Syndicate Weapons "pay-To-Win"?

[elele]

Have no problem with "p2w" in a PVE game. In fact, buying reactors/catalysts/frame & weapon slots already makes the game p2w. 

 

But I DO have a problem with "continuously pay to win". Affinity boosters are not permanent. You have to constantly buy them to maintain that Syndicate augment boost. 

 

It makes the boost essentially a rental. I freaking hate f2p games that have a rental system. 

[TentownsRaid]

Sadly in my honest opinion you can farm for what you want in this game. You want a booster farm a few days for the plat,then when you have it farm some more tis a vicious cycle which I don't mind it's better then a lot of other F2P games.Nothing overpowered is truly locked behind a pay wall for this game you can always farm for what you want.

[Azawarau]

No. It doesn't.

 

Pay-to-win is any advantage you gain by spending actual money.

It literally isnt that

 

Thats the definition of players who are unwilling or unable to pay and are sour about those who can

 

Pay to win is something that offers significant advantages over no paying players such as accessing content or gear that can only be bought and not earned, excluding aesthetics

 

In some cases paying to advance faster can be pay2win but warframe is far from this

[Flamingfighter]

Sadly in my honest opinion you can farm for what you want in this game. You want a booster farm a few days for the plat,then when you have it farm some more tis a vicious cycle which I don't mind it's better then a lot of other F2P games.Nothing overpowered is truly locked behind a pay wall for this game you can always farm for what you want.

This isn't a solid item to get, the affinity boost for this particular weapon is the issue. As it stands, by having an affinity boost, you are able to release a very powerful (due to level scaling) radial damage blast 2x-4x faster than those without the affinity booster. A significant damage advantage. Farming can't overcome this wall.

 

 

Have no problem with "p2w" in a PVE game. In fact, buying reactors/catalysts/frame & weapon slots already makes the game p2w. 

 

But I DO have a problem with "continuously pay to win". Affinity boosters are not permanent. You have to constantly buy them to maintain that Syndicate augment boost. 

 

It makes the boost essentially a rental. I freaking hate f2p games that have a rental system. 

I'll disagree on a couple of points here, but it seems that we are both in agreement, that whether rental or paying for a buff, applying booster effects quite literally to damage output may be a bad oversight.

 

 

 

 

Pay to win is something that offers significant advantages over no paying players such as accessing content or gear that can only be bought and not earned, excluding aesthetics

 

 

Then we are in agreement, because being able to use a level scaling damage blast that restores health, shields, energy, etc. much more often and more quickly than non-paying players is a significant advantage.

[RexRgisIocus]

Farm primes and rare mods, trade them, buy affinity boost without paying a cent. Now you stand on equal ground. Problem Solved.

[DSpite]

The issue is, and what the devs have avoided before, is that no matter how much a non-payer tries, they will never be able to bridge the gap with their paying counterparts in this respect.  Everybody wants to get access to being able to do as much damage as possible, but only those that pay are currently able to hit that max in regards to Syndicate weapons. Syndicate weapons are can be used as powerful weapons and the Sancti have held me over when enemies got into the hundreds, but with an affinity booster I'm able to utilize the Sanctis much better than those without the affinity booster, and it isn't a question of skill, either.

 

The game being PvE focused doesn't change this. It doesn't change that there is an advantage gap. Why do you think DE has been trying to walk the fine line, preventing any bonuses of this type from getting into the game, preventing paying players from getting any advantage other than time? Their leniency in these regards is a factor that helps draw in new players, but new players won't want to stick around if they find out they have to pay money in order to automatically get better in certain parts of the game.

 

It seems pretty obvious that this was an oversight on their part, one that can be fixed pretty easily (I believe). My reasoning for making this thread was simply to bring it to attention, because DE can't find the oversight if no one talks about it.

 

What?

 

Who the hell cares. Apart from you, that is.

 

This game is even more lackadaisical then Borderlands. I could have players walking in my mission that just sit on Spammed Energy Restores dropping Ults every 10 seconds for the entire game, and I would not even blink funny; you finish that, you get into another game and keep playing.

 

"Worrying" about other players having something better then you in this game makes as much sense as caring that your mates have more expensive watches. Even loot here means squat when all the drops are shared.

 

You want a game where balance actually means something, go check out EvE Online.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

The issue is, and what the devs have avoided before, is that no matter how much a non-payer tries, they will never be able to bridge the gap with their paying counterparts in this respect.  Everybody wants to get access to being able to do as much damage as possible, but only those that pay are currently able to hit that max in regards to Syndicate weapons.

 

If we're arguing on principle here, rare containers can drop affinity boosters. Now granted these don't last very long and are hard to get, but free players *can* get affinity boosters without braving trade chat.

[quan256]

@OP: Next time please do some research before opening your piehole.

 

Does it give you an unfair advantage and can only be accessible with real money?

 

- You can buy syndicate weapon by farming rep. So No

 

Oh and people with platinum having advantage? Tough S#&$, son.

Edited December 3, 2014 by quan256

[Flamingfighter]

What?

 

Who the hell cares. Apart from you, that is.

 

This game is even more lackadaisical then Borderlands. I could have players walking in my mission that just sit on Spammed Energy Restores dropping Ults every 10 seconds for the entire game, and I would not even blink funny; you finish that, you get into another game and keep playing.

 

"Worrying" about other players having something better then you in this game makes as much sense as caring that your mates have more expensive watches. Even loot here means squat when all the drops are shared.

 

You want a game where balance actually means something, go check out EvE Online.

 

Even if I'm the only one (which other voices have confirmed I am not), this does not invalidate my right to give feedback on a perceived oversight in game mechanics.

 

One of the things I personally like about games, and If somebody tells me I'm the only one I will surely cry, is a sense of progression. I like the sense of getting stronger as I play over time, and one of the big draws of Warframe has been that everyone is able to progress to the same level. Virtually every item except founder exclusives (and event items unless they open the vault again). You are able to pick up the same mods as paying players, the same resources, rack up just as much experience, and hit the same level cap on gear. The only difference between payers and non-payers is time saved through boosters, and cosmetics.

 

Sure, you may see somebody with an affinity booster getting to the high levels faster, but you don't care because with a little more hard work you can get to that level, and you can sit there and spam your energy restores and 4 abilities just as much as a paying player even if you haven't spent a dollar.

 

Maybe it's just personal interpretation, but your response comes off as rude and condescending. I made a thread, paraphrased saying "Hey, DE, I think this feature may have been an oversight, maybe you can fix it because people can easily interpret this as the beginnings of a pay-to-win formula (and evidently already have) and I know that might be something you wanted to avoid". Then I get told to go play some other game instead of worrying about possible oversights and potential balance issues in this one. I like this game, and I want to pre-empt potential issues before we have 54 weapon mods and 18 weapons that have very real in-game mechanic bonuses that you can only get by paying.

 

 

If we're arguing on principle here, rare containers can drop affinity boosters. Now granted these don't last very long and are hard to get, but free players *can* get affinity boosters without braving trade chat.

 

I'll give you this, the rare containers did do some to help bridge the gap, my only problem is that they become immediately active for their temporary effects. Whereas with Orcas, Oreos, forma, etc. the effects are one-time, but they are permanent. Affinity is temporary and you can't really control whether it is going or not. If you could, I'd probably care a lot less, because you can save them for the tougher missions where you can best utilize their effects.

 

 

@OP: Next time please do some research before opening your piehole.

 

Does it give you an unfair advantage and can only be accessible with real money?

 

- You can buy syndicate weapon by farming rep. So No

 

Oh and people with platinum having advantage? Tough S#&$, son.

 

This contradicts DE's own expressed desire to have a free-to-play game that did not go in the "you have to pay in order to get in-game advantages" type of game. I am giving feedback in response to this. The weapons themselves are not the issue, please read where the weapons are more useful if you pay plat for affinity boosters. It's a simple fix, why is everyone so rude about a fix suggestion? I'm open to criticism and debate, but there are more constructive ways to do it.

[Vance.Stubbs]

it's not "pay-to-win", it's "pay-for-a-booster-to-grind-less".

[Sloan441]

There's no win in this game.

 

Not sure what the hell you're paying for.

[quan256]

 

This contradicts DE's own expressed desire to have a free-to-play game that did not go in the "you have to pay in order to get in-game advantages" type of game. I am giving feedback in response to this. The weapons themselves are not the issue, please read where the weapons are more useful if you pay plat for affinity boosters. It's a simple fix, why is everyone so rude about a fix suggestion? I'm open to criticism and debate, but there are more constructive ways to do it.

 

The booster is there for conveninent not advantage. You pay for convenient. Paying platinum doesn't make you any stronger than other players. If you think convenient is advantage, then you should stop playing online games.

 

Also this

 

There's no win in this game.

Edited December 3, 2014 by quan256

[Flamingfighter]

it's not "pay-to-win", it's "pay-for-a-booster-to-grind-less".

I'm not talking about weapons themselves, just certain effects that are boosted by affinity.

 

Let me amend with what I think is a reasonable comparative example. Two players have Saryn. One has a special kind of booster, one does not. The person with this booster can cast Miasma and, with this booster, it costs only 50 energy without the use of efficiency mods. The person without the booster has the regular standard of only being able to cast it at 100 energy without the use of efficiency mods. Person with the booster has a special advantage regarding power efficiency that the other player can not get without plat paying.

 

The issue is not how Saryn herself is picked up, but rather an issue with boosters surrounding a certain aspect of her.

 

 

There's no win in this game.

 

Not sure what the hell you're paying for.

 

Then "Pay-to-better".

 

 

The booster is there for conveninent not advantage. You pay for convenient. Paying platinum doesn't make you any stronger than other players. If you think convenient is advantage, then you should stop playing online games.

 

Not against paying for convenience, but the convenience offered has been convenience of time. Warframe has not prided itself in offering what essentially amounts to extra damage bonuses on top of weapons because somebody has payed for it, only ways to get and level that weapon a little bit faster than everyone else.

Edited December 3, 2014 by Flamingfighter

[Sloan441]

I'd argue that you're not even going to get "better".

 

You can buy plat, cadge enough BoltorP components to build one from your fellow travelers, then still get schooled by someone else running a multi-forma Soma, Grak, or, hell, even a BratonP. Did they pay to win? Hell no.

 

What they did--and you did not--is put the time in to get better. You can't really buy that. You can buy a BoltorP, but you may not have the mods to optimize it and you won't have 4 forma in it.

 

So you're not "winning" anything. Heck, you're not even really any better. All you did is save the time farming the weapon up in the first place.

 

That's it. You save a couple of hours. That's all you've done.

[Ronyn]

Pay-to-win is any advantage you gain by spending actual money.

 

The point is, it's an advantage that paying players get, that non-paying players can't obtain.

 

Then we are in agreement, because being able to use a level scaling damage blast that restores health, shields, energy, etc. much more often and more quickly than non-paying players is a significant advantage.

 

 

What if I trade stuff I earned in game to other players for platinum then spend that platinum to get affinity boosters?

I get the advantage having never spent a cent of my own money.

So I don't HAVE to spend money to get those exact same advantages.

 

Reality check-ever since DE added the ability to trade things for platinum there are very few non-cosmetic things in Warframe that cannot also be earned through in game play. All money does is lessen required playtime.

 

Not against paying for convenience, but the convenience offered has been convenience of time.

Then there is no problem here.

Edited December 3, 2014 by Ronyn

[Cpl_Facehugger]

I'll give you this, the rare containers did do some to help bridge the gap, my only problem is that they become immediately active for their temporary effects. Whereas with Orcas, Oreos, forma, etc. the effects are one-time, but they are permanent. Affinity is temporary and you can't really control whether it is going or not. If you could, I'd probably care a lot less, because you can save them for the tougher missions where you can best utilize their effects.

 

Here's the issue: If free players can get the same advantage without having to pay, it's not P2W. Full stop.

Now you could argue it's unfair to free players that they have to rely on RNG to get the same advantages that paying customers do, but warframe's monetization strategy is pay4convenience and pay2avoidRNG, so we're quibbling over degrees here...

Edited December 3, 2014 by Cpl_Facehugger

[Madek-]

Maybe those effect would work better if they could active after tot kills, so everyone would be happy

[TheErebus.]

Pay to win?
No.

 

Pay for convenience.

Yup.

[BrazilianJoe]

If the affinity booster causes the syndicate weapon to fire up twice as fast, then it's technically - but barely - pay-to-win. 

Still, it's goes the wrong way, and should be changed/fixed, so that all weapons fire the special effects at the same rate for all players. 

[Flamingfighter]

 

 

 

 

What if I trade stuff I earned in game to other players for platinum then spend that platinum to get affinity boosters?

I get the advantage having never spent a cent of my own money.

So I don't HAVE to spend money to get those exact same advantages.

 

Reality check-ever since DE added the ability to trade things for platinum there are very few non-cosmetic things in Warframe that cannot also be earned through in game play. All money does is lessen required playtime.

 

Then there is no problem here.

 

 

Which is arguable, but having to continuously spend plat just to make a weapon (and maybe soon multiple weapons) more useful than it is without continuous spending. I'll go with what another poster said earlier, it's like constantly having to rent out your weapon if you want to be more efficient with it.

To me, convenience of time is not the same thing as convenience of damage. These Syndicate weapon mods allow damage bonuses for those that are willing to continuously "rent" that power. Even if you spend all of your time farming for prime parts just so you can keep affording the rental, the fact that you have to rent, and the fact that renting is necessary for full damage is ludicrous, especially after all the work put into getting the weapon in the first place (or if you spent a lot of plat on it in Trade Channel, coming soon).

Edited December 3, 2014 by Flamingfighter

[Flamingfighter]

Maybe those effect would work better if they could active after tot kills, so everyone would be happy

 

 

If the affinity booster causes the syndicate weapon to fire up twice as fast, then it's technically - but barely - pay-to-win. 

Still, it's goes the wrong way, and should be changed/fixed, so that all weapons fire the special effects at the same rate for all players. 

 

Right, this seems an oversight, all I'm suggesting here is that the oversight be corrected. Kill count, using only unboosted affinity, etc. are all quick and easy ways to solve this issue, I'm not sure why people are against this small fix.

[Ronyn]

Which is arguable, but having to continuously spend plat just to make a weapon (and maybe soon multiple weapons) more useful than it is without continuous spending. I'll go with what another poster said earlier, it's like constantly having to rent out your weapon if you want to be more efficient with it.

To me, convenience of time is not the same thing as convenience of damage. These Syndicate weapon mods allow damage bonuses for those that are willing to continuously "rent" that power. Even if you spend all of your time farming for prime parts just so you can keep affording the rental, the fact that you have to rent, and the fact that renting is necessary for full damage is ludicrous, especially after all the work put into getting the weapon in the first place (or if you spent a lot of plat on it in Trade Channel, coming soon).

The main point I am trying to make is that no matter how you slice it these bonuses can be earned in game.

So they cannot be looked at advantages only for those who pay. No debate about that.

 

Now does that make it like renting power? One could view it that way. Of course it could also be viewed the same way as having to keep putting gas in a car. I honestly don't care to argue over how one views that kind of thing. I just don't want to see any inaccuracy on what truly requires real money and what does not.

 

For the record: I tend to make hundreds of platinum per months with regular play time, pretty basic goals and maybe one or two days out of that month where I bother to actually trade. Keeping a constant booster is not something I consider particularly expensive to maintain.

 

All that aside-

If DE changed the way these syndicate blasts worked that would be cool with me. 

[ObviousLee]

i think the best question i can currently ask is: does it genuinely matter?

[S1L3NT_W0LF]

OP is 100% spot on. The fact that affinity gained through the booster effects the triggering of these abilities/powers gives this game a Pay 2 Win element that was pretty much nonexistent in earlier versions of this game. Not to mention that these Syndicate weapons will probably become a requirement for PvP as a result.
All that being said, I don't think the entire system of affinity being the trigger for these effects is a problem (even in PvP) just make the booster bonus not apply to the weapon's power. BAM! Problem solved.

[Flamingfighter]

The main point I am trying to make is that no matter how you slice it these bonuses can be earned in game.

So they cannot be looked at advantages only for those who pay. No debate about that.

 

Now does that make it like renting power? One could view it that way. Of course it could also be viewed the same way as having to keep putting gas in a car. I honestly don't care to argue over how one views that kind of thing. I just don't want to see any inaccuracy on what truly requires real money and what does not.

 

For the record: I tend to make hundreds of platinum per months with regular play time, pretty basic goals and maybe one or two days out of that month where I bother to actually trade. Keeping a constant booster is not something I consider particularly expensive to maintain.

 

All that aside-

If DE changed the way these syndicate blasts worked that would be cool with me. 

So in the end we agree that maybe a change in the way these blasts are triggered may be something to move forward with. Then there isn't really any need to argue over the other stuff if we agree on the main idea. Let's just agree to disagree on Pay-to-win(better) semantics and focus on "Maybe this should be changed" part we can agree on.