Here's How We Remove Serration And (Attempt To) Balance The Game. Damage 2.5 (Designated Megathread)

[haolee510]

Hmm what am I thinking? I'm thinking that removing serration would make my rank 30 Braton Vandal ONLY as strong as it is right now WITH serration in it.

So when I go to a T4whatever I'm still doing almost no real damage to anything over a certain level...

Let me keep my Serration and suddenly all that content that one shots me and sucks up HUNDREDS of bullets if not thousands,becomes readily killable,and allows me to progress to killing harder enemies. It's not like there wouldn't end up being a point where even having serration as bonus damage becomes pointless (enemies can scale infinitely thus even without serration the bullet sponges will come. Letting me keep Serration makes them come later rather than sooner)

Putting innate damage progression on weapon AND not removing Serration wouldn't fix the problem. Serration would still be a must-have on builds, because why won't we have as much damage as possible on our weapon?

[Bouldershoulder]

Do you know what these are?

 

 

Another source of income for DE.

Do you really want such system instead of serration and others?

Edited January 19, 2015 by Bouldershoulder

[(XBOX)MAXsandwich]

It's not a matter of mandatory, it's a matter of people are going to stack damage. It's a gun, it does damage, they'll stack damage.

 

So nothing really changes.

 

I simply don't see DE going for Damage 3.0--and that's what you're asking for. If you end up with tiered weapons and a fixed damage progression, you've just recreated Destiny's weapons. I don't think that's what we want in this game.

I was about to type the same thing in regards to Destiny in another thread... +1

[Mazrim]

Here's a question. Why should we care about mods that are 'Situational' and 'Fit our Playstyle?' If they offer a mod that's "+headshot damage," everyone will just slot it into their builds. Serration removed, replaced with Headshot mod. We're back to square one. And then in a month, the endless post spam of "Remove headshot mod because its essential!" will start up. 

 

Posts like these don't think about what needs to be done after the change. What do we replace Serration with? What do we replace Split Caliber with? etc. Situational mods that stop being situational and become 'Essential?' Its just the same damn thing over and over and over.

Edited January 19, 2015 by (PS4)IIIDevoidIII
Language

[CaptainEras]

Why complicate the uncomplcated . . . I have a maxed serration because I got off of my arse and did what was needed, those against are against because they sit on their lazy arse as soon as any real effort is required . . .simple as.

 

ALL of the top mods in my collection are maxed . . . just grind it out.

Edited January 19, 2015 by CaptainEras

[(PSN)IIIDevoidIII]

Moved to a more appropriate subforum.

[Sixty5]

Ok, I read over it again, and your scaling is still broken.

165% damage through level up means that you cannot effectively balance low end content.

As it is, a new player can hang out on mercury and Venus for awhile picking up some mods and ranking up gear.

Through that time limited resources keep the players power level pretty low.

The scaling through weapon level breaks that, you hit level 15 on your weapon and that's alot of damage to give a new player for free.

To the point that everything up to Mars etc becomes redundant in terms of a challenge.

Plus the overall scaling curve of the game becomes a hell of a lot shallower, meaning that the difference between mid game and late game content would be negligible.

Removing damage mods just turns out to be a lot of work for pretty much no payoff.

[Feallike]

OK: I love your idea.

 

So for a moral boost to you since i know you are getting haters. (i don't get what those people are thinking this game is broken and needs fixing)

 

To be honest i think the DE should either get rid of damage mods, or integrate them into the Focus system and make you have to choose between mods like serration or Elements.

 

Kitty photo:

 

 

 

Also if the DE goes through with this type of change they need to basically lock forums for a week so that players can reforma and rebuild stuff so that the forums aren't spammed by fools who are just complaining about grinding.

 

P.S Everyone who is saying just a straight up NO and i want to downvote your post. Please just don't post then. Your just bumping the OP so your helping him in the long run so instead of adding a useless post please say something about what you want to happen other then just a simple NO.

Edited January 19, 2015 by Feallike

[CaptainEras]

I can see where the OP is going with his comments, and he's right, we do stick to roughly the same powerful mods and ignore the vast amount of mods available . .so all he's saying is a massive rebalance could mean we have to use our brains more in kitting out for the mission we intend taking, not, "one size fits all", and let's face it, we can't just go on getting more and more powerful.

Enemies could be nerfed accordingly so why wouldn't it work.

 

I have maxed mods for all of them, a lot of time and expense, but would willingly accept compensation and a change in direction, that's just part of this experience.

Edited January 19, 2015 by CaptainEras

[CaptainEras]

OK: I love your idea.

 

So for a moral boost to you since i know you are getting haters. (i don't get what those people are thinking this game is broken and needs fixing)

 

To be honest i think the DE should either get rid of damage mods, or integrate them into the Focus system and make you have to choose between mods like serration or Elements.

 

Kitty photo:

Hahahaha . . love it !

[(XBOX)Sgt Batman MD]

Tier the weapons, top tier weapons get innate 165% damage boosts on leveling, lower tier weapons have lower max scaling damage %.  Add a more consistent mastery block, instead of having just about all end-game weapons available within a good few hours of real gameplay.  The only frame mastery blocked was rhino I believe, and that was an odd thing to see coming into the game the first time.  

 

Make buying and creating end game weapons require mastery rank of equal or greater value to equip, so you can't just avoid the blocks.  You don't have the skill necessary to handle it.  Gives a sense of progression to the game, keeps people playing longer to work for higher tier'd weapons.  Don't say that it just creates more grind, because the entire end game at this point is grind.  The whole game is grind, but there is no order amidst the chaos, just grab a gun, get a good friend to give you better stuff and skip to the end of the star chart.  

 

TL;DR implement a better mastery lock system, tier the weapons, and scale the damage % per tiers if % mods are getting removed.

[---Merchant---]

We seriously need a Negative rep button for this thread. Please.  Just please, DE, give us the Down vote option.

this

I would click it millions times and also very negative=hidden

[Feallike]

Tier the weapons, top tier weapons get innate 165% damage boosts on leveling, lower tier weapons have lower max scaling damage %.  Add a more consistent mastery block, instead of having just about all end-game weapons available within a good few hours of real gameplay.  The only frame mastery blocked was rhino I believe, and that was an odd thing to see coming into the game the first time.  

 

Make buying and creating end game weapons require mastery rank of equal or greater value to equip, so you can't just avoid the blocks.  You don't have the skill necessary to handle it.  Gives a sense of progression to the game, keeps people playing longer to work for higher tier'd weapons.  Don't say that it just creates more grind, because the entire end game at this point is grind.  The whole game is grind, but there is no order amidst the chaos, just grab a gun, get a good friend to give you better stuff and skip to the end of the star chart.  

 

TL;DR implement a better mastery lock system, tier the weapons, and scale the damage % per tiers if % mods are getting removed.

 

I agree. Mastery rank locking is needed so heavily that its ridiculous

 

 

this

I would click it millions times and also very negative=hidden

 

^ this is a example of a useless post that has nothing to do with the OP other then just saying NO.... Please actually post why you think this is a bad idea other then a simple no. -.-

. 

[haolee510]

^ this is a example of a useless post that has nothing to do with the OP other then just saying NO.... Please actually post why you think this is a bad idea other then a simple no. -.-

. 

Sadly I see that some people who disagree with OP(not all, but some) are still new to the game, or at least don't fully understand where and why the talk of removing/replacing Serration came from.

 

On topic, I'm still on the fence about this. I want to have more varied weapon builds, but I fear implementing and rebalancing everything would be a total mess.

[Innocent_Flower]

So I looked at the hot topic and noticed a big change in the percentages. Whereas before more were voting for either Removal, Changes or 'other', more now are voting for 'they're fine' and even the 'buff them' option is gaining momentum.(it's currently 30% and 15% versus 13%,23% and 5%. It was on first sight 25%,10% versus 14%,24% and i forgot what the 'other' percentage was.)

 

Now this is probably one of the biggest questions to ask in hot topics. It affects the entire balancing of the game. It's essentially something that could end with a damage 3.0, and would at the least call for a damage 2.1

 

Voting to make such mods more powerful... Well, that's a bad joke. Especially considering the weight of such a change. If you want to powertrip, make a thread for an easymode so that you can powertrip without impacting the game for everyone who doesn't want that. 

 

Voting 'they're fine as they are' because you've missed information (or didn't like the 'no opinion' or 'other' option ) is... bad. Very bad. 

 

1- Should DE remove +damage mods then there's a 90% chance of players being compensated in credits, cores and ducats. (if you traded for a mod in plat, then you essentially bought a lot of cores. Still worth it) outside that 90%; the mods turn into something else. It's extremely unlikely that DE will give players nothing for anything they remove. You might not get legendary cores, but you'l get enough. 

 

2- Any change to mods will have a change to the way enemies level/scale. If you're thinking "How am I going to do 40 mins t4 survival without serration" then, sadly, you're a bit silly. 

 

3- Removing +Damage mods will likely not be the end of 'progression'. Rather, it might be the beginning of meaningful progression. Enemies will go from 'more health and damage' to 'smarter, have more abilities and spawning in more devilish patterns'. Veteran players will have better weapons modded with far more utility, specialization and functionality to deal with enemies better whilst not becoming something that can instantly make mid-level content boring and irrelevant. Allowing players to move more easily between high and mid-level content without needing to constantly make load-out adjustments. 

 

4- Removing + damage mods will not mean that 'people will find the most optimum build again using the remaining mods and then we will need more nerfs'. Will there be an optimum build? Most likely. But will it be as bad as the optimum builds we have now? Not nearly as bad. Again: just removing/amending the damage mods isn't it. DE will have to look at 'the whole animal' and will change multishot, the corrupted damage mods and probably the elemental/physical damage mods too. It's not like power-spaming will become more prevalent as weapons 'decline in power' as DE will probably touch on the damage dealing abilities too   

 

Edit:

5- It isn't about buffing or nerfing. It's not that we want enemies to be super-hard or guns to be super weak. It's about both increasing the sense of progression and accessibility. It's about customization and better game mechanics. And just maybe it might make things easier on the developers: Maybe DE would be better at fine-tuning things if they didn't have to worry about players increasing their damage a hundred-fold. Maybe bosses wouldn't need to pull BS-weakspots because many players can instantly kill them if they weren't otherwise immunize. Maybe better AI could be worked on if it wasn't wasted on enemies that were all one-hit-dead. Do something like this and players will be able to better set themselves to have be challenged or not through means that aren't painstaking damage calculations. 

 

..Or maybe DE themselves just don't recognize the change that removing serration (and causing damage Something-point-something) could bring (those are some cool questions in the hot topics, but none of them that central to warframe's future growth as this) It could have been a hot topic on it's own. Maybe [DE] Drew could/should have explained it differently. 

Edited January 19, 2015 by Innocent_Flower

[Astrotrap]

1- I, for one, am aware.

 

2- I know that, too.

 

3- That... never occurred to me? I don't actually want "devillish spawning patterns" in my enemies. That sounds cruel.

 

4- Don't care.

 

I don't understand this masochistic "NERF OUR EVERYTHING BUFF ALL ENEMIES" idea. If you have such trouble being challenged, just play Nightmare missions. And not Exterminates, either, but ACTUAL Nightmare Defense and Survival missions. Seriously, half the fun of this game is destroying things. Even if we're compensated in full and enemies are nerfed into the ground along with us, then where does that get us? Nowhere. Enemy/player power ratio remains equal.

[gnat6]

I think you are exaggerating the effects that removing serration would have the main difference it would make is that guns would have 8 available slots instead of the 7 slots they have now.

[Sixty5]

I'd also like to point out that reducing enemy armour/hp to make up for the loss of damage mods would result in power spam becoming much more prevalent.

I would rather not have the game shift to 24/7 power spam

[Innocent_Flower]

I don't understand this masochistic "NERF OUR EVERYTHING BUFF ALL ENEMIES" idea. If you have such trouble being challenged, just play Nightmare missions. And not Exterminates, either, but ACTUAL Nightmare Defense and Survival missions. Seriously, half the fun of this game is destroying things. Even if we're compensated in full and enemies are nerfed into the ground along with us, then where does that get us? Nowhere. Enemy/player power ratio remains equal.

It isn't about challenge at all. it isn't asking for enemies to be buffed, or nerfed, or for us to be buffed or nerfed. 

 

Random mutators though? Is that really a valid response? 

Edited January 19, 2015 by Innocent_Flower

[StinkyPygmy]

All true. There seems to a be a huge misconception that DE is suggesting a straight up removal and nothing else.

Even if its too late to fix the single optimum build issue its definitely better then have "one mod to rule them all."

[StinkyPygmy]

"I don't understand this masochistic "NERF OUR EVERYTHING BUFF ALL ENEMIES" idea. If you have such trouble being challenged, just play Nightmare missions. And not Exterminates, either, but ACTUAL Nightmare Defense and Survival missions. Seriously, half the fun of this game is destroying things. Even if we're compensated in full and enemies are nerfed into the ground along with us, then where does that get us? Nowhere. Enemy/player power ratio remains equal."

 

Nightmare mode is a joke even if challenge was the main issue. Annoying modifiers are very much not a solution.

It isn't about challenge at all. it isn't asking for enemies to be buffed, or nerfed, or for us to be buffed or nerfed. 

By the same logic one could say "go play exclusively on mercury if you want easy mode". See how unfun and silly that is?

You're really missing the entire point. It has nothing to do with nerfing everything and buffing enemies. On the contrary its the complete opposite. 

Asking for the modding system/dmg system to actually be what it was intended to be is the short simple reason behind it.

 

I've spent to long in serration threads being a broken record...

I'm out.

 

Edit: Quoted the wrong post.

Edited January 19, 2015 by StinkyPygmy

[Innocent_Flower]

I'd also like to point out that reducing enemy armour/hp to make up for the loss of damage mods would result in power spam becoming much more prevalent.

I would rather not have the game shift to 24/7 power spam

Or, y'know, they could have a crack at balancing those too. 

[xRufus7x]

So here's a question. If we remove all elemental mods and damage mods, what do we fill our weapons with? Magazine Warp and Ammo drum? Can't have crit mods, thems are damage mods. Primed Fast Hands?

 

Howabout Channeling Mods. The only channel mod worth anything is Life Strike. Reach and Fury are staples of every build as is. Do we remove those too?

 

Where do we stop removing "Damage mods" in the name of "Variety?" Do we keep going onto Warframe mods? So let's remove things that make frames good, i.e. Vitality/Vigor/Redirection. Those are, after all, 'essential mods.' Oooh! I know. Howabout Flow, Streamline, Intensify. Those are essentials is 90% of all Frame builds. 

I don't mean to be a downer, but none of the mods you mentioned are used as consistently and overwhelmingly as Serration and it's equivelents.

 

Reach and Fury are far from required, and I don't use Reach on any of my melee weapons, and why would I when I can increase my damage instead. See what I did there.

 

Vitality and Redirection are not required and a lot of people seem to choose one or the other, but they can also be supplemented or replaced by Quick Thinking or other defensive mods, or just blocking with your melee weapons.

 

As for Flow and Streamline, there are a lot of ways to supplement energy gain. Rage, Energy Syphon, Equilibrium(if you have a consistent way of generating health orbs), energy pads, death balls(if you are using a prime frame in the void)

 

Now, i'm not saying there is a ton of build diversity for frames, but there is a hell of a lot more than there is for weapons.

Edited January 19, 2015 by xRufus7x

[7grims]

why da hell u ppl wont drop this feedback in the proper tread created by the devs, for the devs to read.

instead its here, for a few to read, and the devs never to find it.

Edited January 19, 2015 by 7grims

[MrNonApplicable]

Seeing that poll was quite dissapointing