Kubrow Degradation Is A Terrible System For Casual Players.

[CY13ERPUNK]

For those that don't play every day, the kubrow health loss factor is ridiculous. 

 

Before you say, just put it in stasis, here's why that sucks:

 

ex. 1

I haven't played in a few days and my kubrow is in stasis. I now have to plan my play time at least three hours ahead of time to deal with the cooldown. It's such a hassle. 

 

ex. 2

 

Alternatively, I haven't played in a few days and my kubrow isn't in stasis, it's lost tons of health and I then have to pay a huge sum of credits to get the health back to prevent it from dying. 

 

There is no reason to have this system. It just makes using an awesome part of the game a true hassle. 

 

+1 OP

 

i suggested when the pups were first introduced to have the effects of DNA/loyalty to be reversed

 

ie kubrows only lose health on death, but lose loyalty daily

 

everything else remains the same (cost for DNA, 3 pets a day, etc, etc)

 

this way, forgetting about yer pup would cost you combat effectiveness, ie dmg, but the dog wont die from neglect, at the same time, if you dont pet them daily or at least a couple times a week, say if you were gone for a week or two, it would take several days to get them back up to dealing good dmg again (since u could only 'repair' 3 pets worth of loyalty a day, thus it would take some time to repair the relationship)

[Archistopheles]

Though, to nitpick, the Incubation module itself comes from Jupiter, still, not exactly endgame content.

All nitpicks are appreciated. I had forgotten about that.

[Brimir]

The facts of the matter is that Sentinels do not have an upkeep, while Kubrows do.

 

Kubrows are an alternative to Sentinels, not an upgrade/improvement so the upkeep is stupid.

 

Unless they plan on forcing us to buy oil to grease up the gears of our Sentinels too, they should get rid of the upkeep cost.

[Katakuna]

Terrible system for everyone.  Terrible when it was implemented, still terrible now.

 

I still don't know what DE was thinking when they made loyalty decrease on death and health decrease daily, instead of vice versa.

[Brimir]

Loyalty loss on death I'm actually OK with; a chance to revive is better than the Sentinel automatically exploding.

 

It should come with some risk.

 

However, just to be clear, that doesn't justify the upkeep at all - it is already balanced by the risk of loyalty loss.

Edited October 9, 2014 by Brimir

[Tveoh]

So I'm sure you'll be in favour of us having to buy ammo, pay to maintain our equipment and buy fuel for our spaceship?

 

 

Totally Game for this..   Already Stated.  Have at the moment.. 3mil credits. that ... I have nothing to spend them on xD.   ^-^

[SoulEchelon]

Oh god dammit not this thread again. Guess I'll have to type this out yet again.

 

6 DNA stabilizers = 75k credits.

 

1 DNA stabilizer = 40% Kubrow stabilization.

 

Kubrow decay 10% a day.

 

That meants 1 DNA stabilizer = 4 days.

 

6 x 4 = 24.

 

75k credits = 24 days worth of healthy Kubrow.

 

If by chance you know for a fact you won't be playing very much for awhile, put your Kubrow in stasis. Doesn't decay.

 

Casual or hardcore, this is NOT a hard system to utilize and control.

 

Edit: I'll add that Stasis is an understandable zone of contention. I'll agree - THAT system in particular makes only sense in the fact that a Kubrow probably would need time to thaw. However gameplay-wise, it's a hindrance. The rest of this system though, is fine. However, the reason why Stasis is here is to stop players from totally circumventing the DNA destabilization feature.

Edited October 9, 2014 by SoulEchelon

[(XBOX)ShapelessHorr0r]

Kubrows aren't for casual players.

Actually, to be frank, most F2P games aren't meant for the casual player.

Anyways, kubrows are designed to be a time sink for veterans. Same as dojos. Same as solar rails. Same as void and derelict.

[EChondo]

Kubrows arent meant for Casual players. they are a commitment, if a casual dosnt want to have to deal with it then they ca get a Sentinel. But like any pet/companion you need to be committed, which is the way it should be.  

"Blah blah blah, I feel special cause of some stupid reason and that's why this shouldn't be changed."

 

That's pretty much what I get from what you're saying. The Kubrow is a commitment in itself by having to farm freaking Argon and 100,000 credits for the Incubator and then having to go through the RNG to get a stupid egg for a Kubrow you probably won't want.

 

So then you "Consign it to the Lotus" for 25,000 credits and do it all over again. Get over yourself, this is an unnecessary hassle for no reason other than to deter players enjoyment and have them spend plat.

[(XBOX)ShapelessHorr0r]

"Blah blah blah, I feel special cause of some stupid reason and that's why this shouldn't be changed."

That's pretty much what I get from what you're saying. The Kubrow is a commitment in itself by having to farm freaking Argon and 100,000 credits for the Incubator and then having to go through the RNG to get a stupid egg for a Kubrow you probably won't want.

So then you "Consign it to the Lotus" for 25,000 credits and do it all over again. Get over yourself, this is an unnecessary hassle for no reason other than to deter players enjoyment and have them spend plat.

My first Kubrow just got done incubating today.

I named it FLUFFY.

I don't truly think you understand what I'm saying. Kubrows are designed to have a lot of hassle for players with less time to play. Those who have done everything now have another way to get rid of their collected stuff.

In other words, the guy who literally can't get his Argon Crystals to reach zero.

Your same argument could be applied to dojos, but you would be missing the point.

Edited October 10, 2014 by (XB1)ShapelessHorr0r

[Riot_Inducer]

The problem I have with Doges is I have to either wait 3 hours or fork over real money premium currency to switch between my Doges.

 

Stasis is the problem for me.

Have to agree. The stasis timer is really the worst thing. It just makes zero sense no matter how I try to look at it. I could understand perhaps a 10 minute or even half hour timer for switching but three hours? WTH is that about? That's an entire play session for a lot of players, might as well make it 12 or 24 hours for all the difference it makes at that point.

 

The degradation and loyalty stuff is annoying as well but I can deal with that  a bit more at least now that they've reduced the rate of decay and cost of stabilizers. Still is quite silly all in all. 

[EChondo]

Your same argument could be applied to dojos, but you would be missing the point.

Actually it can't because 1) Dojos don't need 3 hours to join in and 2) Dojos are self managed. Whatever credits I pump into the Dojo I get to reuse when I delete that room or item, if I delete a Kubrow I don't get anything I've invested back. Even the plat I invested speeding up the process of creating rooms in the dojo is sent back to the vault to be reused when that room is deleted. Also progress is saved in the research labs when you delete them, so all you have to do is remake the room and BAM your stuff is there.

 

And Dojo's are a "wait once" and have forever, at anytime, and anywhere while Kubrows are "wait 3 hours" every time you want to use one. God forbid I want to customize each of my Kubrows and have wait 12 hours just so I can mod all four different species.

 

If I had a permanent BP for DNA Injectors and a permanent Incubator then it would be better, but three hours? For what exactly? To be thawed out? No, we are freaking space ninjas with a A.I. that talks to us on a spaceship that literally never runs out of fuel and can house 20+ Warframes and 100+ weapons and can make stuff out of thin air. Oh and a magic chick talking to our subconscious somehow.

 

Oh and another thing, why are Kubrows hatched from eggs? They're mammals aren't they? So why can't we have a male and female Kubrow make babies? The game is rated M, make use of it.

Edited October 10, 2014 by EChondo

[Loswaith]

the Devs themselves said Kubrows were a commitment, thats what it feels like to be a pet owner. 

 

the degradation literally means just feeding you pet to keep it healthy. If you ever owned a pet you should understand. making the Kubrows a living thing, means you form a greater connection to it mentally within the game, thats what its meant to be a companion so you dont feel like a lonely Tenno in space.

You reasoning makes little sence:

1. Pet owners dont have to slaugheter the neibourhood's pets to get one either. 

 

2. This wholesale slaughter of Kubrow isnt a great way to instill a feeling of companionship to another Kubrow.  You slaughtered hundreds of healthy kubrow to get them so why would you care about just that one anymore than those 100s you killed.

 

Now if you saved the pod/egg/young from grineer slaughtering/abducting the wild kubrow, then that would instill much more of a sence of companionship.

 

The whole kubrow take and design needs a serious re-look as it stands it's totally gamey.

Edited October 10, 2014 by Loswaith

[Azawarau]

You dont have to play every day

 

You can log on once a week and keep it alive provided you know how to make a measly 75k

[Kestral9999]

1. Show me proof, even the smallest example of when anyone from DE said that.

Argon Crystals.

[ArgonTheFox]

In one of the September Community Hot Topic Polls, the question about Kubrow Degredation was asked, and it was an absolutely overwhelming vote for people hating on the Kubrow Degration, so hopefully DE is looking at things they can do with it.

 

Give it time. They'll comment on it eventually.

[Archistopheles]

Argon Crystals.

Ok, yes, that exists in the game, but what is your point? Are you trying to say that the stuff that drops in T1 void missions is "end game"? Because I bet I can get an Argon crystal with a Mk1-Braton.

[Kestral9999]

Ok, yes, that exists in the game, but what is your point? Are you trying to say that the stuff that drops in T1 void missions is "end game"? Because I bet I can get an Argon crystal with a Mk1-Braton.

It's quite humorous to me how you sound EXACTLY like I did when I was qqing over Kubrows just after their release. Like, I pretty much replied in that exact same way.

 

Devstream 25 or so (back when they were still featuring the Liset) they stated that the Kubrows were being developed with veteran players in mind. I don't remember verbatim but if you'd like to go back and watch some Devstreams to disprove me, by all means; do so.

 

More to the point as to show my personal feelings on the matter. I despise kubrow degradation and would be happy to see it modified or gone. I almost lost my Kubrow last night because I hadn't logged in for a while and forgot that I didn't put her in stasis. I'd have been quite unhappy had I logged in today instead.

Edited October 10, 2014 by Kestral9999

[(XBOX)ShapelessHorr0r]

Actually it can't because 1) Dojos don't need 3 hours to join in and 2) Dojos are self managed. Whatever credits I pump into the Dojo I get to reuse when I delete that room or item, if I delete a Kubrow I don't get anything I've invested back. Even the plat I invested speeding up the process of creating rooms in the dojo is sent back to the vault to be reused when that room is deleted. Also progress is saved in the research labs when you delete them, so all you have to do is remake the room and BAM your stuff is there.

 

And Dojo's are a "wait once" and have forever, at anytime, and anywhere while Kubrows are "wait 3 hours" every time you want to use one. God forbid I want to customize each of my Kubrows and have wait 12 hours just so I can mod all four different species.

 

If I had a permanent BP for DNA Injectors and a permanent Incubator then it would be better, but three hours? For what exactly? To be thawed out? No, we are freaking space ninjas with a A.I. that talks to us on a spaceship that literally never runs out of fuel and can house 20+ Warframes and 100+ weapons and can make stuff out of thin air. Oh and a magic chick talking to our subconscious somehow.

 

Oh and another thing, why are Kubrows hatched from eggs? They're mammals aren't they? So why can't we have a male and female Kubrow make babies? The game is rated M, make use of it.

Players who are at their endgame don't have to wait the three hours as they will usually jump online at least once every two days.

You still don't get the point, sadly.

[CrazyCatLad]

I'm okay with the loyalty but it is indeed a terrible system.  Everything about it - cost, time, hassle, cost, cost.

 

You're telling me my carrier doesn't need maintenance after getting blown apart a few times a day?

 

+1 for getting rid of it.  Might just level it up, chuck into stasis and wait until they right their wrong.

[BrazilianJoe]

Kubrow caring mechanics are a bad tamagochi and ill-fitted to Warframe player base. I am begrudgingly making one of each race just for the mastery. 

 

It is an immensely wasted opportunity. Kubrow DNA should have been broken down into several traits which require slots (like weapon inventory slots), for color, pattern, gender, race, size, and build (skinny,strong, chubby).

To raise a Kubrow, there should be Kubrow slots (like Warframe slot in the inventory), and combining the traits the player possesses in his inventory would allow him to grow a kubrow from the egg with the traits the player chooses. 

 

An the tamagochi mechanics should belong ONLY when the Kubrow is not yet mature. No silly purchasing of papito dogfoods for them, no silly 3-hours-before-you-can-use-the-dog-you took-great-effort-to-raise. 

[ArbitUHM]

Have you people used one recently, or are you going by your initial impressions when they were first released?  They made improvements to AI, decreased degradation, decreased stabilizer cost (used to be 100k), and they increased the pickup radius so you don't feel obligated to use sweeper all the time.  Kubrows are absurdly durable, can be kept healthy easily with pack leader, and can be revived, and my raksa continuously restores my shields rather than waits for me to take health damage before restoring them all in one lump.  She chops decently high level dudes in half with one hit and tanks tons of damage rather than getting immediately pwned once bombards show up.  She's totally worth the upkeep cost.

 

And as far as the upkeep goes, I pop her out of the freezer so she's ready the next day (not going to sit around for three hours), then I use her for 3 to 4 days.  According to SoulEchelon's numbers above, that means she'll lose 30-40% stability which means I need to use one stabilizer.  75k divided by six (six stabilizers per pack) means that stabilizer cost me 12.5k credits.  She pretty much never dies, so the loyalty thing doesn't matter.  Then I pop her back in the freezer and play with my sentinels for a while.

 

Obviously as a player I'm not thrilled about paying upkeep costs and whatnot, but I wouldn't call it a terrible, costly hassle.

[EChondo]

Players who are at their endgame don't have to wait the three hours as they will usually jump online at least once every two days.

You still don't get the point, sadly.

No, you don't get the point since the players at "endgame" sign in maybe once a week for the update to see what's new, or they stop playing for a month then come back to catch up.

 

The new players and average knowledge players are the ones that sign in every two days. Sadly you don't understand the actual situation at hand so you spout BS.

 

I'm MR14 and I went hiatus for the past three months and just recently came back. I'm almost done catching up with what I want and I already feel like taking another vacation from this game. There's NOTHING for people like us, and I sure as Hell don't think at all that Kubrows is anything close to being "endgame content".

 

Steve is right, the forums are the endgame. Maybe when sigils come out that can keep me occupied for a month before I leave again.

[Aerothan]

I'm MR-8. Currently, I have everything in the game that I want with no desire to rank up since it holds no current benefit. I consider my self an end game player, and you do not speak for me. I'm still on almost daily for at least a few hours because I enjoy playing the game, and for no other reason. I have two Kubrow, both Huras. One in stasis since it is maxed, and I keep the other because of its aesthetics. I have not come close to losing a Kubrow because as stated it costs next to nothing to upkeep them one you have the majority of the map unlocked. If there is a certain large conflict going on with good pay, you can have months of stability in just a few runs (though not a guarantee) but just playing the game, solo most often, this has never been an issue. Maybe because I don't need to use every Kubrow in one day to be content, but that's my personal play style. How about we just stop playing and never give DE any more money, because that will for sure make the game better.

DE depends on people playing the game so they can continue to afford to develop it. At least we have been given the option of a companion that requires us to log in. Before the Kubrow, I was inactive for two updates, before 12 up to 14. Now I feel like I have a reason to play and its getting better every day. If you don't like it, consider developing your own game and trying to appease a fan base as large as ours while continuing to pay the bills. We don't need to play the game of we don't like it, you don't need a Kubrow to beat the game. It is an option that I prefer, so I play it.

Edited October 10, 2014 by Aerothan

[Mak_Gohae]

I'm MR-8. Currently, I have everything in the game that I want with no desire to rank up since it holds no current benefit. I consider my self an end game player, and you do not speak for me. I'm still on almost daily for at least a few hours because I enjoy playing the game, and for no other reason. I have two Kubrow, both Huras. One in stasis since it is maxed, and I keep the other because of its aesthetics. I have not come close to losing a Kubrow because as stated it costs next to nothing to upkeep them one you have the majority of the map unlocked. If there is a certain large conflict going on with good pay, you can have months of stability in just a few runs (though not a guarantee) but just playing the game, solo most often, this has never been an issue. Maybe because I don't need to use every Kubrow in one day to be content, but that's my personal play style. How about we just stop playing and never give DE any more money, because that will for sure make the game better.

DE depends on people playing the game so they can continue to afford to develop it. At least we have been given the option of a companion that requires us to log in. Before the Kubrow, I was inactive for two updates, before 12 up to 14. Now I feel like I have a reason to play and its getting better every day. If you don't like it, consider developing your own game and trying to appease a fan base as large as ours while continuing to pay the bills. We don't need to play the game of we don't like it, you don't need a Kubrow to beat the game. It is an option that I prefer, so I play it.

 

That's the funny thing, when you get most stuff to max the money flow to tremendous and even at 100k with the larger degradation the price meant nothing. A while back there was a complain about the game not having a cash sink with people running around with millions of dollars, i still hover around a million currently, so this was probably one of the solutions and now people flip out because they need to do 3 T3 missions or runs a couple DS missions to get that cash.

 

Some people were worried about the use of the Sentinels when the dogs was announced and they said that there will be a delay when switching your dog so you dont completely stop the use of sentinels.

 

Cash sink was asked by players, making sure that Sentinels arent completely replaced by players was asked by players...

And now both of the thinks that were asked for are being complained about.

DE can never win.