Warframe - Punishing Players For Nothing.

[LadyScootaloo]

Edit : For the sake of people who only see it from the point of view of people who have time to play the game ;

The problem(s) below are mostly for casual players.

 

While I understand the idea of difficulty and challenge, I feel there are too many concepts in Warframe that are intended to punishing players for not playing. (and also for playing too much)

It confuses challenge with punishment and difficulty with restraint.

 

I have taken awhile to attempt to come up with a nice reason for these to exist, however, all it seems to be is to discourage people from avoiding Warframe or tempting inactive players back.

 

For the purpose of this feedback, I only intend to talk of the first.

Mainly, there are two of these.

 

1) Argon Decay

2) Kubrow Death

 

---------------------

 

Why do they exist?

Is Argon supposed to punish players for not playing?

If it were just 'as an incentive to play more', why does it have to punish instead of reward?

The concept of argon decay is simply brutish in what it does.

 

Even limiting the amount of argon we can get a day would be more logical. (though highly unpopular with farmers)

It's already part of the foundry-based time wall. What purpose does it serve to hurt your casual players?

 

There are better ways to encourage play as Argon does. Perhaps multiple void runs or extended period of void runs will provide some sort of minor bonus to gameplay? If it is also meant to avoid being rewarding as a concept, it could at least be altered to allow some slightly-menial cost to 'maintain' Argon. Perhaps a credit sink?

 

People WANT to take breaks and come back. Why punish us for that?

Edited December 2, 2014 by LadyScootaloo

[JohnProdman]

Gimmicks to get people to login more often and play more are common.

 

Welcome to free-to-play gaming.

[BunnieBox]

Better than they didn't make Alad V nav expire.

New Update always give me headache, maybe I'll quit this game for years and play it again, it's very bad update after update 14-15.

Worst update in 14-15.

15.2.2(?)

Viver and Frame nerfs.

Excal nerfs to LoS

Mag nerfs and she's the worse frame in game.

Trinity nerf LoS

They sorry us and revert then remove viver.

15.5

New update forcing player to play event for 30 mins to get mods?

This's like impossible with that high levels,

NOT ONLY THAT, 3 bloody in one update with Survival is too much unplayable even press 4 to win startegy doesn't even work.

Bring back old times DE ,I just don't like new update, it bringing me back like old games that I've played.

(I wouldn't tell the game name.)

Just hate new update, no flaming war here..

[crafturtoemc]

^ +1...thats true...

[Orbister]

Gimmicks to get people to login more often and play more are common.

 

Welcome to free-to-play gaming.

That fact that those practices are "common" doesn't justify them. If the game is fun people will log in, simple as that.

Edited December 2, 2014 by Orbister

[StinkyPygmy]

Call me crazy but neither of those bother me.

Kubrow death is easy to avoid: Put the damn thing in the freezer. Recovery time? Eh, I just use a sentinel till its ready. I know the recovery mechanic isn't ideal but its not a big deal either.

 

Argon decay doesn't bother me but I'm pretty lucky when it comes to argon. Always got 4 or more lying around and I don't hang around the void a much as a lot of players. To be honest I just find it mostly really bothers players that are too impatient.

Its kind of irritating granted, but I don't think its "punishing" or as bad as others feel it is.

 

just my two cents.

Edited December 2, 2014 by StinkyPygmy

[letir]

That fact that those practices are "common" doesn't justify them. If the game is fun people will log in, simple as that.

They will log in and log out as they wish. This isn't good for any game, esp for F2P. Any reason to come and stay is useful.

Edited December 2, 2014 by letir

[Esleyer]

1. No one forcing no one to play the game.

 

2. Warframe doesn't even comes CLOSE to what other F2P games do. Archeage

 

3. You can stasis your Kubrow at any time.

 

4. Argon crystals are easy as hell to get. Do void survival 2+ and you'll get lots of it.

 

5. Argons are meant for players not stockpiling everything and to require some effort to build new weapons.

 

6. DE recognized that the changes to Excal/Trin/Mag LoS were bad, and reverted it - what more you want from them? Show me another company that done it.

[Tsukinoki]

The reason argon crystals exist and decay is simple:
DE was tired of people coming to the forums after tenno reinforcement updates and going "Got a new weapon BP and built it within minutes of the update and there is nothing to do!"

So DE put in a resource that you *cant* stockpile, and if you want to build it you actually have to spend some time playing to be able to build the weapon.
You cant just buy the BP and immediately build it in the foundry.

It has nothing to do with punishing people who take breaks.
It simply exists so that we have a resource that we can't stockpile in massive amounts to instantly build everything.

That is the entire reason behind the decay timer.
And I think that it works quite well in that regard.

As for kubrow death:
That was explained ahead of time and is easy to avoid.
DE put it in for two main reasons:

1) A credit sink.
Honestly once you've been playing this game for a while you're soon sitting on millions of credits and absolutely nothing to spend them on.  And tons of people complaining that there are too many credits and no use for them.
So the Kubrow require DNA Stabilizers which act as a fairly decent credit sink to mid-level players.
Once you get in the void its 5 missions at the most though and you can buy another pack of stabilizers and they last you for a very long time.

2) To give players a reason to regularly log in.
Its actually been proven in quite a few games that buy giving the players something to take care of, like a pet, that it increases how often players log in and does actually increase player retention by a noticeable amount.


And I'm honestly not upset in the least by any of these.

[LadyScootaloo]

Call me crazy but neither of those bother me.

Kubrow death is easy to avoid: Put the damn thing in the freezer. Recovery time? Eh, I just use a sentinel till its ready. I know the recovery mechanic isn't ideal but its not a big deal either.

 

Argon decay doesn't bother me but I'm pretty lucky when it comes to argon. Always got 4 or more lying around and I don't hang around the void a much as a lot of players. To be honest I just find it mostly really bothers players that are too impatient.

Its kind of irritating granted, but I don't think its "punishing" or as bad as others feel it is.

 

just my two cents.

 

How about the people limited to 1-2 hours every other day?

I will agree that when I was playing with more time on my hands, it was definitely not a big deal. That's the part that bothers me most.

It's only punishing casuals. Regulars don't really feel it.

[KirukaChan]

Better than they didn't make Alad V nav expire.

New Update always give me headache, maybe I'll quit this game for years and play it again, it's very bad update after update 14-15.

Worst update in 14-15.

15.2.2(?)

Viver and Frame nerfs.

Excal nerfs to LoS

Mag nerfs and she's the worse frame in game.

Trinity nerf LoS

They sorry us and revert then remove viver.

15.5

New update forcing player to play event for 30 mins to get mods?

This's like impossible with that high levels,

NOT ONLY THAT, 3 bloody in one update with Survival is too much unplayable even press 4 to win startegy doesn't even work.

Bring back old times DE ,I just don't like new update, it bringing me back like old games that I've played.

(I wouldn't tell the game name.)

Just hate new update, no flaming war here..

 

"Press 4 to win" isn't a strategy, it's a faceroll. I'm glad the new event couldn't be facerolled. Me and my favorite guy actually had to come up with a real strategy. I had to bust out a weapon I hadn't used in months and a frame that I would normally never consider for Survival.

[StinkyPygmy]

How about the people limited to 1-2 hours every other day?

I will agree that when I was playing with more time on my hands, it was definitely not a big deal. That's the part that bothers me most.

It's only punishing casuals. Regulars don't really feel it.

Ok fair point, but its still a matter of just waiting it out.

So what if you don't have the latest weapon etc that needs argon straight away?

 

You know how long its taken me to get mag prime?

Or a bunch of other stuff I want? I still don't have half of it.

Sure, none of them need argon, but the principle is the same. Its not really any different to farming for a prime part.

Try and grab argon ahead of time and even casual players shouldn't have too much trouble.

 

That being said I understand why argon decay really bothers some players, however I have absolutely no sympathy for players that hate the concept of kubrow death. Its really not hard to look after one, even as a casual player.

Edited December 2, 2014 by StinkyPygmy

[LadyScootaloo]

1. No one forcing no one to play the game.

 

2. Warframe doesn't even comes CLOSE to what other F2P games do. Archeage

 

3. You can stasis your Kubrow at any time.

 

4. Argon crystals are easy as hell to get. Do void survival 2+ and you'll get lots of it.

 

5. Argons are meant for players not stockpiling everything and to require some effort to build new weapons.

 

6. DE recognized that the changes to Excal/Trin/Mag LoS were bad, and reverted it - what more you want from them? Show me another company that done it.

 

Just because it is 'better' does not make it 'okay'.

No, Warframe is definitely not as bad, though as far as moralities go, they're not far off.

 

The fact DE wants to delay content (i.e. argon anti-stockpile) is not a valid excuse to inconvenience players to do so. That's as bad as the DRM argument. There are (clearly and mentioned) much better ways to avoid this without being a direct influence of how we can enjoy the game.

"There are people cracking our games. We should force everyone to play online". <- DRM argument.

 

Kubrow Stasis is the 'this is how you don't get punished' part. It's basically meant as yet another form of content delay.

Though it does NOTHING to help the game. I can understand limiting to one kubrow active at any time.

I can understand additional stasis pod needing purchase. The punishment for not putting your kubrow away is pointless to all ends.

It has not served any productive function. (unless annoying and forcing rage-quits is somehow productive to the game)

 

 

 

 

 

 

The reason argon crystals exist and decay is simple:

DE was tired of people coming to the forums after tenno reinforcement updates and going "Got a new weapon BP and built it within minutes of the update and there is nothing to do!"

So DE put in a resource that you *cant* stockpile, and if you want to build it you actually have to spend some time playing to be able to build the weapon.

You cant just buy the BP and immediately build it in the foundry.

It has nothing to do with punishing people who take breaks.

It simply exists so that we have a resource that we can't stockpile in massive amounts to instantly build everything.

That is the entire reason behind the decay timer.

And I think that it works quite well in that regard.

As for kubrow death:

That was explained ahead of time and is easy to avoid.

DE put it in for two main reasons:

1) A credit sink.

Honestly once you've been playing this game for a while you're soon sitting on millions of credits and absolutely nothing to spend them on.  And tons of people complaining that there are too many credits and no use for them.

So the Kubrow require DNA Stabilizers which act as a fairly decent credit sink to mid-level players.

Once you get in the void its 5 missions at the most though and you can buy another pack of stabilizers and they last you for a very long time.

2) To give players a reason to regularly log in.

Its actually been proven in quite a few games that buy giving the players something to take care of, like a pet, that it increases how often players log in and does actually increase player retention by a noticeable amount.

And I'm honestly not upset in the least by any of these.

 

I won't even argue this. You actually know all the points. Here's the thing.

The one truth is that the concepts chooses to inconvenience us to make the game last longer.

Inconveniences exist in a game, it has to. I can fully understand the idea of limiting stockpiles being 'necessary to keep content stable'.

Yet the fact it punishes casual players remains. There must be a better alternative to this.

I'll gladly spit it out if I think of anything. For now, all I can say is that it IS an inconvenience.

 One that they choose to stick us with despite the problem having been theirs.

 

Now that you've essentially explained what the Kubrows are meant to be, tell me how the feedback was.

It's an inconvenience to many players that DE thinks it is not a punishment, but a feature. I am here to say it is otherwise.

Feel free to tell me that you don't think it's a problem. My argument stands, unfortunately for me.

 

 

 

 

They will log in and log out as they wish. This isn't good for any game, esp for F2P. Any reason to come and stay is useful.

 

That mindset is what encouraged a lot of people to quit. More than 50% of the community, if I'm not much mistaken.

The ones who remain either 'don't care' or 'find it annoying'. I can't find many people who actually think 'that's nice'.

[LadyScootaloo]

Ok fair point, but its still a matter of just waiting it out.

So what if you don't have the latest weapon etc that needs argon straight away?

 

You know how long its taken me to get mag prime?

Or a bunch of other stuff I want? I still don't have half of it.

Sure, none of them need argon, but the principle is the same. Its not really any different to farming for a prime part.

Try and grab argon ahead of time and even casual players shouldn't have too much trouble.

 

That being said I understand why argon decay really bothers some players, however I have absolutely no sympathy for players that hate the concept of kubrow death. Its really not hard to look after one, even as a casual player.

 

It is because Kubrow death is considered a feature.

"Take care of it or it dies, regardless."

This is then left almost entirely to the player with only the bare minimum to explain that it can die.

No prevention if one fails to notice.

 

While I agree it is still one's fault for having a stupid kubrow without knowing how in the first place, I can't see this as a good 'feature'.

It has done NOTHING but inconvenience us for the sake of being a feature.

They could have even made it more fun like making the Kubrow less responsive in combat at 0% and take a long time/lot to recover/will not enter stasis while in this mode.

 

Whether you take this from me as saying DE has no imagination or that they're not fussy about how they resolve their own problems, this IS a pointless inconvenience. (I don't use kubrows anymore, though I've yet to have one die)

 

.@edit ; To the argon part...

You know at this point what you're doing is making excuses for the inconvenience, right?

I could make the same type of excuses for purging weak people. The only difference is ethical viewpoints and morality.

The fact that it isn't entirely unbearable doesn't actually mean that it isn't an annoying inconvenience that has convinced many players to just quit altogether. (as well as having no effect on everyone who doesn't care)

 

No company ever gives us the numbers to 'how many people have (re-)quit/(re-)joined during a period of a particular update' for good reason.

It's demoralizing to look at most of the time, even taking out the expected quit/join rates for any game.

 

A problem is a problem. Just because there's ways around it doesn't make it any more of a 'feature' than it was.

A game has a glitch that has no productive value, though it isn't something we can't get around easily.

Is that a feature?

Edited December 2, 2014 by LadyScootaloo

[DSpite]

How about the people limited to 1-2 hours every other day?

I will agree that when I was playing with more time on my hands, it was definitely not a big deal. That's the part that bothers me most.

It's only punishing casuals. Regulars don't really feel it.

 

There is only one item that requires 3 Argon, the rest are 2 or 1. You prepare ahead of time the gear you need so you only miss the Argon, then make a a couple of Void runs, get the Argon and build it.

 

I don't understand the problem.

 

The mechanic is just there so you can't stockpile it.

[KirukaChan]

Suggestion for Kubrows dying: instead of death, when their health reaches -100%, they get auto-stasis'd. You then cannot bring the Kubrow back out of stasis until you use enough DNA Stabilizers on it (which can, at that point, be done through the Stasis screen) in order to bring its health back up past 0% (in other words, 3 Stabilizers).

 

Still a credit sink, still reason to not want to let the Kubrow reach -100% (since it would need to be brought out of stasis after being Stabilized if this happened, meaning 3 hour wait time), but considerably less punishing for players who don't/can't log in as often.

[LadyScootaloo]

There is only one item that requires 3 Argon, the rest are 2 or 1. You prepare ahead of time the gear you need so you only miss the Argon, then make a a couple of Void runs, get the Argon and build it.

 

I don't understand the problem.

 

The mechanic is just there so you can't stockpile it.

 

The fact it has a job to help DE avoid us stockpiling doesn't actually mean it isn't an inconvenience to us.

Yes, admittedly the stockpiling issue is a problem FOR DE/WARFRAME to survive with.

Why are WE the ones stuck with it as a 'feature'?

 

If all it took was a way 'around' a pointless problem for you to not see it anymore, perhaps some reconsideration.

Why do we even have that problem? Because DE needs to stop stockpiling.

 

WE have to put up with it.

You'll either not care or you'll hate it. Where is the part where we like it? Where does it serve to improve our experience?

(or at least not hinder it)

 

Suggestion for Kubrows dying: instead of death, when their health reaches -100%, they get auto-stasis'd. You then cannot bring the Kubrow back out of stasis until you use enough DNA Stabilizers on it (which can, at that point, be done through the Stasis screen) in order to bring its health back up past 0% (in other words, 3 Stabilizers).

 

Still a credit sink, still reason to not want to let the Kubrow reach -100% (since it would need to be brought out of stasis after being Stabilized if this happened, meaning 3 hour wait time), but considerably less punishing for players who don't/can't log in as often.

 

Very nice suggestion. Would you mind if I quote this on the first post?

Edited December 2, 2014 by LadyScootaloo

[ndantony]

...

2. Warframe doesn't even comes CLOSE to what other F2P games do. Archeage

...

LOL Archage. That game is a joke on so many aspects; and at best it's giving F2P industry a bad name. To me that game should be called free to "scam" game, not even close to an actual F2P game for ANY comparison to ANY F2P games.

[rockscl]

Argon just gives more emotional value to the crafted weapon, and farming argon before the rest of mats is plainly bad planification, the game, if at all, is punishing for not getting some info before crafting that lovely weapon

[Azawarau]

Well Stasis knocks your second point out of the park

[letir]

That mindset is what encouraged a lot of people to quit. More than 50% of the community, if I'm not much mistaken.

The ones who remain either 'don't care' or 'find it annoying'. I can't find many people who actually think 'that's nice'.

Where did you get this information?

[LadyScootaloo]

Well Stasis knocks your second point out of the park

 

I'm a bit tired of repeating it, so I'll copy-paste.

 

"Kubrow Stasis is the 'this is how you don't get punished' part. It's basically meant as yet another form of content delay

Though it does NOTHING to help the game. I can understand limiting to one kubrow active at any time.

I can understand additional stasis pod needing purchase. The punishment for not putting your kubrow away is pointless to all ends.

It has not served any productive function. (unless annoying and forcing rage-quits is somehow productive to the game)"

 

Someone mentioned it was a credit sink, though admittedly for DE to just add something that annoys us as it eats credits should be considered an inconvenience to us.

[LadyScootaloo]

Where did you get this information?

 

For the quit rate, it's nothing more than an assumption based of several cases. Though given all things since beta, this is a very likely reason, among the others.

 

 

 

 

 

Argon just gives more emotional value to the crafted weapon, and farming argon before the rest of mats is plainly bad planification, the game, if at all, is punishing for not getting some info before crafting that lovely weapon

I have time to do a few missions every few days.

Am I supposed to ONLY farm argon now?

I literally lose all the argon I might have gotten for nothing more than... emotional value?

Whatever purpose it serves the game, it is NOTHING but an inconvenience to me.

 

I have crafted every weapon except one until the recent updates that introduced mastery rank 18.

No, it is NOT some sort of "WE CANT GET AROUND THIS PROBLEM" type of inconvenience.

It STILL, however, proves a pointless inconvenience for many. (for those it doesn't, they don't even care. Like you.)

Edited December 2, 2014 by LadyScootaloo

[rockscl]

 

 

I have time to do a few missions every few days.

Am I supposed to ONLY farm argon now?

I literally lose all the argon I might have gotten for nothing more than... emotional value?

 

Just gather the argon in the last place, thats all, and argon is actually easy to get, compared to plastids, rubedo or some semi rare stuff like these, you have to make a single run for 2-3 argon, where for rubedo you should make more than 5 runs in order to gather enough, the only orokin science part of it is that argon wont last, thats why you go and gather it in the last place, 1 t2 void run is enough, if you dont have the key, ask for a "T2 taxi pls" in the recruit channel

Edited December 2, 2014 by rockscl

[Liminal]

Argon is okay. Mostly. Then you get the Halikar which for some reason costs 500 oxium in addition to argon. I wonder how long it will take until we get something that requires 5 argon. Or 2 argon and 6 neural sensors. I hope I'm wrong.

 

Kubrow degradation is the kind of stuff I refuse to get into, just like farming stuff to make keys to go fight bosses. That's hiding/burying/making game content inconvenient, and I won't put up with that. Login rewards are the way to go, and if they are not getting the job done either players simply don't want to play or the rewards are bad.

 

Carrot > stick every time for player retention.