worrying about whether or not shields do their job, how about not getting hit?  On average, most warframes will about roughly 450-550 shields and health, give or take 50-150.  If you're still losing health because you lost shields, find cover.  If you're losing health because proc, find cover.  If you're about to be down because of the insane Grineer Slash proc, then you're better off using some sort of CC and Life Strike.

Edited October 7, 2014 by xFayt

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

As a Loki Prime that runs with no-health-no-shields, taking damage, regardless if it's health or shields was never a problem.  I run Excal Prime with just a maxed Vigor for health and shields, even then, it still wasn't a problem.  Hell, my Flaunting Pink Rhino™ has no problems with health or shields and I don't use iron skin unless I'm reviving or death-by-proc is about to happen, which happens very rarely.

 

Rather than worrying about whether or not shields do their job, how about not getting hit?  On average, most warframes will about roughly 450-550 shields and health, give or take 50-150.  If you're still losing health because you lost shields, find cover.  If you're losing health because proc, find cover.  If you're about to be down because of the insane Grineer Slash proc, then you're better off using some sort of CC and Life Strike.

 

Try being a frame like Ember or Mag that, by virtue of its abilities, asks you to get into the thick of the action without getting scratched.

[Eyeless]

 

I'm not against removing it; I've had to be that Ember that had to watch 200 HP tick away with 90% of my shields still intact. I just thought I'd offer another suggestion that I thought might appeal to some people as a good balance between what people like you and the OP would want and what people like Azarawau think would be best.

 

In the same vein of offering other suggestions, maybe the slash proc could work as a multiplier of % shields remaining? So if you somehow had 100% shields you'd take no slash damage. If you had 90% shields you'd take 10% of the normal slash damage amount, 50% shields would cause 50% slash damage taken, etc.

 

 

You know what, I like that idea quite a bit. You sir are onto something here. It'd have to be tweaked though. Maybe once shields went past a certain number as a threshold, rather than a raw percentage? This way frames with way higher shield numbers would reap some serious benefits from it yeah? 

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

 

 

I'm not against removing it; I've had to be that Ember that had to watch 200 HP tick away with 90% of my shields still intact. I just thought I'd offer another suggestion that I thought might appeal to some people as a good balance between what people like you and the OP would want and what people like Azarawau think would be best.

 

In the same vein of offering other suggestions, maybe the slash proc could work as a multiplier of % shields remaining? So if you somehow had 100% shields you'd take no slash damage. If you had 90% shields you'd take 10% of the normal slash damage amount, 50% shields would cause 50% slash damage taken, etc.

 

 

You know what, I like that idea quite a bit. You sir are onto something here. It'd have to be tweaked though. Maybe once shields went past a certain number as a threshold, rather than a raw percentage? This way frames with way higher shield numbers would reap some serious benefits from it yeah? 

 

 

Ok, let's try this: Shields over 1K means no slash damage taken. Then from there it could be percentage based with 900 shield meaning 90% reduction, 800 meaning 80% etc.

[(PSN)Veg1ta]

Big deal you got a proc that bypassed ur shield and killed you, get a team mate to revive you thats what teamwork is about, only way i see this as a problem is solo.

Edited October 7, 2014 by (PS4)Veg1ta

[StinkyPygmy]

??? Shields are bad?

News to me.

Slash procs are practically negligible with the exception of eviserators which are easy to avoid.

Poison is also really a big threat as far as toxic ancients or toxic exermis are concerned (say hello to antitoxin). Mutalist ospreys are easy to avoid and since their nerf even loki can stand in a cloud of poison and not care too much.

 

Shield ignoring dmg can be a threat occasionally but it definitely doesn't make shields bad.

Sorry OP. I don't get it. I think removing the draw backs of low health frames (which typically have powerful abilities to compensate) would make players even more OP then we currently are.

Edited October 7, 2014 by StinkyPygmy