Do Something About Serration And Hornet Strike.

[StinkyPygmy]

i think most people are upset about the lack of variety (loss of one mod slot) that comes about from serration.

sure, but honestly almost every mod that folks use adds damage in one way or another...

 

serration should stay in. one of the reasons why it exists (and is also a 10 rank mod) is a gating mechanism.

you have to spend time, credits and cores leveling that sucker up to 10.

this keeps you playing and is a substitute to leveling via affinity.

 

this *is* progression. leveling a warframe takes about 3 hours if you're being at all serious about it.

leveling a serration takes 2+ million credits and 264 r5 fusion cores.

you're *not* going to get there in a brief amount of time.

If thats the biggest sense of progression WF has then that says a lot about how much things need to improve.

Don't get me wrong, I love this game and I am fairly content with how DE is doing things. But I still find pure dmg mods entirely redundent.

If you actually put time and think about your builds a bit you don;t need it in any aspect.

 

First of all, I am not angry at all and I'm being civil here.

 

If you think serration is not needed then that's your opinion and thats all good, but I do not agree, to me it is vital and the first r10 mod I maxed because who doens't want more damage ?

 

You can't replace serration because it takes up one mod slot and gives 165% dmg, you'd want to make 3 mods out of it for the same amount of dmg ? it does not work, I'm sorry.

It does work, because you can get just as far without serration. It makes those single dmg mods pointless. Why bother having physical dmg types and faction weaknesses when you can just buff everything up to insane levels? Its  a case of slap on serration and forget about everything else.

 

Ironically enough, many of the players that complain WF is too easy are also the first ones to complain when one of the very things that makes it too easy is nerfed or removed. Anyway, its just a suggestion and I happen to fully agree.

You can kill just as fast without serration.

Edited October 23, 2014 by StinkyPygmy

[SwiftPotato12]

I went and up voted every single post that said "No" in some for or another. Now if that wasn't enough let me say it again, NO! This IS(as many others have already explained) a game that focuses on progression. If that's not for you than you can go back to COD. However if you can deal with the grind and maybe here and there buy things with plat that is also an option. Warframe is based on feeling like a bad-&#! as you run thru the level one-shotting everything, the devs have even said this in response to buffing the AI. If that's not what you like then don't play Warframe!

[akira_him]

It is all about mastery rank

I can put in these mod quickly and rank up my weapons to 30 very fast

I don't need to spend any more credits to do the upgrade thing weapon by weapon

 

what the OP suggested would only force people use elemental dmg mods instead of base dmg mods and put us back to MOD1.0 and rainbow builds

Edited October 23, 2014 by akira_him

[Tr1ples1xer]

You can kill just as fast without serration.

Of course you can't, this statement does not make sense !!

 

Anyone complaining that this game is too easy should go play something else.

 

1300 hours played, I have 2 maxxed serration one for me on for my sentinel, and I would add even more damage if I could.

 

You can't have too much damage imo.

[StinkyPygmy]

I went and up voted every single post that said "No" in some for or another. Now if that wasn't enough let me say it again, NO! This IS(as many others have already explained) a game that focuses on progression. If that's not for you than you can go back to COD. However if you can deal with the grind and maybe here and there buy things with plat that is also an option. Warframe is based on feeling like a bad-@$$ as you run thru the level one-shotting everything, the devs have even said this in response to buffing the AI. If that's not what you like then don't play Warframe!

I like how you speaking for the Devs and imply you know what they want out of the game. That is not what they said in response to buffing AI. I watched the stream.

None of that is a compelling argument. Regardless even if that was the case it wouldn't be the first time the devs have reevaluated their intentions. They also wouldn't have nerfed trin or rhino if the goal was to feel like a badass and oneshotting everything through 99% of the game.

 

Regardless, you don't need pure dmg mods to achieve that.

Edited October 23, 2014 by StinkyPygmy

[Tsukinoki]

@Innocent_Flower
The reason I like serration/hornet strike/point blank/pressure point?
Because it is a form of progression.
I can easily see my weapon get more powerful as I spend time and effort in this game maxing out serration.

As I've said its boring to play a game and go:
"It doesn't matter whether I play in the newbie area or the end game, it'll still take 7 shots to kill this enemy...."
And that's what a flat progression invariably is.

You never feel stronger in those systems and its quite boring

And besides, just removing that mod wont solve your issues of "No build variety!!!!"
Because what about multishot?

What about elements? Afterall, these are just as 'required' in any build as serration and are always the same against a singular faction.
And what about fire rate mods? Because if you remove the direct damage mods this one is the next boost for burst damage output and very few guns dont benefit from it.  What will you do when this becomes the next 'required' mod?

[StinkyPygmy]

Of course you can't, this statement does not make sense !!

 

Anyone complaining that this game is too easy should go play something else.

 

1300 hours played, I have 2 maxxed serration one for me on for my sentinel, and I would add even more damage if I could.

 

You can't have too much damage imo.

My experience and the experiences of others that don't often use serration would beg to differ.

At most you might be able effective at killing lvl 80 enemies instead of 70. But seeing as that is way beyond what the game is balanced for its neither here nor there.

 

Whether you are 1 shotting a lvl 60 enemy by 1000 dmg or 5000 dmg is kind of irrelevent. You are still one shotting him. Ergo: Killing just as fast.

Edited October 23, 2014 by StinkyPygmy

[SwiftPotato12]

I like how you speaking for the Devs and imply you know what they want out of the game. That is not what they said in response to buffing AI. I watched the stream.

None of that is a compelling argument. Regardless even if that wa steh case it wouldn't be the first time teh devs have reevaluated their intentions. They also wouldn't have nerfed trin or rhino if the goal was to feel like a badass and oneshotting everything through 99% of the game.

 

Regardless, you don't need pure dmg mods to achieve that.

If you have watched the Dev streams then you would also know that they said they wont be reworking the mod system. I do believe nerfing a perfectly necessary mod would imply that as it would send us back to rainbow builds.

This has been stated above as well.

It is all about mastery rank

I can put in these mod quickly and rank up my weapons to 30 very fast

I don't need to spend any more credits to do the upgrade thing weapon by weapon

 

what the OP suggested would only force people use elemental dmg mods instead of base dmg mods and put us back to MOD1.0

[Tr1ples1xer]

My experience and the experiences of others that don't often use serration would beg to differ.

At most you might be able effective at killing lvl 80 enemies instead of 70. But seeing as that is way beyond what the game is balanced for its neither here nor there.

Oh sure you could kill a lvl 80 Lephantis using only a unmodded lato if you'd want, only difference is its going to take you a week instead of a few minutes, what is the fun in that ?

 

If you are already not equipping serration and enjoying the game then what is the problem ?  I need it, you don't  we all win in the end.

[StinkyPygmy]

If you have watched the Dev streams then you would also know that they said they wont be reworking the mod system. I do believe nerfing a perfectly necessary mod would imply that as it would send us back to rainbow builds.

This has been stated above as well.

They said they wont remove or rework the whole system. Not potentially remove or rebalance a mod, which is something they have done before.

If its so necessary then the players that don't use them yet somehow still get just as far as others must be using void magic...

[Eyeless]

I don't think any of these naysayers are understanding the point the OP is getting at or what exactly would come of this, but I haven't been surprised by the actions of the forum community for a while now. 

 

Straight up damage and multishot mods are simply bad for our modding system. That doesn't mean they're bad mods, but simply they remove any chance for creativity that the mod system could potentially have in favor of a system that caters to straight forward builds with a boring emphasis on damage. 

 

Without these two mod types on both your fire-arms, you're deliberately gimping yourself and for those who can't sleep well at night because of that (as you can tell, there are many) and this has driven all of us into the mentality that maximum DPS is what matters, and honestly right now, it really is. 

 

DE have fought for their mod system countless times vying for its limitless possibilities, and I really want to see that, but as it stands, these two mods set an unhealthy trend that DE can't help but cater towards what with how heavily reliant we've all become on them. 

 

 

 

If Serration, Hornet Strike, Split Chamber, and Barrel Diffusion were removed from the game and the other damage mods were fleshed out to give more interesting properties, enemy scaling, weapon balance, all of it, would most definitely get a look. 

 

In short, if these mods were taken out of the picture, DE would rework or add various mods in, and tweak enemy scaling to compensate. 

 

That's what all the naysayers here don't seem to understand.

 

The OP isn't suggesting that DE simply take away these two mod types and leave us in the dark with the way things are now. Removal of these two mods would usher in a new era of mod customization and a new approach to how damage is applied and how enemies are dealt with. 

 

If done right we'd have the variety DE has been wanting from the their system because there'd finally be a reason to start fleshing out other weapon mods that go unused and open up some admittedly wackier possibilities that could change how our weapons function altogether. 

 

Doesn't that sound like more fun? Higher emphasis on variety and customization as opposed to all the min-maxing everyone here supposedly hates but strives to do anyway? 

Edited October 23, 2014 by Hastur609

[Alphafox]

They said they wont remove or rework the whole system. Not potentially remove or rebalance a mod, which is something they have done before.

If its so necessary then the players that don't use them yet somehow still get just as far as others must be using void magic...

Shamelessly plugging my thread for a possible solution

[xethier]

If thats the biggest sense of progression WF has then that says a lot about how much things need to improve.

Don't get me wrong, I love this game and I am fairly content with how DE is doing things. But I still find pure dmg mods entirely redundent.

If you actually put time and think about your builds a bit you don;t need it in any aspect.

 

-snip-

 

i didn't say progression, i said gating mechanism and hinted at time sink.

but sure, you're right here.

and i agree, it could be better than it is.

 

that's actually quite beside the point though.

 

this is one of the reasons that it exists. 

 

yes, you can get by without serration, if you absolutely have to. but you'll always be behind the curve compared to other players damage output if you don't use it as all other damage scales off of it. 

 

again, i don't think this paradigm is perfect, nor do i really even like the way it's done now. but until there is a major alteration in how it functions, this is what we have.

 

what alternative would you advocate?

[SIDESTRE4M]

Serration acts as a progress bar. It grows with the player through the game.

 

Removing it will cause other mods taking its place. The next step would be elementals. So we would have to remove them. Then whats next? Pumping up our weapons with less reload time and more ammo.

[StinkyPygmy]

Oh sure you could kill a lvl 80 Lephantis using only a unmodded lato if you'd want, only difference is its going to take you a week instead of a few minutes, what is the fun in that ?

 

If you are already not equipping serration and enjoying the game then what is the problem ?  I need it, you don't  we all win in the end.

Like i said I simply agree that it is redundant. If it stays I wont really care either way. It would just be nice to see single dmg mods have a reason to exist. If they were buffed to suitable levels then serration would be even more redundent. Its more an issue that serration doesn't actually add anything to the game except a sense of progression, which highly subjective, I'm not feeling that progression at all. It speaks volumes if that is about as much of a sense of progression as we currently get.

[akira_him]

snip

So go ask the devs to change the enemy scaling first, then we will discuss about this

for now the answer is : NO

 

edited

the possible solution is simple, add a slot especially for base damage slot like aura mods

it is not necessary to remove the card or to change how it works right now

BTW splint chamber is not always required (like the mutalist quanta)

Edited October 23, 2014 by akira_him

[SwiftPotato12]

So go ask the devs to change the enemy scaling first, then we will discuss about this

for now the answer is : NO

Couldn't have said it better.

[StinkyPygmy]

I don't think any of these naysayers are understanding the point the OP is getting at or what exactly would come of this, but I haven't been surprised by the actions of the forum community for a while now. 

 

Straight up damage and multishot mods are simply bad for our modding system. That doesn't mean they're bad mods, but simply they remove any chance for creativity that the mod system could potentially have in favor of a system that caters to straight forward builds with a boring emphasis on damage. 

 

Without these two mod types on both your fire-arms, you're deliberately gimping yourself and for those who can't sleep well at night because of that (as you can tell, there are many) and this has driven all of us into the mentality that maximum DPS is what matters, and honestly right now, it really is. 

 

DE have fought for their mod system countless times vying for its limitless possibilities, and I really want to see that, but as it stands, these two mods set an unhealthy trend that DE can't help but cater towards what with how heavily reliant we've all become on them. 

 

 

 

If Serration, Hornet Strike, Split Chamber, and Barrel Diffusion were removed from the game and the other damage mods were fleshed out to give more interesting properties, enemy scaling, weapon balance, all of it, would most definitely get a look. 

 

In short, if these mods were taken out of the picture, DE would rework or add various mods in, and tweak enemy scaling to compensate. 

 

That's what all the naysayers here don't seem to understand.

 

The OP isn't suggesting that DE simply take away these two mod types and leave us in the dark with the way things are now. Removal of these two mods would usher in a new era of mod customization and a new approach to how damage is applied and how enemies are dealt with. 

 

If done right we'd have the variety DE has been wanting from the their system because there'd finally be a reason to start fleshing out other weapon mods that go unused and open up some admittedly wackier possibilities that could change how our weapons function altogether. 

 

Doesn't that sound like more fun? Higher emphasis on variety and customization as opposed to all the min-maxing everyone here supposedly hates but strives to do anyway? 

I agree except in the case of multi shot. I actually run creative builds on them using weapons the can benefit from the inaccuracy in the cases of the torrid. Multishot + HC helps give me good spread on my grenades and cover a larger area.

 

Try also my TYSIS HANDCANNON (patent pending), Its a status machine! 3 dart capabilities! ITS ALMOST A HANDCANNON! BUT NOT REALLY! GREAT FOR CLOSE QUARTERS! MAGNUMFORCE INNACURACY PENALTY ALLOWS FOR SPREAD ALMOST LIKE A SHOTGUN (Kinda)!! 100% status chance! INNATE CORROSIVE DMG ALLOWS FOR 3 ELEMENTAL EFFECTS!

 

BUY YOURS TODAY!

 

back on topic: maybe just rework the way multishot works a bit, because you can really get some unique builds out of it.

Your statement is pretty much the crux of it. Mods like serration kill creativity and hurt other aspects of the game and the modding system itself. People that are for their removal or rework are also aware that DE won't just remove them and leave us hanging, we want this to highlight other issues and get them fixed, along with the introduction of new and better mechanics and mods. If done right, then no one will even miss pure dmg mods and as a result we will have a more fun game that pleases people on both sides of the discussion.

Edited October 23, 2014 by StinkyPygmy

[Innocent_Flower]

Are you serious ?

 

Serration is the best mod in the game !! its the first mod I focused on maxing, it helps you kill stuff faster because thats the ONLY thing you do in this game GO FAST AND KILL STUFF.

 

Serration FTW.

 

Now can you explain why you don't like it ? With all your posts I see I have a feeling WF might not be the game for you...

I don't think I need to give an intelligent reply to that. 

 

@Innocent_Flower

The reason I like serration/hornet strike/point blank/pressure point?

Because it is a form of progression.

I can easily see my weapon get more powerful as I spend time and effort in this game maxing out serration.

As I've said its boring to play a game and go:

"It doesn't matter whether I play in the newbie area or the end game, it'll still take 7 shots to kill this enemy...."

And that's what a flat progression invariably is.

You never feel stronger in those systems and its quite boring

And besides, just removing that mod wont solve your issues of "No build variety!!!!"

Because what about multishot?

What about elements? Afterall, these are just as 'required' in any build as serration and are always the same against a singular faction.

And what about fire rate mods? Because if you remove the direct damage mods this one is the next boost for burst damage output and very few guns dont benefit from it.  What will you do when this becomes the next 'required' mod?

Well. 

 

Isn't it also boring to go into the level 7 area and instakill everything with your fully automatic weapon? I find earth unplayable without nerfing myself to S#&$. 

 

Elements, mulstishot and firerate mods can get their own ballancing at around the same time. #

 

 

Could I also add that there is a solution up their to just make more types of serration/hornet strike. One that keeps modding interesting whilst keeping progression the way it currently is. 

[Tr1ples1xer]

Isn't it also boring to go into the level 7 area and instakill everything with your fully automatic weapon? I find earth unplayable without nerfing myself to S#&$. 

NO its fun !!

 

Unplayable ? ohh geez, I don't think I need to give an intelligent reply to that...

[Innocent_Flower]

I didn't expect one. 

 

 

Joking, Joking. Promise (?) 

 

But Really. I spend too much time looking at my mod menu. Buffing,nerfing. redirection and vitality are almost as bad as serration and hornet strike.  I just feel myself falling asleep when I play a long game with easy enemies. Oh I remember Trying to get loki. T4 survival. 35 minutes of mind-numbingly easy. 5 minutes of respectable difficulty. Post 40 hell. Repeat again and again. All down to having all-powerful mods with an all powerful weapon in an all-awful scaling system with all-awful RNG. 

Edited October 23, 2014 by Innocent_Flower

[crafturtoemc]

After all this...All I can say is a NO

[StinkyPygmy]

NO its fun !!

 

Unplayable ? ohh geez, I don't think I need to give an intelligent reply to that...

The thing you don't realise is that serration isn't even needed to oneshot everything. Thats the issue, you wont even miss it and as a result new and better mods and mechanics will be added. More variety and more fun. You will still go around oneshotting everything if you so choose.

[Tsukinoki]

@Innocent_Flower
I actually like having the option to go to a lower level planet and just slaughter enemies.
I'm a fan of the "Dynasty Warriors" type games and being able to go back and just mow through enemies (or bosses) without a worry is actually fun for me.  To each their own though.

But the point I was trying to bring up with Elements/Multishot/Firerate is that there will always be required mods that only serve the purpose of allowing you to keep up with everyone else and take up a slot.
There will always be mods that every build will have.  All that nerfing or removing the current ones will do is move on to the next one.

And honestly there are other changes I would like more than making the damage mods 'corrupted' essentially.
Such as a serration that rewards head-shots,  It only offers say 120% damage increase, but it increases the weakpoint multiplier.  So instead of of a lancer headshot only dealing 2x damage it would instead deal 3x or more.
Or one that rewards hitting enemies from behind, say only giving 120% damage increase for frontal hits but damage for hitting from behind is instead 165% like we have now.
That way it rewards play styles more and allows you to choose the damage increase that fits how you play the game without having the mods instead tied more to the weapon itself.
Such as with your idea the +dmg/-reload or +dmg/-clipsize would *never* be used on the vectis, instead the +dmg/+recoil would be used as it would never have any draw-backs for it.

Instead of having a single mod required for all weapons the corrupted idea would just change it to having a single variation of serration for individual weapons.
Not much of a change honestly.

[izzatuw]

No. Horrible idea, in T4's heavies and eximus become nothing but bullet sponges. Unless DE overhauls the entire balance system in general, they should stay as they stay