Here's How We Remove Serration And (Attempt To) Balance The Game. Damage 2.5 (Designated Megathread)

[omegaskorpion]

Exelent Topic and suggestion you have here, you have my 1+

 

And for those people that don't like serration removal/rewamp (jadi jadi jaa)

 

The warframe has already a lot of progression in it: getting better gear, leveling tour weapons and frames and leveling up mods, removing/revamping damage mods does not bother me since they are just always required in moding, everyone always mods towards DAMAGE, nothing els, this gives great change in the system so we can build our guns towards things we found usefull to OUR play styles.

 

Now this will change the game in playe style bit more, since we cant kill everything in our path instantly, but warframe has lacked the chalenge realy in so its welcome change.

(starters and survival/defence 1000min players have only chalenge right now in this system)

 

However the crit increase and boost mods are still unbalanced since some weapons mostly relie on critting.

[Innocent_Flower]

Which exact things are you against in the OP? Why is this one of the most flawed ways we could do it? Just curious on what you think.

 

 

Method 2: Make it Innate. 

Remove damage mods, refund the credits/cores/ducats. 

Have weapons increase damage as they level up, in the same scale as serration (165% at rank 30)

 

Advantages

Extra slot for customization

 

Disadvantages

-Only tackles power-scaling excess if other mods surrounding serration (multishot, elements etc) are changed. If not It'd probably just mean another slot to stack damage on.  

- Unless the innate serration is capped for each mission, Players would have the problem of lesser control in how much damage they do on lower level missions

- Would encourage players to do xp farms/exploits. 

Edited January 21, 2015 by Innocent_Flower

[Jahadaya]

Method 2: Make it Innate. 

Remove damage mods, refund the credits/cores/ducats. 

Have weapons increase damage as they level up, in the same scale as serration (165% at rank 30)

 

Advantages

Extra slot for customization

 

Disadvantages

-Only tackles power-scaling excess if other mods surrounding serration (multishot, elements etc) are changed. If not It'd probably just mean another slot to stack damage on.  

- Unless the innate serration is capped for each mission, Players would have the problem of lesser control in how much damage they do on lower level missions

- Would encourage players to do xp farms/exploits. 

Crossed out the first one because the OP did that already.

 

My weapon tiering idea would (sort of) help alleviate the second one; however I don't really think it's that big of a problem to kill lower level enemies quicker with higher level guns. I don't understand the issue you have with that.

 

If you have a problem with players doing xp farms/exploits, then that's a whole different "problem" in and of itself. The issue would be the fact that we can even do them in the first place. Reworking the weapons system won't do anything for that.  Players already do xp farms and exploits constantly. 

Edited January 21, 2015 by Jahadaya

[Educated_Beast]

So the point of all these massive changes is to make utility mods useful? I say just introduce them as nightmare dual stat mods.

Another solution is to have 1 slot introduced on each weapon only available for utility.

There is no guarantee all these changes won't wreck the game. I personally like the existing system and feel there are bigger fish to fry than this.

[VoidPunch]

I disagree with your #5, and how you handle the viability of tiered weapons. In my opinion all weapons should still have a maxed 165% damage increase. You have essentially made the problem of build diversity worse by making a clear distinction on what weapons are good and bad even more apparent. I hate games where everyone in the late game is using the same exact weapons because they are obviously the best and why use anything else.

 

I would much rather have tier 3-4 weapons just as viable as tier 5 weapons. I like the Karak, I use in late game sometimes because it is still viable (not good compared to other top tier guns, but still viable) With your damage scale increase amount tier, you have removed the effectiveness and viability of any weapon that is not tier 5 and that is a bad thing.

 

The 5 tier weapons you propose are the same problem on this game that serration pose and still is a problem right now with top tier weapons like Soma Prime and Boltor Prime are and that is that they are easily better with no downside. They have no learning curve, no skill, noting interesting about them, they are just generally better guns. I think the top tier of weapons should have varied mechanics that make them viable but used correctly can deal even more damage then any other guns. Guns like the Opticor are perfect examples, the charge mechanic prevents this gun from being a simple spray and pray dps gun. But those willing to wait out a charge and aim shots are rewarded for damage far beyond almost any gun in this game can reproduce. (I'm not here to argue that Opticor is better then Soma P or Boltor P in damage, this is just an example of a gun that takes skill or has an interesting mechanic and rewards players for using it verses a normal bullet hose.)

 

This is something this game lacks but is start to make up for. Lack of skill. Risk vs reward. Rather then slap on this and be better all around for no downside.

Edited January 22, 2015 by HandsOfnArtist

[CaptainEras]

Totally agree, a bit of oldfashioned gaming, go minimum and see what level you can go to and still survive.

 

I've been playing; Trinity, Kohm (2x polly), and machete . . . no secondary, if the Kohm runs out of ammo I have mutation on so fighting with the machete is required until enough pickups.

 

Rig the Kohm out correctly and like the Opticor it can be a lethal weapon . . .boltor and soma are soooooo boring.

 

You are right, of course, 90% of these gamers are their own worst enemy, IMAGINATION is what good gaming is about . . .we have a fantastic box of tricks but as the importance placed on this thread over ONE mod shows, there ain't much around . . .

[vaugahn]

Totally agree, a bit of oldfashioned gaming, go minimum and see what level you can go to and still survive.

 

I've been playing; Trinity, Kohm (2x polly), and machete . . . no secondary, if the Kohm runs out of ammo I have mutation on so fighting with the machete is required until enough pickups.

 

Rig the Kohm out correctly and like the Opticor it can be a lethal weapon . . .boltor and soma are soooooo boring.

 

You are right, of course, 90% of these gamers are their own worst enemy, IMAGINATION is what good gaming is about . . .we have a fantastic box of tricks but as the importance placed on this thread over ONE mod shows, there ain't much around . . .

 

Completely missing the point.

[Jahadaya]

I disagree with your #5, and how you handle the viability of tiered weapons. In my opinion all weapons should still have a maxed 165% damage increase. You have essentially made the problem of build diversity worse by making a clear distinction on what weapons are good and bad even more apparent. I hate games where everyone in the late game is using the same exact weapons because they are obviously the best and why use anything else.

 

I would much rather have tier 3-4 weapons just as viable as tier 5 weapons. I like the Karak, I use in late game sometimes because it is still viable (not good compared to other top tier guns, but still viable) With your damage scale increase amount tier, you have removed the effectiveness and viability of any weapon that is not tier 5 and that is a bad thing.

 

The 5 tier weapons you propose are the same problem on this game that serration pose and still is a problem right now with top tier weapons like Soma Prime and Boltor Prime are and that is that they are easily better with no downside. They have no learning curve, no skill, noting interesting about them, they are just generally better guns. I think the top tier of weapons should have varied mechanics that make them viable but used correctly can deal even more damage then any other guns. Guns like the Opticor are perfect examples, the charge mechanic prevents this gun from being a simple spray and pray dps gun. But those willing to wait out a charge and aim shots are rewarded for damage far beyond almost any gun in this game can reproduce. (I'm not here to argue that Opticor is better then Soma P or Boltor P in damage, this is just an example of a gun that takes skill or has an interesting mechanic and rewards players for using it verses a normal bullet hose.)

 

This is something this game lacks but is start to make up for. Lack of skill. Risk vs reward. Rather then slap on this and be better all around for no downside.

You can easily upgrade the tier of a weapon with my idea I suggested. 

 

Also you're completely missing the point - and in a way actually agreeing with the OP. This thread has nothing to do with weapon diversity, only build diversity. Weapon diversity can just be solved with adding more content (adding more weapons) and is 100% up to what the Devs add. In fact, weapon diversity would be improved with my idea as it would be easier to balance out the amount of weapons in each Tier, unlike we have now with a couple weapons being in like Tier 100 while most others are around Tier 1-3.

[CaptainEras]

Completely missing the point.

Y'see that's the thing when you have been around forums since year one of computer gaming, there is nothing new, and your reply really is a silly remark to make, but you have already missed the point so I'll not waste time explaining it . . . Oh ! why silly ?. .because I have missed nothing, but then, I'm usually too subtle for people to catch on.

 

So many people here imagining they are having a useful brainstorming session . . . really ??? . . .more like late evening in the pub when everyone suddenly becomes an expert, lol.

 

Strictly speaking, a computer programmer can be seen as a scientist (one of my nephews is fairly high up at Creative Assembly, very clever chap), so for credibility's sake am I to believe this monolith of a thread is full of scientists ? . . no ? . .well, there you have it . . .

Edited January 23, 2015 by CaptainEras

[Jahadaya]

Now that I'm observing, ever since the time of this thread's creation, I don't think DE has uttered a single word on the damage mod issue they brought up :P lol

[Vadrigos]

Now that I'm observing, ever since the time of this thread's creation, I don't think DE has uttered a single word on the damage mod issue they brought up :P lol

 

They  do that with a lot of issues...

[Tyreuzs]

they should take over the conclave weapons stats for pve

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

Now that I'm observing, ever since the time of this thread's creation, I don't think DE has uttered a single word on the damage mod issue they brought up :P lol

They did mention a bit about damage on the last stream. I'm beginning to wonder if there'll be a mods 3.0 by the end of the year.

[ACorpse]

They should really do a database pass, see which mods are most commonly fitted to level 30 weapons. If there's a particular mod that's used 90% or more of the time, it needs revisiting. Same goes for any mod that sees less than 10% use.

 

This could easily be extended to frame mods too.

[SilentCircle]

Removing those mods would pretty much ruin the game for me.

[Jahadaya]

Removing those mods would pretty much ruin the game for me.

Why?

[DrBorris]

I am with you on all points... except 3 (which is arguable one of the most important. Why you ask? Well, because it is too easy. ranking a weapon to thirty is far to fast. The solutions is simple then right? Nope. You cannot just massively increase the amount of time needed to rank a weapon to thirty for two reasons. One, modding. Holding back how fast we can customize our weapons to such an extent necessary to provide some semblance of a progression with weapon power will constrain the mod system so much that it will lose a lot of its luster. Now lets say that you made two "rankings" of a weapon, one for available mod slots and one for weapon damage, there is still an issue, and a massive one. What would be the difference in power between a new and veteran player? If all it takes to make a weapon powerful, then a MR 4 player could easily have the exact same amount of power as a MR 19 player. That is wrong. There should be some semblance of Progression to the power you are capable of, it should not be handed out like government subsidies. 

 

I wrote 15,000 words on this whole topic of "Progression" and I am going to try to quickly sum it up into a few sentences. First, keep all of your points in the OP except #3. Then, add 50-ish quests that come together in a timeline of sorts that tells the story of Warframe (basically all past events).

Then, make a new "rank" to work together with MR called "Progression rank". This Progression Rank is simply the amount of quests completed. For every Quest completed, you gain one Progression Rank. For every Progression Rank, you gain +5% weapon damage. This would make the progression of power a long term rather than short term goal, in addition you could also make it so skill was required to gain power by correlating the available power and the quests you are faced against.

 

That is the shortest summary possible, and before you point out the obvious faults in that summary, read the whole concept (https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/382328-progression-20-a-complete-rework-of-the-presentation-of-warframe/). If you want a "clean" copy (.docx file) that may be easier to read than the forum version, shoot me a pm. 

 

Okay, that may not be the best solution, but correlating damage to weapon level is a very bad idea, it would remove almost all progression, and progression is that huge theme that brings the majority of people back to a game time and again. 

[neKroMancer]

21 pages of discussion - pardon me for not reading.

 

Based on my build so far, I have to say that pure damage mods (serration and split chamber) are mandatory for all weapons - that's not good since it limits variety of builds severely - you have to put them in all your weapons in order to compete with AI scaling and that means losing 2-3 mod slots for them.

 

Which means they aren't meaningful choices but mandatory ones.

[Yastin]

So... What if we just added a designated furnace in the ship, next to the mod counter... A "Damage" furnace, where you sacrifice all your fun mods to build up a universal serration effect on all weapons up to their current max? Then, we can have build variety, and "purists" can start new accounts just to watch their frame physically shoveling cores and mods into the great serration furnace? I mean, it's fun, right?

[Ocaz]

U realize this would never work because base damage boosts are how the game is balanced among higher level areas of play and also it makes sense that base damage be boosted because what game doesnt do that, that incorporates a damage system?

 

Extra Thought: Also if the way u wanted to incorporate it by adding 5.5% damage per level, ud be trapped on low level planets forever. And if you scale it, the game would be too easy AND too hard in certain areas and the middle ground would be either nonexistant or very scarce and also incredibly boring to play.

Edited April 29, 2015 by Ocaz

[TheGrimCorsair]

I like everything about the OP's suggestion except the damage progression being lower on low Tier weapons... unless their damage progression-per-level switched as your own Mastery Rank improved, eventually following the same progression of higher tier weapons. You could stick it out with a weapon you had early on and, even if it's not necessarily the spreadsheet superstar the high-rank weapons are, at least show up to a fight with it knowing you're not throwing spitballs.

[oinkah]

Now that I'm observing, ever since the time of this thread's creation, I don't think DE has uttered a single word on the damage mod issue they brought up :P lol

They did remove every single damage mod from conclave. So at least they did something.

I wouldn't mind to see than model transfered to PvE with enemy levels toned down. Scaling is stupid anyway.

Edited April 29, 2015 by oinkah

[TheBrsrkr]

These are good ideas and all, but I don't think straight removing the mods and nerfing everything else is the way to do it. Why not dedicated slots? Have slots you can put Serration, Heavy Caliber and Splt Chamber in at no cost, and increased effectiveness. HOwever, putting something else in the slot (say, a reload speed/clip size mod) would get more boosts than the regular old damage mods. Something like this:

 

Max Serration: +165 dmg+ dedicated slot = +190 dmg

Max Heavy Cal: +165 dmg- 15 Accuracy + dedicated slot = 165 dmg

Max Fast Hands: +30% reload speed + dedicated slot = 75% reload speed

Dual Stat mod: 60% Status+ 60% Status chance + dedicated slot = 90% Status + 90% Status chance

 

Make it so that it's actually feasible to slot a "weak" mod in the slot instead of just moar damage. Elementals could use a tone down to 60%, and dual stat mods 30%, but still 60% status chance. Heavy Cal needs to be toned down to about 110. Could still use some work, but I'm short on time .

[Prolbo]

This is a good feedback. There is a many right questions & answers. TS say right thing, ofc his vision of problem solving can be not the best, but Questions is right. Problem exist & it should be solved. There is too huge void between top gunpower & base gunpower, between top (read as infinite powered) mobs & base mobs, and too little time when you can enjoy the game : moment between shreddin foes swarms into peaces & discharging full ammo clips into one target with no effect.

Edited April 29, 2015 by Prolbo

[DSpite]

I don't see what the OP idea fixes.

 

ALL Mods, especially damage ones, should be exactly like Heavy Caliber. Pros and Cons. Modding should be a balancing act, and not just a "pick the highest bonus Mods, then add Forma" mini-game.

 

On top of that, Forma allows us to basically Max out all the Mods and STILL fit them all, another thing that should not be possible.

 

If all we had to work with was 60 point guns, with some choice guns containing extra Polarites as a "balancing method" we would be far closer to a better system.

 

Forma helps greatly to breaks guns, not the Mods by themselves. The fact that damage just stacks up as a multiplier from damage Mods - once again with no negatives - does not help either.

 

I'm not saying that the following is a good idea, but of for example, if all Forma did was add extra slots that did not simply allow you to slot a Mod that could contribute to damage, I, personally, would be far happier. My Flux Rifle would contain 4 extra slots, and while still doing exactly the same damage as before Forma, it would finally have more ammo capacity, faster reload, and extra beam distance and a better zoom, in other words, a ton better utility.

 

Damage stacking is something for a game like Dungeon Defenders, same for Enemy scaling. Mods should be meant to build more efficient missions running Frames and weapons, not just better DPS hoses.

Edited April 29, 2015 by DSpite