Shields Are Bad.

[Naftal]

I knowwwwww.  That's the poiiiiint.  Shields are worse than heallllth.

They work fine against all other factions though. They are worse than health obviously, but you don't die if you have 0 shields, so they don't need to be stronger or as strong...

Both attacks are a Charger dealing 234 damage with one claw swipe, at level 17.  The damage is done to shields which don't take armor into account, and Slash damage is neutral to shields so we can tell that the base damage of the attack was 234.  Higher-level Chargers reach and surpass the example 334 damage easily.

But that isn't poison damage...?

[(PSN)MrNishi]

@ Rydian

This will need to edited on the wiki as well, for Ancient Disrupters:

Trivia

The heavy/right-arm attack of Ancient Disrupters used to drain shields and energy completely with every hit - this was reduced to Magnetic damage that reduces shields and drains all energy as of Update 11.

Why can Ancients just have Magnetic Proc, but Ospreys's Toxin Cloud cannot be the considered the same same as the Toxin Cloud of a Gas Proc? If Ancient Disrupters are only dealing Magnetic Proc and not Magnetic Damage. (Wouldn't that be Oprey's dealing Toxin Cloud but no initial Gas damage?)

I guess we just see these differently.

Back to the topic - the OP was against any more 'Band Aid' mods or workarounds, but I can only see mods as being an improvement to enhance shields without creating a large imbalance.

Perhaps a Shield Aura ( D-polarity) that applies Health bypassing damage to shields. Could be max of 24% for an individual and then a full cell would be at 96%. Or just a normal mod, but since D-polarity or Vazarin Aura's are lacking in options. Or could just be Damage Mitigation percentage while Shields are active.

Edited October 17, 2014 by (PS4)MrNishi

[StinkyPygmy]

The issue I have with mods that negate shield bypassing dmg or reduce it while directly tied to shield % is that we already have mods that reduce said dmg. Antitoxin and steel fiber both affect toxin dmg and steel fiber for slash. I understand that steelfiber is less affective on most frames and down right pointless on some, but a rework of the armor values and mechanics has been a suggested idea by the community for a while now. Antitoxin is equally effective on all frames and slash dmg is normally not enough of a threat to even matter much to low armor/health frames. So steel fiber isn't essential in that regard.

 

Also, considering recent info from the Dev stream and the addition of two more mod slots with the removal of abilities as mods, there is literally no reason for you to not have vitality or antitoxin on a frame when taking on the infested if you have  a lot of trouble with toxin dmg.

Edited October 18, 2014 by StinkyPygmy

[Azawarau]

 

I still just dont see an issue

 

Pathetic damage at lvl 36 against a soft frame

 

If anything they need a buff

[fatpig84]

 

I still just dont see an issue

 

Pathetic damage at lvl 36 against a soft frame

 

If anything they need a buff

 

Poor fella looks confused XD

[StinkyPygmy]

Poor fella looks confused XD

He's trying so hard as well. I feel kind of sorry for the little guy.

[Marthrym]

 

I still just dont see an issue

 

Pathetic damage at lvl 36 against a soft frame

 

If anything they need a buff

Man they used to be so much better... The toxic proc does more damage than the poison cloud itself now...

Also.. Only 2 damage tics now...^^'

[Azawarau]

Man they used to be so much better... The toxic proc does more damage than the poison cloud itself now...

Also.. Only 2 damage tics now...^^'

This is what happens when people complaint too much

 

I honestly cant believe there are still complaints about this

[StinkyPygmy]

This is what happens when people complaint too much

 

I honestly cant believe there are still complaints about this

I remember on release you actually had a reason to avoid them even with a tanky frame. 

Now you can effectively just stand in the cloud with loki and no vitality without a care in the world.

[(PSN)MrNishi]

The issue I have with mods that negate shield bypassing dmg or reduce it while directly tied to shield % is that we already have mods that reduce said dmg. Antitoxin and steel fiber both affect toxin dmg and steel fiber for slash. I understand that steelfiber is less affective on most frames and down right pointless on some, but a rework of the armor values and mechanics has been a suggested idea by the community for a while now. Antitoxin is equally effective on all frames and slash dmg is normally not enough of a threat to even matter much to low armor/health frames. So steel fiber isn't essential in that regard.

 

Also, considering recent info from the Dev stream and the addition of two more mod slots with the removal of abilities as mods, there is literally no reason for you to not have vitality or antitoxin on a frame when taking on the infested if you have  a lot of trouble with toxin dmg.

Steel Fiber does not protect against Slash Bleed Proc...

Bleed Proc ignores Armor - hurts Valkyr the same amount it hurts Non-Prime Nyx.

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Bleed

[Azawarau]

I remember on release you actually had a reason to avoid them even with a tanky frame. 

Now you can effectively just stand in the cloud with loki and no vitality without a care in the world.

For the damage dealt i dont think vitality is needed even...

[LGear]

Big deal you got a proc that bypassed ur shield and killed you, get a team mate to revive you thats what teamwork is about, only way i see this as a problem is solo.

 

As a solo player, I don't even see the problem for shields being the way they currently are. When running units like my Excalibur, the shields are a layer of protection that automatically regenerates, which for me and my cover-based shooting style makes entire encounters survivable since I can take one or two hits and have my shields regenerate to full. Slash and other procs are tactical considerations I have to keep in mind by instantly dispatching units that do rely on them (like Eviscerators), or taking cover so I don't get hit in the first place.

 

 

Because the game is pretty clearly designed as something other than a cover shooter. What with, you know, the lack of cover system. If I wanted to play a cover shooter, I would play one designed from the ground up for cover. Like Mass Effect.

 

Basically, the game encourages extreme fast paced run and gun shooting by its design. "Hey, slow down and take cover, then pop your head out to snipe people like most other third person shooters out there" is not really a good answer.

 

Just because a game isn't designed from the ground up as a cover shooter doesn't mean the game can't be played in such a manner, I know I successfully do so in my Solo runs when I'm not using my Valkyr or I'm not in the mood for hack and slash action.

 

Cover-shooting mechanics are relatively new to games, and many FPS and TPS games have managed and emphasized the use of cover without such specific mechanics just fine. There's such a thing as peek (the angle at which you shoot in third person allows you to shoot around cover while being protected from enemy fire) and crouch to keep safe from enemy fire.

Edited October 18, 2014 by LGear

[Sabreracer]

I really don't see the problem.  There are very few frames that I use Vitality on and I don't use Rage/Quick Thinking combo at all.

 

And yet I'm rarely downed, sure certain procs go right through shields and if no-one has Regen then you may have to.....

 

I don't know?  Use a Health Restore maybe.  It's not as if they're expensive and even so it's a rare day that I use one anyway.

[Rydian]

Okay wow I'm dumb and misread my notices and didn't see this was replied to, my bad.

 

 

They work fine against all other factions though.

Working fine against most things but being horrifically weak to one specific thing is the problem.

 

Yes, they are supposed to have a weakness in general, but this one in particular is much, much weaker than anything else in the game (as I've showed with the charts and comparisons to damage types that are supposed to have the same or stronger effects).

 

But that isn't poison damage...?

It was to show base damage in general, to show that base damage of single attacks can easily reach those numbers.

 

I did actually try to get attacked by one while it was near a Toxic Ancient earlier in that run, but other players killed it (and the ancient) before it could hit me (since it was a lower-level mission with randoms) and after that I decided that letting it attack my shield should be better for showing raw damage since then armor wouldn't be taken into account.

 

I just uploaded the clip I took the gifs from here if you're curious.

 

 

 

 

@ Rydian

This will need to edited on the wiki as well, for Ancient Disrupters:
Trivia

The heavy/right-arm attack of Ancient Disrupters used to drain shields and energy completely with every hit - this was reduced to Magnetic damage that reduces shields and drains all energy as of Update 11.

Good catch, changed the wording on that one as well.

 

Why can Ancients just have Magnetic Proc, but Ospreys's Toxin Cloud cannot be the considered the same same as the Toxin Cloud of a Gas Proc?

Fartsprey Cloud:

- Not a status effect to players.

- Is a separate object from the monster.

- Inflicts damage, can inflict a Toxin status via that damage.

 

Ancient Disruption

- Is nothing but a status effect.

- Does not spawn a separate object.

- Does not have any possible tertiary effects.

 

I guess we just see these differently.

The differences are pretty technical and don't matter to most players, but when talking about game mechanics and making comparisons I think it's important.

 

Back to the topic - the OP was against any more 'Band Aid' mods or workarounds, but I can only see mods as being an improvement to enhance shields without creating a large imbalance.

Perhaps a Shield Aura ( D-polarity) that applies Health bypassing damage to shields. Could be max of 24% for an individual and then a full cell would be at 96%. Or just a normal mod, but since D-polarity or Vazarin Aura's are lacking in options. Or could just be Damage Mitigation percentage while Shields are active.

In my opinion if Toxin attacks hit shields and if shields gained a percentage of the normal player armor value (say, 1/3rd or so?) they'd do their job better without needing specific mods to be created.  Then players could focus on and mod up their strengths (recharge rate for one) without being crippled so easily by their weaknesses.

 

 

 

The issue I have with mods that negate shield bypassing dmg or reduce it while directly tied to shield % is that we already have mods that reduce said dmg. Antitoxin and steel fiber both affect toxin dmg and steel fiber for slash. I understand that steelfiber is less affective on most frames and down right pointless on some, but a rework of the armor values and mechanics has been a suggested idea by the community for a while now. Antitoxin is equally effective on all frames and slash dmg is normally not enough of a threat to even matter much to low armor/health frames. So steel fiber isn't essential in that regard.

 

Also, considering recent info from the Dev stream and the addition of two more mod slots with the removal of abilities as mods, there is literally no reason for you to not have vitality or antitoxin on a frame when taking on the infested if you have  a lot of trouble with toxin dmg.

We'll see how things roll because Warframe modding will definitely change with U15... but one note is that the slots being freed up is relative, depending on how many powers you had slotted normally.

 

If you used all four abilities than you gain 4 slots.

If you only used 3 abilities, you gain one slot.

If you only used two abilities, then you break even.

If you only used one ability, then you lose a slot.

 

 

 

I still just dont see an issue

 

Pathetic damage at lvl 36 against a soft frame

 

If anything they need a buff

I know how they work NOW.  I have told you that multiple times.

 

And I told you that they could stand to be buffed, especially if the changes I suggest were implemented.

 

Are you just skipping my longer posts because tl;dr or something?  Seriously, I know I sound like I'm being mean right now, but I've quoted YOU and responded to YOU specifically, multiple times, saying these things already.  And you act like I haven't said anything about it.

Edited October 21, 2014 by Rydian

[Naftal]

Working fine against most things but being horrifically weak to one specific thing is the problem.

 

Yes, they are supposed to have a weakness in general, but this one in particular is much, much weaker than anything else in the game (as I've showed with the charts and comparisons to damage types that are supposed to have the same or stronger effects).

 

It was to show base damage in general, to show that base damage of single attacks can easily reach those numbers.

 

I did actually try to get attacked by one while it was near a Toxic Ancient earlier in that run, but other players killed it (and the ancient) before it could hit me (since it was a lower-level mission with randoms) and after that I decided that letting it attack my shield should be better for showing raw damage since then armor wouldn't be taken into account.

 

I just uploaded the clip I took the gifs from here if you're curious.

So, you didn't even manage to get hit by a good amount of poison even on purpose?

 

Also, getting hit by a melee enemy means the player did a mistake. You can run away, parkour, stagger/knockdown with melee, CC with abilities, etc.

 

Care to make a video which shows the real problem you are talking about? I haven't met any huge shield bypassing effects in a while.

[Azawarau]

Okay wow I'm dumb and misread my notices and didn't see this was replied to, my bad.

 

 

Working fine against most things but being horrifically weak to one specific thing is the problem.

 

Yes, they are supposed to have a weakness in general, but this one in particular is much, much weaker than anything else in the game (as I've showed with the charts and comparisons to damage types that are supposed to have the same or stronger effects).

 

It was to show base damage in general, to show that base damage of single attacks can easily reach those numbers.

 

I did actually try to get attacked by one while it was near a Toxic Ancient earlier in that run, but other players killed it (and the ancient) before it could hit me (since it was a lower-level mission with randoms) and after that I decided that letting it attack my shield should be better for showing raw damage since then armor wouldn't be taken into account.

 

I just uploaded the clip I took the gifs from here if you're curious.

 

 

 

 

Good catch, changed the wording on that one as well.

 

Fartsprey Cloud:

- Not a status effect to players.

- Is a separate object from the monster.

- Inflicts damage, can inflict a Toxin status via that damage.

 

Ancient Disruption

- Is nothing but a status effect.

- Does not spawn a separate object.

- Does not have any possible tertiary effects.

 

The differences are pretty technical and don't matter to most players, but when talking about game mechanics and making comparisons I think it's important.

 

In my opinion if Toxin attacks hit shields and if shields gained a percentage of the normal player armor value (say, 1/3rd or so?) they'd do their job better without needing specific mods to be created.  Then players could focus on and mod up their strengths (recharge rate for one) without being crippled so easily by their weaknesses.

 

 

 

We'll see how things roll because Warframe modding will definitely change with U15... but one note is that the slots being freed up is relative, depending on how many powers you had slotted normally.

 

If you used all four abilities than you gain 4 slots.

If you only used 3 abilities, you gain one slot.

If you only used two abilities, then you break even.

If you only used one ability, then you lose a slot.

 

 

 

I know how they work NOW.  I have told you that multiple times.

 

And I told you that they could stand to be buffed, especially if the changes I suggest were implemented.

 

Are you just skipping my longer posts because tl;dr or something?  Seriously, I know I sound like I'm being mean right now, but I've quoted YOU and responded to YOU specifically, multiple times, saying these things already.  And you act like I haven't said anything about it.

Youre complaining about shield bypassing mechanics

 

Bleed procs that rarely happen and the faction that gets them most has low damage

 

Poison procs that come in low damage slow ticks or from being face up on a monster that attacks from farther than its poison goes

 

Whatever youre trying to get to just stop and get to it

[Renkai141]

Reading from the first topic and first page.
My response is, the larger the shield  it should reduce status chance from those weapons.

High shields, the less likely you'll have to get hit by slash procs or toxin. Sort of like a "resist"... then again it might just be flawed because we have

the mods like ice resist, toxin and fire resist mods specifics for that. Yet we don't have impact/slash/puncture (and or magnetic and others).

But, that's just my opinion.

[ARavenousPanda]

i think the problem here isnt that shields suck, or hp is amazing, its just that every fation has a way of screwing over shields. Magnetic proccing corpus, slash proccing grineer, toxic proccing infested. This means shield can often become redundant. How many enemies do you see proccing viral? none? hp isnt made redundant by procs, shields are. If that isnt a handicap i dont know what is.

[Pixyr]

If nothing could penetrate the shield (neither slash or toxic) then there would be no challenge. You simply rush the enemy and run away when your shields are low. EASY. And if you are dying of slash procs all the time then rethink your strategy. I do rush myself alot but i usually take the enemy out before they inflict to much damage to me. But if you cant do that then as i said ,build a new strategy. Especially if youre going solo!

[00zau]

The problem I have with slash procs and toxin damage is that health does not naturaly regenerate. Thus, on any non-healing frame (or quasi-healing like Nyx or DesecratemanNekros) and without a rejuv aura, you will eventually run out of health. Period. Even if Fartsprey's only deal a few damage at a time, if they hit you several times in a mission, combined with a couple of slash procs and/or toxin damage packets, you can easily die without ever running out of shields. Health orbs basically don't drop from enemies (as far as I can tell) and crate/locker drops can be hit or miss (and there are a finite number of them anyway).

 

If enemies can get a free shot to your non-regenerating health, then there's a problem. A very small passive regeneration, or a decent health orb drop rate from enemies (even a 1%  chance) would solve the problem as far as I'm concerned; giving every frame, regardless of loadout, a method to not die to attrition from unavoidable, non-regenerating damage.

[(PSN)MrNishi]

i think the problem here isnt that shields suck, or hp is amazing, its just that every fation has a way of screwing over shields. Magnetic proccing corpus, slash proccing grineer, toxic proccing infested. This means shield can often become redundant. How many enemies do you see proccing viral? none? hp isnt made redundant by procs, shields are. If that isnt a handicap i dont know what is.

Magnetic proccing Corpus????

Grineer Sensor doors Proc Magnetic and Ancient Disrupters had a forced Magnetic Proc (changed to 10% chance GU15)

Only Corpus I recall proc'ing Magnetic were possibly Eximus, but they are not normal units.

Both Grineer and Corpus can Proc slash to inflict Bleed status. (Corpus procs Bleed frequently if you stand there Tanking damage, rather than moving about.)

@ Rydian

Osprey Fartsprey Cloud -

You put does not inflict status and the put inflicts Toxin Proc status

(Gas does not Proc a Gas status - gas procs a Toxin status ....)

If an opposing player landed Gas on you the status symbol in red that you will see is the Toxin Proc. Same Toxin skull+Crossbones symbol applied by Toxin cloud or straight poison damage proc'ing. If you walk into a Gas cloud the same Toxin Proc status and symbol apply.

Why do you not see Gas as AoE Toxin damage???

[Azawarau]

The problem I have with slash procs and toxin damage is that health does not naturaly regenerate. Thus, on any non-healing frame (or quasi-healing like Nyx or DesecratemanNekros) and without a rejuv aura, you will eventually run out of health. Period. Even if Fartsprey's only deal a few damage at a time, if they hit you several times in a mission, combined with a couple of slash procs and/or toxin damage packets, you can easily die without ever running out of shields. Health orbs basically don't drop from enemies (as far as I can tell) and crate/locker drops can be hit or miss (and there are a finite number of them anyway).

 

If enemies can get a free shot to your non-regenerating health, then there's a problem. A very small passive regeneration, or a decent health orb drop rate from enemies (even a 1%  chance) would solve the problem as far as I'm concerned; giving every frame, regardless of loadout, a method to not die to attrition from unavoidable, non-regenerating damage.

You do realize you have options for this right?

 

QT,Life Strike, Healing items,Rejuvination

[Dwarfstar]

I feel like im not getting slashed as much in the new update. Anyone else feel the same? I can't find anything in the notes about it.

[AMACOMX]

i do have a point to state here ... tenno are maximum 4 and enemies are LOTS !!! ... shields should be buffed abit ... i really find the energy cost of shields useless when i get hit form the same lvl of enemy ... they tank me but i cant tank them ... yes tenno are ninjas but no shields are not to POOF !!! when a SINGLE lvl 30 unit shoots a few stray bullets !

boost the shields plz we need to survive 

[Naftal]

i do have a point to state here ... tenno are maximum 4 and enemies are LOTS !!! ... shields should be buffed abit ... i really find the energy cost of shields useless when i get hit form the same lvl of enemy ... they tank me but i cant tank them ... yes tenno are ninjas but no shields are not to POOF !!! when a SINGLE lvl 30 unit shoots a few stray bullets !

boost the shields plz we need to survive 

Enemies also are stupid and the players have plenty of different ways to prevent the enemies from dealing any damage...