Tactic Selections - Putting A Stop To Macro Farming, Rng And Grind Walls

[AlphaHorseman]

Yep Alpha that is what the description mentions and that is how I intended it to be understood too. The percentage of XP you can get is based on how much of the mission was completed using the chosen Tactic and if it is completed with less than 50%, players do not get the end reward.

Or possibly fail the mission..could be too harsh not sure.

If you find a disruptive player in a PUB game, simply change the setting to Invite Only reforming the squad without that player and then recruit a new 4th from the recruiting chat tab.

I don't run tower keys with randoms unless we first discuss the plan prior to launch and all agree on it. The randoms I run with all come from recruiting and are less random than what you get in a Pub game.

Genrising, would I be correct in stating that the problem you have with the solution is that it requires players to communicate for it to work?

Squads would need to work together and this also requires players to communicate.

Maybe not the fail mission part, but that sounds good!

Id rather stay closer to the main topic

 

And try to get an actual answer out of you thats more than subjective

Oh I've given my answers, if you don't like or understand them as how I actually meant them...ah well. I can't do anything to change that. :)

[Jax_Cavalera]

I guess it is fair to state that P42W is not avoided completely with Tactic Selections.

There are times when players (myself included) are not in the mood for intensive gameplay and want to sip on a chilled beverage tapping their 4th ability.

That's fine so long as it is no longer the only way to get the highest yields of XP and Rep in a game as that does not promote diversity or reward players for enjoying all possible play styles.

If there is a way to achieve a result without removing the WOW factor from abilities then this is ideal to me. I get a bad feeling when reductions to Ability effectiveness are passed as a solution because there is a high chance DE would do this and not reduce the underlying Grind Wall, RNG, Genocide 4 XP mechanics which would not resolve the problem re-surfacing again but instead just slow down an alreadly monotonous assortment of missions.

@Alpha : yeah it may be a bit harsh outright failing.. perhaps the reduced xp percentage and no end reward is enough punnishment.

Edited January 23, 2015 by Jax_Cavalera

[Azawarau]

Oh I've given my answers, if you don't like or understand them as how I actually meant them...ah well. I can't do anything to change that. :)

I understand perfectly which is probably why youre being so cheeky about it right now rather than actually answering

 

Is your goal at this point to derail lock the topic? Ill just start a new one if thats the case and give proper feedback in full myself

 

 

 

There are times when players (myself included) are not in the mood for intensive gameplay and want to sip on a chilled beverage tapping their 4th ability.

And there is a whole star chart and various tiered orokin missions for that

 

Being rewarded equally for placing far less effort isnt fair

Edited January 23, 2015 by Azawarau

[AlphaHorseman]

@Alpha : yeah it may be a bit harsh outright failing.. perhaps the reduced xp percentage and no end reward is enough punnishment.

Sounds good to me.

 

I understand perfectly which is probably why youre being so cheeky about it right now rather than actually answering

 

Is your goal at this point to derail lock the topic? Ill just start a new one if thats the case and give proper feedback in full myself

Oh I'm giving all the answers that I have to this topic. :)

 

I'm not the one here still trying to jab at people for giving their answers. I'd call that derailing.

 

Jax, it could work out well, as it helps to promote teams to communicate with one another and work out how they wish to do this. Of course, with PUBs it might take a bit longer for planning because people may not want to play how the rest of the team wants to play and leave, but we would get better group compositions for players looking for others who have complementary or similar play styles.

[Azawarau]

Oh I'm giving all the answers that I have to this topic. :)

 

I'm not the one here still trying to jab at people for giving their answers. I'd call that derailing.

Ive been on topic

 

Youre not actually answering anything still though

 

Let me ask you a question

 

Whats wrong with nerfing anything?

[AlphaHorseman]

Ive been on topic

 

Youre not actually answering anything still though

 

Let me ask you a question

 

Whats wrong with nerfing anything?

Oh I answered everything you asked, you just don't like my answers.

 

Nerfing anything? That'd be bad for the game overall.

 

Nerfing Immortality? sure. DE did that with most frames that have immortality. That's because Immortality made it where nothing, absolutely nothing, could hurt you or kill you. Only power that I can think of in the game that gives you immortality is Valkyr's Hysteria. Other than that, no power can. Even then, I'd feel bad for Valkyr players, I just hope they get a good reworked Hysteria in return for it.

 

But, before you start another pointless rant that goes in circles, see the rest of my posts in this thread, and in others, to get my reasoning why nerfing the availability of powers is not the answer.

[RealPandemonium]

And there is a whole star chart and various tiered orokin missions for that

 

Being rewarded equally for placing far less effort isnt fair

What you should have said is "That's what Nova/Nyx/Rhino/Loki/etc are for."

 

It's the truth, and it seems DE allows them to exist for that reason.  

Edited January 23, 2015 by RealPandemonium

[Azawarau]

Oh I answered everything you asked, you just don't like my answers.

 

Nerfing anything? That'd be bad for the game overall.

 

Nerfing Immortality? sure. DE did that with most frames that have immortality. That's because Immortality made it where nothing, absolutely nothing, could hurt you or kill you. Only power that I can think of in the game that gives you immortality is Valkyr's Hysteria. Other than that, no power can. Even then, I'd feel bad for Valkyr players, I just hope they get a good reworked Hysteria in return for it.

 

But, before you start another pointless rant that goes in circles, see the rest of my posts in this thread, and in others, to get my reasoning why nerfing the availability of powers is not the answer.

Isnt making enemies unable to touch you the same thing as immortality? People dont do 2/3/6 hour survivals and take a hit every so often

 

If youre going to go with invincibility being bad then you have to extend that to psuedo invincibility as well

 

I guarantee you guns didnt pull those times off

 

What you should have said is "That's what Nova/Nyx/Rhino/Loki/etc are for."

 

It's the truth, and it seems DE allows them to exist for that reason.  

Theres nothing wrong with casual frames

 

Its just some (NOVA) Are extremely (MESA) Over rewarding for less effort

 

As for maps

 

If you want to get the same rewards for less effort  so you can have your causal play youre going to run into the obvious issue that more serious play wont exist or will be ignored because why work harder for your reward when you can coax DE into making it easier for you

[geninrising]

Yep Alpha that is what the description mentions and that is how I intended it to be understood too. The percentage of XP you can get is based on how much of the mission was completed using the chosen Tactic and if it is completed with less than 50%, players do not get the end reward.

Or possibly fail the mission..could be too harsh not sure.

If you find a disruptive player in a PUB game, simply change the setting to Invite Only reforming the squad without that player and then recruit a new 4th from the recruiting chat tab.

I don't run tower keys with randoms unless we first discuss the plan prior to launch and all agree on it. The randoms I run with all come from recruiting and are less random than what you get in a Pub game.

Genrising, would I be correct in stating that the problem you have with the solution is that it requires players to communicate for it to work?

Squads would need to work together and this also requires players to communicate.

The problem that I have is the fact that either A individuals choose not to respect the tactics chosen by the team, B Tactics chosen one way or the other amount to a faster gain of affinity/rewards, or C players end up segregated if no one wishes to play with their choice of tactics and are forced to eat p42w regardless of their choice or play solo exactly as Alpha has put it many times and you yourself re-iterated in your post stating that if you don't like it reform as a private lobby.

 

The problem is that this segregation needs to be discussed at all. Powers should not be able to fracture the population this way and if they can so easily then something is not balanced.

[AlphaHorseman]

Isnt making enemies unable to touch you the same thing as immortality? People dont do 2/3/6 hour survivals and take a hit every so often

 

If youre going to go with invincibility being bad then you have to extend that to psuedo invincibility as well

 

I guarantee you guns didnt pull those times off

Wow, you just defeated your own point.

 

To clarify, you said pseudo invincibility. Meaning fake invincibility. Meaning not actually invincibility. Meaning enemies can still hit you. Meaning enemies can still hurt you. Meaning enemies can still kill you. Meaning there is no ability (other than the current iteration of Hysteria) that can give you invincibility. So no, there is no other power that makes you invincible or immortal :)

[Jax_Cavalera]

The problem that I have is the fact that either A individuals choose not to respect the tactics chosen by the team, B Tactics chosen one way or the other amount to a faster gain of affinity/rewards, or C players end up segregated if no one wishes to play with their choice of tactics and are forced to eat p42w regardless of their choice or play solo exactly as Alpha has put it many times and you yourself re-iterated in your post stating that if you don't like it reform as a private lobby.

The problem is that this segregation needs to be discussed at all. Powers should not be able to fracture the population this way and if they can so easily then something is not balanced.

If gained affinity/xp is balanced to award the more difficult and time consuming tactics better than the less involved ones there would not be a bias in which tactic players run for faster xp.

E.g. say DE survey run times on Stealth vs Primary Weapons only and it resulted with Primaries being 50% quicker on average per run. (Made up statistics)

DE could simply reward stealth with +100% xp since 2 runs using Primaries would reward 2x the XP in the same time it takes to perform the same mission once using Stealth once.

So each run with primaries might reward 50 XP and each stealth run would reward 100 XP

It is always a risk that we would see segregation depending on which rewards are being offered for specific Tactics. We currently see this with certain nodes being more popular than other nodes for this same reason.

A way to resolve this issue may be outside the scope of this discussion and would likely be a problem with the rewards system and not the tactic selection model exclusively as it is already a problem with the current game mechanics

Edited January 23, 2015 by Jax_Cavalera

[Azawarau]

Wow, you just defeated your own point.

 

To clarify, you said pseudo invincibility. Meaning fake invincibility. Meaning not actually invincibility. Meaning enemies can still hit you. Meaning enemies can still hurt you. Meaning enemies can still kill you. Meaning there is no ability (other than the current iteration of Hysteria) that can give you invincibility. So no, there is no other power that makes you invincible or immortal :)

Apparently you cant udnerstand the concept

 

Its an indirect invincibility that comes from the issue of 4 spam

 

I didnt defeat my own point, you just cant understand

 

Tell me how enemies can hurt you or kill you when they never had a chance to touch you int he first place?

 

Do you understand what pseudo is?

 

"The prefix pseudo- (from Greek ψευδής, pseudes, "lying, false") is used to mark something that superficially appears to be (or behaves like) one thing, but actually is another"

 

-Wikipedia

[AlphaHorseman]

Apparently you cant udnerstand the concept

 

Its an indirect invincibility that comes from the issue of 4 spam

 

I didnt defeat my own point, you just cant understand

 

Tell me how enemies can hurt you or kill you when they never had a chance to touch you int he first place?

 

Do you understand what pseudo is?

 

"The prefix pseudo- (from Greek ψευδής, pseudes, "lying, false") is used to mark something that superficially appears to be (or behaves like) one thing, but actually is another"

 

-Wikipedia

 

Oh I understand what pseudo is just fine.

 

Apparently even with your non-credible source Wikipedia, you still can't grasp that "lying, false" invincibility isn't invincibility.

 

There's no power in the game that makes you invincible outside of Hysteria. Enemies always have the opportunity to touch you, to shoot you, to kill you, if they aren't dead (other than when in Hysteria).

Edited January 23, 2015 by AlphaHorseman

[Azawarau]

Oh I understand what pseudo is just fine.

 

Apparently even with your non-credible source Wikipedia, you still can't grasp that "lying, false" invincibility isn't invincibility.

 

There's no power in the game that makes you invincible outside of Hysteria. Enemies always have the opportunity to touch you, to shoot you, to kill you, if they aren't dead (other than when in Hysteria).

You say my source isnt credible but know the definition given is correct and even use it the same way as my source.

 

Is that definition wrong? No

 

You say you understand the meaning but ignore that it can be something that behaves as something else

 

If enemies always have the opportunity to touch you then how is it that there are 2-3 hour survival runs where players manage to survive despite enemy damage reaching the point where any frame would die in a single hit?

 

How about we stop arguing semantics and you actually answer the question

 

Being dodgy isnt earning you anything here

[AlphaHorseman]

You say my source isnt credible but know the definition given is correct and even use it the same way as my source.

 

Is that definition wrong? No

 

You say you understand the meaning but ignore that it can be something that behaves as something else

 

If enemies always have the opportunity to touch you then how is it that there are 2-3 hour survival runs where players manage to survive despite enemy damage reaching the point where any frame would die in a single hit?

 

How about we stop arguing semantics and you actually answer the question

 

Being dodgy isnt earning you anything here

Your definition didn't justify any means to nerf power availability, because nothing within the game fit your loose definition (other than Hysteria). It behaves as something else, it isn't behaving like invincibility, therefore it isn't invincibility. :)

 

CC gives players the opportunity, often afforded to them through powers, and their guns offer them the ability to make good on that opportunity. You nerf the availability of powers, and you remove the opportunity, and you remove your guns the afforded chance to utilize that opportunity. You hurt one system, you hurt the other.

 

I've answered every question you asked.

[Azawarau]

Youre havnt answered at all

 

Look bill, just stop beating around the point and answer directly

 

We both know guns arent worth a thing 2 hours in and youll run out of ammo before killing a single enemy with most any weapon

 

We both know that what happens is people hide behind a wall and use powers and energy looping to kill and disable enemies to the point where players simply cannot die

 

If you were to get hit by so much as a single bullet 2 hours in youd go down.

 

This is why its pseudo invincibility

 

Because youre making it so you simply cant even be touched at that point in the game

 

So to get to the point.

 

If enemies cant touch you how is it not a pseudo invincibility?

 

Actually answer this time

[AlphaHorseman]

Youre havnt answered at all

 

Look bill, just stop beating around the point and answer directly

 

We both know guns arent worth a thing 2 hours in and youll run out of ammo before killing a single enemy with most any weapon

 

We both know that what happens is people hide behind a wall and use powers and energy looping to kill and disable enemies to the point where players simply cannot die

 

If you were to get hit by so much as a single bullet 2 hours in youd go down.

 

This is why its pseudo invincibility

 

Because youre making it so you simply cant even be touched at that point in the game

 

So to get to the point.

 

If enemies cant touch you how is it not a pseudo invincibility?

 

Actually answer this time

*sigh*

 

I answered everything you asked. You just don't like the answers. My name isn't Bill.

 

If your guns, of which outright rule in DPS, don't do a dent, what makes you think your powers (which have even less DPS) will still have killing power? They don't.

 

If your guns, which rule in per target DPS, cannot kill, what makes you think your powers kill enemies? They can't. When your powers can't kill enemies, you don't get energy. Arguing that energy restores isn't a valid point, as you also have ammo restores for your guns, so you potentially cannot run out of energy or ammo, if you have these on hand. Where will they hide? Please, tell me. How will this help when they need to kill and get LS in order to last that long? Even if they kill enemies, they have to step out and grab the LS, and if they step out, they die. You literally can't survive with these damage abilities alone.

 

Yes, because everyone lasts up to 2 hours in Survival. That last sentence was sarcasm, if you didn't catch it.

 

There is no invincibility, it's not even invincibility, other than Valkyr. That's why it's called pseudo, by even yourself. Because you aren't invincible. Everyone is vulnerable.

 

That question would've made sense if there was such a thing. To answer it, there is no such thing as pseudo invincibility outside of what a player thinks is invincibility, but is not. Invincibility means that you can't die, that you can't get hit, or that you can get hit but it isn't going to damage you. No power in this game (other than Valkyr's Hysteria), gives you actual invincibility.

 

Whatever power you think gives you invincibility, when in all actuality it doesn't if it isn't Hysteria, is what you call pseudo invincibility, because you are not invincible. If you don't like that answer, that isn't my problem.

 

 

If gained affinity/xp is balanced to award the more difficult and time consuming tactics better than the less involved ones there would not be a bias in which tactic players run for faster xp.

E.g. say DE survey run times on Stealth vs Primary Weapons only and it resulted with Primaries being 50% quicker on average per run. (Made up statistics)

DE could simply reward stealth with +100% xp since 2 runs using Primaries would reward 2x the XP in the same time it takes to perform the same mission once using Stealth once.

So each run with primaries might reward 50 XP and each stealth run would reward 100 XP

It is always a risk that we would see segregation depending on which rewards are being offered for specific Tactics. We currently see this with certain nodes being more popular than other nodes for this same reason.

A way to resolve this issue may be outside the scope of this discussion and would likely be a problem with the rewards system and not the tactic selection model exclusively as it is already a problem with the current game mechanics

Interesting. It would be interesting to see how this could be fleshed out.

[Azawarau]

*sigh*

 

I answered everything you asked. You just don't like the answers. My name isn't Bill.

 

If your guns, of which outright rule in DPS, don't do a dent, what makes you think your powers (which have even less DPS) will still have killing power? They don't.

 

If your guns, which rule in per target DPS, cannot kill, what makes you think your powers kill enemies? They can't. When your powers can't kill enemies, you don't get energy. Arguing that energy restores isn't a valid point, as you also have ammo restores for your guns, so you potentially cannot run out of energy or ammo, if you have these on hand. Where will they hide? Please, tell me. How will this help when they need to kill and get LS in order to last that long? Even if they kill enemies, they have to step out and grab the LS, and if they step out, they die. You literally can't survive with these damage abilities alone.

 

Yes, because everyone lasts up to 2 hours in Survival. That last sentence was sarcasm, if you didn't catch it.

 

There is no invincibility, it's not even invincibility, other than Valkyr. That's why it's called pseudo, by even yourself. Because you aren't invincible. Everyone is vulnerable.

 

That question would've made sense if there was such a thing. To answer it, there is no such thing as pseudo invincibility outside of what a player thinks is invincibility, but is not. Invincibility means that you can't die, that you can't get hit, or that you can get hit but it isn't going to damage you. No power in this game (other than Valkyr's Hysteria), gives you actual invincibility.

 

Whatever power you think gives you invincibility, when in all actuality it doesn't if it isn't Hysteria, is what you call pseudo invincibility, because you are not invincible. If you don't like that answer, that isn't my problem.

 

 

Interesting. It would be interesting to see how this could be fleshed out.

Youre going under the assumption that guns deal more DPS and thats wrong

 

When youre hitting 30 targets for 2-3k each guns dont stand a chance especially when paired with safety and utility

 

Sustaining guns for any amount of time at that point is difficult and risky compared to powers as well

 

You know this. Guns comparing to powers in terms of raw damage output isnt even arguable aside from perhaps launchers and even that is pushing lines

 

Until a gun can damage every enemy within 50 meters without having to aim or even see the enemy they wont compare to powers as they are now

 

It doesnt matter if everyone lasts up to 1 hour or 6 hours. The case is the same either way

 

Through a half hour powers trivialize enemies enough and everything after that is just pulling gunplay down more by comparison

 

your answer now is to jsut pretend it doesnt exist when players are clearly using it as a tool

 

So TL:DR you cant answer and instead try to dismiss it

[Insizer]

How about giving enemies an ability to dodge or partially block some Warframe abilities? I can't imagine that a Grineer marine, after watching his comrades be pinned to a wall by a Radial Javelin attack, would not try to dodge, partially block, or something the next time Excalibur raises an energy sword into the air. Some abilities cannot be anticipated as there is very little telegraphing that occurs or the targeting pattern is random or the power is simply unblockable due to physics.

I can imagine that, by now, Grineer (and Corpus) units would have some type of emergency defensive system built into their armor. The Grineer having something like an armor thickening or over-armor excretion system, while the Corpus have an emergency shield overdrive system. Lets be honest, the Warframes are OP as heck from our enemies perspective, why wouldn't they have an "Oh ****!!" button?

EDIT: Dang, I guess this comment is kind of out place considering the back and forth happening above huh?

Edited January 23, 2015 by Insizer

[AlphaHorseman]

Youre going under the assumption that guns deal more DPS and thats wrong

 

When youre hitting 30 targets for 2-3k each guns dont stand a chance especially when paired with safety and utility

 

Sustaining guns for any amount of time at that point is difficult and risky compared to powers as well

 

You know this. Guns comparing to powers in terms of raw damage output isnt even arguable aside from perhaps launchers and even that is pushing lines

 

Until a gun can damage every enemy within 50 meters without having to aim or even see the enemy they wont compare to powers as they are now

 

It doesnt matter if everyone lasts up to 1 hour or 6 hours. The case is the same either way

 

Through a half hour powers trivialize enemies enough and everything after that is just pulling gunplay down more by comparison

 

your answer now is to jsut pretend it doesnt exist when players are clearly using it as a tool

 

So TL:DR you cant answer and instead try to dismiss it

*sigh*

If a gun, that can do 40k damage (Paris Prime for example), isn't killing anything anymore, a power that does 3k damage, not even 1/10 of that damage, isn't going to do anything, even to multiple targets. The utility helps, the damage does nothing.

Power Utility/CC (I.e. Chaos, Radial Disarm, Molecular Prime, etc.) gives you the opportunity, the breathing room, to kill things with your guns. They work together.

Guns rule in per target DPS, Paris Prime, Dread, Soma Prime, Boltor Prime, all with maxed mods can attest to that. Powers that do AOE do so with the logic that they hit an area, but per target the damage is less. 3k on an Avalanche, for example. Or 8k I think on a maxed Miasma build, if that's the right numbers.

The systems work together, symbiots. One helps the other. In the highest tiers of content, in long endless missions, you're going to have to utilize both in order to push the limits. One gives the opportunity, the other the capability to maximize that opportunity. Powers don't hurt guns in that level of content, they help them.

Interpret my answer in whatever way your sweet little mind wishes, it does not change anything.

Oh I answered your question, you just don't like the answer.

Jax, how would your solution apply to endless missions?

[Xagulz]

Nerfing power damage/efficiency isn't going to solve anything, it's just going to ruin it for players that aren't abusing the VERY FEW MAPS that are small enough for a single player to run around and clear using a single aoe spell.

 

A real solution would be:

1. Fix the smaller interception maps that can be afked with a few warframe abilities.

2. Add more obstacles in defense maps to prevent players from spamming aoe spells to kill enemies before they get in range.

3. Remove the ability for any power to hit through walls because that would defeat the point of obstacles and it's a pretty silly concept to begin with.

4. Implement some way for stuck monsters to "time out" and despawn because now that we can no longer hit through walls this will cause problems.

5. Make more defense objectives move around every now and then (like on ceres) to prevent afking.

 

 

Oh and P.S.

@Devs

Remove the stupid damage that bypasses shield. Seriously, why can't I play my frame pure shield? We already have 0 armor... why do you hate us?

[Vallerian]

Wow, you just defeated your own point.

 

To clarify, you said pseudo invincibility. Meaning fake invincibility. Meaning not actually invincibility. Meaning enemies can still hit you. Meaning enemies can still hurt you. Meaning enemies can still kill you. Meaning there is no ability (other than the current iteration of Hysteria) that can give you invincibility. So no, there is no other power that makes you invincible or immortal :)

It'd be REAL hard for a squad that made it to 2 hours to screw up that bad

We shouldn't be allowed to survive hour+ missions. It screws up the balancing across the board and contributes to the grindiness of WF.

[AlphaHorseman]

It'd be REAL hard for a squad that made it to 2 hours to screw up that bad

We shouldn't be allowed to survive hour+ missions. It screws up the balancing across the board and contributes to the grindiness of WF.

That...made no sense.

 

If a team makes it that far, bravo to them. DE doesn't balance content to 2hr survivals, that'd be stupid. That, in no way contributes to the grind of WarFrame, because DE doesn't make the grind to that extent, it's the players who are trying to defeat the grind and get the most out of their mission run.

[geninrising]

The systems work together, symbiots. One helps the other. In the highest tiers of content, in long endless missions, you're going to have to utilize both in order to push the limits. One gives the opportunity, the other the capability to maximize that opportunity. Powers don't hurt guns in that level of content, they help them.

BUUUUT this logic does not equal what occurs anywhere else EXCEPT end game which is not balanced towards.

 

So to clarify my thoughts. Why should powers absolutely trump guns in every slice of the game OTHER than the place that is not balanced at all?

This illustrates a clearly defined problem in the balance of powers which require no skill to wreck the entire portion of the game that is "balanced".

[Azawarau]

How about giving enemies an ability to dodge or partially block some Warframe abilities? I can't imagine that a Grineer marine, after watching his comrades be pinned to a wall by a Radial Javelin attack, would not try to dodge, partially block, or something the next time Excalibur raises an energy sword into the air. Some abilities cannot be anticipated as there is very little telegraphing that occurs or the targeting pattern is random or the power is simply unblockable due to physics.

I can imagine that, by now, Grineer (and Corpus) units would have some type of emergency defensive system built into their armor. The Grineer having something like an armor thickening or over-armor excretion system, while the Corpus have an emergency shield overdrive system. Lets be honest, the Warframes are OP as heck from our enemies perspective, why wouldn't they have an "Oh ****!!" button?

EDIT: Dang, I guess this comment is kind of out place considering the back and forth happening above huh?

You have a palce

 

Dont be afraid to add onto either side

 

Just be warned this can getnasty

 

*sigh*

If a gun, that can do 40k damage (Paris Prime for example), isn't killing anything anymore, a power that does 3k damage, not even 1/10 of that damage, isn't going to do anything, even to multiple targets. The utility helps, the damage does nothing.

Power Utility/CC (I.e. Chaos, Radial Disarm, Molecular Prime, etc.) gives you the opportunity, the breathing room, to kill things with your guns. They work together.

Guns rule in per target DPS, Paris Prime, Dread, Soma Prime, Boltor Prime, all with maxed mods can attest to that. Powers that do AOE do so with the logic that they hit an area, but per target the damage is less. 3k on an Avalanche, for example. Or 8k I think on a maxed Miasma build, if that's the right numbers.

The systems work together, symbiots. One helps the other. In the highest tiers of content, in long endless missions, you're going to have to utilize both in order to push the limits. One gives the opportunity, the other the capability to maximize that opportunity. Powers don't hurt guns in that level of content, they help them.

Interpret my answer in whatever way your sweet little mind wishes, it does not change anything.

Oh I answered your question, you just don't like the answer.

Jax, how would your solution apply to endless missions?

Paris prime hits 1 thing

 

Powers hit 30

 

 

Let me give you an example

 

You can either shoot a guy

 

Or

 

You can drop an A bomb on his base and kill him and all of his evil henchmen for miles

 

In this sense guns cant compare

 

 

Ah yes, because that bomb does 1/5 or even 1/10 the damage to each of those targets. Yes, that sounds like an assured way to make sure they die.

 

/sarcasm

 

 

And hits 20-30 times more targets at once

 

Im no mathmagician but....

 

 

Ah that's IF there are that many enemies in the area. And also the radius of the area. You could fire off an AoE like that and hit two targets, or ten. Ten targets, good job! Two targets? Well...that was pretty much wasted.

 

 

Thats because you already killed them with your last 4 and are moving to a new area to do the same

Saying guns can compare is ridiculous

 

Youre literally making a fool of yourself

 

That...made no sense.

 

If a team makes it that far, bravo to them. DE doesn't balance content to 2hr survivals, that'd be stupid. That, in no way contributes to the grind of WarFrame, because DE doesn't make the grind to that extent, it's the players who are trying to defeat the grind and get the most out of their mission run.

Its not particularly difficult

 

Its more a matter of how long youre willing to hold out

 

Classic Vauban VS infested solo with Ogris

 

 

BUUUUT this logic does not equal what occurs anywhere else EXCEPT end game which is not balanced towards.

 

So to clarify my thoughts. Why should powers absolutely trump guns in every slice of the game OTHER than the place that is not balanced at all?

This illustrates a clearly defined problem in the balance of powers which require no skill to wreck the entire portion of the game that is "balanced".

geninrising uses logic!

 

Its ineffective!