Problem With Walls: Mesa Is Grindwall, Waitwall, Rng Wall

[Nemesis101]

Why do I feel like they are trying to play the waiting game on us with this?  There's no way they haven't seen this thread, why haven't they acknowledged this thread?

 

I dont think they are playing the waiting game, the sheer volume of posts within this forum is enough to put anyone off to be honest and the level of negativity within this forum has increased over time to a point now where i feel certain people from DE who used to read through the forums on a regular basis just dont bother any longer despite what they might imply.

If DE was going to acknowledge the feedback regarding how players are currently having to obtain Mesa, they would have done so by now or even made a conscious effort to mention something about it in their recent final devstream of this year but as usual, things are side stepped and our attention is drawn towards whatever the next thing has all the hype about, so in this case its the hubs/relays etc.

For me, the feedback on Mesa is no different to all that Kubrow feedback that was thrown back in the communities faces and the community should have learnt a valuable lesson from that.

 

Why should the bother ? :)

It's not like it cost them any money not responding and those new pay walls surely make the new investors happy.

 

And its this that worries me where future features like frames are concerned and how we will be expected to obtain them. If Mesa is a sign of how things are going to change then it makes no difference that some say they will leave or they will no longer spend money.. because for every one that leaves, others take their place, for every one that stops spending their money, theres another group of kids shouting at their parents for more money.

 

Gone are the days the majority of this communities feedback is appreciated and valued and people are only kidding themselves if they think otherwise.

Edited December 13, 2014 by Nemesis101

[StickyBaseline]

And to top it all off they gave the systems a 5% dropchance :)))))))))))))) So fun doing runs for WEEKS only to get 10 chassis and 13 helmets :))))

[Innocent_Flower]

And to top it all off they gave the systems a 5% dropchance :)))))))))))))) So fun doing runs for WEEKS only to get 10 chassis and 13 helmets :))))

For real? 

 

I was lucky. I got it in only EIGHT RUNS

 

Nobody should have to go through that. 

[hijinks_the_turtle]

I dont think they are playing the waiting game, the sheer volume of posts within this forum is enough to put anyone off to be honest and the level of negativity within this forum has increased over time to a point now where i feel certain people from DE who used to read through the forums on a regular basis just dont bother any longer despite what they might imply.

If DE was going to acknowledge the feedback regarding how players are currently having to obtain Mesa, they would have done so by now or even made a conscious effort to mention something about it in their recent final devstream of this year but as usual, things are side stepped and our attention is drawn towards whatever the next thing has all the hype about, so in this case its the hubs/relays etc.

For me, the feedback on Mesa is no different to all that Kubrow feedback that was thrown back in the communities faces and the community should have learnt a valuable lesson from that.

 

I think I would say the Syndicates were worse than the Kubrow fiasco, however I agree with your main point.  On one hand, DE shouldn't just sidestep this kind of stuff for just 'hurting their feelings'.  I know how hard it is to take criticism, especially when you get rage filled posts and other stuff. It's just that this is entirely valid feedback.  If a majority of players are upset about something, it tends to be something that needs to be fixed and not be ignored.  Just ignoring this kind of stuff makes their problems worse by having a overbearing shadow that grows among the playerbase.

 

On the other hand, it is partially our fault for making DE act this way with immature attitude overall.  We shouldn't bash them needlessly.

[blackstraykitten]

congrats guys!
this topic is now dead with no S#&$ given to it by voldemort :)

[TheDoctah]

I think I would say the Syndicates were worse than the Kubrow fiasco, however I agree with your main point.  On one hand, DE shouldn't just sidestep this kind of stuff for just 'hurting their feelings'.  I know how hard it is to take criticism, especially when you get rage filled posts and other stuff. It's just that this is entirely valid feedback.  If a majority of players are upset about something, it tends to be something that needs to be fixed and not be ignored.  Just ignoring this kind of stuff makes their problems worse by having a overbearing shadow that grows among the playerbase.

 

On the other hand, it is partially our fault for making DE act this way with immature attitude overall.  We shouldn't bash them needlessly.

I only bash DE when they make bad design choices, which update 15 seems to be filled with. The recent change to Archwing is a good example of that. Kubrow system almost as a whole needs to be looked at as they aren't really worth their upkeep costs. Players have given them a number of different ways to make it better but there hasn't been much said about it. I also don't want to hear the same tired response from them. "We'll review it" and not hear anything back from them. The grind is only getting worse and you can only wonder what they're gonna do next as far as requirements for the next warframe. This grind for Mesa was so bad it only comes off as DE purposely making it horrible so players feel forced to skip it through paying 20$ for a single warframe just so they don't have to torture themselves to get it. Hydroid wasn't a great grind, Vauban wasn't a great grind either but it was doable. Then Mesa hits and we get a combination of both. Choices like these are just bad. You don't put two things that aren't that great and put them together. It's just gonna make something that isn't great at all. This is why players are honestly wondering if DE actually pay attention to what their players are trying to tell them. I'm not saying all players are right, or even all players are going about it the right way in giving their feedback. However, there are a number of players giving great feedback that could actually help the game and DE turns around and pulls a bogus grind out of the hat. This game doesn't suck, but it's needless to say it could be much better and I don't want to see players settling for less when there could be more quality updates.

Edited December 13, 2014 by TheDoctah

[hijinks_the_turtle]

I only bash DE when they make bad design choices, which update 15 seems to be filled with. The recent change to Archwing is a good example of that. Kubrow system almost as a whole needs to be looked at as they aren't really worth their upkeep costs. Players have given them a number of different ways to make it better but there hasn't been much said about it. I also don't want to hear the same tired response from them. "We'll review it" and not hear anything back from them. The grind is only getting worse and you can only wonder what they're gonna do next as far as requirements for the next warframe. This grind for Mesa was so bad it only comes off as DE purposely making it horrible so players feel forced to skip it through paying 20$ for a single warframe just so they don't have to torture themselves to get it. Hydroid wasn't a great grind, Vauban wasn't a great grind either but it was doable. Then Mesa hits and we get a combination of both. Choices like these are just bad. You don't put two things that aren't that great and put them together. It's just gonna make something that isn't great at all. This is why players are honestly wondering if DE actually pay attention to what their players are trying to tell them. I'm not saying all players are right, or even all players are going about it the right way in giving their feedback. However, there are a number of players giving great feedback that could actually help the game and DE turns around and pulls a bogus grind out of the hat. This game doesn't suck, but it's needless to say it could be much better and I don't want to see players settling for less when there could be more quality updates.

 

I wasn't saying you were necessarily bashing needlessly.  That part was for everyone.  I agree with the part where you said if DE actually pays attention to what their players are telling them.  So many players have given awesome feedback, and almost all of it is ignored by DE who often gives us what we don't want.  Or even worse: what we wanted, but with something that absolutely kills it (aka Mesa), as you said.

 

I'm sad to say this, but it seems like DE has selective 'sight'.  Whether they know it or not, DE (and people in general) often look toward what they like to see and ignore what they don't.  Mesa's grind wall often makes me question whether if DE Steve's vivergate post was just a bunch of PR or legitimate.

 

 

congrats guys!

this topic is now dead with no S#&$ given to it by voldemort :)

It ain't dead yet till we get some real answers by DE.  Even if this topic sinks down, it will be in the back of all of our minds.

[DoomFruit]

I'm sad to say this, but it seems like DE has selective 'sight'. Whether they know it or not, DE (and people in general) often look toward what they like to see and ignore what they don't. Mesa's grind wall often makes me question whether if DE Steve's vivergate post was just a bunch of PR or legitimate.

PR. Just over a year ago, one of the Prime components was reduced to a 0.7% chance of appearing in the Void. This was pointed out to DE and very soon after, they encrypted the drop tables. They're not sorry, they're just unhappy that they got caught.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/1mrr5j/1007_datamined_reward_tables/

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/110474-an-apology

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/110507-a-reaction-to-de-sheldons-appology-and-a-small-resume-about-recent-events/

http://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/1o3jzr/1030_rewarddrop_tables_where_are_they/

[Dialgia136]

Well these points are strong and I also agree myself..

I play MMORPG's and I am very used to these types of grind games, but seriously why what the hell is this.. some games like Tera which is a grind fest isn't even as bad as this since you can grind stuff to a certain limit eg. limited to 1 dungeon per day (end game ones) but it means you have a flat chance of doing that dungeon once per day.

To obtain Mesa? hope for the reward to be present for one of the infestation invasions is out of question..

Yes patience is the key, but I myself grind like crazy and my point of view on this, is to stuff it, the worth for a warframe which takes so much obstacles to get through before you can even obtain a coord is hella sad.

I would rather grind for pvp pieces in Tera (which takes more than a month since you're limited to getting 20k points per week) than to wait all day and just hope for these coords to even be there as a reward..

[hijinks_the_turtle]

PR. Just over a year ago, one of the Prime components was reduced to a 0.7% chance of appearing in the Void. This was pointed out to DE and very soon after, they encrypted the drop tables. They're not sorry, they're just unhappy that they got caught.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/1mrr5j/1007_datamined_reward_tables/

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/110474-an-apology

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/110507-a-reaction-to-de-sheldons-appology-and-a-small-resume-about-recent-events/

http://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/1o3jzr/1030_rewarddrop_tables_where_are_they/

 

I wonder why I forgot about that.  I remember hearing about that, nasty stuff....  I guess that confirms my suspicions then. :/  I keep on forgetting that DE is first of all, a business... but to do tricks like that, to remove information from beta players of what was fair game before....  That's just keeping us in the dark, and we're testers, we are supposed to give valid feedback on Warframe.  Encrypting stuff is keeping us from that job.  

 

I question DE's experience since they rely so heavily on RNG, the problem with Warframe is that it's extremely overbearing on the entire game.  The mesa grind nearly being the forefront of this mess.  How are we supposed to give feedback if DE doesn't even talk about this stuff?

[dashashou]

I wonder why I forgot about that.  I remember hearing about that, nasty stuff....  I guess that confirms my suspicions then. :/  I keep on forgetting that DE is first of all, a business... but to do tricks like that, to remove information from beta players of what was fair game before....  That's just keeping us in the dark, and we're testers, we are supposed to give valid feedback on Warframe.  Encrypting stuff is keeping us from that job.

 

I question DE's experience since they rely so heavily on RNG, the problem with Warframe is that it's extremely overbearing on the entire game.  The mesa grind nearly being the forefront of this mess.  How are we supposed to give feedback if DE doesn't even talk about this stuff?

 

Hate to be a contrarian  here but we are not testers , this game has been out of beta for along time .  the beta shield   has been a fig leaf for such a long time . the second  that there was a plat store  that when this game became a working released game that just updated alot .

  

and they really are a business and methinks that they know that squeezing there players  with these high grind walls will net them alot of plat , maby there trying to show  a large increase in money by years end , and  figger that short term player loss is worth it for a large showing financially  ?  

[hijinks_the_turtle]

Hate to be a contrarian  here but we are not testers , this game has been out of beta for along time .  the beta shield   has been a fig leaf for such a long time . the second  that there was a plat store  that when this game became a working released game that just updated alot .

  

and they really are a business and methinks that they know that squeezing there players  with these high grind walls will net them alot of plat , maby there trying to show  a large increase in money by years end , and  figger that short term player loss is worth it for a large showing financially  ?  

 

For that definition, I do agree.  Though I'm not using the 'beta' tag as a shield to protect it.  I'm using it for the fact they are keeping stuff out of our eyes when we are still testers.  DE did say that it's still a beta and as proof, the EULA for the beta agreement in the launcher is still in the game files (courtesy of Rydian on 12/13/14):

This means the game really is still in beta.

 

As for your second part, I'd reckon they are cocky at how they are one of the most successful F2P games out there and the fame got to their heads a long time ago.  The fact they aren't acknowledging this topic at all or even talking about it on devstreams despite being a big concern really shows it.

[MaxiTB]

It's a little funny for me that some customers nowadays consider entertainment producers as friends.

Stop doing that. It's not healthy. They are not friends only because they appear like it on a stream; friends don't charge friends ;-).

Equally you are not investors or beta testers. Both are job description, both get paid.

 

DE has introduced a lot grind lately (especially the last 6 months):

- Oxium was the first ultimate RNG grind resource - only one mob, only zero to two per drop.

- Vey Hek became the first "grind 3 missions to get key for random loot drops" boss.

- Mods now have most of the time 10 levels, rarities get bumped up.

- Argon is basically a declaration of war on solo players or people without unlimited time per day at their hands.

- Archwing ... doesn't get more boring and grindy like that. Basically a mobile phone flash game.

- Syndicates is even worse grind wall then Void Trader because you need specific prime parts. At least the have no time constraint.

- Malad is now the first "grind 3 missions which a rng and time limited to get key for random loot drops" boss.

- Void Trader is a time-wall and grind-wall.

 

Yeah. Not looking good so far.

 

And I agree with other people: Free-players make up the vast majority of players. Screw them over to much, they will leave. And a game without players is no fun for paying customers (which most of the time are already upset as well, make no mistake). So those guys leave too and wonder of to the next game which is not corrupted yet.

 

F2P is not a rarity anymore. If business takes over creativity and game play is replaced by creating boring generic art pieces for sale, someone is shooting himself in the foot in the long run. Guess it doesn't matter anymore, after all, the big paycheck has been written already :-).

Edited December 16, 2014 by MaxiTB

[Jithvan]

Or I could join a squad with people who have salad v keys XD

[MaxiTB]

Or I could join a squad with people who have salad v keys XD

 

Parasites always welcome :p

 

Well, could be worse, you could be one of those bots or afk guys with MR18 doing nothing than standing around :)

Edited December 16, 2014 by MaxiTB

[hijinks_the_turtle]

Well crap guys, with the fact that DE didn't change anything at all even with all this feedback at how bad the grind is, it's been shipped out to PS4 with not even a word about the grind at all.  I guess that means we're stuck with it.  With all the stuff that's going on, all they've been doing is repeating past mistakes.  Soma Prime is MR 2, they've filled the void with Nullifiers and Bombards who should not be common enemies at all, geez I'm not even sure they even want to change anything.

 

Nevertheless, fight on.  We must not back down.

Edited December 17, 2014 by hijinks_the_turtle

[LABAL]

Fight on? You mean, keep on whining? That doesn't help any bit.
Hanlon's razor will break someday and we'll see their true colors.

[BoomyGordo]

Fight on? You mean, keep on whining? That doesn't help any bit.

Hanlon's razor will break someday and we'll see their true colors.

do you enjoy the current grind? ive got ~13 pages of people who dont. that doesnt seem like whineing to me that seems like a legitimate problem

[Squick]

It's really not that much of grindwall given how common the infestation invasions are. There were 2 coordinates in one of the invasions today and I'm sitting on top of 3 keys and I almost can't give away.

[Innocent_Flower]

Nulifiers and bombards are fine (except the lanka) 

Don't bring them into this. 

[tseng_]

and nothing happens with this topic yet?

[DoomFruit]

It's really not that much of grindwall given how common the infestation invasions are. There were 2 coordinates in one of the invasions today and I'm sitting on top of 3 keys and I almost can't give away.

Except they're not common. How often do they appear in the middle of the night when you're asleep, or during the middle of the day when you're at work?

 

So far, I've managed to run the mission 9 times due to keysharing with clanmates. I've picked up 6 helmets and 3 systems. No chassis.

 

If this were an ordinary boss, it would be a little bit frustrating, but I'd be fine with that. I'd just knuckle down and murder the boss some more. But I don't have that option here. There is no way for me to get more nav co-ordinates. I'm stuck, utterly powerless to get more parts. This is not good. Taking things out of the player's hands is a very bad game decision (see also: grineer commander switch teleport).

[Vallerian]

Yeah I gave up on farming Mesa "The Real Way"

It's far more reliable to just sell prime parts and buy Mesa straight out of the Market. Especially with how you get to keep all your Defense/Intercept rewards now, you can grind up 300 plat in just a few days.

 

Edit: Maybe it's not even such a bad thing. Having Plat float around between players with no plat tax between transitions is bad for the in-game economy. Creating plat sinks in the Market is good for the overall health of the trade system.

 

I think of Mesa as a glorified Potato, yeah you can grind her, but at some point DE's just screaming "buy me". Maybe Mesa hasn't crossed the line yet, but at this rate, something will.

Edited December 24, 2014 by Vallerian

[UTbj]

after seeing all this fuss here about this I was thinking I would never get him like Water boy but me and a friend got all parts in our first 3 runs lol guess RNG was smiling on us still got alot of keys,

[Zerathos_Dagon]

Yeah, agreed on this so much. It's getting ridiculous. But it's not only with Mesa. The entire game is slowly but surely turning into just one big grindfest hidden behind multiple walls of RNG, Chance and waiting. With the main bad guys here (among others) being prime gear and archwing equipment.

 

I loved Warframe, and I still do. But if they continue adding stuff like this to the game without implementing a solution for the dillution, and make the grindfest even bigger and harder (that's what she said), then I'll have to tone down my playtime, or stop playing Warframe alltogether.

 

The only thing they ever did that even remotely toned down this grinding hell was the addition of T4 keys, which was both a challenge and a relief of dillution. But that isn't a permanent solution. In fact, with the rate of which DE is adding new stuff, its a very, very temporary solution.