De, Pay Attention. I'm Going To Help You Fix This.

[FATEdPondera]

Okay, everyone, stop, just STOP!!! Good lord... It's been an absolute mad house the past few days. I may have gotten myself prepared to take a break from this, but that doesn't stop me from checking in to see if the Viver problem is fixed.

 

DE, if you continue like this, not only is the Viver problem not going to be fixed, you're going to lose people. This isn't a rage thread. You liked my suggestions before. I'm going to try and help you fix this before something catastrophic happens to a game I've grown extremely fond of.

 

First off, Mag's shield polarize does not effect herself anymore. This is a huge mistake. She's already a frail frame, focusing on shields, which have always been iffy in the past as it was. Please, tell me this is a bug, is not intended and will be fixed at some point.

 

Line of sight, as I found out from helpful commenters within the community in my own thread, and you are undoubtedly finding out now, is buggy, prone to missing targets who so much as hide behind a crate, as Grineer like to do, and has approximately a 0% approval rating, from what I've seen. Please, for the love of Hayden, abandon this idea. I'm sorry I suggested it.

 

Now, suggestion time. I've had a while to think about this, and I'm going to do the same thing I did before. Suggestions and solutions, best to worst.

 

1) attach varying cooldowns to certain powers. Some powers are already effected by this directly, like Nyx' chaos and mind control (are the changes to that working, btw?). Others are effected indirectly, like Mag's pull, in that they have no effect on the target if rapidly spammed. Consider a 10-15 second cooldown on ultimates and AoEs to prevent the kind of spam that allowed Viver to become possible. If it persists still, add an additional second to the cooldown everytime an AoE power is casted within a 5 minute span.

 

2) I mentioned this before, and it got alot of positive reviews from the community. Make Syndicate rep round/time survived instead of affinity based. There already is a system in place to show how long we survived in a match. You see it next to that weird emblem thing on the extraction screen. Attach a multiplier to it, figure out the details later, give rep in relevance to that. Honestly, Syndicate reputation should function like an impress-o-meter. You need to do impressive things to gain reputation, like making it to wave 100 of a T4 defense, perhaps?

 

oh, and maybe implement a node difficulty multiplier. That way Appoloderus (or however you spell it) doesn't become the new Viver. Harder the map, the bigger the gain.

 

3) Add a rep multiplier to purchased syndicate sigils. As of right now, there's no point to buying one, save to look fancy. I know I mentioned this before, but I'm sure you've noticed how many people there are screaming that this is another grind wall. Might want to do something to make the locals happy considering 15.2.0 has the population at near revolt levels.

 

4) BLOW UP VIVER. At least for the time being. This one node has led to no end of problems, and has exacerbated many problems innate to the Warframe engine. Until something can be decided on what can be done, lock it and kick the macro farmers out.

 

I know I'm reiterating alot of what I said once before, but the path this game is taking is getting really scary to me..... let me tell you a brief tale. There is another game that went down this path called Planetside 2. Nearly every patch, things are nerfed, and made less and less effective. Is there balance? Maybe? Probably? However, this element of balance has made things largely indistinguishable from one another. Every gun feels very much the same as every other gun. They're all universally ineffective and boring. There's probably a reason why I don't play it very much anymore.

 

I found Warframe to be fun because each frame was obnoxiously overpowered in its own unique way. Mag's Shield polarize left her nearly invincible in the hands of an attentive player, Ash's blade storm was, and still is, absolutely amazing to watch, even Ember's simplistic Micheal Bay explosion approach to combat is still a wonder to behold. I'lll tell you right now, nerfs will reduce the player base, and remove fun from this game. More often than not, balance and fun are mutually exclusive. Especially in a PvE centric game.

 

I've said my peace. You listened to me once, and hopefully, this reaches your ears again. I beg you, save this game.

[Tsoe]

dang wut is viver? some sort of snake or something?

[UndeadGhostWarrior]

There is only 1 solution. Delete viver.

 

Syndicate rep should have never been tied to xp gain. They should be mission based .

 

Nerfing frames will never solve the problem

Edited November 14, 2014 by UndeadGhostWarrior

[Sifu]

The problem is NOT Viver or any other XP grind map, problem is with Syndicate logic itself... gosh, stop fighting windmils and look at the real problem already!

[Magister_Zel]

NO! people are not gonna leave over something that silly, tired of people posting the same thing over and over in a new thread instead of searching for posts of the like.

 

I will give you this, the idea of the rep multiplier is a good one but

DE will figure it out like they always have so don't fret.

Edited November 14, 2014 by 911nsidejob

[KiteoHatto]

Cooldowns will make things worse for everyone, rep farmers will just change the frame and change where they stand and those who aren't viver farming will get their "main" frame nerfed for no reason resulting in more rage.

 

I like your suggestion #3 though.

 

REP gain at the end should be a mix of your MR, mission time, enemy level at the end. That way exterminate/cap/spy/sabotage/md maps will give out a constant rep number. On the other hand survival and def maps will spew out as much rep as you deserve to get.

 

As for viver, they should just change the tileset size so people can't cover the whole map with 2 groups spamming 4s, but people might find another node that's small =|

 

 

"You need to do impressive things to gain reputation, like making it to wave 100 of a T4 defense, perhaps?" - This, i don't like, this is just making things more painful.

[FATEdPondera]

Cooldowns will make things worse for everyone, rep farmers will just change the frame and change where they stand and those who aren't viver farming will get their "main" frame nerfed for no reason resulting in more rage.

 

 

 

"You need to do impressive things to gain reputation, like making it to wave 100 of a T4 defense, perhaps?" - This, i don't like, this is just making things more painful.

 

How so? What I'm proposing is that any skill/spell/ability that does AoE damage and hit stuff through the landscape be placed on a SHORT cooldown that shouldn't impact regular play too severely. This isn't just about Viver. This is about the concept of everything within 80m dying to a macro spam. [DE]Steve was right on that part. Warframes are about the gun and the blade. Abilities, IMHO, are supposed to be massive exclamation points in battle; incredible displays of power that leave few alive, and those that survive are in no state to fight. Spamming them just cheapens the whole concept.

 

As for the 100 waves of T4 defense..... please stop taking my wild and outlandish examples literally. Seriously, this is like....the 6,734,972,642,746,273rd time it's happened.

[Wolfglaive]

NO! people are not gonna leave over something that silly, tired of people posting the same thing over and over in a new thread instead of searching for posts of the like.

Lol. It's not silly, it's fairly serious considering the situation. People already have left, and it burned probably around 60% of new players, likely more, by making their frames essentially garbage. Modding a frame out doesn't matter much when the mechanics behind the abilities leave a lot to be desired. Excal's only ability to truly receive a buff (don't try to say Super Jump was buffed. It was a token addition of some visual effects and a useless small radial stun, and 99.9% of people with Excal still only use it to get a little higher, which directional melee is usually better for anyway) got nerfed, along with his previous viable ability Radial Blind.

Mag was situational and now only has two useful abilities (Attractors been dead for a while, and SP is now useless unless in open spaces on a Corpus map which is a rarity, considering they favor hallways and compartmentalized rooms)

Trinity was already nerfed, though that nerf made sense. Now she's only situationally viable as a battery on a defense or another mission where you all stay close together. Vampire wasn't nerfed in a meaningful way, it was only made more niche. Wave 50  T4 Defense without using a single E-restore, anyone?

[Orbister]

no cooldowns.

[Magister_Zel]

Lol. It's not silly, it's fairly serious considering the situation. People already have left, and it burned probably around 60% of new players, likely more, by making their frames essentially garbage. Modding a frame out doesn't matter much when the mechanics behind the abilities leave a lot to be desired. Excal's only ability to truly receive a buff (don't try to say Super Jump was buffed. It was a token addition of some visual effects and a useless small radial stun, and 99.9% of people with Excal still only use it to get a little higher, which directional melee is usually better for anyway) got nerfed, along with his previous viable ability Radial Blind.

Mag was situational and now only has two useful abilities (Attractors been dead for a while, and SP is now useless unless in open spaces on a Corpus map which is a rarity, considering they favor hallways and compartmentalized rooms)

Trinity was already nerfed, though that nerf made sense. Now she's only situationally viable as a battery on a defense or another mission where you all stay close together. Vampire wasn't nerfed in a meaningful way, it was only made more niche. Wave 50  T4 Defense without using a single E-restore, anyone?

I still see the player numbers the same throughout the day, i have a lot of new members in my clan that love the game and don't even care about the drama in forums. DE will address this, there will be an update in the morning at some point and all will be good for those bent out of shape.

[Vesiga]

If we just get rid of the recent nerfs, and just change viver to something 100% different, make it a defense or survival mission v: 
Then untie rep gain from exp, and change the whole rep gain system.
Then things will be fine.

[Tsoe]

i want a founder syndicate

[Sifu]

no cooldowns.

 

Yes, cooldowns is a terrible idea.

 

For some time DE makind alot of questionable decisions, I`m starting to lose my faith in this project =(

[Hypernaut1]

no cooldowns.

only if they improve the energy system

Edited November 14, 2014 by Hypernaut1

[HolidayPi3]

 

 

1) attach varying cooldowns to certain powers. Some powers are already effected by this directly, like Nyx' chaos and mind control (are the changes to that working, btw?). Others are effected indirectly, like Mag's pull, in that they have no effect on the target if rapidly spammed. Consider a 10-15 second cooldown on ultimates and AoEs to prevent the kind of spam that allowed Viver to become possible. If it persists still, add an additional second to the cooldown everytime an AoE power is casted within a 5 minute span.

 

 

This is the suggestion that's going to get you the most flak. Mind if I offer an alternative?

One of the ideas that was floating around the community awhile ago is that using your ultimate multiple times consecutively within a short time span would increase its cost for a set time (stacking). This would allow us to still spam ults, but only in our neediest situations. So for example-- If Saryn uses Miasma, it'll cost her the base 100 energy. If she uses Miasma again in the next 8 seconds, it will cost 150. If she uses it again, the next cast will cost 200. If she uses it yet again, it will cost 250. And so forth.

Numbers are just placeholder, btw.

Edited November 14, 2014 by HolidayPi3

[Sifu]

This is the suggestion that's going to get you the most flak. Mind if I offer an alternative?

One of the ideas that was floating around the community awhile ago is that using your ultimate multiple times consecutively within a short time span would increase its cost for a set time (stacking). This would allow us to still spam ults, but only in our neediest situations. So for example-- If Saryn uses Miasma, it'll cost her the base 100 energy. If she uses Miasma again in the next 8 seconds, it will cost 150. If she uses it again, the next cast will cost 200. If she uses it yet again, it will cost 250. And so forth.

Numbers are just placeholder, btw.

 

I like this idea. We dont really need to cut ults... but if DE thinks they should, thats the most logical thing to do.

 

I think that 5 sec "cooldown" for energy cost increase should be fine, affecting by energy duration or efficiency mods.

[Brozime]

I actually agree with the OP of this thread completely these are all amazing solutions that I think a huge majority of us can agree on provided the numbers behind the Rep stuff are sufficient.

 

EDIT: Cooldowns would be the most controversial thing here but if the abilities were buffed to be significantly more powerful and used less I think we'd be quite happy with them

Edited November 14, 2014 by Brozime

[KracsNZ]

Hell no to cooldowns. This is a freaken action game, not damn World of Warcraft. If people want to build efficiency based spam builds let them. If people want to build power strength DPS builds fine. Game allows players to customize many frames the way they want to play. Why the hell would you want to limit options?

[(PSN)NavajoShaman]

The cool down idea is absolutely ridiculous. Really you want to change the way every person plays the game and you think this is a solution. Smh....just leave it alone. Just because an individual complains isn't a justification to nerf a warframe power. And yes adding a cooldown to an ultimate is nerfing. Have you herd the old saying a permanent solution to a temporary problem? That's what your suggesting here. Did you ever think about the way that would affect people playing t4 defense or t4 survival? Or any other high level mission? Because its powers that makes those runs possible. It seems like everytime PS4 receives an update another frame gets nerfed because a player realizes that another frame can do something better than what their favorite frame can do so they post a thread to whine about it and then everyone who has the same favorite frame jumps on the band wagon until DE nerfs another frame. GROW UP. Life isnt always fair but it seems like its gonna be awhile before you learn that.

[LascarCapable]

I move that to feedback subforums.

[-Ropefish-]

dang wut is viver? some sort of snake or something?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viver

[Blakrana]

More often than not, balance and fun are mutually exclusive. Especially in a PvE centric game.

 

You make interesting points, but I need to address this. Balance exists in any game should you know how things work, even in PvE.

 

Fact is, Balance is a misunderstood concept for a lot of people. It's not 'all items are the same'. Were that the ever the case, it's a waste of resources to make anything short of cosmetics. It's better to break things down through 3 methods:

 

1) Progression, either through your equipment, your stats, or a combination of the two. In the former, games like Monster Hunter and God Eater take the cake, personally. You don't level, but your efforts in game bring you closer to better gear, leading to harder fights and so on. Stat orientated balance are things like your Final Fantasy games, where it boils down to 'you need to be level 15 to do this area'.

 

2) Enemies provide challenges of skill. For the most part, Tactical games like Fire Emblem are your capacity to adapt. Games like Ninja Gaiden and the aforementioned Monster Hunter and God Eater have you adapt on the battlefield with new monsters or variations of old ones. Final Fantasy and other RPGs offset your powers by having enemies with resistances or attacks that completely negate or subvert some of your skills, forcing adaptation.

 

3) All options of play have validity. If you can nuke the room as a Wizard, but only deal things one at a time with a Warrior, well, that's a problem, as you wouldn't pick anything else, would you? Ergo, part of game design requires that whatever power you have, meets it's match/limits within the game. Wizards and low health/armour and limited spell reserves is a common trend.

 

It is the combination of these traits that make a PvE game 'balanced'. Even Prototype, a game where you are literally a walking force of gruesome, eldritch death, requires you to be mobile or you will be killed by bigger threats. Sure, you can blow up New York half a dozen times, but for all the power you have, you can still be killed by enough enemies you aren't giving proper attention to. Not only that, but the pure visceral nature makes the fact of being able to throw tanks and being able to still die hardly noticeable, especially once you get good at using your powers and mobility.

 

The disconnect when people hear Balance is out of the association with a flatly balanced scale. It's actually more fair to say that PvE games are a 'Balanced Imbalance'. You the player, with your skill and intelligence, are what makes the game balanced out in the end. A game designed from the outset to be 100% even split 50/50 without considering the impact of the player is likely going to be a cake walk.

 

Xykon pretty much makes the case; it isn't how strong what you have is, it's how you use it.

 

In summary: Balance is not an equal sum of scales. The nature of games arguably needs to be brought to a 'balanced imbalance' titled more towards the enemy, as this accounts for the effect the player has on the game systems. Even games rich in power fantasy require the player to have something to be aware of as a real threat, helping maintain engagement. Further, the more complex the enemy types and their interactions opens up more possible solutions to the effective problem.

 

Balance in a game is not making everything equal, but inequal in a fun, engaging way that rewards the player for overcoming challenge in the way that they deem fit. Dominant strategies will likely still exist, but if they do not overshadow other methods then it is more of a limited problem.

 

The problem Warframe seems to possess is that it struggles to find the balance between allowing for the Players to engage in power fantasy, whilst also giving a gratifying, visceral, reliable challenge; something that is a difficult line to cross but can be done, as games like Prototype have proven.

[Scryed]

Okay, everyone, stop, just STOP!!! Good lord... It's been an absolute mad house the past few days. I may have gotten myself prepared to take a break from this, but that doesn't stop me from checking in to see if the Viver problem is fixed.

 

DE, if you continue like this, not only is the Viver problem not going to be fixed, you're going to lose people. This isn't a rage thread. You liked my suggestions before. I'm going to try and help you fix this before something catastrophic happens to a game I've grown extremely fond of.

 

First off, Mag's shield polarize does not effect herself anymore. This is a huge mistake. She's already a frail frame, focusing on shields, which have always been iffy in the past as it was. Please, tell me this is a bug, is not intended and will be fixed at some point.

 

Line of sight, as I found out from helpful commenters within the community in my own thread, and you are undoubtedly finding out now, is buggy, prone to missing targets who so much as hide behind a crate, as Grineer like to do, and has approximately a 0% approval rating, from what I've seen. Please, for the love of Hayden, abandon this idea. I'm sorry I suggested it.

 

Now, suggestion time. I've had a while to think about this, and I'm going to do the same thing I did before. Suggestions and solutions, best to worst.

 

1) attach varying cooldowns to certain powers. Some powers are already effected by this directly, like Nyx' chaos and mind control (are the changes to that working, btw?). Others are effected indirectly, like Mag's pull, in that they have no effect on the target if rapidly spammed. Consider a 10-15 second cooldown on ultimates and AoEs to prevent the kind of spam that allowed Viver to become possible. If it persists still, add an additional second to the cooldown everytime an AoE power is casted within a 5 minute span.

 

2) I mentioned this before, and it got alot of positive reviews from the community. Make Syndicate rep round/time survived instead of affinity based. There already is a system in place to show how long we survived in a match. You see it next to that weird emblem thing on the extraction screen. Attach a multiplier to it, figure out the details later, give rep in relevance to that. Honestly, Syndicate reputation should function like an impress-o-meter. You need to do impressive things to gain reputation, like making it to wave 100 of a T4 defense, perhaps?

 

oh, and maybe implement a node difficulty multiplier. That way Appoloderus (or however you spell it) doesn't become the new Viver. Harder the map, the bigger the gain.

 

3) Add a rep multiplier to purchased syndicate sigils. As of right now, there's no point to buying one, save to look fancy. I know I mentioned this before, but I'm sure you've noticed how many people there are screaming that this is another grind wall. Might want to do something to make the locals happy considering 15.2.0 has the population at near revolt levels.

 

4) BLOW UP VIVER. At least for the time being. This one node has led to no end of problems, and has exacerbated many problems innate to the Warframe engine. Until something can be decided on what can be done, lock it and kick the macro farmers out.

 

I know I'm reiterating alot of what I said once before, but the path this game is taking is getting really scary to me..... let me tell you a brief tale. There is another game that went down this path called Planetside 2. Nearly every patch, things are nerfed, and made less and less effective. Is there balance? Maybe? Probably? However, this element of balance has made things largely indistinguishable from one another. Every gun feels very much the same as every other gun. They're all universally ineffective and boring. There's probably a reason why I don't play it very much anymore.

 

I found Warframe to be fun because each frame was obnoxiously overpowered in its own unique way. Mag's Shield polarize left her nearly invincible in the hands of an attentive player, Ash's blade storm was, and still is, absolutely amazing to watch, even Ember's simplistic Micheal Bay explosion approach to combat is still a wonder to behold. I'lll tell you right now, nerfs will reduce the player base, and remove fun from this game. More often than not, balance and fun are mutually exclusive. Especially in a PvE centric game.

 

I've said my peace. You listened to me once, and hopefully, this reaches your ears again. I beg you, save this game.

I hope this doesn't reach their ears because cooldowns are for MOBAS, not action games, all they need to do is tweak reputation gain, spawn rates and give line of site back, it aint effin rocket science... And since this is a PvE primarily game adding cooldowns will NERF warframes which is what you don't want.

[HAYABU5A]

as others have said cooldown idea is terrible, nobody wants cooldowns

Edited November 14, 2014 by HAYABU5A

[s7n7a7k7e]

Cooldowns will make things worse for everyone, rep farmers will just change the frame and change where they stand and those who aren't viver farming will get their "main" frame nerfed for no reason resulting in more rage.

 

I like your suggestion #3 though.

 

Agreed. I vote YES on the Rep Multipliers, and a big HELL NO to ability cooldowns.